J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 12:09:06, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>> games. For other uses, computers have had far more power
>> than they need for many years.
>>
> That _would_ be true, if less and less efficient compilers weren't there
> to eat up all the extra power.
>>
> I've heard it said that DOS 3.3 was the last really efficient one.
>
> Not to mention all the extra processor-power-soaking-up features we've
> come to accept - or even expect - over the years^Wdecades.

Compilers aren't wasteful.

Libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries... is wasteful :-)
(dotNET, I'm lookin at you)

Libraries, at least at a single level, make developers more productive.
But at some point, this just gets out of hand. You might have
a Visual Studio runtime, as well as dotNET - are these stacked
or mutually exclusive ? IDK.

Compilers are "so good" in a sense, that if you select -O3,
they will "compile away" parts of the program.

for (i=0; i<10; i++) {
j=3
}
// Now, I don't use j anywhere else in the program

If I use the highest level of optimization, J is effectively
removed from the program entirely. Maybe with -O, I look
at the assembler code, and I see a bogus line that keeps
assigning the value 3, to an item on the local stack called J.
Thus, with -O optimization, the "object code" reflects
the "source code", for better or worse.

When you write code, you have to be aware of the possibility
of aggressive optimization, and write your code in such a way,
that things that should not be optimized away, are not
optimized away. For example, if I do this, I get to keep J :-)
Depending on the optimization process, the compiler could
realize that J need be assigned only once, or could
let it stay in the loop and be assigned ten times like that.

for (i=0; i<10; i++) {
j=3
}
print j

If you unroll code, then peephole optimize it, who knows
what efficiencies might be found (this was a frequency
fantasy in the past, but compilers aren't really good
enough to rewrite your shitty code for you :-) ).

It's an unwritten rule in software, that "what you write,
is supposed to be reflected in what is output as code".
For example, in VHDL logic design, if I do this

i = i + j

this "implies" an ALU (arithmetic logic unit). Or perhaps
a better example, is multiply. If I do this

x = x * 2

it might imply a Booth multiplier. Whereas if I do an
integer left shift (which is integer multiply by 2)

x = x << 1

that implies a register with shifter capability, and the
bits are all marched to the left one place.

The way you state a problem in your source, is a
"hint" to the compiler (your servant) as to what you
expect as a construct for the output. It's generally
not advised for the compiler to go off on an adventure,
size up what you're doing and say things like
"you're so dumb, you could get rid of that multiply
entirely". The compiler is then fighting with you,
in unexpected ways. I've never seen a software that
chooses to turn the design process into a knife fight.
The output always seems to end up "directed" by the
input. And this is probably a reason computers aren't
writing code for us... (yet), the mess that would create
would be like elephant pooh.

Paul

On 24/07/2021 13:28, Rabid Roach wrote:
> On 2021-07-24 4:13 a.m., David Brooks wrote:
>> On 24/07/2021 00:35, Rabid Roach wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-23 6:59 p.m., Chris wrote:
>> [....]
>>> Yeah, it would take someone who _really_ hates Apple to say bad
>>> things about the M1 and the products which use it. No matter how you
>>> slice it, they came out with what will long be regarded as one of the
>>> greatest innovations in mobile computing. People might forget
>>> whatever machine you're in front of at the moment, but they're not
>>> likely to forget how much of an impact the M1 made.
>>
>> Question for you!  Why does your header info start with this line?
>>
>> =
>>
>> Path:
>> hunterbd.eternal-september.org!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx33.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
>
>
> Beats me. I use Blocknews.

Ray Banana has put him in his place!

MID: <m2fsw4c7i3.fsf@raybanana.net>

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| Libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries... is wasteful :-)
| (dotNET, I'm lookin at you)
| | Libraries, at least at a single level, make developers more productive.
| But at some point, this just gets out of hand. You might have
| a Visual Studio runtime, as well as dotNET - are these stacked
| or mutually exclusive ? IDK.
| The C++ runtime and the .Net runtime will be different.
Much of the .Net runtime is simply a wrapper on top of
the Win32 API. The C++ runtime is really a runtime,
housing the C++ functions.

You can look at the .Net libraries to see what
DLLs they load. MS implied that it was a whole new system,
but what they really meant was that it was a whole new
incompatible system that no longer respected the fundamentals
of Win32 API and COM. So it's a world unto itself. A gigantic,
JIT-compiled, Java clone, optimized for Windows in order to
beat Java at its own game -- never intended for Windows
software in the first place.

Remember the Longhorn fiasco? XP came out in 2001, so their
normal 3-year schedule for mass wallet vacuuming dictated that a new
version should come out in 2004. But by 2005, that project,
codenamed "Longhorn", had to be scrapped. .Net was intended to
be a web services system, locked out of the OS core, running
on top of the system as a sandboxed, memory-protected layer.
Longhorn was intended to be a new generation of Windows,
with the "public" layer entirely composed of .Net. A services OS.
The Win32 API would be locked away. A .Net API called WinFX
would replace it. But of course .Net was a massively bloated,
superfluous layer. (It also wasn't safe, but that's another matter.)

By 2005, in the words of MS brass, there was not yet hardware
available that could handle the massive bloat of the new Windows.
The whole thing had to be scrapped and they rushed around to
get Vista out the door so they could get back to vacuuming
wallets -- albeit 3 years behind schedule, since Vista didn't
come out until 2007.

I suppose that Metro, WinRT, and all of that mess have been
vague attempts to get the formula right. For exactly 20 years
now MS have been moving to replace Windows with web services.
(Even longer if you count Active Desktop.) The failure seems to
be mainly that they tried to force it with Windows design, without
taking into account that 1) for many years Internet speeds were
not adequate 2) they didn't really have a product 3) they had no
talent for services. So now they have Metro trinkets with no
business model and virtually no device to use them on.

Bill Gates went around yapping about how you'd be checking
the weather and stocks on your giant SPOT watch, but he
never presented a good reason for all those services. (Only
AppleSeeds were dumb enough to buy such a device, so they
could check to see whether their heart was still beating. :)

On 24/07/2021 13:48, A N Other wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 13:28, Rabid Roach wrote:
>> On 2021-07-24 4:13 a.m., David Brooks wrote:
>>> On 24/07/2021 00:35, Rabid Roach wrote:
>>>> On 2021-07-23 6:59 p.m., Chris wrote:
>>> [....]
>>>> Yeah, it would take someone who _really_ hates Apple to say bad
>>>> things about the M1 and the products which use it. No matter how you
>>>> slice it, they came out with what will long be regarded as one of
>>>> the greatest innovations in mobile computing. People might forget
>>>> whatever machine you're in front of at the moment, but they're not
>>>> likely to forget how much of an impact the M1 made.
>>>
>>> Question for you!  Why does your header info start with this line?
>>>
>>> =
>>>
>>> Path:
>>> hunterbd.eternal-september.org!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx33.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
>>
>>
>>
>> Beats me. I use Blocknews.
>
>
> Ray Banana has put him in his place!

RUBBISH!

On 24/07/2021 11:48, Ray Banana wrote:
> On 10189 September 1993, David Brooks wrote
>
>> Please will you answer the post I made here?
>> Message-ID: <sdgi36$p37$1@hunterbd.eternal-september.org>
>> Thanks if you will.
>
> I will, if you answer two simple questions for me:

Thank you!

> Why would I answer a question directed at another person in a group I
> don't read?

Why? Because I asked, politely, if you would, please, do so.

> Why do you hijack an unrelated thread to post your question?

I've been taught that one should not hold sensible conversations in a
*test* newsgroup!

So, to my mind, it matters not one jot WHERE I ask you the question.
(Said light-heartedly!)

> And a free clue for you:
>
> For me, the Path: header of the article in question starts with
> raybanana.net!![...] whereas the Path: header of the article I am
> replying to reads:
>
> Path:
raybanana.net!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!hunterbd.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
>
> (Please note the double exclamation mark following the first host name).
>
> Please keep in mind that Path: entries are read from right to left,
where the
> leftmost entry is the Path token of the server from which the article
> was retrieved. Please also note that a FQDN registered by a user of E-S
> is used for constructing M-IDs AND Path entries(virtual host).

Thank you for that guidance. It /does/ help.

This is the path I was questioning:-

Path:
hunterbd.eternal-september.org!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx33.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail

I am most interested in where the message BEGAN its journey. I have a
personal subscripion to BlockNews and IIRC my posts from there start in
a similar (same?) manner.

--
Kind regards,
David

On 24/07/2021 15:23, David Brooks wrote:

Then why could you not raise a new topic e-s.support if you believe
there is some kind of issue?

On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 09:13:25, David Brooks <DavidB@no.mail.invalid>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>On 24/07/2021 00:35, Rabid Roach wrote:
>> On 2021-07-23 6:59 p.m., Chris wrote:
>[....]
>> Yeah, it would take someone who _really_ hates Apple to say bad
>>things about the M1 and the products which use it. No matter how you
>>slice it, they came out with what will long be regarded as one of the
>>greatest innovations in mobile computing. People might forget
>>whatever machine you're in front of at the moment, but they're not
>>likely to forget how much of an impact the M1 made.
>
>Question for you! Why does your header info start with this line?
>
>=
>
>Path:
>hunterbd.eternal-september.org!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-s
>eptember.org!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsreader4.netcologne.d
>e!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer
>03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx33.iad.POS
>TED!not-for-mail

Are you talking about "=", or is that just something you've put in as a
separator?

If you're talking about the "Path: " line, that isn't how it left Chris:
it's how that header line of his post looked when it got to you.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

But this can only happen if we replace the urge to blame with the urge to
learn so that it is safe for staff to admit errors and raise concerns without
the fear of being punished.
- Former MI5 boss Eliza Manningham-Buller, RT 2016/5/7-13

On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 08:37:21, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
>J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 12:09:06, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
>>wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> []
>>> games. For other uses, computers have had far more power
>>> than they need for many years.
>>>
>> That _would_ be true, if less and less efficient compilers weren't
>>there to eat up all the extra power.
>>>
>> I've heard it said that DOS 3.3 was the last really efficient one.
>> Not to mention all the extra processor-power-soaking-up features
>>we've come to accept - or even expect - over the years^Wdecades.
>
>Compilers aren't wasteful.

Sorry, I meant code-generators in general. (As you say, a good compiler
_can_ optimise well.) At every stage (possibly _apart_ from the first
one), we've sacrificed efficiency for convenience. It's not always the
fault of those using the tools. HTML generation is very bad; script
templates are worse. VanguardLH's post gives far more, but I know I'm
preaching to the converted in his case anyway (-:

To give an example I've given before (wrong brackets used to avoid
people's newsreaders trying to parse it):
{HTML}{HEAD}{/HEAD}
{BODY}
This is {font color=red}red{/font}.{BR}
This is {font color=yellow}yellow{/font}.
{/BODY}
{/HTML}
Copy those six lines into Notepad, and change the {}s to <>s. Save it as
G6JPG.htm . (Try it in a browser to make sure I've coded it right - I
just typed it on the fly.) Note its size. Load it into Word. Save it
from Word as HTML - let's say bloat.htm . Look at its size! Load it
into Notepad. Be amazed at the code!
>
>Libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries... is wasteful :-)
>(dotNET, I'm lookin at you)
>
>Libraries, at least at a single level, make developers more productive.
>But at some point, this just gets out of hand. You might have

Indeed. Especially when the tools are being used by those who don't know
much about them - I _notice_ it most these days in webpages, but from
the sheer size of them it must be true of other software too. There are
exceptions - IrfanView is probably the widest-known example, being both
small and fast; I suspect Everything is another, based on its speed (and
yes, its size too - I've just looked [using itself to find it!]).
[]
>Compilers are "so good" in a sense, that if you select -O3,
>they will "compile away" parts of the program.
>
> for (i=0; i<10; i++) {
> j=3
> }
> // Now, I don't use j anywhere else in the program
>
>If I use the highest level of optimization, J is effectively
>removed from the program entirely. Maybe with -O, I look
>at the assembler code, and I see a bogus line that keeps
>assigning the value 3, to an item on the local stack called J.
>Thus, with -O optimization, the "object code" reflects
>the "source code", for better or worse.
>
>When you write code, you have to be aware of the possibility
>of aggressive optimization, and write your code in such a way,
>that things that should not be optimized away, are not
>optimized away. For example, if I do this, I get to keep J :-)
>Depending on the optimization process, the compiler could
>realize that J need be assigned only once, or could
>let it stay in the loop and be assigned ten times like that.
>
> for (i=0; i<10; i++) {
> j=3
> }
> print j

Or, if you still don't use j anywhere else,
print 3
(-:
>
>If you unroll code, then peephole optimize it, who knows
>what efficiencies might be found (this was a frequency
>fantasy in the past, but compilers aren't really good
>enough to rewrite your shitty code for you :-) ).
>
>It's an unwritten rule in software, that "what you write,
>is supposed to be reflected in what is output as code".
>For example, in VHDL logic design, if I do this
[]
> x = x * 2
>
>it might imply a Booth multiplier. Whereas if I do an
>integer left shift (which is integer multiply by 2)
>
> x = x << 1
>
>that implies a register with shifter capability, and the
>bits are all marched to the left one place.

VHDL is a very good example. Especially in a collaborative project; in
some ways, it can help if it is ordained that modules of code have
standard interfaces; but if this means that a programmer has to
translate a boolean (single bit) into an integer to output it, and it
connects only to other module(s) whose programmer(s) immediately convert
it back, then a good compiler will remove both those stages, possibly
even producing "code" that will fit into a smaller FPGA. (That's an
arguably silly example - I would _hope_ that an HTML project leader
would not forbid booleans from interface types - but makes the point.)
>
>The way you state a problem in your source, is a
>"hint" to the compiler (your servant) as to what you
>expect as a construct for the output. It's generally
>not advised for the compiler to go off on an adventure,
>size up what you're doing and say things like
>"you're so dumb, you could get rid of that multiply
>entirely". The compiler is then fighting with you,
>in unexpected ways. I've never seen a software that
>chooses to turn the design process into a knife fight.

Though it's handy if it produces a _report_, saying things like (for
your example) "apparent multiply by fixed integer that is a power of 2".

>The output always seems to end up "directed" by the
>input. And this is probably a reason computers aren't
>writing code for us... (yet), the mess that would create
>would be like elephant pooh.

Loading some webpages certainly feels like I'm ploughing through a load
of the same! (And starting _some_ software, ditto.)
>
> Paul
John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

But this can only happen if we replace the urge to blame with the urge to
learn so that it is safe for staff to admit errors and raise concerns without
the fear of being punished.
- Former MI5 boss Eliza Manningham-Buller, RT 2016/5/7-13

On 24/07/2021 10.17, David Brooks wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 08:57, Snit wrote:
>> On Jul 24, 2021 at 12:43:13 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
>> <sdggah$fd1$2@hunterbd.eternal-september.org>:
>>
>>> On 23/07/2021 23:59, Chris wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> [....]
>>>>> And they have millions of gullible users to pay through the nose
>>>>> for it.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing gullible about buying into a better product.
>>>
>>> Agreed! :-D
>>
>> Right. I buy Macs when they serve me best for the least money. When other
>> systems do I buy those.
>
> What hardware have you ever found which is BETTER than an Apple product?

Define "better".

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 24/07/2021 15:55, A N Other wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 15:23, David Brooks wrote:
>
> Then why could you not raise a new topic e-s.support if you believe
> there is some kind of issue?

There is no "e-s.support" newsgroup available on my blocknews.net
newsserver.

Ray Banana can manipulate posts on his own, dedicated, server.

On 24/07/2021 13:28, Rabid Roach wrote:
> On 2021-07-24 4:13 a.m., David Brooks wrote:
>> On 24/07/2021 00:35, Rabid Roach wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-23 6:59 p.m., Chris wrote:
>> [....]
>>> Yeah, it would take someone who _really_ hates Apple to say bad
>>> things about the M1 and the products which use it. No matter how you
>>> slice it, they came out with what will long be regarded as one of the
>>> greatest innovations in mobile computing. People might forget
>>> whatever machine you're in front of at the moment, but they're not
>>> likely to forget how much of an impact the M1 made.
>>
>> Question for you!  Why does your header info start with this line?
>>
>> =
>>
>> Path:
>> hunterbd.eternal-september.org!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx33.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
>
>
> Beats me. I use Blocknews.

I do too! :-D

Here's the path from my most recent post here:-

Path:
hunterbd.eternal-september.org!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.uzoreto.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed9.news.xs4all.nl!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!fx13.ams1.POSTED!not-for-mail

=

It's a bit like yours - the one I queried!

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:24:56 +0100, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:05:26 -0700, AJL wrote:
>
>> Final solution[1]: Using this grill free fan free Chromebook which
>> does what I need most of the time anyway.[2] Aren't technical
>> solutions wonderful...
>
> [1] A phrase best avoided post WW2.

What?

> [2] A laptop that can grill burgers too? Truly a multi-purpose
> device!

My car has a cup holder, does that count?

On 24/07/2021 14:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 24/07/2021 10.17, David Brooks wrote:
>> On 24/07/2021 08:57, Snit wrote:
>>> On Jul 24, 2021 at 12:43:13 AM MST, "David Brooks" wrote
>>> <sdggah$fd1$2@hunterbd.eternal-september.org>:
>>>
>>>> On 23/07/2021 23:59, Chris wrote:
>>>>> Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> [....]
>>>>>> And they have millions of gullible users to pay through the nose
>>>>>> for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nothing gullible about buying into a better product.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed! :-D
>>>
>>> Right. I buy Macs when they serve me best for the least money. When other
>>> systems do I buy those.
>>
>> What hardware have you ever found which is BETTER than an Apple product?
>
> Define "better".

That's hard to define.

Like a Rolls Royce is better than a Ford - will that do? 🤣

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:44:05 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:05:26 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>> Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:52:35 -0400, "Mayayana"
>>> <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>> | Why do laptops take air from underneath which won't work on your
>>>> lap? It should come in one side and out the other.
>>>>
>>>> They're too busy trying to remove another 1 mm of thickness. Side
>>>> ventilation would make it thicker. It might make sense to put
>>>> raised areas on the bottom, but again that adds to thickness.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My Samsung gets air from a side grill. I only gets a bit warm.
>>
>> I generally use my Dell LT with the bottom grill on a cloth surface. I
>> can tell when it gets hot when the fan starts. I used to then sit it on
>> top of my Android tablet (face down) until it cooled off and the fan
>> stopped running. After awhile I said screw it and just let it be hot -
>> sink or swim. So far its been swimming but the fan noise is annoying.
>> Final solution: Using this grill free fan free Chromebook which does
>> what I need most of the time anyway. Aren't technical solutions wonderful...
>
> My Samsung R720 is silent. It's plugged to the AC adapter most of the
> time.

I doubt that makes it run much cooler.

> I should point out that it is rarely used as a mobile because
> I'm not mobile.

I knew a few colleagues who had semi mobiles. They had two sets of everything - monitor, keyboard, mouse, power supply - one at home and one at work. Just carried the laptop with them. Never used it "mobile" but had the same machine in two places, behaving like a desktop.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:07:58 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:51:12 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.06xvnmfgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 00:06:11 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 9:47:06 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.06v3ks1emvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:48:19 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 20/07/2021 17:36, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:50:00 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 20/07/2021 16:42, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why do laptops take air from underneath which won't work on your lap?
>>>>>>>> It should come in one side and out the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Apple M1 MacBook Air which, I bought for Mrs B., does even have a
>>>>>>> fan! ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-air/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless they're worked out how to break the laws of physics, for a
>>>>>> powerful laptop you need to get a lot of heat out of it, so I take it
>>>>>> that's a very slow laptop?
>>>>>
>>>>> You really do need to keep your finger on the pulse, m8! ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Read here:- https://www.tomsguide.com/uk/reviews/macbook-air-2020-m1
>>>>
>>>> No, you tell me. It's either powerful or cool, not both. If they claim both,
>>>> it probably thermally throttles if you work it hard for more than several
>>>> seconds.
>>>
>>> It rarely gets throttled in general use... but it can be if you work it hard
>>> for a few minutes (say a video render).
>>
>> That's enough for me to stop reading and never buy one. Like buying a 150mph
>> car that can only do so for short bursts, it's a damn lie.
>
> They are very clear it has no fan. There is no lie. But if you don't want one
> don't get one.

Might not technically be a lie, but it's still misrepresentation. Look at this powerful OR quiet machine....

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:08:49 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:50:29 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.06xvmfwmmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:19:30 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 9:51:58 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.06v3swrbmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:49:37 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 20, 2021 at 9:36:52 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>> <op.06t8fqy1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:32:09 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2021 at 8:42:30 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>>>> <op.06t5w4hhmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why do laptops take air from underneath which won't work on your lap? It
>>>>>>>> should come in one side and out the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Convection cooling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's forced by the fan.
>>>>>
>>>>> They make use of the convection cooling as well. This means the fan can be
>>>>> smaller and less noisy.
>>>>
>>>> Bollocks, the fan makes no detectable noise when spinning at minimum speed.
>>>
>>> It can run at lower speeds because of the making use of convection cooling.
>>
>> Once it's spinning, convection cannot occur. The air is moving faster than
>> convection.
>
> One force does not stop when another starts, and presumably the fan is not
> running all the time.

Slow fans are not audible by humans.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:13:34 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:49:35 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.06xvkxfymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:18:50 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 9:52:52 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.06v3uejzmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:53:50 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 20, 2021 at 9:36:39 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>> <op.06t8fdosmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:50:00 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 20/07/2021 16:42, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why do laptops take air from underneath which won't work on your lap?
>>>>>>>> It should come in one side and out the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Apple M1 MacBook Air which, I bought for Mrs B., does even have a
>>>>>>> fan! ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-air/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless they're worked out how to break the laws of physics, for a powerful
>>>>>> laptop you need to get a lot of heat out of it, so I take it that's a very
>>>>>> slow laptop?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. It is a very cool CPU.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.tomsguide.com/news/macbook-air-m1-benchmarks-revealed-and-they-destroy-windows-laptops
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course real world comparisons will not perfectly match benchmarks, and
>>>>> there is more to speed than CPU... but overall the M1 chips are amazingly fast
>>>>> for the tiny amounts of power they consume compared to Intel chips.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there's a similar chip for a normal computer. There's no way someone
>>>> has suddenly made them much more efficient, this is a gradual process that's
>>>> been going on for decades.
>>>
>>> Apple has been working on their own chips for a long time -- for the iPhone
>>> and iPads and others. There are other ARM chips and MS has a version of
>>> Windows that runs on them, it sucks.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/OhESSZIXvCA
>>>
>>> The M1 crushes the competition, at least for now.
>>
>> "For now" won't be long.
>
> Maybe. Apple is already using 5nm. Intel says they will get down to 7nm
> sometimes in 2022 or 2023, and they have a history of not meeting their own
> deadlines. AMD says sometimes in 2022. No doubt, though, this has pushed it as
> a priority for them.

Don't believe the 5nm. There are many ways of measuring that.

>> Chip manufacturers are big and powerful, they'll all come up with similar
>> designs. Only technology limits how far they can go.
>
> One of the challenges for MS is they do not make the chip and the OS. Apple
> can make both with the other in mind, so they take better advantage of their
> own hardware than MS can take of other's hardware (though as big as they are I
> am sure Intel and AMD dance to their tune to a large extent).

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:15:23 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:48:29 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.06xvi316mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:38:14 +0100, Prescott Parasite Tracker v1.2
>> <putthesobsnittowork@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:hm_JI.28790$qk6.8957@fx36.iad:
>>>
>>>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 9:59:24 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>> <op.06v35ah9mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:29:21 +0100, Wade Garrett
>>>>> <wade@cooler.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/20/21 3:25 PM, LegionX wrote:
>>>>>>> Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For years, I've used a piece of quarter inch Masonite cut to
>>>>>>>> the exact size of my laptop when forced to rest the device on
>>>>>>>> a soft surface. Works great, weighs next to nothing, just
>>>>>>>> about free.<> That's a well thought out genius life hack
>>>>>>>> before the phrase was
>>>>>>> coined. Kudos to you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I keep several of them around the house in locations where I
>>>>>>>> use my laptop.<> We're going to make a few of these ourselves
>>>>>>>> now. Thanks again for
>>>>>>> the seriously good idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why is it that the people who want more government control
>>>>>>>> over your life are the same ones who want you to be
>>>>>>>> disarmed?<> That's a rhetorical question yea?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regretfully not!
>>>>>
>>>>> The answer is because they're the same thing. The government
>>>>> can't control people who can defend themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question should be, why the fuck would anyone want government
>>>>> control?
>>>>
>>>> I just want a government that has more fair and equal
>>>> representation.
>>>
>>> I just want a government who prosecutes undeserving people taking
>>> advantage of the system and in effect taking government assistance
>>> from those who truly deserve and need it.
>>
>> Easy way to do that, don't have benefits form the government. Benefits should
>> be charity based. All these people voting left wing would surely donate?
>>
>>> These grifters and welface cheats should be prosecuted to the fullest
>>> extent of the law and forced to make restition on every penny they
>>> scammed the government out of.
>>
>> Make them work naked outdoors.
>>
>>> And it's going to begin as Biden is spending money the government
>>> doesn't have. The IRS is already gearing up to begin massive audits
>>> targeting suspected tax cheats.
>>>
>>> Get ready for neighbor to turn on neighbor.
>>> It's happening already.
>>
>> That's why you neanderthals still have guns.
>
> Who is going to pay the government to stop people from having guns? You?

They get the money from the guns. Guns are banned as of 3 months time, hand them all in. The government then recycles/sells those abroad.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:31:07 +0100, Rabid Roach <rabid@roa.ch> wrote:

> On 2021-07-22 11:44 p.m., AJL wrote:
>> Snit wrote:
>>> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:48:29 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>
>>>> That's why you neanderthals still have guns.
>>>
>>> Who is going to pay the government to stop people from having guns?
>>> You?
>>
>> In a US city I lived in around 40 years ago the city council voted to
>> buy guns (all types) from the public and then destroyed them. They had
>> lots of takers. The program lasted for a couple of years as I recall. I
>> don't remember if it did any good at the time but currently the city has
>> the same gun problem as the rest in its size class (6M pop metro).
>
> Buying back guns from lawful owners simply means that when the thugs who
> got them illegally decide to commit crimes, nobody will be able to stop
> them. If your country gives you the right and the ability to defend
> yourself, why the heck would you sacrifice it?

The idea is the thugs are less likely to be able to obtain one (eg. by stealing it from a legal owner).

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:47:45 +0100, pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:

> On 2021-07-23, Rabid Roach <rabid@roa.ch> wrote:
>> On 2021-07-22 11:44 p.m., AJL wrote:
>>> Snit wrote:
>>>> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:48:29 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>
>>>>> That's why you neanderthals still have guns.
>>>>
>>>> Who is going to pay the government to stop people from having guns?
>>>> You?
>>>
>>> In a US city I lived in around 40 years ago the city council voted to
>>> buy guns (all types) from the public and then destroyed them. They had
>>> lots of takers. The program lasted for a couple of years as I recall. I
>>> don't remember if it did any good at the time but currently the city has
>>> the same gun problem as the rest in its size class (6M pop metro).
>>
>> Buying back guns from lawful owners simply means that when the thugs who
>> got them illegally decide to commit crimes, nobody will be able to stop
>> them. If your country gives you the right and the ability to defend
>> yourself, why the heck would you sacrifice it?
>
> Gun control will never work.

It works in the UK.

On 24/07/2021 16:53, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 09:13:25, David Brooks <DavidB@no.mail.invalid>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> On 24/07/2021 00:35, Rabid Roach wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-23 6:59 p.m., Chris wrote:
>> [....]
>>> Yeah, it would take someone who _really_ hates Apple to say bad
>>> things  about the M1 and the products which use it. No matter how you
>>> slice it,  they came out with what will long be regarded as one of
>>> the greatest  innovations in mobile computing. People might forget
>>> whatever machine  you're in front of at the moment, but they're not
>>> likely to forget how  much of an impact the M1 made.
>>
>> Question for you!  Why does your header info start with this line?
>>
>> =
>>
>> Path:
>> hunterbd.eternal-september.org!!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-s
>> eptember.org!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsreader4.netcologne.d
>> e!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer
>> 03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx33.iad.POS
>> TED!not-for-mail
>
> Are you talking about "=", or is that just something you've put in as a
> separator?

I put it there myself as a separator!

> If you're talking about the "Path: " line, that isn't how it left Chris:
> it's how that header line of his post looked when it got to you.

It was from the header of Rabid Roach!

The differences now may be simply that I'm using the Blocknews EU
server, not the one in the USA.

HTH

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:16:43 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:46:50 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
> <op.06xvgchrmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:13:44 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 10:03:30 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.06v4b4ghmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:20:25 +0100, Rabid Roach <rabid@roa.ch> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-07-20 7:27 p.m., Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-07-20 5:47 p.m., Rabid Roach wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-07-20 12:36 p.m., Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:50:00 +0100, David Brooks
>>>>>>>> <DavidB@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 20/07/2021 16:42, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Why do laptops take air from underneath which won't work on your lap?
>>>>>>>>>> It should come in one side and out the other.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Apple M1 MacBook Air which, I bought for Mrs B., does even have a
>>>>>>>>> fan! ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-air/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unless they're worked out how to break the laws of physics, for a
>>>>>>>> powerful laptop you need to get a lot of heat out of it, so I take it
>>>>>>>> that's a very slow laptop?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It actually has the most powerful and power-efficient mobile processor
>>>>>>> on the market. It truly is a marvel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They wasn't so bad i guess till they got run over by an M1A1. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I probably would have bought one when I was in the market for a laptop
>>>>> at the beginning of last month, if gaming weren't something I was even
>>>>> slightly interesting to me. In the end, it made more sense to get a
>>>>> mobile gaming laptop (which is more or less of the same size as the
>>>>> Macbook Pro) with a discrete GPU. This way, I have more than enough
>>>>> power to run all applications and games AND access to the largest
>>>>> library the world has ever seen.
>>>>
>>>> So the Mac mentioned above has no GPU?
>>>
>>> It does -- but it is an integrated one.
>>>
>>>> No wonder it doesn't need a fan. Not really a computer without graphics.
>>>
>>> It has graphics... and in real world use it works very well.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/MtLIE74nl-0
>>
>> No, integrated graphics is a compromise. It'll manage a powerpoint
>> presentation....
>
> Of course it is a compromise -- the world is full of them. With the Macbook
> Air it is designed to be lightweight and have a long battery life, and while
> it fits a lot of needs it is not a gaming machine. But it absolutely does have
> a GPU.

Surely one could be made that has a fan, but is only used if you start gaming on it? Just because a powerful chip is in there, doesn't mean it has to be used all the time. Being able to connect the screen to either the onboard or the GPU would be a good idea.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:27:05 +0100, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 23/07/2021 13.13, Mayayana wrote:
>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | > Of course it is a compromise -- the world is full of them. With the
>> Macbook
>> | > Air it is designed to be lightweight and have a long battery life, and
>> while
>> | > it fits a lot of needs it is not a gaming machine. But it absolutely
>> does have
>> | > a GPU.
>> |
>> | I intentionally buy all my laptops with that kind of graphics. I prefer
>> | long battery life over graphic power.
>> |
>> | And not only my own laptops, but those I buy for other people - unless
>> | when I find out when questioning them on their usage that they are game
>> | players or some other usage that demands powerful graphics.
>> |
>>
>> That's a good point that I don't think most people
>> are even aware of. For many years now, integrated
>> graphics has been plenty of power to run a large monitor
>> with 32-bit color. In that sense, separate graphics cards
>> are outdated technology. Only a small minority of people
>> are trying to run games where 100 soldiers, or 100 naked
>> beauties with realistic, flowing hair, need to be displayed
>> and refreshed at top speed while your avatar kills them or
>> fucks them, respectively.
>
> Another advantage: less weight. Kilograms, I mean. Comes from smaller
> battery, smaller fan, smaller cooling ducts...
>
> I may need instead cpu power and more RAM to run calc sheets or
> multipage+images in word processors.
>
>>
>> It's the difference between a car and a sports car. One
>> is for transportation. The other is for fun or sport. You
>> could drive the sports car for transportation, but it's expensive
>> and your bag of groceries might not even fit in the trunk.
>> Your kids won't fit in the seats. The only thing it's really
>> good for is driving very fast and announcing to others that
>> you have a lot of money. Very, very few people drive sports
>> cars. And it's the same with computers. A computer is for
>> doing work. A gaming machine is for fun. Who uses
>> them? Computer geeks who never grew up and some teenage
>> boys, mostly. But they do account for many of the advances
>> in computer technology, thanks to the fact that teenage boys
>> (and geeky office workers who can't get a date) want their
>> fantasy naked girls to be as realistic as possible.
>
> I just remembered a poker game, in which we had to win the girls to get
> them to undress, in B/W CGA graphics - We had to coach our best poker
> player in our student residence to play it for us :-D

Did you ever play Leisure Suit Larry? That was color EGA! We played it at school.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:32:33 +0100, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote:

> On 2021-07-23 11:09 a.m., Mayayana wrote:
>> "Rabid Roach" <rabid@roa.ch> wrote
>>
>> | Complete garbage.
>>
>> Ah. Well articulated. :)
>>
>> | If a
>> | person outright says that they will never play games, then integrated
>> | graphics are fine but my rule is to make sure that a computer has
>> | something which can at least handle SOME 3D in case that person changes
>> | their mind about playing.
>> |
>>
>> The vast majority are not you or your teenage
>> friends. I have a neice who taught me about GTA.
>> Aside from that, the only people I know who play
>> computer games are solitaire fans. What you're
>> talking about is giving everyone a V8 pickup in case
>> they someday decide to pull a trailer. That possibility
>> is not so farfetched, but it's imposing your priorities on
>> others, so that lots and lots of people pay way too
>> much for a vehicle to buy groceries.
>>
>>
>> | It has nothing to do with realism but everything to do with smooth
>> | playback.
>>
>> Same thing. People spend big money for top-shelf graphics
>> in order to get a flashy, realistic display. And they don't
>> need it for most software. They only need it for fantasy
>> games. For other uses, computers have had far more power
>> than they need for many years.
>>
>>
>
> I play plenty of games from the steam store, Mainly a lot of mods for
> Half-Life and Half-Life 2 and plentyof others, I have at present 81
> games in my Steam library, and they all play fine on my AMD 5 3400G
> Radeon Vega 11 integrated graphics.
>
> Naturally I don't expect it to play the newest greatest high caliber
> games, but I don't play those, Anyway they are too expensive at $70 or $80.

The Steam store is expensive. Piratebay is 100% cheaper.

On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 13:37:21 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 12:09:06, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> []
>>> games. For other uses, computers have had far more power
>>> than they need for many years.
>>>
>> That _would_ be true, if less and less efficient compilers weren't there
>> to eat up all the extra power.
>>>
>> I've heard it said that DOS 3.3 was the last really efficient one.
>>
>> Not to mention all the extra processor-power-soaking-up features we've
>> come to accept - or even expect - over the years^Wdecades.
>
> Compilers aren't wasteful.
>
> Libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries... is wasteful :-)
> (dotNET, I'm lookin at you)
>
> Libraries, at least at a single level, make developers more productive.
> But at some point, this just gets out of hand. You might have
> a Visual Studio runtime, as well as dotNET - are these stacked
> or mutually exclusive ? IDK.
>
> Compilers are "so good" in a sense, that if you select -O3,
> they will "compile away" parts of the program.
>
> for (i=0; i<10; i++) {
> j=3
> }
> // Now, I don't use j anywhere else in the program
>
> If I use the highest level of optimization, J is effectively
> removed from the program entirely. Maybe with -O, I look
> at the assembler code, and I see a bogus line that keeps
> assigning the value 3, to an item on the local stack called J.
> Thus, with -O optimization, the "object code" reflects
> the "source code", for better or worse.
>
> When you write code, you have to be aware of the possibility
> of aggressive optimization, and write your code in such a way,
> that things that should not be optimized away, are not
> optimized away. For example, if I do this, I get to keep J :-)
> Depending on the optimization process, the compiler could
> realize that J need be assigned only once, or could
> let it stay in the loop and be assigned ten times like that.
>
> for (i=0; i<10; i++) {
> j=3
> }
> print j
>
> If you unroll code, then peephole optimize it, who knows
> what efficiencies might be found (this was a frequency
> fantasy in the past, but compilers aren't really good
> enough to rewrite your shitty code for you :-) ).
>
> It's an unwritten rule in software, that "what you write,
> is supposed to be reflected in what is output as code".
> For example, in VHDL logic design, if I do this
>
> i = i + j
>
> this "implies" an ALU (arithmetic logic unit). Or perhaps
> a better example, is multiply. If I do this
>
> x = x * 2
>
> it might imply a Booth multiplier. Whereas if I do an
> integer left shift (which is integer multiply by 2)
>
> x = x << 1
>
> that implies a register with shifter capability, and the
> bits are all marched to the left one place.
>
> The way you state a problem in your source, is a
> "hint" to the compiler (your servant) as to what you
> expect as a construct for the output. It's generally
> not advised for the compiler to go off on an adventure,
> size up what you're doing and say things like
> "you're so dumb, you could get rid of that multiply
> entirely". The compiler is then fighting with you,
> in unexpected ways. I've never seen a software that
> chooses to turn the design process into a knife fight.
> The output always seems to end up "directed" by the
> input. And this is probably a reason computers aren't
> writing code for us... (yet), the mess that would create
> would be like elephant pooh.

Someone is to blame for my 130MB logitech mouse driver. I remember a driver for a mouse doing the same thing that was about 30KB.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 19:08:31 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 23, 2021 at 2:06:39 AM MST, ""Carlos E. R."" wrote
> <vddqshxjc5.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>:
>
>> On 22/07/2021 19.16, Snit wrote:
>>> On Jul 22, 2021 at 8:46:50 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>> <op.06xvgchrmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 20:13:44 +0100, Snit <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 10:03:30 AM MST, ""Commander Kinsey"" wrote
>>>>> <op.06v4b4ghmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:20:25 +0100, Rabid Roach <rabid@roa.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2021-07-20 7:27 p.m., Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-07-20 5:47 p.m., Rabid Roach wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-07-20 12:36 p.m., Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:50:00 +0100, David Brooks
>>>>>>>>>> <DavidB@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/07/2021 16:42, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do laptops take air from underneath which won't work on your lap?
>>>>>>>>>>>> It should come in one side and out the other.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Apple M1 MacBook Air which, I bought for Mrs B., does even have a
>>>>>>>>>>> fan! ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-air/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unless they're worked out how to break the laws of physics, for a
>>>>>>>>>> powerful laptop you need to get a lot of heat out of it, so I take it
>>>>>>>>>> that's a very slow laptop?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It actually has the most powerful and power-efficient mobile processor
>>>>>>>>> on the market. It truly is a marvel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They wasn't so bad i guess till they got run over by an M1A1. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I probably would have bought one when I was in the market for a laptop
>>>>>>> at the beginning of last month, if gaming weren't something I was even
>>>>>>> slightly interesting to me. In the end, it made more sense to get a
>>>>>>> mobile gaming laptop (which is more or less of the same size as the
>>>>>>> Macbook Pro) with a discrete GPU. This way, I have more than enough
>>>>>>> power to run all applications and games AND access to the largest
>>>>>>> library the world has ever seen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the Mac mentioned above has no GPU?
>>>>>
>>>>> It does -- but it is an integrated one.
>>>>>
>>>>>> No wonder it doesn't need a fan. Not really a computer without graphics.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has graphics... and in real world use it works very well.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://youtu.be/MtLIE74nl-0
>>>>
>>>> No, integrated graphics is a compromise. It'll manage a powerpoint
>>>> presentation....
>>>
>>> Of course it is a compromise -- the world is full of them. With the Macbook
>>> Air it is designed to be lightweight and have a long battery life, and while
>>> it fits a lot of needs it is not a gaming machine. But it absolutely does have
>>> a GPU.
>>
>> I intentionally buy all my laptops with that kind of graphics. I prefer
>> long battery life over graphic power.
>
> I think that is true for most. There are exceptions, such as gamers and those
> who do a lot of video editing, but for the general user the extra video
> capabilities do not matter.

Actually they can be used for non-graphics stuff, like the science I used to do, or even for calculating chess positions.