On 8/8/2021 3:06 PM, Paul wrote:
> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>>> > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>>> > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>>>>>> offer).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+
>>>>>> Gold
>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) motherboard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>>>
>>>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>>
>>>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>>>
>>>
>>> Why not? What's the disadvantage?
>>
>> Poorer heat dissipation
>> Harder to work on.
>> only 2 memory slots
>> only 1 M.2 slot
>> only 1 PCIE slot
>> I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.
>
> I like to see two proper x16 slots for video, and not
> because I like SLI or Crossfire. The second slot is
> for "anything-goes toys". If a toy needs a good bus
> connection, you've got one.

So what should I do? Should I stay with the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND
LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard or do you
recommend a different motheboard?

>
> On the other machine, I've put a USB adapter that has
> x2 wiring on an x4 PCB and plugged that into one of
> the x16 slots. I still don't have an external drive
> fast enough to test it. With the kit I've got, I can
> only drive that to 30% of its rating. No good for
> benching.
>
> The reason for using x16 slots or wanting them, is
> so you can plug in a PCIe card with a switch chip
> in future, and reach up two speeds higher. A x16 Rev.3
> slot could be used, with a switch chip, to reach x4 Rev.5
> and test the NVMe that will be coming out in a year or two.
>
> And Rev.5 will be out soon, but expect limitations
> and maybe the usage of redrivers or so. It's hard to
> say how many slots can be PCIe Rev.5. They released
> PCIe Rev.4 spec and PCIe Rev.5 spec, close to the
> same time. I would guess it's going to take companies
> like Asmedia, a bit of time to spin Rev.5 chips.
>
> And the Rev.5 is going to look pretty silly, if the
> motherboard runs out of RAM bandwidth. The wand-waving
> has to stop. Memory cannot necessarily keep up with
> the demands of paper-weight peripherals. Nothing
> says, for a particular generation, that your home
> build is "perfectly balanced", and you might easily
> end up with a PCIe Rev.5 build that only benches
> at PCIe Rev.4 rates.
>
> On the high speed USB, and after the spec was released
> and all, they discovered that mixing two flavors of high
> speed USB on a suitable hub, did not work properly, and
> one peripheral would "starve" the other for bandwidth.
> Such are the travails of releasing hardware without
> having all the materials in hand to check for mistakes
> like that. There's always some test case you forgot to
> run in simulation. Most of the people in this group,
> aren't rich enough to have run into these cases :-)
> I guess that's what keeps USB.org reputation intact,
> is nobody checking on them.
>
> You can't stop progress, but you can smear it
> all over the map. To such an extent, nobody can
> answer questions about it. Are there any USB4 yet ?
> What speed does a USB4 work at ? Who knows...
>
> Another example is running video over Thunderbolt.
> I'm sure everyone here has a Thunderbolt on their
> motherboard, and a chain of dangly items to make
> their monitor work. Am I right ? <snicker>
> Yes, there's progress, but not so you'd notice.
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 12:49 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>
>>>>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>>>>> offer).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+
>>>>> Gold
>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>>
>>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>
>>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>>
>>
>> Why not? What's the disadvantage?
>
> Poorer heat dissipation
> Harder to work on.
> only 2 memory slots
> only 1 M.2 slot
> only 1 PCIE slot
> I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.

OK, thanks

>>>>> I had
>>>>> selected or would it be better to switch to the
>>>>> GIGABYTE Z590I AORUS Ultra (LGA 1200/Intel Z590/Mini-ITX/Dual M.2/PCIe
>>>>> 4.0/USB 3.2 Gen2X2 Type-C/Intel WiFi 6/Intel i225V 2.5GbE/ Gaming
>>>>> Motherboard ($290 at Amazon)
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>>>>> (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel USB 3.2
>>>>> Gen
>>>>> 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)( $190 at Amazon)
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>>>>> (14+2 DrMOS Power Stages,3X M.2, Intel 2.5 Gb LAN, USB 3.2 Front Panel
>>>>> Type-C, Thunderbolt 4, Aura Sync RGB Lighting) ($262 at Amazon)
>>>
>>> For this system I would definitely choose the  ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
>>> 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>>
>>
>> Thanks very much. See Paul's reply to me and mine to him. He apparently
>> thinks there would no advantage to my going to the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
>> 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard. It's $127 more than the
>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel
>> Motherboard I had selected.
>>
>> So please tell why you think I should get the ASUS. If you can convince
>> me that the ASUS is significantly better and can get Paul to agree, I'll
>> spring for the extra $162; otherwise I'll stay with what I had selected.
>>
>> And by the way, looking at pictures of the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
>> 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard on Amazon's web site, I see an
>> HDMI port, but I don't think it has a VGA port. Am I wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> ...or perhaps one of these ASROCK motherboards
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=asrock+z590+intel+motherboard&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or some other one you recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>> Whichever motherboard I select has to support Windows 11, the Intel
>>>>> Core
>>>>> i9-10900 CPU I've selected, the Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance
>>>>> Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 drive, and (unless
>>>>> I get a video card--see number 3 below) my two monitors with  D-Sub
>>>>> connectors (and an HDMI adapter on one of them). I'm not sure whether
>>>>> all of these do.
>>>
>>> I am pretty sure the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX
>>> Motherboard will handle all that with confidence
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *****
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Should I stick with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU
>>>>> Cooler
>>>>> with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm or, as Paul in Houston suggested,
>>>>> would it be better to get a liquid cooler, such as the Cooler Master
>>>>> MasterLiquid ML240 Illusion Close-Loop AIO CPU Liquid Cooler,
>>>>> Translucent Dome, 3rd Gen Dual Chamber Pump, 240 Radiator, Dual MF120
>>>>> Halo for AMD Ryzen/Intel 1200/1151 ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or if you think a different liquid cooler would be better, which one(s)
>>>>> do you recommend?
>>>
>>> Your cooler choice is fine Plenty of cooling power there,, I would Not
>>> go to liquid cooling, you don't need it,  just more hassle and problems.
>>
>>
>> Glad you agree with Paul
>>
>>
>>>>> *****
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Should I stick with on-motherboard video connectors, or would I
>>>>> better off with (even though I don't play computer games) an
>>>>> inexpensive
>>>>> two-monitor video card, such as the VisionTek Radeon 5450 2GB DDR3
>>>>> (DVI-I, HDMI, VGA) Graphics Card - 900861,Black/Red ($65 at Amazon)
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or the MAXSUN GEFORCE GT 710 2GB Video Graphics Card GPU, Support
>>>>> DirectX 12 OpenGl 4.5, Low Profile, Low Consumption, VGA, DVI-D, HDMI,
>>>>> HDCP, Silent Passive Fanless Cooling System ($80 at Amazon)
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or if you think I should get a video card, but neither of these,
>>>>> which inexpensive one do you recommend?
>>>
>>> If your connections work fine for your 2 monitors I would stay with the
>>> Intel UHD630 on chip CPU graphics, They work very well on both machines
>>> here.
>>
>>
>> Great, again same as what Paul said.
>>
>>
>>>>> ...or the EVGA GeForce 210 1024 MB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/HDMI/VGA
>>>>> Graphics Card, 01G-P3-1312-LR ($49 at Amazon)
>>>>>
>>>>> Another choice is a single-monitor video card and also using the
>>>>> motherboard video port if I buy a motherboard with only one. What do
>>>>> you
>>>>> think of that choice, and if it's a good choice, what video card do you
>>>>> recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, if I stay with the on-motherboard video connectors (or even if I
>>>>> buy one of these inexpensive video cards) is there any issue with there
>>>>> being enough RAM to support two 24" monitors at 1920 x 1080?
>>>
>>> Plenty of ram, My on CPU graphics use 2 GB of ram , so no problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *****
>>>>>
>>>>> Once again, I don't mind adding a little to the total cost if it would
>>>>> improve performance or longevity, as long it doesn't go over the $2,000
>>>>>    I had originally budgeted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again.
>>>>>
>
>
> Rene
>
>

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for something
>> else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>
>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>> Intel Motherboard
>>
>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings - PWM
>> Fan - 135 mm
>>
>> and no video card.
>>
>> Am I right?
>>
>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete list of
>> components now is
>>
>> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>> 109.99 Newegg
>>
>> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply
>> (CP-9020180-NA)
>> 144.88 Amazon
>>
>> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>> Micro ATX Intel
>> Motherboard
>> 134.99 Newegg
>>
>> CPU Intel Core
>> i9-10900
>> 389.99 Amazon
>>
>> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
>> Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>> mm 84.9
>> Amazon
>>
>> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
>> 28800) Int Model
>> CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>> 189.98 Amazon
>>
>> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
>> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>> 1.3 394.99
>> Newegg
>>
>> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
>> BLACK - OEM Bulk
>> Drive
>> 21.99 Amazon
>>
>> For a total price of $1,471.71
>>
>> Unless I hear otherwise from you or a better price on something
>> better comes along, that's what I'll go
>> with.
>>
>> Many thanks, once more.
>
> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
> are in control of the feature set.

Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and recommendations.

> I haven't looked at
> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.

If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
choice for me, please recommend it.

> The 590 ones aren't hitting my "attraction" sensor.
>
> As for the objective of running Windows 11, that
> oughta keep them busy for a while, wearing that down :-)
> You'll need lots of Windows Defender scans to slow that
> thing down. It's the browser people I'm worried about :-)
> "A script is slowing down the browser, would you
> like to play Tetris instead?".
>
> I did not check your RAM for height, nor did I verify
> the reviews for the sticks are OK. As far as I know, the
> speed of the RAM selected is consistent with the Intel
> limit on memory defined for B560. (The "policy" is really
> a matter of the CPU and has nothing to do with the B560,
> yet you may notice how the B560 motherboards don't go past 3200
> for RAM.) There were occasions in the past, where individual
> companies discovered hacks to make some of the selectors
> go higher.
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

On 2021-08-08 5:25 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 3:06 PM, Paul wrote:
>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>>>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>>>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had
>>>>>>> to offer).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt,
>>>>>>> 80+ Gold
>>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why not? What's the disadvantage?
>>>
>>> Poorer heat dissipation
>>> Harder to work on.
>>> only 2 memory slots
>>> only 1 M.2 slot
>>> only 1 PCIE slot
>>> I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.
>>
>> I like to see two proper x16 slots for video, and not
>> because I like SLI or Crossfire. The second slot is
>> for "anything-goes toys". If a toy needs a good bus
>> connection, you've got one.
>
>
> So what should I do? Should I stay with the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND
> LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard or do you
> recommend a different motheboard?

In my system right now, Like Paul I have a 2 port USB 3.card, In
another PCIE slot I have an M.2 NVMe carrier card, And I still have a
third one empty for future other toys. So I still recommend the ASUS
Z590 a Prime M/B.
But that's just me.

>
>>
>> On the other machine, I've put a USB adapter that has
>> x2 wiring on an x4 PCB and plugged that into one of
>> the x16 slots. I still don't have an external drive
>> fast enough to test it. With the kit I've got, I can
>> only drive that to 30% of its rating. No good for
>> benching.
>>
>> The reason for using x16 slots or wanting them, is
>> so you can plug in a PCIe card with a switch chip
>> in future, and reach up two speeds higher. A x16 Rev.3
>> slot could be used, with a switch chip, to reach x4 Rev.5
>> and test the NVMe that will be coming out in a year or two.
>>
>> And Rev.5 will be out soon, but expect limitations
>> and maybe the usage of redrivers or so. It's hard to
>> say how many slots can be PCIe Rev.5. They released
>> PCIe Rev.4 spec and PCIe Rev.5 spec, close to the
>> same time. I would guess it's going to take companies
>> like Asmedia, a bit of time to spin Rev.5 chips.
>>
>> And the Rev.5 is going to look pretty silly, if the
>> motherboard runs out of RAM bandwidth. The wand-waving
>> has to stop. Memory cannot necessarily keep up with
>> the demands of paper-weight peripherals. Nothing
>> says, for a particular generation, that your home
>> build is "perfectly balanced", and you might easily
>> end up with a PCIe Rev.5 build that only benches
>> at PCIe Rev.4 rates.
>>
>> On the high speed USB, and after the spec was released
>> and all, they discovered that mixing two flavors of high
>> speed USB on a suitable hub, did not work properly, and
>> one peripheral would "starve" the other for bandwidth.
>> Such are the travails of releasing hardware without
>> having all the materials in hand to check for mistakes
>> like that. There's always some test case you forgot to
>> run in simulation. Most of the people in this group,
>> aren't rich enough to have run into these cases :-)
>> I guess that's what keeps USB.org reputation intact,
>> is nobody checking on them.
>>
>> You can't stop progress, but you can smear it
>> all over the map. To such an extent, nobody can
>> answer questions about it. Are there any USB4 yet ?
>> What speed does a USB4 work at ? Who knows...
>>
>> Another example is running video over Thunderbolt.
>> I'm sure everyone here has a Thunderbolt on their
>> motherboard, and a chain of dangly items to make
>> their monitor work. Am I right ? <snicker>
>> Yes, there's progress, but not so you'd notice.
>>
>>      Paul
>>
>
>

Rene

On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for something
>>> else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>
>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>
>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings - PWM
>>> Fan - 135 mm
>>>
>>> and no video card.
>>>
>>> Am I right?
>>>
>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete list of
>>> components now is
>>>
>>> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>>> 109.99 Newegg
>>>
>>> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply
>>> (CP-9020180-NA)
>>> 144.88 Amazon
>>>
>>> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>>> Micro ATX Intel
>>> Motherboard
>>> 134.99 Newegg
>>>
>>> CPU Intel Core
>>> i9-10900
>>> 389.99 Amazon
>>>
>>> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
>>> Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>> mm 84.9
>>> Amazon
>>>
>>> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
>>> 28800) Int Model
>>> CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>>> 189.98 Amazon
>>>
>>> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
>>> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>> 1.3 394.99
>>> Newegg
>>>
>>> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
>>> BLACK - OEM Bulk
>>> Drive
>>> 21.99 Amazon
>>>
>>> For a total price of $1,471.71
>>>
>>> Unless I hear otherwise from you or a better price on something
>>> better comes along, that's what I'll go
>>> with.
>>>
>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>
>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>> are in control of the feature set.
>
>
>
> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and recommendations.
>
>
>> I haven't looked at
>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>
>
> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
> choice for me, please recommend it.

I've been looking for a full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
success. Do you know of one you can recommend?

Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.

If you think that's a good alternative, please recommend a motherboard
and video card.

Here's a choice of that combination I found:

ASUS Prime H570-PLUS LGA1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe
4.0, 8 Power Stages, HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, Dual M.2, Intel 1Gb LAN,
USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-C, Thunderbolt 4) ($140 on Amazon)

ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI Passive Cooled
Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L) ($70 on Amazon)

That's a total of $210 for the two, instead of the $135 for the ASRock
B560M. It's $75 more, but I'd go for that if you think it would be a
better choice.

Or if you would recommend other motherboard/video card combinations,
please tell me.

Rene, I addressed Paul in this message, but I'd welcome your opinion
here too.

>> The 590 ones aren't hitting my "attraction" sensor.
>>
>> As for the objective of running Windows 11, that
>> oughta keep them busy for a while, wearing that down :-)
>> You'll need lots of Windows Defender scans to slow that
>> thing down. It's the browser people I'm worried about :-)
>> "A script is slowing down the browser, would you
>> like to play Tetris instead?".
>>
>> I did not check your RAM for height, nor did I verify
>> the reviews for the sticks are OK. As far as I know, the
>> speed of the RAM selected is consistent with the Intel
>> limit on memory defined for B560. (The "policy" is really
>> a matter of the CPU and has nothing to do with the B560,
>> yet you may notice how the B560 motherboards don't go past 3200
>> for RAM.) There were occasions in the past, where individual
>> companies discovered hacks to make some of the selectors
>> go higher.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
>

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 4:08 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 5:25 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 3:06 PM, Paul wrote:
>>> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>> On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>>>>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>>>>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had
>>>>>>>> to offer).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt,
>>>>>>>> 80+ Gold
>>>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not? What's the disadvantage?
>>>>
>>>> Poorer heat dissipation
>>>> Harder to work on.
>>>> only 2 memory slots
>>>> only 1 M.2 slot
>>>> only 1 PCIE slot
>>>> I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.
>>>
>>> I like to see two proper x16 slots for video, and not
>>> because I like SLI or Crossfire. The second slot is
>>> for "anything-goes toys". If a toy needs a good bus
>>> connection, you've got one.
>>
>>
>> So what should I do? Should I stay with the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND
>> LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard or do you
>> recommend a different motheboard?
>
> In my system right now, Like Paul I have a 2 port USB 3.card, In
> another PCIE slot I have an M.2 NVMe carrier card, And I still have a
> third one empty for future other toys. So I still recommend the ASUS
> Z590 a Prime M/B.
> But that's just me.

I think that's not a choice for me, since, looking at the pictures of it
on Amazon.com, it appears not to take a VGA connection. See the other
suggestion I just made in this thread. What do you think of that?

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 4:46 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for something
>>>> else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>>
>>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>>
>>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings - PWM
>>>> Fan - 135 mm
>>>>
>>>> and no video card.
>>>>
>>>> Am I right?
>>>>
>>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete list of
>>>> components now is
>>>>
>>>> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>>>> 109.99 Newegg
>>>>
>>>> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply
>>>> (CP-9020180-NA)
>>>> 144.88 Amazon
>>>>
>>>> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>>>> Micro ATX Intel
>>>> Motherboard
>>>> 134.99 Newegg
>>>>
>>>> CPU Intel Core
>>>> i9-10900
>>>> 389.99 Amazon
>>>>
>>>> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
>>>> Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>>> mm 84.9
>>>> Amazon
>>>>
>>>> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
>>>> 28800) Int Model
>>>> CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>>>> 189.98 Amazon
>>>>
>>>> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
>>>> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>>> 1.3 394.99
>>>> Newegg
>>>>
>>>> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
>>>> BLACK - OEM Bulk
>>>> Drive
>>>> 21.99 Amazon
>>>>
>>>> For a total price of $1,471.71
>>>>
>>>> Unless I hear otherwise from you or a better price on something
>>>> better comes along, that's what I'll go
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>>
>>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>>> are in control of the feature set.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and recommendations.
>>
>>
>>> I haven't looked at
>>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>>
>>
>> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
>> choice for me, please recommend it.
>
>
> I've been looking for a full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
> and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
> success. Do you know of one you can recommend?
>
> Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
> HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.
>
>
> If you think that's a good alternative, please recommend a motherboard
> and video card.
>
> Here's a choice of that combination I found:
>
> ASUS Prime H570-PLUS LGA1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe
> 4.0, 8 Power Stages, HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, Dual M.2, Intel 1Gb LAN,
> USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-C, Thunderbolt 4) ($140 on Amazon)
>
> ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI Passive Cooled
> Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L) ($70 on Amazon)

Another $70 video card I just found on Amazon is the Asus GeForce GT 710
2GB GDDR5 HDMI VGA DVI Graphics Card Graphic Cards GT710-SL-2GD5-CSM

Would that be a better choice? I've heard of Asus, but not Zotac.

>
> That's a total of $210 for the two, instead of the $135 for the ASRock
> B560M. It's $75 more, but I'd go for that if you think it would be a
> better choice.
>
> Or if you would recommend other motherboard/video card combinations,
> please tell me.
>
>
> Rene, I addressed Paul in this message, but I'd welcome your opinion
> here too.
>
>
>
>>> The 590 ones aren't hitting my "attraction" sensor.
>>>
>>> As for the objective of running Windows 11, that
>>> oughta keep them busy for a while, wearing that down :-)
>>> You'll need lots of Windows Defender scans to slow that
>>> thing down. It's the browser people I'm worried about :-)
>>> "A script is slowing down the browser, would you
>>> like to play Tetris instead?".
>>>
>>> I did not check your RAM for height, nor did I verify
>>> the reviews for the sticks are OK. As far as I know, the
>>> speed of the RAM selected is consistent with the Intel
>>> limit on memory defined for B560. (The "policy" is really
>>> a matter of the CPU and has nothing to do with the B560,
>>> yet you may notice how the B560 motherboards don't go past 3200
>>> for RAM.) There were occasions in the past, where individual
>>> companies discovered hacks to make some of the selectors
>>> go higher.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
Ken

On 2021-08-08 6:53 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 4:46 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for
>>>>> something else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>>>
>>>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro
>>>>> ATX Intel Motherboard
>>>>>
>>>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings -
>>>>> PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>>>>
>>>>> and no video card.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I right?
>>>>>
>>>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete
>>>>> list of components now is
>>>>>
>>>>> Case    Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99        Newegg
>>>>> Power Supply    Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) 144.88
>>>>> Amazon
>>>>> Motherboard    ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA
>>>>> 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard 134.99        Newegg
>>>>> CPU    Intel Core i9-10900 389.99        Amazon
>>>>> CPU Cooler    be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with
>>>>> Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>>>> mm                                                        84.9 Amazon
>>>>> RAM    CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4
>>>>> (PC4 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98        Amazon
>>>>> M2 Drive    Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid
>>>>> State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>>>> 1.3                                                        394.99
>>>>> Newegg
>>>>> DVD Drive    ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL
>>>>> ATA - BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99        Amazon
>>>>> For a total price of $1,471.71 Unless I hear otherwise from you or
>>>>> a better price on something better     comes along, that's what
>>>>> I'll go with.
>>>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>>>
>>>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>>>> are in control of the feature set.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and
>>> recommendations.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I haven't looked at
>>>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>>>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>>>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
>>> choice for me, please recommend it.
>>
>>
>> I've been looking for a  full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
>> and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
>> success. Do you know of one you can recommend?
>>
>> Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
>> HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.
>>

This is where we must be careful of where we step, You can NOT run
graphics from both the CPU/GPU and a discrete video card at the same
time, As soon as you install the video card it shuts down the CPU/GPU,
so its one or the other but not both at the same time.
So you have to use the onboard HDMI and Displayport with an adapter for
one or install a video card with the VGA and HDMI ports you need.
Your ASUS H570 is a decent M/B but the ZOLTEC GT710 is really the
bottom of the line and may not do justice to your 2 x 24 inch monitors.
Finding a modern M/B with VGA is nearly impossible as was being phased
out by the HDMI and Display-port protocols.

Rene

>>
>> If you think that's a good alternative, please recommend a motherboard
>> and video card.
>>
>> Here's a choice of that combination I found:
>>
>> ASUS Prime H570-PLUS LGA1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe
>> 4.0, 8 Power Stages, HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, Dual M.2, Intel 1Gb LAN,
>> USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-C, Thunderbolt 4) ($140 on Amazon)
>>
>> ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI Passive Cooled
>> Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L) ($70 on Amazon)
>
>
>
> Another $70 video card I just found on Amazon is the Asus GeForce GT 710
> 2GB GDDR5 HDMI VGA DVI Graphics Card Graphic Cards GT710-SL-2GD5-CSM
>
> Would that be a better choice? I've heard of Asus, but not Zotac.
>
>
>>
>> That's a total of $210 for the two, instead of the $135 for the ASRock
>> B560M. It's $75 more, but I'd go for that if you think it would be a
>> better choice.
>>
>> Or if you would recommend other motherboard/video card combinations,
>> please tell me.
>>
>>
>> Rene, I addressed Paul in this message, but I'd welcome your opinion
>> here too.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> The 590 ones aren't hitting my "attraction" sensor.
>>>>
>>>> As for the objective of running Windows 11, that
>>>> oughta keep them busy for a while, wearing that down :-)
>>>> You'll need lots of Windows Defender scans to slow that
>>>> thing down. It's the browser people I'm worried about :-)
>>>> "A script is slowing down the browser, would you
>>>> like to play Tetris instead?".
>>>>
>>>> I did not check your RAM for height, nor did I verify
>>>> the reviews for the sticks are OK. As far as I know, the
>>>> speed of the RAM selected is consistent with the Intel
>>>> limit on memory defined for B560. (The "policy" is really
>>>> a matter of the CPU and has nothing to do with the B560,
>>>> yet you may notice how the B560 motherboards don't go past 3200
>>>> for RAM.) There were occasions in the past, where individual
>>>> companies discovered hacks to make some of the selectors
>>>> go higher.
>>>>
>>>>      Paul
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Ken Blake wrote:

> I think that's not a choice for me, since, looking at the pictures of it
> on Amazon.com, it appears not to take a VGA connection. See the other
> suggestion I just made in this thread. What do you think of that?

Do you have VGA monitors to use with your proposed new system ?

I just use HDMI to VGA and DP to VGA adapters for that.

There might be some connector choices, which are poor
from an adaptation point of view. I don't know if there
are a lot of useful DVI-D adapters out there. But HDMI to VGA,
DP to VGA, DP to HDMI, seem to be covered.

At a guess, the HDMI will be the first monitor, The DP one
will be the second monitor (and use DP to HDMI).

Some motherboards have had three or four monitor connectors,
but the generosity seems to be dropping, as if they decided
even the provision of connectors was too expensive.

I would love to propose a video card to swing the deal,
but there aren't any really good ones. The GTX1050, capable of
encoding certain video formats, it is two slots wide and a waste
of space inside a PC. There are card designs that should really
be single slot, so we can make more neat-and-tidy PCs. Then when
they do bring out stuff, they bring out GT710, and who knows
how many times that silicon has been rebranded. Officially, it's
stopped receiving driver updates, and it's being re-released.
And for Windows 11, we need a GPU that is just starting its
support cycle and will get five or six years of updates.

*******

But to answer your question about the Asrock B560, you look
at the I/O plate connectors, look at the set of expansion
slots, and imagine all the things you might do in future,
and how those hardware items will help. If you've never added
a card to a PC in your life, then it would be hard to imagine
you starting now.

Look at your collection of plug-in peripherals. For example,
about the fastest I've got, is ~300MB/sec USB3. And if I look at the
progression, it doesn't look like the room will be filled with
faster stuff any time soon. For me then, some of those fancy
greater-than-USB3 items would be a waste. But I still like to
see other connectors on there, even if the connectors only
serve to "space out" the valuable connectors. If the high bandwidth
connectors are all next to one another, the USB sticks bump up
shoulder to shoulder and bend and distort the connector. It's
better to have a few of them separated by useless stuff, which
functions as a spacer.

I like to see six SATA ports on a motherboard. Why ?
I have six on this one, and one of the SATA ports failed
so I'm down to five ports, and I need four ports for the
four hard drives currently connected. Some people in the
group here, like or want to see eight SATA ports, for their
own purposes.

You have to look at all these port types, and guesstimate
your future usage pattern, and like storing milk in the fridge,
figure out how much is enough until Tuesday.

A pisser on the Dell Optiplex I've got, is it has a x16 video
card slot, and some x1 slots. I wanted to shove a USB3 card into
the video card slot, and the BIOS wouldn't let me! It said it
only accepts video cards in there. Like it was 1999 again or
something. The Asus or the Asrock would never do a thing like
that. Neither would Gigabyte or MSI.

Paul

On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 14:49:14 -0500, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

>>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>
>>>>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>>>>> offer).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+
>>>>> Gold
>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>>
>>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>
>>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>>
>>
>> Why not? What's the disadvantage?
>
>Poorer heat dissipation
>Harder to work on.
>only 2 memory slots
>only 1 M.2 slot
>only 1 PCIE slot
>I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.

Pretty much the reasons why I've never built a system that uses anything
smaller than a full-size ATX board. I may or may not use the extra
capabilities, but for me it's better to have and not use than to want and
not have. In the latter case, you can sometimes add something external, but
it becomes a hassle. If the case can accommodate a full-size board, that's
what I'd use.

Ken Blake wrote:

> The case and power supply I'm tentatively planning on are
>
> Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>
>    and
>
> Thermaltake Toughpower GF1 850W 80+ Gold SLI/Crossfire Ready Ultra Quiet
> 140mm Hydraulic Bearing Smart Zero Fan Full Modular Power Supply
See if Gamers Nexus have reviewed them ...

On 8/8/2021 5:31 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 6:53 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 4:46 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for
>>>>>> something else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro
>>>>>> ATX Intel Motherboard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings -
>>>>>> PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and no video card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete
>>>>>> list of components now is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Case    Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>>>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99        Newegg
>>>>>> Power Supply    Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) 144.88
>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>> Motherboard    ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA
>>>>>> 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard 134.99        Newegg
>>>>>> CPU    Intel Core i9-10900 389.99        Amazon
>>>>>> CPU Cooler    be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with
>>>>>> Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>>>>> mm                                                        84.9 Amazon
>>>>>> RAM    CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4
>>>>>> (PC4 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98        Amazon
>>>>>> M2 Drive    Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid
>>>>>> State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>>>>> 1.3                                                        394.99
>>>>>> Newegg
>>>>>> DVD Drive    ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL
>>>>>> ATA - BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99        Amazon
>>>>>> For a total price of $1,471.71 Unless I hear otherwise from you or
>>>>>> a better price on something better     comes along, that's what
>>>>>> I'll go with.
>>>>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>>>>> are in control of the feature set.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and
>>>> recommendations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I haven't looked at
>>>>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>>>>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>>>>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
>>>> choice for me, please recommend it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've been looking for a  full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
>>> and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
>>> success. Do you know of one you can recommend?
>>>
>>> Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
>>> HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.
>>>
>
> This is where we must be careful of where we step, You can NOT run
> graphics from both the CPU/GPU and a discrete video card at the same
> time, As soon as you install the video card it shuts down the CPU/GPU,
> so its one or the other but not both at the same time.

Thanks very much. My hardware ignorance is showing again; I didn't know
that.

> So you have to use the onboard HDMI and Displayport with an adapter for
> one or install a video card with the VGA and HDMI ports you need.
> Your ASUS H570 is a decent M/B but the ZOLTEC GT710 is really the
> bottom of the line and may not do justice to your 2 x 24 inch monitors.
> Finding a modern M/B with VGA is nearly impossible

....yes, that's been my experience over the last few days, but...

> as was being phased
> out by the HDMI and Display-port protocols.

....I didn't know the reason.

It looks like I'll have to buy a second HDMI-VGA adapter to use both my
monitors on a modern full-ATX motherboard.

So assuming that I don't get the ASRock because it's a mini-ATX
motherboard, I think my choices are down to

ASUS Prime H570 Plus ($140)

ASUS Prime Z590-M Plus ($175)

ASUS Prime Z590-P ($183)

Asus Prime Z890-V ($175)

Asus Prime Z590-A ($262)

What's the significance of the letters following the Z590? What does
"Plus" mean? What are the differences between all those choices? Which
one do you recommend and why?

Or if you have a different recommendation, please tell me.

Thanks very much again.

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 7:15 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> I think that's not a choice for me, since, looking at the pictures of it
>> on Amazon.com, it appears not to take a VGA connection. See the other
>> suggestion I just made in this thread. What do you think of that?
>
> Do you have VGA monitors to use with your proposed new system ?

They're much more modern than VGA, but the connectors are VGA (aka D-Sub)

> I just use HDMI to VGA and DP to VGA adapters for that.

As I said earlier, I use an HDMI adapter for one of the monitors, and
the VGA connector for the other. I suppose if if I get that motherboard,
I could buy a second adapter, but I wanted to avoid that.

>
> There might be some connector choices, which are poor
> from an adaptation point of view. I don't know if there
> are a lot of useful DVI-D adapters out there. But HDMI to VGA,
> DP to VGA, DP to HDMI, seem to be covered.
>
> At a guess, the HDMI will be the first monitor, The DP one
> will be the second monitor (and use DP to HDMI).
>
> Some motherboards have had three or four monitor connectors,
> but the generosity seems to be dropping, as if they decided
> even the provision of connectors was too expensive.
>
> I would love to propose a video card to swing the deal,
> but there aren't any really good ones. The GTX1050, capable of
> encoding certain video formats, it is two slots wide and a waste
> of space inside a PC. There are card designs that should really
> be single slot, so we can make more neat-and-tidy PCs. Then when
> they do bring out stuff, they bring out GT710, and who knows
> how many times that silicon has been rebranded. Officially, it's
> stopped receiving driver updates, and it's being re-released.
> And for Windows 11, we need a GPU that is just starting its
> support cycle and will get five or six years of updates.
>
> *******
>
> But to answer your question about the Asrock B560, you look
> at the I/O plate connectors, look at the set of expansion
> slots, and imagine all the things you might do in future,
> and how those hardware items will help. If you've never added
> a card to a PC in your life, then it would be hard to imagine
> you starting now.

I've been using PCs since 1987 and owned many different ones since that
first one. I've added several cards over the years, but nothing major
and not often.

>
> Look at your collection of plug-in peripherals. For example,
> about the fastest I've got, is ~300MB/sec USB3. And if I look at the
> progression, it doesn't look like the room will be filled with
> faster stuff any time soon. For me then, some of those fancy
> greater-than-USB3 items would be a waste. But I still like to
> see other connectors on there, even if the connectors only
> serve to "space out" the valuable connectors. If the high bandwidth
> connectors are all next to one another, the USB sticks bump up
> shoulder to shoulder and bend and distort the connector. It's
> better to have a few of them separated by useless stuff, which
> functions as a spacer.
>
> I like to see six SATA ports on a motherboard. Why ?
> I have six on this one, and one of the SATA ports failed
> so I'm down to five ports, and I need four ports for the
> four hard drives currently connected. Some people in the
> group here, like or want to see eight SATA ports, for their
> own purposes.
>
> You have to look at all these port types, and guesstimate
> your future usage pattern, and like storing milk in the fridge,
> figure out how much is enough until Tuesday.

Here's a list of the peripherals I have plugged in

Keyboard
Mouse
Speakers
Printer
Scanner
Modem
Router
External Drive (plugged into a USB port only when I'm doing a full
\documents backup).
Thumb Drive (plugged into a USB port only when I do a Quicken backup).

I can't think of any other peripherals I'm likely to add.

What follows are the same questions I just asked Rene. I'd like your
opinion too.

*******

It looks like I'll have to buy a second HDMI-VGA adapter to use both my
monitors on a modern full-ATX motherboard.

So assuming that I don't get the ASRock because it's a mini-ATX
motherboard, I think my choices are down to

ASUS Prime H570 Plus ($140)

ASUS Prime Z590-M Plus ($175)

ASUS Prime Z590-P ($183)

Asus Prime Z890-V ($175)

Asus Prime Z590-A ($262)

What's the significance of the letters following the Z590? What does
"Plus" mean? What are the differences between all those choices? Which
one do you recommend and why?

Or if you have a different recommendation, please tell me.

Thanks very much again.

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 8:20 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 14:49:14 -0500, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>
>
>>>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>>>>>> offer).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+
>>>>>> Gold
>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>>>
>>>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>>
>>>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>>>
>>>
>>> Why not? What's the disadvantage?
>>
>>Poorer heat dissipation
>>Harder to work on.
>>only 2 memory slots
>>only 1 M.2 slot
>>only 1 PCIE slot
>>I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.
>
> Pretty much the reasons why I've never built a system that uses anything
> smaller than a full-size ATX board.

I'm getting convinced that that's what I should do.

> I may or may not use the extra
> capabilities, but for me it's better to have and not use than to want and
> not have.

For me too. That's why I'm planning on getting more RAM And more disk
space than I need now.

> In the latter case, you can sometimes add something external, but
> it becomes a hassle. If the case can accommodate a full-size board, that's
> what I'd use.

It does. If it didn't accommodate it, I could choose a different case.

--
Ken

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 6:53 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 4:46 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for
>>>>>> something else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro
>>>>>> ATX Intel Motherboard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings -
>>>>>> PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and no video card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete
>>>>>> list of components now is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>>>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99 Newegg
>>>>>> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)
>>>>>> 144.88 Amazon
>>>>>> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA
>>>>>> 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard 134.99 Newegg
>>>>>> CPU Intel Core i9-10900 389.99 Amazon
>>>>>> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with
>>>>>> Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>>>>> mm 84.9 Amazon
>>>>>> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4
>>>>>> (PC4 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98 Amazon
>>>>>> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid
>>>>>> State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>>>>> 1.3 394.99
>>>>>> Newegg
>>>>>> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL
>>>>>> ATA - BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99 Amazon
>>>>>> For a total price of $1,471.71 Unless I hear otherwise from you or
>>>>>> a better price on something better comes along, that's what
>>>>>> I'll go with.
>>>>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>>>>> are in control of the feature set.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and
>>>> recommendations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I haven't looked at
>>>>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>>>>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>>>>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
>>>> choice for me, please recommend it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've been looking for a full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
>>> and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
>>> success. Do you know of one you can recommend?
>>>
>>> Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
>>> HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.
>>>
>
> This is where we must be careful of where we step, You can NOT run
> graphics from both the CPU/GPU and a discrete video card at the same
> time, As soon as you install the video card it shuts down the CPU/GPU,
> so its one or the other but not both at the same time.
> So you have to use the onboard HDMI and Displayport with an adapter for
> one or install a video card with the VGA and HDMI ports you need.
> Your ASUS H570 is a decent M/B but the ZOLTEC GT710 is really the
> bottom of the line and may not do justice to your 2 x 24 inch monitors.
> Finding a modern M/B with VGA is nearly impossible as was being phased
> out by the HDMI and Display-port protocols.
>
> Rene
>
>
>>>
>>> If you think that's a good alternative, please recommend a motherboard
>>> and video card.
>>>
>>> Here's a choice of that combination I found:
>>>
>>> ASUS Prime H570-PLUS LGA1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe
>>> 4.0, 8 Power Stages, HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, Dual M.2, Intel 1Gb LAN,
>>> USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-C, Thunderbolt 4) ($140 on Amazon)
>>>
>>> ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI Passive Cooled
>>> Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L) ($70 on Amazon)
>>
>>
>>
>> Another $70 video card I just found on Amazon is the Asus GeForce GT
>> 710 2GB GDDR5 HDMI VGA DVI Graphics Card Graphic Cards GT710-SL-2GD5-CSM
>>
>> Would that be a better choice? I've heard of Asus, but not Zotac.

Zotac is fine. My 1080 is by Zotac, and I bought their one because
the card is a "shorty" and does not bump into the drive bay. It
has two fans instead of three fans.

The problem with GT710, is driver support. The official driver support
period is already up. This means when Windows 11 is officially
launched, sure, there will be at least one driver to run it, but,
like my HD6450 back in 2015, don't expect a stream of drivers after
that, as Windows 11 changes. There have been a lot of WDDM revisions
since Windows 10 started, and they're not going to stop doing that.

MSI Z590-A PRO LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $170
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144392?Item=N82E16813144392

12+2+1 power
HDMI+DP
2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, 4x500MBS + 1x1000MBS front
16+1+4+1 PCIe wiring
3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
PS2+2USB for keybd/mouse
2x3 audio stack no tricks

ASRock Z590 STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $170
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813157975?Item=N82E16813157975

Like the MSI, only slightly weaker I/O

ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $190
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813119372?Item=N82E16813119372

Same I/O as ASRock, only 2x3-1 audio stack

MSI Z590 PRO WIFI LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $200
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144391?Item=N82E16813144391

Same as top MSI item, paying $30 for a Wifi module and connectors

GIGABYTE B560 AORUS PRO AX LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $200
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813145275?Item=N82E16813145275

I/O Plate in order (cheaper Gigabyte Mobos rejected for that)
16+4+4 PCIe wiring
Foxconn CPU socket (two options are Foxconn and Lotes, Lotes typ favored)

ASRock Z590 EXTREME LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $228
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813157982?Item=N82E16813157982

16+1+4+1+1 PCIe wiring (i.e. one extra PCIe socket)

I was going to toss in a $300 one to cap off, but it didn't
have two video connectors, only one. It had a ton of USB
connectors though, and no PS/2 and no USB2. The Newegg selector
didn't seem to filter out the items I did not want.

Doing these is a lot like trying on shoes. After a
while, you can't feel your toes any more and have
stopped being able to tell whether they fit or not :-)

The MSI at the top, is the cheapest Z590 MSI makes (apparently).
And it has most of what you could reasonably expect.

*******

Back to the cooler for the moment. You could leave the smaller
fan on, and put the two DIMMs in the further-out slots -D-D
but maybe that is still not enough for easy DIMM removal.

https://www.bequiet.com/en/cpucooler/1378

Checking the fit with respect to the VCore heatsink
over the I/O stacks, I think that fits. Some cooler
mfg include their "eng drawing" with dimensions so
you can have another source of info. Using an eyeball
to check these, isn't the best way to do it.

It almost looks like the Dark Force is using 15mm thick
fans instead of 25mm, or perhaps the middle one is 15mm
and the outside fan is 25mm. In any case, they're not bog-standard
square ones. (That is why, when I broke the CoolerMaster
fan, I was able to swap in a case cooler 120x120x25 in its place.
Because the fans involved, were both standard designs.)

Paul

On 8/9/2021 9:34 AM, Paul wrote:
> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-08-08 6:53 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 4:46 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for
>>>>>>> something else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro
>>>>>>> ATX Intel Motherboard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings -
>>>>>>> PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and no video card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete
>>>>>>> list of components now is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>>>>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99 Newegg
>>>>>>> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)
>>>>>>> 144.88 Amazon
>>>>>>> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA
>>>>>>> 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard 134.99 Newegg
>>>>>>> CPU Intel Core i9-10900 389.99 Amazon
>>>>>>> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with
>>>>>>> Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>>>>>> mm 84.9 Amazon
>>>>>>> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4
>>>>>>> (PC4 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98 Amazon
>>>>>>> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid
>>>>>>> State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>>>>>> 1.3 394.99
>>>>>>> Newegg
>>>>>>> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL
>>>>>>> ATA - BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99 Amazon
>>>>>>> For a total price of $1,471.71 Unless I hear otherwise from you or
>>>>>>> a better price on something better comes along, that's what
>>>>>>> I'll go with.
>>>>>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>>>>>> are in control of the feature set.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and
>>>>> recommendations.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't looked at
>>>>>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>>>>>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>>>>>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
>>>>> choice for me, please recommend it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've been looking for a full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
>>>> and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
>>>> success. Do you know of one you can recommend?
>>>>
>>>> Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
>>>> HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.
>>>>
>>
>> This is where we must be careful of where we step, You can NOT run
>> graphics from both the CPU/GPU and a discrete video card at the same
>> time, As soon as you install the video card it shuts down the CPU/GPU,
>> so its one or the other but not both at the same time.
>> So you have to use the onboard HDMI and Displayport with an adapter for
>> one or install a video card with the VGA and HDMI ports you need.
>> Your ASUS H570 is a decent M/B but the ZOLTEC GT710 is really the
>> bottom of the line and may not do justice to your 2 x 24 inch monitors.
>> Finding a modern M/B with VGA is nearly impossible as was being phased
>> out by the HDMI and Display-port protocols.
>>
>> Rene
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> If you think that's a good alternative, please recommend a motherboard
>>>> and video card.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a choice of that combination I found:
>>>>
>>>> ASUS Prime H570-PLUS LGA1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe
>>>> 4.0, 8 Power Stages, HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, Dual M.2, Intel 1Gb LAN,
>>>> USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-C, Thunderbolt 4) ($140 on Amazon)
>>>>
>>>> ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI Passive Cooled
>>>> Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L) ($70 on Amazon)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Another $70 video card I just found on Amazon is the Asus GeForce GT
>>> 710 2GB GDDR5 HDMI VGA DVI Graphics Card Graphic Cards GT710-SL-2GD5-CSM
>>>
>>> Would that be a better choice? I've heard of Asus, but not Zotac.
>
> Zotac is fine. My 1080 is by Zotac, and I bought their one because
> the card is a "shorty" and does not bump into the drive bay. It
> has two fans instead of three fans.
>
> The problem with GT710, is driver support. The official driver support
> period is already up. This means when Windows 11 is officially
> launched, sure, there will be at least one driver to run it, but,
> like my HD6450 back in 2015, don't expect a stream of drivers after
> that, as Windows 11 changes. There have been a lot of WDDM revisions
> since Windows 10 started, and they're not going to stop doing that.
>
> MSI Z590-A PRO LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $170
> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144392?Item=N82E16813144392
>
> 12+2+1 power
> HDMI+DP
> 2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, 4x500MBS + 1x1000MBS front
> 16+1+4+1 PCIe wiring
> 3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
> PS2+2USB for keybd/mouse
> 2x3 audio stack no tricks

So if I understand you correctly, you think this would be a better
choice for me than the ASUS H570 or one of the ASUS Z590s. Am I right?
Can you explain why?

Am I right that the MSI motherboard above has one HDMI port and one DP
port? If so, can I just buy a VGA to DP adapter instead of the second
VGA0HDMI adapter I was planning on? Will that be just as good?

Or do you think I'd be better off with the ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3
PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics
Card (ZT-71302-20L) ($70 on Amazon) instead? If so, can you tell me why?

Unless you recommend against it, I think I'm leaning toward the Zotac
videocard, since it has one VGA port and I wouldn't have to rely on
adapters for both monitors. It also support three monitors and perhaps
some day I might want to add a third one.

> The MSI at the top, is the cheapest Z590 MSI makes (apparently).
> And it has most of what you could reasonably expect.
>
> *******
>
> Back to the cooler for the moment. You could leave the smaller
> fan on, and put the two DIMMs in the further-out slots -D-D
> but maybe that is still not enough for easy DIMM removal.
>
> https://www.bequiet.com/en/cpucooler/1378
>
> Checking the fit with respect to the VCore heatsink
> over the I/O stacks, I think that fits. Some cooler
> mfg include their "eng drawing" with dimensions so
> you can have another source of info. Using an eyeball
> to check these, isn't the best way to do it.
>
> It almost looks like the Dark Force is using 15mm thick
> fans instead of 25mm, or perhaps the middle one is 15mm
> and the outside fan is 25mm. In any case, they're not bog-standard
> square ones. (That is why, when I broke the CoolerMaster
> fan, I was able to swap in a case cooler 120x120x25 in its place.
> Because the fans involved, were both standard designs.)

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 5:31 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-08-08 6:53 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 4:46 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for
>>>>>>> something else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>>>>>>> Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings -
>>>>>>> PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and no video card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete
>>>>>>> list of components now is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>>>>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99 Newegg
>>>>>>> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)
>>>>>>> 144.88 Amazon
>>>>>>> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA
>>>>>>> 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard 134.99 Newegg
>>>>>>> CPU Intel Core i9-10900 389.99 Amazon
>>>>>>> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with
>>>>>>> Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>>>>>> mm 84.9
>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4
>>>>>>> (PC4 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98 Amazon
>>>>>>> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid
>>>>>>> State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>>>>>> 1.3 394.99
>>>>>>> Newegg
>>>>>>> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner -
>>>>>>> SERIAL ATA - BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99 Amazon
>>>>>>> For a total price of $1,471.71 Unless I hear otherwise from you
>>>>>>> or a better price on something better comes along, that's
>>>>>>> what I'll go with.
>>>>>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>>>>>> are in control of the feature set.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and
>>>>> recommendations.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't looked at
>>>>>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>>>>>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>>>>>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
>>>>> choice for me, please recommend it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've been looking for a full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
>>>> and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
>>>> success. Do you know of one you can recommend?
>>>>
>>>> Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
>>>> HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.
>>>>
>>
>> This is where we must be careful of where we step, You can NOT run
>> graphics from both the CPU/GPU and a discrete video card at the same
>> time, As soon as you install the video card it shuts down the CPU/GPU,
>> so its one or the other but not both at the same time.
>
>
> Thanks very much. My hardware ignorance is showing again; I didn't know
> that.
>
>
>> So you have to use the onboard HDMI and Displayport with an adapter for
>> one or install a video card with the VGA and HDMI ports you need.
>> Your ASUS H570 is a decent M/B but the ZOLTEC GT710 is really the
>> bottom of the line and may not do justice to your 2 x 24 inch monitors.
>> Finding a modern M/B with VGA is nearly impossible
>
>
> ...yes, that's been my experience over the last few days, but...
>
>
>> as was being phased
>> out by the HDMI and Display-port protocols.
>
> ...I didn't know the reason.
>
> It looks like I'll have to buy a second HDMI-VGA adapter to use both my
> monitors on a modern full-ATX motherboard.
>
> So assuming that I don't get the ASRock because it's a mini-ATX
> motherboard, I think my choices are down to
>
>
> ASUS Prime H570 Plus ($140)
>
> ASUS Prime Z590-M Plus ($175)
>
> ASUS Prime Z590-P ($183)
>
> Asus Prime Z890-V ($175)
>
> Asus Prime Z590-A ($262)
>
> What's the significance of the letters following the Z590? What does
> "Plus" mean? What are the differences between all those choices? Which
> one do you recommend and why?
>
> Or if you have a different recommendation, please tell me.
>
> Thanks very much again.

The -V would have been video at one time, implying
Northbridge GPU. In this case, it is a 590 board with
HDMI and DP connectors. So at least the "V" got us two
connectors :-)

The P used to stand for things like P35, which is
a Northbridge without a GPU.

The A could stand for wifi AX module, but other than that,
it is just a letter of the alphabet. AMD has A for APU, but this
is an Intel board so that's not it. The A in this case, does not
come with Wifi in the box.

The P and A don't seem to have a purpose, really.

The M is microATX 9.6"x9.6". Note that the "width" dimension
on motherboards, is a function of purchase price. A 7" wide board
is dumpster material. They gradually become wider, until the
third column of holes appears and you can bolt down the motherboard
properly. So whether we're talking 12x9.6 or 9.6x9.6, the trailing
width number could be as low as 7.0 and as high as 9.6. When it
gets close to full width, you get nine mounting holes instead of
six mounting holes. An unsupported board on the right hand edge,
bends when you insert RAM.

Sometimes, a pink pencil eraser or two, strategically placed, may
function as support for insertion, while extraction is via the
RAM levers.

Some RAM slots have two levers. Some RAM slots have only one lever,
and the lever on the video card side is missing. That's because, to
work a lever which is pressed up against the back of the video card
is not possible. DIMM slots moved away from the video card a bit, the
lever there would work, so they use a two-lever DIMM slot. While the
one lever slots work, there will be occasional cursing and swearing
during maintenance operations.

The reason for worrying about RAM access, is RAM needs to be tested
yearly for failures (memtest). Sometimes, to isolate to the nearest
stick, the config needs to be modified. And that's when your cooler
choice that doesn't allow the RAM to be removed is a BIG problem.
In a car, the equivalent is needing to lift the engine block to
change the fourth spark plug.

*******

There are three flavors of Thunderbolt.

1) "Thunderbolt Header"

Unfortunately, this is a sham offering. It really has nothing to
do with Thunderbolt and should be ignored. The pins in fact, are
GPIO logic pins, for switching things on and off. Like a set of
light switches. The cable from this, goes to a proprietary board
which is not for sale. The Proprietary $$$ board has a Thunderbolt
chip on it. The board plugs into a PCIe x4 or wider slot. The board
may have miniDP connectors on the faceplate, for looping miniDP from
your NVidia video card, through Thunderbolt.

The proprietary board has not been "certified" yet, by Intel.

But the header itself is trash, and is a mechanism to ensure the
Asus option card is only used on an Asus motherboard. It's a lock and
key connector, for proving authentic usage (Asus optional with Asus board).

On 8/9/2021 10:32 AM, Paul wrote:

Thanks again for all the info below, but me let ask my other questions
again:

So if I understand you correctly, you think this [MSI Z590-A PRO LGA
1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX] would be a better choice for me than the
ASUS H570 or one of the ASUS Z590s. Am I right? Can you explain why?

Am I right that the MSI motherboard above has one HDMI port and one DP
port? If so, can I just buy a VGA to DP adapter instead of the second
VGA0HDMI adapter I was planning on? Will that be just as good?

Or do you think I'd be better off with the ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3
PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics
Card (ZT-71302-20L) ($70 on Amazon) instead? If so, can you tell me why?

Unless you recommend against it, I think I'm leaning toward the Zotac
videocard, since it has one VGA port and I wouldn't have to rely on
adapters for both monitors. It also support three monitors and perhaps
some day I might want to add a third one.

Do you think I'd be better off with a different cooler? What do you
recommend? There are several choices below; is one them a better choice
than the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler I had selected"?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=intel+i910900+cpu+cooler&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

Unless you say otherwise, I think I'm going to go with the MSI
motherboard above, the Zotac video card, and either the be quiet! 250W
TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm or
some other cooler if you think I should switch.

So here's the newly revised complete list (pending a different cooler
suggestion or a different motherboard you suggest):

Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99 Newegg or Amazon at 109.37

Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified,
Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) 144.88 Amazon

Motherboard MSI Z590-A PRO ProSeries Motherboard (ATX, 11th/10th Gen
Intel Core, LGA 1200 Socket, DDR4, PCIe 4, M.2 Slots, USB 3.2 Gen 2,
2.5G LAN, DP/HDMI) 169.99 Amazon

CPU Intel Core i9-10900 389.99 Amazon

CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm 84.9 Amazon

RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4 28800)
Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98 Amazon

M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State Drive
SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 394.99 Newegg

DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99 Amazon

Video Card ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI
Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card
(ZT-71302-20L) 69.76 Amazon

Total 1574.52

> Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 5:31 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-08 6:53 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 4:46 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:30 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/8/2021 3:22 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for
>>>>>>>> something else comes along, you think I should stick with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>>>>>>>> Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings -
>>>>>>>> PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and no video card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am I right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete
>>>>>>>> list of components now is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>>>>>>>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99 Newegg
>>>>>>>> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>>>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)
>>>>>>>> 144.88 Amazon
>>>>>>>> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA
>>>>>>>> 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard 134.99 Newegg
>>>>>>>> CPU Intel Core i9-10900 389.99 Amazon
>>>>>>>> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with
>>>>>>>> Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135
>>>>>>>> mm 84.9
>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4
>>>>>>>> (PC4 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98 Amazon
>>>>>>>> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid
>>>>>>>> State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
>>>>>>>> 1.3 394.99
>>>>>>>> Newegg
>>>>>>>> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner -
>>>>>>>> SERIAL ATA - BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99 Amazon
>>>>>>>> For a total price of $1,471.71 Unless I hear otherwise from you
>>>>>>>> or a better price on something better comes along, that's
>>>>>>>> what I'll go with.
>>>>>>>> Many thanks, once more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
>>>>>>> are in control of the feature set.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I'm in control, but I greatly respect your views and
>>>>>> recommendations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I haven't looked at
>>>>>>> all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
>>>>>>> But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
>>>>>>> You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think there's one for about $50 more that would be a better
>>>>>> choice for me, please recommend it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been looking for a full ATX Intel 1200 motherboard that has PCIe4
>>>>> and two monitor port (either two VGA or VGA and HDMI) and having no
>>>>> success. Do you know of one you can recommend?
>>>>>
>>>>> Alternatively I could get a full-ATX motherboard with PCIe4 and just an
>>>>> HDMI or VGA port and an inexpensive video card with a VGA port.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> This is where we must be careful of where we step, You can NOT run
>>> graphics from both the CPU/GPU and a discrete video card at the same
>>> time, As soon as you install the video card it shuts down the CPU/GPU,
>>> so its one or the other but not both at the same time.
>>
>>
>> Thanks very much. My hardware ignorance is showing again; I didn't know
>> that.
>>
>>
>>> So you have to use the onboard HDMI and Displayport with an adapter for
>>> one or install a video card with the VGA and HDMI ports you need.
>>> Your ASUS H570 is a decent M/B but the ZOLTEC GT710 is really the
>>> bottom of the line and may not do justice to your 2 x 24 inch monitors.
>>> Finding a modern M/B with VGA is nearly impossible
>>
>>
>> ...yes, that's been my experience over the last few days, but...
>>
>>
>>> as was being phased
>>> out by the HDMI and Display-port protocols.
>>
>> ...I didn't know the reason.
>>
>> It looks like I'll have to buy a second HDMI-VGA adapter to use both my
>> monitors on a modern full-ATX motherboard.
>>
>> So assuming that I don't get the ASRock because it's a mini-ATX
>> motherboard, I think my choices are down to
>>
>>
>> ASUS Prime H570 Plus ($140)
>>
>> ASUS Prime Z590-M Plus ($175)
>>
>> ASUS Prime Z590-P ($183)
>>
>> Asus Prime Z890-V ($175)
>>
>> Asus Prime Z590-A ($262)
>>
>> What's the significance of the letters following the Z590? What does
>> "Plus" mean? What are the differences between all those choices? Which
>> one do you recommend and why?
>>
>> Or if you have a different recommendation, please tell me.
>>
>> Thanks very much again.
>
> The -V would have been video at one time, implying
> Northbridge GPU. In this case, it is a 590 board with
> HDMI and DP connectors. So at least the "V" got us two
> connectors :-)
>
> The P used to stand for things like P35, which is
> a Northbridge without a GPU.
>
> The A could stand for wifi AX module, but other than that,
> it is just a letter of the alphabet. AMD has A for APU, but this
> is an Intel board so that's not it. The A in this case, does not
> come with Wifi in the box.
>
> The P and A don't seem to have a purpose, really.
>
> The M is microATX 9.6"x9.6". Note that the "width" dimension
> on motherboards, is a function of purchase price. A 7" wide board
> is dumpster material. They gradually become wider, until the
> third column of holes appears and you can bolt down the motherboard
> properly. So whether we're talking 12x9.6 or 9.6x9.6, the trailing
> width number could be as low as 7.0 and as high as 9.6. When it
> gets close to full width, you get nine mounting holes instead of
> six mounting holes. An unsupported board on the right hand edge,
> bends when you insert RAM.
>
> Sometimes, a pink pencil eraser or two, strategically placed, may
> function as support for insertion, while extraction is via the
> RAM levers.
>
> Some RAM slots have two levers. Some RAM slots have only one lever,
> and the lever on the video card side is missing. That's because, to
> work a lever which is pressed up against the back of the video card
> is not possible. DIMM slots moved away from the video card a bit, the
> lever there would work, so they use a two-lever DIMM slot. While the
> one lever slots work, there will be occasional cursing and swearing
> during maintenance operations.
>
> The reason for worrying about RAM access, is RAM needs to be tested
> yearly for failures (memtest). Sometimes, to isolate to the nearest
> stick, the config needs to be modified. And that's when your cooler
> choice that doesn't allow the RAM to be removed is a BIG problem.
> In a car, the equivalent is needing to lift the engine block to
> change the fourth spark plug.
>
> *******
>
> There are three flavors of Thunderbolt.
>
> 1) "Thunderbolt Header"
>
> Unfortunately, this is a sham offering. It really has nothing to
> do with Thunderbolt and should be ignored. The pins in fact, are
> GPIO logic pins, for switching things on and off. Like a set of
> light switches. The cable from this, goes to a proprietary board
> which is not for sale. The Proprietary $$$ board has a Thunderbolt
> chip on it. The board plugs into a PCIe x4 or wider slot. The board
> may have miniDP connectors on the faceplate, for looping miniDP from
> your NVidia video card, through Thunderbolt.
>
> The proprietary board has not been "certified" yet, by Intel.
>
> But the header itself is trash, and is a mechanism to ensure the
> Asus option card is only used on an Asus motherboard. It's a lock and
> key connector, for proving authentic usage (Asus optional with Asus board).
>
> 2) "Thunderbolr"
>
> This gives high rate data transfer, for that Apple RAID array you used
> to have plugged to your Apple box.
>
> 3) "Thunderbolt with miniDP per TB channel"
>
> Could be two miniDP with two Thunderbolt connectors, for loop through.
> This would be the full-featured implementation, with a Maple Ridge
> on the motherboard.
>
> Paul
>

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/9/2021 10:32 AM, Paul wrote:
>
>
> Thanks again for all the info below, but me let ask my other questions
> again:
>
> So if I understand you correctly, you think this [MSI Z590-A PRO LGA
> 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX] would be a better choice for me than the
> ASUS H570 or one of the ASUS Z590s. Am I right? Can you explain why?

I tried to find a board with a mix of connectors plus an expansion
capability. (Even if none of the boards are as expandable as the boards
we used to get in the past.)

MSI Z590-A PRO LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $170
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144392?Item=N82E16813144392

12+2+1 power
PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS + 1x1000MBS front]
Intel 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
16+1+4+1 PCIe wiring
3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
2x3 audio stack no tricks Realtek ALC897
6 SATA, but interacts with M.2 installation/usage (shared wires presumably)

ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $190
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813119372?Item=N82E16813119372

10+1 DrMOS power
PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS + 1x1000MBS front]
RealTek 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
16+4+1+1 PCIe wiring
3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
2x3-1 audio stack
4 SATA (implied in that, might still see one port interact with M.2 usage)

But I did find one review for the MSI one, saying the BIOS is not
fit for consumption. I guess that puts an end to that then :-/

I suppose in a sense, they use the same set of choices on the PCH
as one another. And one ended up priced at the moment, $20 cheaper
than the other. But a broken BIOS is not good, on the MSI.
With so many positive reviews, I simply assumed the users had
been in the BIOS at least once on the MSI.

I stand by the statement, that it takes a month to make
a product selection. That's how long it takes to slog through
seemingly trivial materials until you find a bombshell somewhere.
You can't rush the process -- unless you like surprises and your
retailer just loves your returns. My local store has had to modify
their return policy a couple of times, because it was
too generous.

>
> Video Card ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI
> Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card
> (ZT-71302-20L)
> 69.76 Amazon

The problem with this is drivers. Driver support should stop.
Even though the manufacturers re-released this on their own,
that doesn't mean that NVidia agrees with their logic. There
can be no shirking on the support policy. NVidia and AMD cut
off old cards, and that's it. You hope there will be a
Windows 11 driver, but you don't really know whether they
will bother.

The card I bought for example (a Zotac), has only one Windows 7 driver,
as Windows 7 support was sliding out of view at the time. It
has had a ton of Windows 10 drivers. The drivers are provided by
NVidia, not Zotac. The driver policy is determined by NVidia.

I don't consider something GT1300 class to be a good deal,
as it has no video encoder/decoder. The GTX1500 is the lowest
SKU with video acceleration. The GT710 is likely to be the
only one with a VGA on it. Cards of that class, usually
have three connectors, each connector a different standard.
Even the GTX1500 won't have driver support for that much
longer. It would be very likely to get at least one
Windows 11 driver. It's a two slot card, and not cheap.
The latest generations of cards, they start at higher
performance levels, have lots of fans, and so on. With prices
to match. We're squeezed between Microsoft driver habits
(new WDDM all the time) versus support by manufacturer.

With NVidia, HDMI should be used for the monitor with the
Start menu button, you can use DP to VGA for any secondary
monitor. I learned this by first hand experience, as occasionally
the driver would pick the HDMI to drive out at startup, and
I would be greeted with a black screen via DP. Once I put the main
monitor on the HDMI, both I and the video card saw eye to eye
on working conditions. I don't know why it does this, so this
is just a warning as to what manipulation of cabling and
adapters may be necessary for stability during startup choices.
For the Intel, I doubt Intel would copy such a feature. But
it remains to be said though, that DP are considered to be
"secondary" connectors from an enumeration standpoint.

HDMI \
DVI \___ How a high end video card enumerates stuff
/ The number of DPs is a function of the product
DP,DP,DP,DP / pricing. The first two connectors are in a kind
of legacy or preferred status, even though the
stupid connector sensors can tell exactly which
ports have no monitor on them. For example, mon on DP,
no cable on HDMI, it'll drive out on HDMI!
This is wrong wrong wrong! Why have sensors ?

Paul

Ken Blake wrote:

> Do you think I'd be better off with a different cooler? What do you
> recommend? There are several choices below; is one them a better choice
> than the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler I had selected"
>
> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=intel+i910900+cpu+cooler&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

There's a Noctua one in the LGA1200 list, but
it's just as heavy as the Dark Force one and big too.

I have a Noctua, and it takes up the entire
inside of the case. I work the RAM levers with
a stick of wood (heat sink in the way). And I can't remember
what toolage trick I used the last time, to get the ATX12V
connector out. I used some tool with an extended nose,
to work the latch.

Your board, needs a 2x4 connector at a minimum. Some of
the boards come with 2x2 + 2x4 (twelve pins total), which is
144+(2*144) max watts. Using the 2x4 alone is (2*144W)
or 288W max, sufficient for 224W during the 28 second
turbo activity. The turbo needs 2x4, if it didn't
turbo, a single 2x2 would be more than sufficient :-)

And that Noctua was the only other candidate. There were
quite a few weird ones, like super-low-profile ones for
1U rack mounts. There didn't seem to be the usual depth
of product.

Noctua NH-U14S 140mm $80

https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-u14s/p/N82E16835608041

Newegg put this in my list, but LGA1200 is not
in its supported CPU list. This is probably as big as
the Dark Force. Weight 2.91 pounds, or about 0.7 pounds
past a reasonable limit. That's why I put support legs
under mine :-)

Noctua NH-D15 SSO2 D-Type $100

https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-d15/p/N82E16835608045

"Easy-to-install SecuFirm2 multi-socket mounting system
for Intel LGA1150, LGA1151, LGA1155, LGA1156, LGA2011,
LGA2066 & AMD AM2(+), AM3(+) FM1, FM2(+), AM4"

They're still selling the Hyper 212. Four heat pipes. $45
But I wouldn't use this - look at the base plate.

https://www.newegg.com/cooler-master-hyper-212-rgb-black-edition-rr-212s-20pc-r1/p/N82E16835103277

There are some pictures of the U14S here.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup/2

The Dark Rock Pro 3 here is 0.1126 C/W and the Noctua
U14S is 0.1151 C/W, so the same. If you pump 200W into it,
the temperature rise is 200W * 0.11C/W or 22C above case air temp.
For example, room 25C, case 35C, CPU 35+22 = 57C. That's why
having theta_R values is useful, for being able to predict results.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup/7

If you have PWM control enabled, the PWM fan on these coolers
can slow right down and be quiet. I just run mine full speed,
as I don't like PWM control particularly (distracting fan
modulation noises). Fans here run at a fixed speed - then
if I hear a fan "warbling", I know the bearings are gone.

Paul

On 8/9/2021 2:55 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/9/2021 10:32 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks again for all the info below, but me let ask my other questions
>> again:
>>
>> So if I understand you correctly, you think this [MSI Z590-A PRO LGA
>> 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX] would be a better choice for me than the
>> ASUS H570 or one of the ASUS Z590s. Am I right? Can you explain why?
>
> I tried to find a board with a mix of connectors plus an expansion
> capability. (Even if none of the boards are as expandable as the boards
> we used to get in the past.)
>
> MSI Z590-A PRO LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $170
> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144392?Item=N82E16813144392
>
> 12+2+1 power
> PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
> 2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS + 1x1000MBS front]
> Intel 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
> 16+1+4+1 PCIe wiring
> 3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
> 2x3 audio stack no tricks Realtek ALC897
> 6 SATA, but interacts with M.2 installation/usage (shared wires presumably)
>
> ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX $190
> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813119372?Item=N82E16813119372
>
> 10+1 DrMOS power
> PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
> 2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS + 1x1000MBS front]
> RealTek 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
> 16+4+1+1 PCIe wiring
> 3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
> 2x3-1 audio stack
> 4 SATA (implied in that, might still see one port interact with M.2 usage)
>
> But I did find one review for the MSI one, saying the BIOS is not
> fit for consumption. I guess that puts an end to that then :-/
>
> I suppose in a sense, they use the same set of choices on the PCH
> as one another. And one ended up priced at the moment, $20 cheaper
> than the other. But a broken BIOS is not good, on the MSI.
> With so many positive reviews, I simply assumed the users had
> been in the BIOS at least once on the MSI.

So are you saying the ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s
ATX $190 is a better choice than the MSI? I don't mind spending an
extra $20 for it (and $190 is its Newegg price; it's $180 on Amazon).

> I stand by the statement, that it takes a month to make
> a product selection. That's how long it takes to slog through
> seemingly trivial materials until you find a bombshell somewhere.

Again, my problem is that I don't know enough about hardware to
recognize a bombshell if I see one. That's why I was looking for your
(and Rene's) recommendations. You both know *much* more than I do.

> You can't rush the process -- unless you like surprises and your
> retailer just loves your returns.

I expect to buy everything from either Amazon or Newegg.

> My local store has had to modify
> their return policy a couple of times, because it was
> too generous.

I understand your point, but again I don't know enough about hardware to
make a choice by myself. I know you know a lot and that's why I wanted
your recommendations.

I expect to buy the components sometime around the middle of September,
so I had hoped to have all the choices made within the next few days.

>
>>
>> Video Card ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI
>> Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card
>> (ZT-71302-20L)
>> 69.76 Amazon
>
> The problem with this is drivers. Driver support should stop.
> Even though the manufacturers re-released this on their own,
> that doesn't mean that NVidia agrees with their logic. There
> can be no shirking on the support policy. NVidia and AMD cut
> off old cards, and that's it. You hope there will be a
> Windows 11 driver, but you don't really know whether they
> will bother.

So can you recommend a different inexpensive video card instead?

> The card I bought for example (a Zotac), has only one Windows 7 driver,
> as Windows 7 support was sliding out of view at the time. It
> has had a ton of Windows 10 drivers. The drivers are provided by
> NVidia, not Zotac. The driver policy is determined by NVidia.
>
> I don't consider something GT1300 class to be a good deal,
> as it has no video encoder/decoder. The GTX1500 is the lowest
> SKU with video acceleration. The GT710 is likely to be the
> only one with a VGA on it. Cards of that class, usually
> have three connectors, each connector a different standard.
> Even the GTX1500 won't have driver support for that much
> longer. It would be very likely to get at least one
> Windows 11 driver. It's a two slot card, and not cheap.
> The latest generations of cards, they start at higher
> performance levels, have lots of fans, and so on. With prices
> to match. We're squeezed between Microsoft driver habits
> (new WDDM all the time) versus support by manufacturer.
>
> With NVidia, HDMI should be used for the monitor with the
> Start menu button, you can use DP to VGA for any secondary
> monitor. I learned this by first hand experience, as occasionally
> the driver would pick the HDMI to drive out at startup, and
> I would be greeted with a black screen via DP. Once I put the main
> monitor on the HDMI, both I and the video card saw eye to eye
> on working conditions. I don't know why it does this, so this
> is just a warning as to what manipulation of cabling and
> adapters may be necessary for stability during startup choices.
> For the Intel, I doubt Intel would copy such a feature. But
> it remains to be said though, that DP are considered to be
> "secondary" connectors from an enumeration standpoint.
>
> HDMI \
> DVI \___ How a high end video card enumerates stuff
> / The number of DPs is a function of the product
> DP,DP,DP,DP / pricing. The first two connectors are in a kind
> of legacy or preferred status, even though the
> stupid connector sensors can tell exactly which
> ports have no monitor on them. For example, mon on DP,
> no cable on HDMI, it'll drive out on HDMI!
> This is wrong wrong wrong! Why have sensors ?
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

On 8/9/2021 3:31 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Do you think I'd be better off with a different cooler? What do you
>> recommend? There are several choices below; is one them a better choice
>> than the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler I had selected"
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=intel+i910900+cpu+cooler&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
>
> There's a Noctua one in the LGA1200 list, but
> it's just as heavy as the Dark Force one and big too.
>
> I have a Noctua, and it takes up the entire
> inside of the case. I work the RAM levers with
> a stick of wood (heat sink in the way). And I can't remember
> what toolage trick I used the last time, to get the ATX12V
> connector out. I used some tool with an extended nose,
> to work the latch.
>
> Your board, needs a 2x4 connector at a minimum. Some of
> the boards come with 2x2 + 2x4 (twelve pins total), which is
> 144+(2*144) max watts. Using the 2x4 alone is (2*144W)
> or 288W max, sufficient for 224W during the 28 second
> turbo activity. The turbo needs 2x4, if it didn't
> turbo, a single 2x2 would be more than sufficient :-

Sorry, I understand next to nothing about that. Are there choices of
types of connectors and number of connectors? What's the significance of
that?

> And that Noctua was the only other candidate. There were
> quite a few weird ones, like super-low-profile ones for
> 1U rack mounts. There didn't seem to be the usual depth
> of product.
>
> Noctua NH-U14S 140mm $80
>
> https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-u14s/p/N82E16835608041
>
> Newegg put this in my list, but LGA1200 is not
> in its supported CPU list. This is probably as big as
> the Dark Force. Weight 2.91 pounds, or about 0.7 pounds
> past a reasonable limit. That's why I put support legs
> under mine :-)
>
> Noctua NH-D15 SSO2 D-Type $100
>
> https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-d15/p/N82E16835608045
>
> "Easy-to-install SecuFirm2 multi-socket mounting system
> for Intel LGA1150, LGA1151, LGA1155, LGA1156, LGA2011,
> LGA2066 & AMD AM2(+), AM3(+) FM1, FM2(+), AM4"
>
> They're still selling the Hyper 212. Four heat pipes. $45
> But I wouldn't use this - look at the base plate.

I don't know what a base plate is, nor what its significance is. Again,
please understand that I know a fair amount about software but very
little about hardware.

So should I stay with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm ?

>
> https://www.newegg.com/cooler-master-hyper-212-rgb-black-edition-rr-212s-20pc-r1/p/N82E16835103277
>
> There are some pictures of the U14S here.
>
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup/2
>
> The Dark Rock Pro 3 here is 0.1126 C/W and the Noctua
> U14S is 0.1151 C/W, so the same. If you pump 200W into it,
> the temperature rise is 200W * 0.11C/W or 22C above case air temp.
> For example, room 25C, case 35C, CPU 35+22 = 57C. That's why
> having theta_R values is useful, for being able to predict results.
>
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup/7
>
> If you have PWM control enabled, the PWM fan on these coolers
> can slow right down and be quiet. I just run mine full speed,
> as I don't like PWM control particularly (distracting fan
> modulation noises). Fans here run at a fixed speed - then
> if I hear a fan "warbling", I know the bearings are gone.
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

On 8/9/2021 3:31 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Do you think I'd be better off with a different cooler? What do you
>> recommend? There are several choices below; is one them a better choice
>> than the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler I had selected"
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=intel+i910900+cpu+cooler&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
>
> There's a Noctua one in the LGA1200 list, but
> it's just as heavy as the Dark Force one and big too.
>
> I have a Noctua, and it takes up the entire
> inside of the case. I work the RAM levers with
> a stick of wood (heat sink in the way). And I can't remember
> what toolage trick I used the last time, to get the ATX12V
> connector out. I used some tool with an extended nose,
> to work the latch.
>
> Your board, needs a 2x4 connector at a minimum. Some of
> the boards come with 2x2 + 2x4 (twelve pins total), which is
> 144+(2*144) max watts. Using the 2x4 alone is (2*144W)
> or 288W max, sufficient for 224W during the 28 second
> turbo activity. The turbo needs 2x4, if it didn't
> turbo, a single 2x2 would be more than sufficient :-

Sorry, I understand next to nothing about that. Are there choices of
types of connectors and number of connectors? What's the significance of
that?

> And that Noctua was the only other candidate. There were
> quite a few weird ones, like super-low-profile ones for
> 1U rack mounts. There didn't seem to be the usual depth
> of product.
>
> Noctua NH-U14S 140mm $80
>
> https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-u14s/p/N82E16835608041
>
> Newegg put this in my list, but LGA1200 is not
> in its supported CPU list. This is probably as big as
> the Dark Force. Weight 2.91 pounds, or about 0.7 pounds
> past a reasonable limit. That's why I put support legs
> under mine :-)
>
> Noctua NH-D15 SSO2 D-Type $100
>
> https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-d15/p/N82E16835608045
>
> "Easy-to-install SecuFirm2 multi-socket mounting system
> for Intel LGA1150, LGA1151, LGA1155, LGA1156, LGA2011,
> LGA2066 & AMD AM2(+), AM3(+) FM1, FM2(+), AM4"
>
> They're still selling the Hyper 212. Four heat pipes. $45
> But I wouldn't use this - look at the base plate.

I don't know what a base plate is, nor what its significance is. Again,
please understand that I know a fair amount about software but very
little about hardware.

So should I stay with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm ?

>
>
https://www.newegg.com/cooler-master-hyper-212-rgb-black-edition-rr-212s-20pc-r1/p/N82E16835103277
>
> There are some pictures of the U14S here.
>
>
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup/2
>
> The Dark Rock Pro 3 here is 0.1126 C/W and the Noctua
> U14S is 0.1151 C/W, so the same. If you pump 200W into it,
> the temperature rise is 200W * 0.11C/W or 22C above case air temp.
> For example, room 25C, case 35C, CPU 35+22 = 57C. That's why
> having theta_R values is useful, for being able to predict results.
>
>
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11407/140-mm-slim-tower-cpu-cooler-roundup/7
>
> If you have PWM control enabled, the PWM fan on these coolers
> can slow right down and be quiet. I just run mine full speed,
> as I don't like PWM control particularly (distracting fan
> modulation noises). Fans here run at a fixed speed - then
> if I hear a fan "warbling", I know the bearings are gone.
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

On 2021-08-09 4:55 p.m., Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/9/2021 10:32 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks again for all the info below, but me let ask my other questions
>> again:
>>
>> So if I understand you correctly, you think this [MSI Z590-A PRO LGA
>> 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX] would be a better choice for me than
>> the ASUS H570 or one of the ASUS Z590s. Am I right? Can you explain why?
>
> I tried to find a board with a mix of connectors plus an expansion
> capability. (Even if none of the boards are as expandable as the boards
> we used to get in the past.)
>
> MSI Z590-A PRO LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX  $170
> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144392?Item=N82E16813144392
>
>    12+2+1 power
>    PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
>    2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS +
> 1x1000MBS front]
>    Intel 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
>    16+1+4+1 PCIe wiring
>    3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
>    2x3 audio stack no tricks Realtek ALC897
>    6 SATA, but interacts with M.2 installation/usage (shared wires
> presumably)
>
> ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX  $190
> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813119372?Item=N82E16813119372
>
>    10+1 DrMOS power
>    PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
>    2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS +
> 1x1000MBS front]
>    RealTek 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
>    16+4+1+1 PCIe wiring
>    3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
>    2x3-1 audio stack
>    4 SATA (implied in that, might still see one port interact with M.2
> usage)
>
> But I did find one review for the MSI one, saying the BIOS is not
> fit for consumption. I guess that puts an end to that then :-/
>
> I suppose in a sense, they use the same set of choices on the PCH
> as one another. And one ended up priced at the moment, $20 cheaper
> than the other. But a broken BIOS is not good, on the MSI.
> With so many positive reviews, I simply assumed the users had
> been in the BIOS at least once on the MSI.
>
> I stand by the statement, that it takes a month to make
> a product selection. That's how long it takes to slog through
> seemingly trivial materials until you find a bombshell somewhere.
> You can't rush the process -- unless you like surprises and your
> retailer just loves your returns. My local store has had to modify
> their return policy a couple of times, because it was
> too generous.
>
>>
>> Video Card    ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI
>> Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L)
>> 69.76        Amazon
>
> The problem with this is drivers. Driver support should stop.
> Even though the manufacturers re-released this on their own,
> that doesn't mean that NVidia agrees with their logic. There
> can be no shirking on the support policy. NVidia and AMD cut
> off old cards, and that's it. You hope there will be a
> Windows 11 driver, but you don't really know whether they
> will bother.
>
> The card I bought for example (a Zotac), has only one Windows 7 driver,
> as Windows 7 support was sliding out of view at the time. It
> has had a ton of Windows 10 drivers. The drivers are provided by
> NVidia, not Zotac. The driver policy is determined by NVidia.
>
> I don't consider something GT1300 class to be a good deal,
> as it has no video encoder/decoder. The GTX1500 is the lowest
> SKU with video acceleration. The GT710 is likely to be the
> only one with a VGA on it. Cards of that class, usually
> have three connectors, each connector a different standard.
> Even the GTX1500 won't have driver support for that much
> longer. It would be very likely to get at least one
> Windows 11 driver. It's a two slot card, and not cheap.
> The latest generations of cards, they start at higher
> performance levels, have lots of fans, and so on. With prices
> to match. We're squeezed between Microsoft driver habits
> (new WDDM all the time) versus support by manufacturer.
>
> With NVidia, HDMI should be used for the monitor with the
> Start menu button, you can use DP to VGA for any secondary
> monitor. I learned this by first hand experience, as occasionally
> the driver would pick the HDMI to drive out at startup, and
> I would be greeted with a black screen via DP. Once I put the main
> monitor on the HDMI, both I and the video card saw eye to eye
> on working conditions. I don't know why it does this, so this
> is just a warning as to what manipulation of cabling and
> adapters may be necessary for stability during startup choices.
> For the Intel, I doubt Intel would copy such a feature. But
> it remains to be said though, that DP are considered to be
> "secondary" connectors from an enumeration standpoint.
>
>     HDMI        \
>     DVI          \___ How a high end video card enumerates stuff
>                  /    The number of DPs is a function of the product
>     DP,DP,DP,DP /     pricing. The first two connectors are in a kind
>                       of legacy or preferred status, even though the
>                       stupid connector sensors can tell exactly which
>                       ports have no monitor on them. For example, mon
> on DP,
>                       no cable on HDMI, it'll drive out on HDMI!
>                       This is wrong wrong wrong! Why have sensors ?
>
>    Paul

As UEFI's are a bit of a quagmire, one review with negative Bios
ratings may not be significant, Until I read and reread the manual on
both my ASUS m/bs I was lost, now it's no problem and I can navigate in
there without too much anguish.
The MSI Z590 A PRO looks like a hell of a fine deal to me at the price.
I would not hesitate to use it, its a toss up with the Asus PRIME Z590-P

But I would still deep six the ZOLTEC 710 idea and go withe the Intel
UDH630 onboard graphics and 2 adapter cables.

Rene

Rene Lamontagne wrote:

> As UEFI's are a bit of a quagmire, one review with negative Bios
> ratings may not be significant, Until I read and reread the manual on
> both my ASUS m/bs I was lost, now it's no problem and I can navigate in
> there without too much anguish.
> The MSI Z590 A PRO looks like a hell of a fine deal to me at the price.
> I would not hesitate to use it, its a toss up with the Asus PRIME Z590-P
>
> But I would still deep six the ZOLTEC 710 idea and go withe the Intel
> UDH630 onboard graphics and 2 adapter cables.
>
> Rene

One of the problems with using Newegg or Amazon reviews, is
"veracity". You need a pretty large number of samples, and
just the right kinds of entries, to dial this stuff in.

It's like when I want to buy a USB stick, and there's no listed
value for the speed of the stick. I'll go through a hundred
reviews like:

"The stick has a nice black plastic on the outside"

"It matches the doilies on my coffee table"

and finally I'll see a posting "R=200MB/sec, W=30MB/sec" and
I have my answer. Sometimes, I will read one of those postings,
and discover the person doesn't know how to bench, and even
though they list numbers, they're wrong.

And that's why proper vetting for this sort of hardware
purchase takes time. Occasionally, you get a nice review
on an enthusiast site, that saves time. But if there aren't
any particularly thorough reviews, then it's off to the
Newegg lists and filtering the content.

Paul