T wrote:
> On 8/7/21 7:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> I have a 9-year old Acer Aspire X3990; good workhorse, Win10, very
>> reliable until recently;
>> https://www.manualslib.com/download/232907/Acer-Aspire-X3990.html
>>
>> It suddenly started freezing; and no messages to help in the Win Logs,
>> just mentions after reboot that there had been an unexpected shutdown.
>> I finally narrowed it down to hardware fault, and then overheating.
>> The max. temp is 72.6 C; and mine was hovering above that. I took the
>> side panel off and it's run just fine for two days, still rather hot,
>> though.
>> There was remarkably little dust in it, and the fans are working fine.
>>
>> As it's suddenly hit this problem (no recent hardware changes), I want
>> to clean the heatsink-fan assembly and CPU top. Google tells me I'll
>> need an air-duster, alcohol wipes and thermal paste.
>>
>> I'd appreciate comments on my above, and advice from people who've
>> done this.
>>
>> Ed
>
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> As your CPU fan starts to lose effeciency (gets
> clogged), it will get louder as it runs faster
> to try to achieve the same cooling effect (unless
> you have a really old motherboard).  I have had
> some that sound like an airplane.
>
> All I do is to blow out the fan (and any dust in
> the cabinet whilst I have the case open).
>
> YOU MUST !!!!! capture the blades on a fan before
> blowing it out.  If you don't and the blades twirl,
> it will become a reverse generator and will damage
> things.
>
> Also, with all fans, spin the blades with your fingers.
>
> 1) They should spin freely, and
>
> 2) when the stop, they should bobble (caught between
> the poles).
>
> If either of the above do not happen, replace the fan.
>
> HTH,
> -T
>

The fan is noiseless and passes your two tests. I guess the second is
for bearings.

Does "capture the blades on a fan" mean hold it?

Ed

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 at 16:34:50, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>I see that this motherboard has one HDMI port and one DisplayPort. Be sure
>to plan accordingly since you want to drive both of your existing monitors.
>
>[snip]
>
>>No graphics card, since I don't play computer games and the
>>motherboard's graphics support should be OK for my two monitors.
>
>[snip]
>
>
Also note that, these days, the GPU is actually inside the CPU - the
"motherboard's graphics" can consist only of the wiring and connectors
(and maybe some buffering) - so make sure you get a CPU that contains
the GPU! On the whole most do - the ones that don't have a letter on the
end of the part number - I _think_ it's F, but do check.

Applies to Intel. I don't know about AMD (or any other).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Grief generates a huge energy in you and it's better for everybody if you
harness it to do something. - Judi Dench, RT 2015/2/28-3/6

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 at 16:33:58, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>The monitors are identical and they have have the same
>cable/connectors. The current Asrock motherboard has two sockets, one
>D-Sub (I think) and one HDMI (I think). One of the monitor cables uses
>an adaptor to connect to the HDMI port. Or is what I think is HDMI
>actually a Display Port?
>
>Pardon my ignorance. As I said, I'm far from being a hardware expert,
>and I know very little about this stuff.
>
>
Motherboard manufacturers (and others maybe?) have for some reason
started to refer to D-Sub rather than VGA. (Maybe they don't want to
have the string "VGA" anywhere in their literature for fear of being
thought old-fashioned? [Personally, at present, I wouldn't buy a system
without VGA as I can always find a VGA monitor, not necessarily any
other sort. This will I suppose become impractical in time as - being
analogue - the manufacturers want to ditch VGA.])

For identifying connectors (and much more), I have The Hardware Book
bookmarked - currently http://www.hardwarebook.info/ -
http://www.hardwarebook.info/Category:Connector (HDMI is under "Home
AV", not "Video", and unlike most others on the site, doesn't have a
drawing - but it's what you find on most modern TVs) -
http://www.hardwarebook.info/HDMI
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Grief generates a huge energy in you and it's better for everybody if you
harness it to do something. - Judi Dench, RT 2015/2/28-3/6

On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 14:36:30, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>Also note that, these days, the GPU is actually inside the CPU - the
>"motherboard's graphics" can consist only of the wiring and connectors
>(and maybe some buffering) - so make sure you get a CPU that contains
>the GPU! On the whole most do - the ones that don't have a letter on
>the end of the part number - I _think_ it's F, but do check.
>
>Applies to Intel. I don't know about AMD (or any other).

Reading that back, an extra comma would have been less ambiguous: "the
ones that don't, have a letter ...". So make sure you _don't_ get an
Intel processor with part number ending F (do check that!), if you're
relying on "motherboard graphics".
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Whoever decided to limit tagline length to 68 characters can kiss my

On 8/7/2021 5:06 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/7/2021 4:58 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-08-07 6:33 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/7/2021 4:03 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/7/2021 3:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Now found another set of specs which show UHD intel graphics on Die, so
>>>>>> that seems Ok.
>>>>>> That should be A beast of a Data Cruncher when done.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. I hope so.
>>>>
>>>> Check your two monitors.
>>>>
>>>> If one monitor has a DisplayPort, the other monitor has an HDMI input,
>>>> then you have a "perfect match".
>>>>
>>>>       B560 --- HDMI ----------- HDMI_Monitor
>>>>           \
>>>>            --- DP   ----------- DP_Monitor
>>>>
>>>> If the monitors are crusty in any way (mine have only VGA inputs),
>>>> then you need to add dongle adapters to those I/O plate outputs.
>>>> I keep a stock of HDMI to VGA and DisplayPort to VGA here. At my
>>>> house, the project would look like this.
>>>>
>>>>       B560 --- HDMI ----- HDMI-to-VGA --------- VGA_Monitor_#1
>>>>           \
>>>>            --- DP   ----- DP-to-VGA ----------- VGA_Monitor_#2
>>>>
>>>> Those two adapters, draw +5V from a pin on the
>>>> motherboard side of the diagram. The adapter simply
>>>> fits inline with the cabling, no challenges.
>>>>
>>>> We would need to know what connectors are on each monitor,
>>>> to best advise on what to do. Some adaptations are easy to
>>>> do, some are harder and more expensive. You might pay $20
>>>> for the easy adapters, and up to $100 for the harder-to-do
>>>> ones.
>>>>
>>>> There are also ways to run monitors off Thunderbolt, but
>>>> I've never seen an article showing practical examples. It
>>>> remains a mostly theoretical possibility due to the poor
>>>> penetration of Thunderbolt on ordinary PCs. Contemplating
>>>> adapters is a lot easier.
>>>>
>>>> You might even get away with one monitor being direct-wired,
>>>> and the second monitor being a bodge. The adapters are
>>>> for the most part transparent to the application. The software
>>>> should not whine about them. None of the software on the
>>>> Test Machine, has ever complained about my adapters.
>>>
>>>
>>> The monitors are identical and they have have the same cable/connectors.
>>> The current Asrock motherboard has two sockets, one D-Sub (I think) and
>>> one HDMI (I think). One of the monitor cables uses an adaptor to connect
>>> to the HDMI port. Or is what I think is HDMI actually a Display Port?
>>>
>>> Pardon my ignorance. As I said, I'm far from being a hardware expert,
>>> and I know very little about this stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The display port and HDMI sockets look nearly the same, the HDMI port
>> has 2 corners chopped off, the display port only 1.
>
> Thanks. I think it's HDMI, but I'll check tomorrow

I Just checked. Yes, it's HDMI.

>> About the mother board I would spent an extra $20 for the Z590 Asrock
>> Or even better an Extra $50 for an Asus Prime Z590 to get the best out
>> of your other high profile components, just my thoughts.
>
>
> Thanks very much. No time now, but I'll look into those tomorrow
>
>

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 6:49 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 at 16:33:58, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
> (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>>The monitors are identical and they have have the same
>>cable/connectors. The current Asrock motherboard has two sockets, one
>>D-Sub (I think) and one HDMI (I think). One of the monitor cables uses
>>an adaptor to connect to the HDMI port. Or is what I think is HDMI
>>actually a Display Port?
>>
>>Pardon my ignorance. As I said, I'm far from being a hardware expert,
>>and I know very little about this stuff.
>>
>>
> Motherboard manufacturers (and others maybe?) have for some reason
> started to refer to D-Sub rather than VGA.

Thanks. I hadn't realized that.

(Maybe they don't want to
> have the string "VGA" anywhere in their literature for fear of being
> thought old-fashioned? [Personally, at present, I wouldn't buy a system
> without VGA as I can always find a VGA monitor, not necessarily any
> other sort. This will I suppose become impractical in time as - being
> analogue - the manufacturers want to ditch VGA.])
>
> For identifying connectors (and much more), I have The Hardware Book
> bookmarked - currently http://www.hardwarebook.info/ -
> http://www.hardwarebook.info/Category:Connector (HDMI is under "Home
> AV", not "Video", and unlike most others on the site, doesn't have a
> drawing - but it's what you find on most modern TVs) -
> http://www.hardwarebook.info/HDMI
>

--
Ken

On 8/7/2021 9:00 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 14:53:18 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 8/7/2021 2:34 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 13:33:38 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Speaking of cases and power supplies, I'm planning on getting a new
>>>>computer (my present one isn't compatible with Windows 11), probably
>>>>next month. The case and power supply I'm tentatively planning on are
>>>>
>>>>Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>Thermaltake Toughpower GF1 850W 80+ Gold SLI/Crossfire Ready Ultra Quiet
>>>>140mm Hydraulic Bearing Smart Zero Fan Full Modular Power Supply
>>>>
>>>>I'm far from a hardware expert. Comments on the quality of these
>>>>components and any recommended changes from you or anyone else who knows
>>>>more about hardware than I do would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>And while I'm at it, here are the other components I'm planning on:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Motherboard - ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>>>>Micro ATX Intel motherboard
>>>
>>> I see that this motherboard has one HDMI port and one DisplayPort. Be sure
>>> to plan accordingly since you want to drive both of your existing monitors.
>>
>>
>>Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by "plan accordingly." What's the
>>difference between an HDMI port and display port?. Can I use that
>>motherboard with both monitors?
>
> Paul and others seem to have the situation under control so I'll step back.
> I only meant that you should be sure you know what kind of connectors your
> monitors have. If they have HDMI and DP, you're all set. If not, then
> you'll need to think about an adapter of some kind, as well as the proper
> cable(s).

Thanks again. As I said earlier, I already have an adaptor. The monitors
are identical and they have have the same cable/connectors. The current
Asrock motherboard has two sockets, one D-Sub (I think) and one HDMI (I
think). One of the monitor cables uses an adaptor to connect to the HDMI
port.

So as long as the new motherboard has the same has the same two monitor
connectors, I should be OK.

--
Ken

On 8/7/2021 10:09 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/7/2021 1:09 PM, Paul wrote:
>
>>
>> Speaking of cases and power supplies, I'm planning on getting a new
>> computer (my present one isn't compatible with Windows 11), probably
>> next month. The case and power supply I'm tentatively planning on are
>>
>> Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>>
>> Thermaltake Toughpower GF1 850W 80+ Gold SLI/Crossfire Ready Ultra Quiet
>> 140mm Hydraulic Bearing Smart Zero Fan Full Modular Power Supply
>>
>> I'm far from a hardware expert. Comments on the quality of these
>> components and any recommended changes from you or anyone else who knows
>> more about hardware than I do would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> And while I'm at it, here are the other components I'm planning on:
>>
>> Motherboard - ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>> Micro ATX Intel motherboard
>>
>> CPU    Intel Core i9-10900
>>
>> CPU Cooler - be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
>> Wings - PWM Fan - 135mm
>>
>> RAM - CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
>> 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>>
>> M2 Drive - Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
>> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3
>>
>> DVD Drive - ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
>> BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive
>>
>> No graphics card, since I don't play computer games and the
>> motherboard's graphics support should be OK for my two monitors.
>>
>> I'll move the two 2TB hard drives on my present computer into the new one.
>>
>> The total cost should be just under $1,500. I'll keep my present
>> keyboard, mouse, and two 24" monitors, all of which I like.
>>
>>
>> Again, comments on those components or any recommended changes would be
>> greatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>> With the help of a friend who is much younger and is much better at this
>> sort of thing than I am, I'll build it. (Actually, he'll probably do
>> most of the building).
>>
>> I'll have a total of 32GB of RAM, and 6GB of disk space, and both are
>> more than I need now, but I like to plan ahead for the future.
>>                                         --
>> Ken
>
> My opinions based on experience and personal preferences:
>
> You did not say what you would be doing with the new comp or how long
> you intend it to last.
>
> Black Comp Case: They are difficult to see and work on.
> I prefer beige or gray.
> Steel case: They are heavy and difficult to mod.
> Forget about the heavy glass door.
> 30+ pound computers are difficult to handle.
> I prefer all aluminum. Alum has about 5 times the thermal conductivity
> of steel.
>
> Thermaltake is good but the last one I had was a 750 and it burned out
> in 3 years (possibly my fault due to over clocking). Now I only use
> Seasonic Prime Titanium.
>
> CPU cooler... I prefer liquid coolers from Cooler Master.
> The difference in cooling ability is significant. Your cooler selection
> will cover 1/3 of the MB. Will it block or change air flow? The heat
> goes inside the case to heat up the other components. I like radiators
> outside of the case or at least attached to the back or top of the case.
> Also, it is not so good to have a large heavy fan attached to the MB.
> Picture a vibrating, heavy thing suspended from the glass and resin MB
> by 4 screws and if you're lucky some sort of back plate.
>
> If you're not a gamer then you may not need an i9.
> An i5 or i7 would work just fine. Likewise for the 3600 MHz ram.
> 2400 would work just fine. I suggest a ram fan, too, but with your CPU
> cooler selection that may not be possible.
> m.2 or SSD's... I prefer Samsung Pro and have fans on them, too.
>
> I prefer vid cards instead of onboard GPU's

Thanks very much. I'll look into your suggestions.

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:

Thanks very much, once again. Comments interspersed below.

>
> This is similar to the one you selected, the difference being that
> the crowd tends to give this brand a free ride. But, the table
> here reveals it's a ChannelWell (CWT) as well. I have two dead ones
> of those here (cap plague). Cap plague won't be an issue today,
> but you do not soon forget the nuisance this causes (changing out PSU).
> It has a ten year warranty.
>
> https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-rm850-power-supply,6127.html

OK, I switched to the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA). It's only $5 more
than what I had planned.

******
>>>
>>> ZP2000GM30002 FireCuda 2TB
>>>
>>> Interface PCIe Gen4 ×4
>>> NVMe 1.3
>>> NAND Flash Memory 3D TLC
>>> Form Factor M.2 2280-D2
>>> 2TB model = 3600TBW (1800 device writes, end to end)
>>>
>>> That means it will have a (SLC) write cache, and after some amount
>>> of continuous writes (say 20GB worth), will slow down. MLC
>>> 2-bit drives could write continuously at a constant rate. Still,
>>> given that the design is brand new and your choices are TLC (3-bit)
>>> or QLC (4-bit), TLC is the better of the two choices. We are unlikely
>>> to see extreme-corner-condition drives, except for the "Chia Farm"
>>> ones with exceptionally high TBW write endurance (12000 or 24000 TBW).
>>> And they don't even list prices for those.
>>
>>
>> Does that mean you recommend a different drive? If so, please tell me;
>> if it's not too much more expensive I'd consider it.
>
> Drive is fine.

Good.

>
> I was trying to give some idea, what the next (absurd) step up was.
> But they don't list prices for them. Apparently Micron makes
> "Enterprise Class Flash chips". And these have higher write cycles.
> Micron are actually pretty clever, making things you can't even buy.
> (Listing on web site, no product apparently ships.) We await the
> first reviews of the absurd ones.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> *******
>>>
>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND
>>>
>>> 1 x Hyper M.2 Socket (M2_1), supports M Key type
>>> Gen4 x4 (8GB/sec) with 11th Gen Intel Core Processors or
>>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) with 10th Gen Intel Core Processors
>>> 1 x Ultra M.2 Socket (M2_2), supports M Key typeto
>>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) <=== off the PCH, not the CPU
>>>
>>> The M2_1 is by the audio stack and just above the video card slot.
>>> It appears to have some metal sitting above it.
>>>
>>> The M2_2 is bottom right corner, near PCH. The PCH bandwidth
>>> comes through the DMI interface, and cannot go faster than DMI.
>>>
>>> *******
>>>
>>> Pretty sad really. I was expecting a bit more out of the PCH.
>>>
>>> (This is addressing the difference between B560 and Z590)
>
> https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/asus-tuf-z590-plus-wifi-review,2.html
>
> Normally, you expect the motherboards to have a block diagram of the
> wiring. In the Guru3D Z590 picture, you can see 20 lanes on the
> CPU, 16 lanes for a graphics card, 4 lanes for an M.2 slot.
>
> The DMI consists of eight Rev.3 lanes, equal to four Rev.4 lanes
> for math purposes, and if an M.2 Rev.4 storage device was placed
> off the Z590, it would use all the bandwidth the DMI had to offer.
> (The Gen.11 CPU has 8 lanes for DMI, the Gen.10 CPU has 4 lanes for DMI,
> and the unused Z590 lanes on its end, flap in the breeze for Gen.10.)
>
> It then raises the question, of where the two M.2 slots
> on the B560 connected.
>
> It took some digging to find more block diagrams. The Gigabyte
> site, lots of the Z590 user manuals did not get a block diagram,
> but I eventually found one. The Gigabyte site even started blocking
> my ability to download manuals.
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/BZhMzf70/b560-versus-z590.gif
>
> There might be some advantage on a Z590 board, to having
> a more posh VCore circuit. But that would boil down to a
> nicer $2 heatsink on each set of phases. I don't know
> where these people get their aluminum extrusion ideas from,
> but it would be nice if the heatsinks had fins like they
> were heatsinks.
>
> One dude measured 60C-80C on his new motherboard VCore and
> concluded that this was um, "wonderful". No, it's not. 80C
> means human skin burns if you touch it. I don't ever
> want to be working inside a PC and touch a thing like that,
> no matter how fast it cools off when the power goes off.
>
> I burned myself on the VCore of my 156W processor setup, and
> yours does 224W max for 28 seconds or so. The VCore has
> to make the power to do that. A nicer heatsink, or a lower
> junction temp on the components, such as you get on a
> $1000 motherboard would be great. Surely there's a better
> way to do this. But that's about the only opportunity I
> see on the Z590 for some advantage. The Z590, if you
> got a full sized motherboard, there's more room for junk.
> But the other thing I noticed, is they don't have
> HDMI+DP connectors on the back, and you only get one
> connector for people who don't want to buy a video card.
> Be careful what you wish for.
>
> On my system, I placed a fan as near as I could to
> the VCore heatsink. That might bring the surface
> temp down 5C or so.
>
> Maybe a B560 with a better VCore (perhaps a full sized
> motherboard), would make this easier ? Dunno. But the Gen.11
> CPU looks like the right choice, compared to the limitations
> of the Gen.10 one (if you're lucky, a Rev.4 M.2 slot).

Good.

> Paul
>

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:

> The history of some of the companies, tends to show their philosophy.

> For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
> And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
> specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to offer).

Just three more questions, if you don't mind:

1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) motherboard I had
selected or would it be better to switch to the

GIGABYTE Z590I AORUS Ultra (LGA 1200/Intel Z590/Mini-ITX/Dual M.2/PCIe
4.0/USB 3.2 Gen2X2 Type-C/Intel WiFi 6/Intel i225V 2.5GbE/ Gaming
Motherboard ($290 at Amazon)

....or ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
(PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel USB 3.2 Gen
2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)( $190 at Amazon)

....or ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
(14+2 DrMOS Power Stages,3X M.2, Intel 2.5 Gb LAN, USB 3.2 Front Panel
Type-C, Thunderbolt 4, Aura Sync RGB Lighting) ($262 at Amazon)

....or perhaps one of these ASROCK motherboards

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=asrock+z590+intel+motherboard&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

....or some other one you recommend?

Whichever motherboard I select has to support Windows 11, the Intel Core
i9-10900 CPU I've selected, the Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance
Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 drive, and (unless
I get a video card--see number 3 below) my two monitors with D-Sub
connectors (and an HDMI adapter on one of them). I'm not sure whether
all of these do.

*****

2. Should I stick with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm or, as Paul in Houston suggested,
would it be better to get a liquid cooler, such as the Cooler Master
MasterLiquid ML240 Illusion Close-Loop AIO CPU Liquid Cooler,
Translucent Dome, 3rd Gen Dual Chamber Pump, 240 Radiator, Dual MF120
Halo for AMD Ryzen/Intel 1200/1151 ?

Or if you think a different liquid cooler would be better, which one(s)
do you recommend?

*****

3. Should I stick with on-motherboard video connectors, or would I
better off with (even though I don't play computer games) an inexpensive
two-monitor video card, such as the VisionTek Radeon 5450 2GB DDR3
(DVI-I, HDMI, VGA) Graphics Card - 900861,Black/Red ($65 at Amazon)

....or the MAXSUN GEFORCE GT 710 2GB Video Graphics Card GPU, Support
DirectX 12 OpenGl 4.5, Low Profile, Low Consumption, VGA, DVI-D, HDMI,
HDCP, Silent Passive Fanless Cooling System ($80 at Amazon)

....or if you think I should get a video card, but neither of these,
which inexpensive one do you recommend?

....or the EVGA GeForce 210 1024 MB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/HDMI/VGA
Graphics Card, 01G-P3-1312-LR ($49 at Amazon)

Another choice is a single-monitor video card and also using the
motherboard video port if I buy a motherboard with only one. What do you
think of that choice, and if it's a good choice, what video card do you
recommend?

Also, if I stay with the on-motherboard video connectors (or even if I
buy one of these inexpensive video cards) is there any issue with there
being enough RAM to support two 24" monitors at 1920 x 1080?

*****

Once again, I don't mind adding a little to the total cost if it would
improve performance or longevity, as long it doesn't go over the $2,000
I had originally budgeted.

Thanks again.

--
Ken

On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>
> > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their philosophy.
>
> > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
> > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
> > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to offer).
>
>
> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>
> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) motherboard

Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be

ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel
Motherboard

Ken

> I had
> selected or would it be better to switch to the
> GIGABYTE Z590I AORUS Ultra (LGA 1200/Intel Z590/Mini-ITX/Dual M.2/PCIe
> 4.0/USB 3.2 Gen2X2 Type-C/Intel WiFi 6/Intel i225V 2.5GbE/ Gaming
> Motherboard ($290 at Amazon)
>
> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
> (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel USB 3.2 Gen
> 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)( $190 at Amazon)
>
> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
> (14+2 DrMOS Power Stages,3X M.2, Intel 2.5 Gb LAN, USB 3.2 Front Panel
> Type-C, Thunderbolt 4, Aura Sync RGB Lighting) ($262 at Amazon)
>
> ...or perhaps one of these ASROCK motherboards
>
> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=asrock+z590+intel+motherboard&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
>
> ...or some other one you recommend?
>
> Whichever motherboard I select has to support Windows 11, the Intel Core
> i9-10900 CPU I've selected, the Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance
> Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 drive, and (unless
> I get a video card--see number 3 below) my two monitors with D-Sub
> connectors (and an HDMI adapter on one of them). I'm not sure whether
> all of these do.
>
> *****
>
> 2. Should I stick with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
> with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm or, as Paul in Houston suggested,
> would it be better to get a liquid cooler, such as the Cooler Master
> MasterLiquid ML240 Illusion Close-Loop AIO CPU Liquid Cooler,
> Translucent Dome, 3rd Gen Dual Chamber Pump, 240 Radiator, Dual MF120
> Halo for AMD Ryzen/Intel 1200/1151 ?
>
> Or if you think a different liquid cooler would be better, which one(s)
> do you recommend?
>
>
> *****
>
> 3. Should I stick with on-motherboard video connectors, or would I
> better off with (even though I don't play computer games) an inexpensive
> two-monitor video card, such as the VisionTek Radeon 5450 2GB DDR3
> (DVI-I, HDMI, VGA) Graphics Card - 900861,Black/Red ($65 at Amazon)
>
> ...or the MAXSUN GEFORCE GT 710 2GB Video Graphics Card GPU, Support
> DirectX 12 OpenGl 4.5, Low Profile, Low Consumption, VGA, DVI-D, HDMI,
> HDCP, Silent Passive Fanless Cooling System ($80 at Amazon)
>
> ...or if you think I should get a video card, but neither of these,
> which inexpensive one do you recommend?
>
> ...or the EVGA GeForce 210 1024 MB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/HDMI/VGA
> Graphics Card, 01G-P3-1312-LR ($49 at Amazon)
>
> Another choice is a single-monitor video card and also using the
> motherboard video port if I buy a motherboard with only one. What do you
> think of that choice, and if it's a good choice, what video card do you
> recommend?
>
>
> Also, if I stay with the on-motherboard video connectors (or even if I
> buy one of these inexpensive video cards) is there any issue with there
> being enough RAM to support two 24" monitors at 1920 x 1080?
>
> *****
>
> Once again, I don't mind adding a little to the total cost if it would
> improve performance or longevity, as long it doesn't go over the $2,000
> I had originally budgeted.
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
>
>

--
Ken

Paul wrote:
> Ed Cryer wrote:
>> I have a 9-year old Acer Aspire X3990; good workhorse, Win10, very
>> reliable until recently;
>> https://www.manualslib.com/download/232907/Acer-Aspire-X3990.html
>>
>> I took the side panel off and it's run just fine for two days, still
>> rather hot, though.
>
> PCs *normally* work better with the side panel closed.
>
> Your PC seems to be minimally equipped for front-to-back cooling.
>
> https://media.karousell.com/media/photos/products/2018/11/12/acer_aspire_x3990_pc_1541961982_12d959aa_progressive.jpg
>
>
> Gulp!!!
>
> It used the PSU fan to cool the PC ??? Yikes.
>
> Check that the PSU fan is spinning. I can tell from
> the dinky size of PSU, it uses one of those small small
> fans (a whiner).
>
> When a PC becomes more stable by opening the side,
> it means either an intake filter is plugged with dust
> (not on yours, big grille holes). Or, it means the
> back exhaust fan is dead, turning the PC into a
> crematorium for the hard drive to endure.
>
> You can view the hard drive (HDD) temperature with HDTune
> health tab, amongst others. If you're running an SSD, you'll
> need something else for that, like the SSD Toolkit provided
> by the manufacturer. Check mfg spec for max HDD temp
> (55C? 60C? really? they'll take that? FDB motor? grrr).
>
>    http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe
>
> No wonder the poor thing idles at such a high
> temperature. Your computer case is a "Case from Hell".
>
> Summary: Based on available evidence, fix case cooling
>          first. While it's fun to take CPU apart and
>          re-butter with TIM, there is also a tiny tiny
>          danger of breaking something. For example,
>          ham-fisted Paul ruined the CoolerMaster fan
>          on his CoolerMaster blow-down cooler one day.
>          And replaced it with a screw-on Vantec Stealth
>          (four screws), which is still there today. And
>          that was while cleaning the CM fan blades. The
>          CoolerMaster uses a spring-loaded fan hub!
>
>    Paul

The situation is far worse in working reality, because the aluminium
housing for HD and DVD has been taken out in that picture. It fixes to
the front panel and covers everything except the fan-cpu and PSU. You
have to remove that housing even to get at the RAM.

I'm coming to have great respect for the Acer design engineers. How has
it lasted so long? I have an even older one that still works and has
never had a problem.
I think human science might be able to explain how a bumblebee flies
before it can explain this phenomenon!

Ed

Ken Blake wrote:
> Sorry, I accidentally pressed "Send" before I was ready. See below for
> the rest of what I wanted to say.
>
>
>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND
>>
>> 1 x Hyper M.2 Socket (M2_1), supports M Key type
>> Gen4 x4 (8GB/sec) with 11th Gen Intel Core Processors or
>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) with 10th Gen Intel Core Processors
>> 1 x Ultra M.2 Socket (M2_2), supports M Key typeto
>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) <=== off the PCH, not the CPU
>>
>> The M2_1 is by the audio stack and just above the video card slot.
>> It appears to have some metal sitting above it.
>>
>> The M2_2 is bottom right corner, near PCH. The PCH bandwidth
>> comes through the DMI interface, and cannot go faster than DMI.
>
>
>
> Sorry, I know next to nothing about PCH and DMI. Which socket would I
> use--Hyper or Ultra? Is that good or bad?

M2_1 comes right from the Gen.11 processor. The Gen.11 has 20 lanes Rev.4,
16 lanes for video, and a new 4 lane interface for an NVMe. The
Gen.10 CPU would have to be one hell of a lot cheaper, to make
it worthwhile buying today (as the boards where M2_1 slot stops
working, would not be looking good - just the other NVMe slot would work).

That's the combination you want, to test out the new Rev.4 rates
on NVMe flash drives (8GB/sec max). The Gen.11 processor makes sure
that one of the M.2 slots has a chance at stardom.

Rev1.1 250MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes
Rev.2 500MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes
Rev.3 1000MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes M.2 at 4GB/sec (typical 2.5GB/sec)
Rev.4 2000MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes M.2 at 8GB/sec (maybe 5GB/sec) <=== Gen.11

It would be considered "a sin" to buy a Gen.11 processor and "only"
put a Rev.3 NVMe in the slot :-) But the thing is, they want us
to buy new PCs, and we need to "experience the full effect".

If I blindfold a user and ask them to tell me what's in the
slot, would they know ? Probably not.

> I'm not interested in overclocking. But I just looked up Z590
> motherboards on Amazon. They recommend the Gigabyte Z590I Aorus Ultra
> (https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-Z590I-AORUS-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/dp/B08W8G5CCC/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Z590+Aorus+Ultra&qid=1628377543&sr=8-2).
> They call it a gaming motherboard, but I assume that the word "gaming"
> isn't significant; it just refers to speed, right?

CPU CPU
| |
| DMI | DMI
4| 8| all lanes rev.3. If all output
PCH (southbridge) PCH (southbridge) lanes used, lanes run at 1/3rd rate,
12| B560 24| Z590 but of course that usage pattern
| | never ever happens. Typically the
user uses 4 lanes of output at a time.

The B560 has 4 lanes in, 12 lanes out. Peripherals connect to the 12 lanes.

The Z590 has 8 lanes in, 24 lanes out. In all cases, lanes are Rev.3.

The Gen.11 processor has 8 lanes out, for the DMI. This means the
B560 uses only half of the interface, the Z590 uses the whole thing.

But the question would be, do you care.

The B560 PCH (southbridge), supports one M.2 slot at 4GB/sec easily.
The Z590 PCH (southbridge), supports two M.2 slots at 4GB/sec easily.

The Z590 has enough lanes left over, that more "toys" can
be joined up. This allows the motherboard makers to create
"tiers" of products, some more expensive than others. When
you look at the number and speed of the USB interfaces,
you'll be asking what the purpose of this "richness" is.
How many of these damn things do you need ? Well, the Z590 I/O plate
has a lot of unused space, so we're actually being ripped off.
The purpose of having four connectors out of this collection,
is so you can have connectors for USB sticks. A few people out
there, keep a "fleet" of external USB drives connected, and
they will not be happy with the unused I/O plate space with
no place for their "fleet".

USB3 500MB/sec Type A connector
USB3 1000MB/sec Type A connector
USB3 2000MB/sec Type C connector, dual lanes of the previous case

USB4 Higher still rates...
Thunderbolt Nobody cares at the current time...

One of the motherboards has an option connector for a
"Thunderbolt board", which is the height of foolishness.
The Thunderbolt chip should just be put on the damn motherboard,
we should not be teased with cheesy "option boards" in yr.2021.

The unknown factor, is whether a "gamer" Z590 board, has
a better VCore design that runs a bit cooler. Note that
you need a particular usage pattern, to "beat the piss" out
of VCore on these things, and if you're doing email on this
machine all the time, it will be "cool as a cucumber". You would
be asking yourself what I was talking about if you did email
and stuck your finger on the VCore heatsink.

You need a computer load that "cycles" in some fashion, to make the
VCore plate get hot, cool off, get hot again, cool off again.
Your processor has a relatively low all-cores TDP. If you run Prime95,
the plate cools off, after the 28 second turbo has passed. But
when Prime95 loads the next test pattern, there could be another
short turbo burst (and Vcore heating).

It's the turbo boost that gets us into messes like this.

My motherboard doesn't have a very fancy turbo, but because
of the heating effect, I turned turbo off at BIOS level.
Mine runs at 156W continuously in Prime95 *without* turbo.
That's different than yours, which should run 65W continuous
after the 28 second have passed.

Some boards have the tau set to infinity, which means
a gamer board could stay at the 224W level (because the
user goes into the BIOS and sets the controls for that).
The boards do not do that, out of the box, the gamer ones.
Your B560 choice for example, is likely to follow the
proscribed tau and power level. The Z590, depending on
price, can support more aggressive or even outside-the-warranty
operating conditions.

I don't want VCore circuits that get hot. I know they now
have closed loop feedback and cannot go into thermal runaway,
but I also don't want a motherboard to die on me, and years
have passed and I can't find a replacement motherboard to
repair it.

>
> Would that motherboard make a significant difference to me? Do you
> recommend it? Or would you recommend some other one. It's an extra $150,
> but I'd spring for it if it would madk a significant difference in
> performance.
>
> The price I had budgeted for everything was $2,000, and I'm
> significantly under that, so I'm open to spending a little more here and
> there for significant improvements.

I'm trying to factor in your estimated usage pattern, as
well as include enough interesting interfaces so the thing is
not a total bore.

I don't see enough value on the Z590. First, there's the HDMI+DP
(on your B560) versus just a single HDMI on the Z590. I'm not
meeting your objective of driving two monitors that way. And graphics
card available choices today are shitty, and I'm not going there.
Integrated graphics is good enough now (won't play Crysis at 30FPS :-) ).
There is always room for the required Crysis joke.

The Z590 I/O plates don't seem to be full. What a bunch
of cheap bastards. There are lanes to burn. Use them.

The Z590 that offers "an option connector for Thunderbolt",
well, put the damn Thunderbolt chip on your fancy board,
don't tease us. It's like being "threatened with a gourmet
meal and getting fries and ketchup in hand".

That's the problem I see with the Z590. In the old days, the
more expensive SKUs would deliver, on a full I/O plate, and
some demonstrated value. All we're getting in the ones I've
checked so far, is a higher price. Some have a couple Wifi
connectors, but is that it ???

> There's nothing sacred about that motherboard to me. Should I get the
> Gigabyte Z590I Aorus Ultra instead? Or if you have a better suggestion
> that will support the Intel i9 and two monitors and doesn't cost a
> whole lot more, please tell me (see above).

Keep a weather eye peeled, for "delivered features" versus "price".
That's what I've tried to address in this post, but I haven't
examined all 50 products on offer.

A user should allocate 30 days research time, before the
actual purchase. That's how long it takes to discover the
mistakes made, catch up on your research readings,
and correct the mistakes.

In normal times, if everything was "abundant", I'd try to synchronize
the purchases, so that the "retail clock" on returns, starts ticking
equally on the items. It's not good to purchase stuff and have
the retail return wind down, then discover it's not working :-)
It's a question of whether any items are shortage items, whether
such an ideal situation could ever exist today. I don't know what
supplies are shortage items.

On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their philosophy.
>>
>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>> offer).
>>
>>
>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>
>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>
>
> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>
> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel
> Motherboard

I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system

>
> Ken
>
>
>
>> I had
>> selected or would it be better to switch to the
>> GIGABYTE Z590I AORUS Ultra (LGA 1200/Intel Z590/Mini-ITX/Dual M.2/PCIe
>> 4.0/USB 3.2 Gen2X2 Type-C/Intel WiFi 6/Intel i225V 2.5GbE/ Gaming
>> Motherboard ($290 at Amazon)
>>
>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>> (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel USB 3.2 Gen
>> 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)( $190 at Amazon)
>>
>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>> (14+2 DrMOS Power Stages,3X M.2, Intel 2.5 Gb LAN, USB 3.2 Front Panel
>> Type-C, Thunderbolt 4, Aura Sync RGB Lighting) ($262 at Amazon)

For this system I would definitely choose the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard

>>
>> ...or perhaps one of these ASROCK motherboards
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=asrock+z590+intel+motherboard&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
>>
>>
>> ...or some other one you recommend?
>>
>> Whichever motherboard I select has to support Windows 11, the Intel Core
>> i9-10900 CPU I've selected, the Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance
>> Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 drive, and (unless
>> I get a video card--see number 3 below) my two monitors with  D-Sub
>> connectors (and an HDMI adapter on one of them). I'm not sure whether
>> all of these do.

I am pretty sure the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX
Motherboard will handle all that with confidence

>>
>> *****
>>
>> 2. Should I stick with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
>> with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm or, as Paul in Houston suggested,
>> would it be better to get a liquid cooler, such as the Cooler Master
>> MasterLiquid ML240 Illusion Close-Loop AIO CPU Liquid Cooler,
>> Translucent Dome, 3rd Gen Dual Chamber Pump, 240 Radiator, Dual MF120
>> Halo for AMD Ryzen/Intel 1200/1151 ?
>>
>> Or if you think a different liquid cooler would be better, which one(s)
>> do you recommend?

Your cooler choice is fine Plenty of cooling power there,, I would Not
go to liquid cooling, you don't need it, just more hassle and problems.

>> *****
>>
>> 3. Should I stick with on-motherboard video connectors, or would I
>> better off with (even though I don't play computer games) an inexpensive
>> two-monitor video card, such as the VisionTek Radeon 5450 2GB DDR3
>> (DVI-I, HDMI, VGA) Graphics Card - 900861,Black/Red ($65 at Amazon)
>>
>> ...or the MAXSUN GEFORCE GT 710 2GB Video Graphics Card GPU, Support
>> DirectX 12 OpenGl 4.5, Low Profile, Low Consumption, VGA, DVI-D, HDMI,
>> HDCP, Silent Passive Fanless Cooling System ($80 at Amazon)
>>
>> ...or if you think I should get a video card, but neither of these,
>> which inexpensive one do you recommend?

If your connections work fine for your 2 monitors I would stay with the
Intel UHD630 on chip CPU graphics, They work very well on both machines
here.

>> ...or the EVGA GeForce 210 1024 MB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/HDMI/VGA
>> Graphics Card, 01G-P3-1312-LR ($49 at Amazon)
>>
>> Another choice is a single-monitor video card and also using the
>> motherboard video port if I buy a motherboard with only one. What do you
>> think of that choice, and if it's a good choice, what video card do you
>> recommend?
>>
>>
>> Also, if I stay with the on-motherboard video connectors (or even if I
>> buy one of these inexpensive video cards) is there any issue with there
>> being enough RAM to support two 24" monitors at 1920 x 1080?

Plenty of ram, My on CPU graphics use 2 GB of ram , so no problem.

>>
>> *****
>>
>> Once again, I don't mind adding a little to the total cost if it would
>> improve performance or longevity, as long it doesn't go over the $2,000
>>    I had originally budgeted.
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>

Rene

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 14:36:30, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>> Also note that, these days, the GPU is actually inside the CPU - the
>> "motherboard's graphics" can consist only of the wiring and connectors
>> (and maybe some buffering) - so make sure you get a CPU that contains
>> the GPU! On the whole most do - the ones that don't have a letter on
>> the end of the part number - I _think_ it's F, but do check.
>>
>> Applies to Intel. I don't know about AMD (or any other).
>
> Reading that back, an extra comma would have been less ambiguous: "the
> ones that don't, have a letter ...". So make sure you _don't_ get an
> Intel processor with part number ending F (do check that!), if you're
> relying on "motherboard graphics".

On AMD, there are APU versions if you don't want a video card.

They used to begin with an A, as in A10-xxxx.

Because those were probably for the lower end of the spectrum,
the GPU could be part of the CPU die, making it an APU...

The APU title came from the AMD notion that the GPU "calculated stuff"
like the CPU, and thus they were "unified". Which is a load of bunk.

Still, some came out only a few days ago, so the concept
is alive and well and kicking. They've switched to putting
a G on the end, as in xxxxG. That's so the parts won't
be mistaken for "Bulldozer" or "Piledriver" :-)

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16824/amd-ryzen-7-5700g-and-ryzen-5-5600g-apu-review

Paul

On 2021-08-08 1:27 p.m., Paul wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 14:36:30, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> []
>>> Also note that, these days, the GPU is actually inside the CPU - the
>>> "motherboard's graphics" can consist only of the wiring and
>>> connectors (and maybe some buffering) - so make sure you get a CPU
>>> that contains the GPU! On the whole most do - the ones that don't
>>> have a letter on the end of the part number - I _think_ it's F, but
>>> do check.
>>>
>>> Applies to Intel. I don't know about AMD (or any other).
>>
>> Reading that back, an extra comma would have been less ambiguous: "the
>> ones that don't, have a letter ...". So make sure you _don't_ get an
>> Intel processor with part number ending F (do check that!), if you're
>> relying on "motherboard graphics".
>
> On AMD, there are APU versions if you don't want a video card.
>
> They used to begin with an A, as in A10-xxxx.
>
> Because those were probably for the lower end of the spectrum,
> the GPU could be part of the CPU die, making it an APU...
>
> The APU title came from the AMD notion that the GPU "calculated stuff"
> like the CPU, and thus they were "unified". Which is a load of bunk.
>
> Still, some came out only a few days ago, so the concept
> is alive and well and kicking. They've switched to putting
> a G on the end, as in xxxxG. That's so the parts won't
> be mistaken for "Bulldozer" or "Piledriver" :-)
>
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/16824/amd-ryzen-7-5700g-and-ryzen-5-5600g-apu-review
>
>
>    Paul

Yep, I am running an AMD 5 34006 with Radeon Vega 11 graphics on one
machine, Well satisfied, works great with medium tier games.

Rene

On 8/8/2021 11:06 AM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> Sorry, I accidentally pressed "Send" before I was ready. See below for
>> the rest of what I wanted to say.
>>
>>
>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND
>>>
>>> 1 x Hyper M.2 Socket (M2_1), supports M Key type
>>> Gen4 x4 (8GB/sec) with 11th Gen Intel Core Processors or
>>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) with 10th Gen Intel Core Processors
>>> 1 x Ultra M.2 Socket (M2_2), supports M Key typeto
>>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) <=== off the PCH, not the CPU
>>>
>>> The M2_1 is by the audio stack and just above the video card slot.
>>> It appears to have some metal sitting above it.
>>>
>>> The M2_2 is bottom right corner, near PCH. The PCH bandwidth
>>> comes through the DMI interface, and cannot go faster than DMI.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I know next to nothing about PCH and DMI. Which socket would I
>> use--Hyper or Ultra? Is that good or bad?
>
> M2_1 comes right from the Gen.11 processor. The Gen.11 has 20 lanes Rev.4,
> 16 lanes for video, and a new 4 lane interface for an NVMe. The
> Gen.10 CPU would have to be one hell of a lot cheaper, to make
> it worthwhile buying today (as the boards where M2_1 slot stops
> working, would not be looking good - just the other NVMe slot would work).
>
> That's the combination you want, to test out the new Rev.4 rates
> on NVMe flash drives (8GB/sec max). The Gen.11 processor makes sure
> that one of the M.2 slots has a chance at stardom.
>
> Rev1.1 250MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes
> Rev.2 500MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes
> Rev.3 1000MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes M.2 at 4GB/sec (typical 2.5GB/sec)
> Rev.4 2000MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes M.2 at 8GB/sec (maybe 5GB/sec) <=== Gen.11
>
> It would be considered "a sin" to buy a Gen.11 processor and "only"
> put a Rev.3 NVMe in the slot :-) But the thing is, they want us
> to buy new PCs, and we need to "experience the full effect".
>
> If I blindfold a user and ask them to tell me what's in the
> slot, would they know ? Probably not.
>
>> I'm not interested in overclocking. But I just looked up Z590
>> motherboards on Amazon. They recommend the Gigabyte Z590I Aorus Ultra
>> (https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-Z590I-AORUS-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/dp/B08W8G5CCC/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Z590+Aorus+Ultra&qid=1628377543&sr=8-2).
>> They call it a gaming motherboard, but I assume that the word "gaming"
>> isn't significant; it just refers to speed, right?
>
> CPU CPU
> | |
> | DMI | DMI
> 4| 8| all lanes rev.3. If all output
> PCH (southbridge) PCH (southbridge) lanes used, lanes run at 1/3rd rate,
> 12| B560 24| Z590 but of course that usage pattern
> | | never ever happens. Typically the
> user uses 4 lanes of output at a time.
>
> The B560 has 4 lanes in, 12 lanes out. Peripherals connect to the 12 lanes.
>
> The Z590 has 8 lanes in, 24 lanes out. In all cases, lanes are Rev.3.
>
> The Gen.11 processor has 8 lanes out, for the DMI. This means the
> B560 uses only half of the interface, the Z590 uses the whole thing.
>
> But the question would be, do you care.
>
> The B560 PCH (southbridge), supports one M.2 slot at 4GB/sec easily.
> The Z590 PCH (southbridge), supports two M.2 slots at 4GB/sec easily.
>
> The Z590 has enough lanes left over, that more "toys" can
> be joined up. This allows the motherboard makers to create
> "tiers" of products, some more expensive than others. When
> you look at the number and speed of the USB interfaces,
> you'll be asking what the purpose of this "richness" is.
> How many of these damn things do you need ? Well, the Z590 I/O plate
> has a lot of unused space, so we're actually being ripped off.
> The purpose of having four connectors out of this collection,
> is so you can have connectors for USB sticks. A few people out
> there, keep a "fleet" of external USB drives connected, and
> they will not be happy with the unused I/O plate space with
> no place for their "fleet".
>
> USB3 500MB/sec Type A connector
> USB3 1000MB/sec Type A connector
> USB3 2000MB/sec Type C connector, dual lanes of the previous case
>
> USB4 Higher still rates...
> Thunderbolt Nobody cares at the current time...
>
> One of the motherboards has an option connector for a
> "Thunderbolt board", which is the height of foolishness.
> The Thunderbolt chip should just be put on the damn motherboard,
> we should not be teased with cheesy "option boards" in yr.2021.
>
> The unknown factor, is whether a "gamer" Z590 board, has
> a better VCore design that runs a bit cooler. Note that
> you need a particular usage pattern, to "beat the piss" out
> of VCore on these things, and if you're doing email on this
> machine all the time, it will be "cool as a cucumber". You would
> be asking yourself what I was talking about if you did email
> and stuck your finger on the VCore heatsink.
>
> You need a computer load that "cycles" in some fashion, to make the
> VCore plate get hot, cool off, get hot again, cool off again.
> Your processor has a relatively low all-cores TDP. If you run Prime95,
> the plate cools off, after the 28 second turbo has passed. But
> when Prime95 loads the next test pattern, there could be another
> short turbo burst (and Vcore heating).
>
> It's the turbo boost that gets us into messes like this.
>
> My motherboard doesn't have a very fancy turbo, but because
> of the heating effect, I turned turbo off at BIOS level.
> Mine runs at 156W continuously in Prime95 *without* turbo.
> That's different than yours, which should run 65W continuous
> after the 28 second have passed.
>
> Some boards have the tau set to infinity, which means
> a gamer board could stay at the 224W level (because the
> user goes into the BIOS and sets the controls for that).
> The boards do not do that, out of the box, the gamer ones.
> Your B560 choice for example, is likely to follow the
> proscribed tau and power level. The Z590, depending on
> price, can support more aggressive or even outside-the-warranty
> operating conditions.
>
> I don't want VCore circuits that get hot. I know they now
> have closed loop feedback and cannot go into thermal runaway,
> but I also don't want a motherboard to die on me, and years
> have passed and I can't find a replacement motherboard to
> repair it.
>
>>
>> Would that motherboard make a significant difference to me? Do you
>> recommend it? Or would you recommend some other one. It's an extra $150,
>> but I'd spring for it if it would madk a significant difference in
>> performance.
>>
>> The price I had budgeted for everything was $2,000, and I'm
>> significantly under that, so I'm open to spending a little more here and
>> there for significant improvements.
>
> I'm trying to factor in your estimated usage pattern, as
> well as include enough interesting interfaces so the thing is
> not a total bore.
>
> I don't see enough value on the Z590. First, there's the HDMI+DP
> (on your B560) versus just a single HDMI on the Z590. I'm not
> meeting your objective of driving two monitors that way. And graphics
> card available choices today are shitty, and I'm not going there.
> Integrated graphics is good enough now (won't play Crysis at 30FPS :-) ).
> There is always room for the required Crysis joke.
>
> The Z590 I/O plates don't seem to be full. What a bunch
> of cheap bastards. There are lanes to burn. Use them.
>
> The Z590 that offers "an option connector for Thunderbolt",
> well, put the damn Thunderbolt chip on your fancy board,
> don't tease us. It's like being "threatened with a gourmet
> meal and getting fries and ketchup in hand".
>
> That's the problem I see with the Z590. In the old days, the
> more expensive SKUs would deliver, on a full I/O plate, and
> some demonstrated value. All we're getting in the ones I've
> checked so far, is a higher price. Some have a couple Wifi
> connectors, but is that it ???
>
>> There's nothing sacred about that motherboard to me. Should I get the
>> Gigabyte Z590I Aorus Ultra instead? Or if you have a better suggestion
>> that will support the Intel i9 and two monitors and doesn't cost a
>> whole lot more, please tell me (see above).
>
> Keep a weather eye peeled, for "delivered features" versus "price".
> That's what I've tried to address in this post, but I haven't
> examined all 50 products on offer.

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/7/2021 5:06 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/7/2021 4:58 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

>>> The display port and HDMI sockets look nearly the same, the HDMI port
>>> has 2 corners chopped off, the display port only 1.
>>
>> Thanks. I think it's HDMI, but I'll check tomorrow
>
>
> I Just checked. Yes, it's HDMI.

B560 --- HDMI --------------------------- HDMI_Monitor_#1
\
--- DP ----- DP-to-HDMI ---------- HDMI_Monitor_#2

DP to HDMI. Seems in the cheap category
(don't let the price here fool you,
there will be other brands)

https://www.startech.com/en-ca/audio-video-products/dp2hdmi2

Audio Specifications HDMI - 7.1 Channel Audio
Maximum Cable 49.9 ft
Maximum Resolutions 1920x1200 / 1080p
HDCP 1.4

HOST COMPATIBILITY: Tested for compatibility with DP++ source;
Passive converter supports DP++ source connector
incl workstations, desktops (AMD/Nvidia video cards),
laptops, small form factor computers and
docking stations.

That means the host machine needs to have that logo on it.

It's almost like being a DP to DVI single lane adapter,
based on resolution limitation.

So that should be dirt cheap, like $10 for two connectors and no silicon.

This is an example of an "Active DP to HDMI" dongle, drawing +5V from
the DP connector. The max output resolution is much higher, but the
GPU will have trouble keeping up (like, playing a 4K video perhaps and
doing the decoding in QuickSync). Still, for multiple times more
expensive, this solves the problem. You can drive a significant portion
of all available HDMI monitor types with this.

https://www.startech.com/en-ca/audio-video-products/dp2hd4k60s

DisplayPort to HDMI 2.0 (4K at 60 Hz) HDCP 2.2

Chipset ID = Parade - PS176

Paul

On 2021-08-08 1:43 p.m., Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 1:27 p.m., Paul wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 14:36:30, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>>> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> []
>>>> Also note that, these days, the GPU is actually inside the CPU - the
>>>> "motherboard's graphics" can consist only of the wiring and
>>>> connectors (and maybe some buffering) - so make sure you get a CPU
>>>> that contains the GPU! On the whole most do - the ones that don't
>>>> have a letter on the end of the part number - I _think_ it's F, but
>>>> do check.
>>>>
>>>> Applies to Intel. I don't know about AMD (or any other).
>>>
>>> Reading that back, an extra comma would have been less ambiguous:
>>> "the ones that don't, have a letter ...". So make sure you _don't_
>>> get an Intel processor with part number ending F (do check that!), if
>>> you're relying on "motherboard graphics".
>>
>> On AMD, there are APU versions if you don't want a video card.
>>
>> They used to begin with an A, as in A10-xxxx.
>>
>> Because those were probably for the lower end of the spectrum,
>> the GPU could be part of the CPU die, making it an APU...
>>
>> The APU title came from the AMD notion that the GPU "calculated stuff"
>> like the CPU, and thus they were "unified". Which is a load of bunk.
>>
>> Still, some came out only a few days ago, so the concept
>> is alive and well and kicking. They've switched to putting
>> a G on the end, as in xxxxG. That's so the parts won't
>> be mistaken for "Bulldozer" or "Piledriver" :-)
>>
>> https://www.anandtech.com/show/16824/amd-ryzen-7-5700g-and-ryzen-5-5600g-apu-review
>>
>>
>>     Paul
>
>
> Yep, I am running an AMD 5 34006  with Radeon Vega 11 graphics on one
> machine, Well satisfied, works great with medium tier games.
>
> Rene
>

Should be AMD 5 3400G not 34006, I wish I knew how to type. :-)

Rene

On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their philosophy.
>>>
>>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>>> offer).
>>>
>>>
>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>
>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>
>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel
>> Motherboard
>
> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system

Why not? What's the disadvantage?

>>> I had
>>> selected or would it be better to switch to the
>>> GIGABYTE Z590I AORUS Ultra (LGA 1200/Intel Z590/Mini-ITX/Dual M.2/PCIe
>>> 4.0/USB 3.2 Gen2X2 Type-C/Intel WiFi 6/Intel i225V 2.5GbE/ Gaming
>>> Motherboard ($290 at Amazon)
>>>
>>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>>> (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel USB 3.2 Gen
>>> 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)( $190 at Amazon)
>>>
>>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>>> (14+2 DrMOS Power Stages,3X M.2, Intel 2.5 Gb LAN, USB 3.2 Front Panel
>>> Type-C, Thunderbolt 4, Aura Sync RGB Lighting) ($262 at Amazon)
>
> For this system I would definitely choose the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
> 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard

Thanks very much. See Paul's reply to me and mine to him. He apparently
thinks there would no advantage to my going to the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard. It's $127 more than the
ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel
Motherboard I had selected.

So please tell why you think I should get the ASUS. If you can convince
me that the ASUS is significantly better and can get Paul to agree, I'll
spring for the extra $162; otherwise I'll stay with what I had selected.

And by the way, looking at pictures of the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard on Amazon's web site, I see an
HDMI port, but I don't think it has a VGA port. Am I wrong?

>>> ...or perhaps one of these ASROCK motherboards
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=asrock+z590+intel+motherboard&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
>>>
>>>
>>> ...or some other one you recommend?
>>>
>>> Whichever motherboard I select has to support Windows 11, the Intel Core
>>> i9-10900 CPU I've selected, the Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance
>>> Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 drive, and (unless
>>> I get a video card--see number 3 below) my two monitors with  D-Sub
>>> connectors (and an HDMI adapter on one of them). I'm not sure whether
>>> all of these do.
>
> I am pretty sure the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX
> Motherboard will handle all that with confidence
>
>>>
>>> *****
>>>
>>> 2. Should I stick with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
>>> with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm or, as Paul in Houston suggested,
>>> would it be better to get a liquid cooler, such as the Cooler Master
>>> MasterLiquid ML240 Illusion Close-Loop AIO CPU Liquid Cooler,
>>> Translucent Dome, 3rd Gen Dual Chamber Pump, 240 Radiator, Dual MF120
>>> Halo for AMD Ryzen/Intel 1200/1151 ?
>>>
>>> Or if you think a different liquid cooler would be better, which one(s)
>>> do you recommend?
>
> Your cooler choice is fine Plenty of cooling power there,, I would Not
> go to liquid cooling, you don't need it, just more hassle and problems.

Glad you agree with Paul

>>> *****
>>>
>>> 3. Should I stick with on-motherboard video connectors, or would I
>>> better off with (even though I don't play computer games) an inexpensive
>>> two-monitor video card, such as the VisionTek Radeon 5450 2GB DDR3
>>> (DVI-I, HDMI, VGA) Graphics Card - 900861,Black/Red ($65 at Amazon)
>>>
>>> ...or the MAXSUN GEFORCE GT 710 2GB Video Graphics Card GPU, Support
>>> DirectX 12 OpenGl 4.5, Low Profile, Low Consumption, VGA, DVI-D, HDMI,
>>> HDCP, Silent Passive Fanless Cooling System ($80 at Amazon)
>>>
>>> ...or if you think I should get a video card, but neither of these,
>>> which inexpensive one do you recommend?
>
> If your connections work fine for your 2 monitors I would stay with the
> Intel UHD630 on chip CPU graphics, They work very well on both machines
> here.

Great, again same as what Paul said.

>>> ...or the EVGA GeForce 210 1024 MB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/HDMI/VGA
>>> Graphics Card, 01G-P3-1312-LR ($49 at Amazon)
>>>
>>> Another choice is a single-monitor video card and also using the
>>> motherboard video port if I buy a motherboard with only one. What do you
>>> think of that choice, and if it's a good choice, what video card do you
>>> recommend?
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, if I stay with the on-motherboard video connectors (or even if I
>>> buy one of these inexpensive video cards) is there any issue with there
>>> being enough RAM to support two 24" monitors at 1920 x 1080?
>
> Plenty of ram, My on CPU graphics use 2 GB of ram , so no problem.
>
>
>>>
>>> *****
>>>
>>> Once again, I don't mind adding a little to the total cost if it would
>>> improve performance or longevity, as long it doesn't go over the $2,000
>>>    I had originally budgeted.
>>>
>>> Thanks again.
>>>
>
> Rene
>
>

--
Ken

On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>> philosophy.
>>>>
>>>>   > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>   > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>   > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>>>> offer).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+
>>>> Gold
>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)  motherboard
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>
>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>> Intel Motherboard
>>
>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>
>
> Why not? What's the disadvantage?

Poorer heat dissipation
Harder to work on.
only 2 memory slots
only 1 M.2 slot
only 1 PCIE slot
I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.

>

>
>>>> I had
>>>> selected or would it be better to switch to the
>>>> GIGABYTE Z590I AORUS Ultra (LGA 1200/Intel Z590/Mini-ITX/Dual M.2/PCIe
>>>> 4.0/USB 3.2 Gen2X2 Type-C/Intel WiFi 6/Intel i225V 2.5GbE/ Gaming
>>>> Motherboard ($290 at Amazon)
>>>>
>>>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>>>> (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel USB 3.2
>>>> Gen
>>>> 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)( $190 at Amazon)
>>>>
>>>> ...or ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>>>> (14+2 DrMOS Power Stages,3X M.2, Intel 2.5 Gb LAN, USB 3.2 Front Panel
>>>> Type-C, Thunderbolt 4, Aura Sync RGB Lighting) ($262 at Amazon)
>>
>> For this system I would definitely choose the  ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
>> 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard
>
>
> Thanks very much. See Paul's reply to me and mine to him. He apparently
> thinks there would no advantage to my going to the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
> 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard. It's $127 more than the
> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel
> Motherboard I had selected.
>
> So please tell why you think I should get the ASUS. If you can convince
> me that the ASUS is significantly better and can get Paul to agree, I'll
> spring for the extra $162; otherwise I'll stay with what I had selected.
>
> And by the way, looking at pictures of the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA
> 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX Motherboard on Amazon's web site, I see an
> HDMI port, but I don't think it has a VGA port. Am I wrong?
>
>
>
>>>> ...or perhaps one of these ASROCK motherboards
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=asrock+z590+intel+motherboard&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...or some other one you recommend?
>>>>
>>>> Whichever motherboard I select has to support Windows 11, the Intel
>>>> Core
>>>> i9-10900 CPU I've selected, the Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance
>>>> Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 drive, and (unless
>>>> I get a video card--see number 3 below) my two monitors with  D-Sub
>>>> connectors (and an HDMI adapter on one of them). I'm not sure whether
>>>> all of these do.
>>
>> I am pretty sure the ASUS Prime Z590-A LGA 1200 (Intel11th/10th Gen) ATX
>> Motherboard will handle all that with confidence
>>
>>>>
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> 2. Should I stick with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU
>>>> Cooler
>>>> with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm or, as Paul in Houston suggested,
>>>> would it be better to get a liquid cooler, such as the Cooler Master
>>>> MasterLiquid ML240 Illusion Close-Loop AIO CPU Liquid Cooler,
>>>> Translucent Dome, 3rd Gen Dual Chamber Pump, 240 Radiator, Dual MF120
>>>> Halo for AMD Ryzen/Intel 1200/1151 ?
>>>>
>>>> Or if you think a different liquid cooler would be better, which one(s)
>>>> do you recommend?
>>
>> Your cooler choice is fine Plenty of cooling power there,, I would Not
>> go to liquid cooling, you don't need it,  just more hassle and problems.
>
>
> Glad you agree with Paul
>
>
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> 3. Should I stick with on-motherboard video connectors, or would I
>>>> better off with (even though I don't play computer games) an
>>>> inexpensive
>>>> two-monitor video card, such as the VisionTek Radeon 5450 2GB DDR3
>>>> (DVI-I, HDMI, VGA) Graphics Card - 900861,Black/Red ($65 at Amazon)
>>>>
>>>> ...or the MAXSUN GEFORCE GT 710 2GB Video Graphics Card GPU, Support
>>>> DirectX 12 OpenGl 4.5, Low Profile, Low Consumption, VGA, DVI-D, HDMI,
>>>> HDCP, Silent Passive Fanless Cooling System ($80 at Amazon)
>>>>
>>>> ...or if you think I should get a video card, but neither of these,
>>>> which inexpensive one do you recommend?
>>
>> If your connections work fine for your 2 monitors I would stay with the
>> Intel UHD630 on chip CPU graphics, They work very well on both machines
>> here.
>
>
> Great, again same as what Paul said.
>
>
>>>> ...or the EVGA GeForce 210 1024 MB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 DVI/HDMI/VGA
>>>> Graphics Card, 01G-P3-1312-LR ($49 at Amazon)
>>>>
>>>> Another choice is a single-monitor video card and also using the
>>>> motherboard video port if I buy a motherboard with only one. What do
>>>> you
>>>> think of that choice, and if it's a good choice, what video card do you
>>>> recommend?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, if I stay with the on-motherboard video connectors (or even if I
>>>> buy one of these inexpensive video cards) is there any issue with there
>>>> being enough RAM to support two 24" monitors at 1920 x 1080?
>>
>> Plenty of ram, My on CPU graphics use 2 GB of ram , so no problem.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> Once again, I don't mind adding a little to the total cost if it would
>>>> improve performance or longevity, as long it doesn't go over the $2,000
>>>>    I had originally budgeted.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again.
>>>>

Rene

On 8/8/21 3:33 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> The fan is noiseless and passes your two tests. I guess the second is
> for bearings.

Yes

>
> Does "capture the blades on a fan" mean hold it?
>
> Ed

Yes. I usually use a ball point pen.

Problem is, it is too much fun to watch the
stinker spin. You have to use self discipline!
AAAAAA HHHHHHHH !!!!!

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 1:43 p.m., Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-08-08 1:27 p.m., Paul wrote:
>>> J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 14:36:30, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>>>> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>>> []
>>>>> Also note that, these days, the GPU is actually inside the CPU -
>>>>> the "motherboard's graphics" can consist only of the wiring and
>>>>> connectors (and maybe some buffering) - so make sure you get a CPU
>>>>> that contains the GPU! On the whole most do - the ones that don't
>>>>> have a letter on the end of the part number - I _think_ it's F, but
>>>>> do check.
>>>>>
>>>>> Applies to Intel. I don't know about AMD (or any other).
>>>>
>>>> Reading that back, an extra comma would have been less ambiguous:
>>>> "the ones that don't, have a letter ...". So make sure you _don't_
>>>> get an Intel processor with part number ending F (do check that!),
>>>> if you're relying on "motherboard graphics".
>>>
>>> On AMD, there are APU versions if you don't want a video card.
>>>
>>> They used to begin with an A, as in A10-xxxx.
>>>
>>> Because those were probably for the lower end of the spectrum,
>>> the GPU could be part of the CPU die, making it an APU...
>>>
>>> The APU title came from the AMD notion that the GPU "calculated stuff"
>>> like the CPU, and thus they were "unified". Which is a load of bunk.
>>>
>>> Still, some came out only a few days ago, so the concept
>>> is alive and well and kicking. They've switched to putting
>>> a G on the end, as in xxxxG. That's so the parts won't
>>> be mistaken for "Bulldozer" or "Piledriver" :-)
>>>
>>> https://www.anandtech.com/show/16824/amd-ryzen-7-5700g-and-ryzen-5-5600g-apu-review
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Yep, I am running an AMD 5 34006 with Radeon Vega 11 graphics on one
>> machine, Well satisfied, works great with medium tier games.
>>
>> Rene
>>
>
> Should be AMD 5 3400G not 34006, I wish I knew how to type. :-)
>
> Rene
>

Had me worried there for a second :-)

The "G" looks much nicer.

Paul

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 2:01 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/8/2021 11:15 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-08 11:42 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/8/2021 9:30 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 8/8/2021 12:11 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > The history of some of the companies, tends to show their
>>>>> philosophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> > For example FSP (fortron sparkle), the cables were always short.
>>>>> > And the crossloading, always "hugged" the spec in the ATX
>>>>> > specification document (they used all the slop the spec had to
>>>>> offer).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just three more questions, if you don't mind:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Should I stay with the Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+
>>>>> Gold
>>>>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) motherboard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I pasted the wrong thing there. It should be
>>>>
>>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
>>>> Intel Motherboard
>>>
>>> I would not want a mini or micro ATX motherboard in a quality system
>>
>>
>> Why not? What's the disadvantage?
>
> Poorer heat dissipation
> Harder to work on.
> only 2 memory slots
> only 1 M.2 slot
> only 1 PCIE slot
> I am thinking of longevity and possible future expansion.

I like to see two proper x16 slots for video, and not
because I like SLI or Crossfire. The second slot is
for "anything-goes toys". If a toy needs a good bus
connection, you've got one.

On the other machine, I've put a USB adapter that has
x2 wiring on an x4 PCB and plugged that into one of
the x16 slots. I still don't have an external drive
fast enough to test it. With the kit I've got, I can
only drive that to 30% of its rating. No good for
benching.

The reason for using x16 slots or wanting them, is
so you can plug in a PCIe card with a switch chip
in future, and reach up two speeds higher. A x16 Rev.3
slot could be used, with a switch chip, to reach x4 Rev.5
and test the NVMe that will be coming out in a year or two.

And Rev.5 will be out soon, but expect limitations
and maybe the usage of redrivers or so. It's hard to
say how many slots can be PCIe Rev.5. They released
PCIe Rev.4 spec and PCIe Rev.5 spec, close to the
same time. I would guess it's going to take companies
like Asmedia, a bit of time to spin Rev.5 chips.

And the Rev.5 is going to look pretty silly, if the
motherboard runs out of RAM bandwidth. The wand-waving
has to stop. Memory cannot necessarily keep up with
the demands of paper-weight peripherals. Nothing
says, for a particular generation, that your home
build is "perfectly balanced", and you might easily
end up with a PCIe Rev.5 build that only benches
at PCIe Rev.4 rates.

On the high speed USB, and after the spec was released
and all, they discovered that mixing two flavors of high
speed USB on a suitable hub, did not work properly, and
one peripheral would "starve" the other for bandwidth.
Such are the travails of releasing hardware without
having all the materials in hand to check for mistakes
like that. There's always some test case you forgot to
run in simulation. Most of the people in this group,
aren't rich enough to have run into these cases :-)
I guess that's what keeps USB.org reputation intact,
is nobody checking on them.

You can't stop progress, but you can smear it
all over the map. To such an extent, nobody can
answer questions about it. Are there any USB4 yet ?
What speed does a USB4 work at ? Who knows...

Another example is running video over Thunderbolt.
I'm sure everyone here has a Thunderbolt on their
motherboard, and a chain of dangly items to make
their monitor work. Am I right ? <snicker>
Yes, there's progress, but not so you'd notice.

Paul

Ken Blake wrote:

> So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for something
> else comes along, you think I should stick with
>
> the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
> Intel Motherboard
>
> be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings - PWM
> Fan - 135 mm
>
> and no video card.
>
> Am I right?
>
> So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete list of
> components now is
>
> Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
> PH-ES614P_BK,Black
> 109.99 Newegg
>
> Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply
> (CP-9020180-NA)
> 144.88 Amazon
>
> Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
> Micro ATX Intel
> Motherboard
> 134.99 Newegg
>
> CPU Intel Core
> i9-10900
> 389.99 Amazon
>
> CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
> Wings - PWM Fan - 135
> mm 84.9
> Amazon
>
> RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
> 28800) Int Model
> CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
> 189.98 Amazon
>
> M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe
> 1.3 394.99
> Newegg
>
> DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
> BLACK - OEM Bulk
> Drive
> 21.99 Amazon
>
> For a total price of $1,471.71
>
> Unless I hear otherwise from you or a better price on something
> better comes along, that's what I'll go
> with.
>
> Many thanks, once more.

I can warn you about the issues I've seen, but you
are in control of the feature set. I haven't looked at
all the 590 ones, to conclude they're all bad bargains.
But I'm just not seeing them "lean" the way they used to.
You could go up $50 in price, and fill up the I/O plate.
The 590 ones aren't hitting my "attraction" sensor.

As for the objective of running Windows 11, that
oughta keep them busy for a while, wearing that down :-)
You'll need lots of Windows Defender scans to slow that
thing down. It's the browser people I'm worried about :-)
"A script is slowing down the browser, would you
like to play Tetris instead?".

I did not check your RAM for height, nor did I verify
the reviews for the sticks are OK. As far as I know, the
speed of the RAM selected is consistent with the Intel
limit on memory defined for B560. (The "policy" is really
a matter of the CPU and has nothing to do with the B560,
yet you may notice how the B560 motherboards don't go past 3200
for RAM.) There were occasions in the past, where individual
companies discovered hacks to make some of the selectors
go higher.

Paul