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computers / alt.comp.os.windows-10 / Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

SubjectAuthor
* CPU and heatsink cleaningEd Cryer
+- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningNeil
+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|`- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningCarlos E. R.
+- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul in Houston TX
+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningChar Jackson
|||+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||||`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
||||| `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||||  `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||||   +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||||   |+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||||   ||`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||||   || `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||||   ||  `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||||   |`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningJ. P. Gilliver (John)
|||||   | `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||||   `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningChar Jackson
||||`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningChar Jackson
|||| `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningJ. P. Gilliver (John)
||| `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningJ. P. Gilliver (John)
|||  `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||   `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||    `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||     `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
||+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||| +- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||| `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||  `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||   `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
||||    `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||     `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
||||      +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
||||      |`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||      | `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
||||      |  `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||      |   `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
||||      |    `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||      +- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||||      `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningChar Jackson
||||       `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||| `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||  `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||   `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||    `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||     `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||      `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||       `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||        +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||        |`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||        | `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||        |  `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||        |   +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||        |   |`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||        |   | +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||        |   | |`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||        |   | | `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||        |   | |  `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||        |   | `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||        |   `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||        |    +- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||        |    `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||        |     `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||        `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||         `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||          `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           | `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |  `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |   `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           |    `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |     +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           |     |`- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           |     `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |      +* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||           |      |+- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||           |      |`- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |      `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningCarey's Fan
|||           |       `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           |        `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |         `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           |          `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |           `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||           |            `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|||           |             `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |              `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||           |               `* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
|||           |                `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningRene Lamontagne
|||           `- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul in Houston TX
|||`- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningKen Blake
||+- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningAndy Burns
||`* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningPaul
|`- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningEd Cryer
+* Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningT
`- Re: CPU and heatsink cleaningDex

Pages:12345
Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<set3si$4qa$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52798&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52798

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 01:46:59 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <indrrsFpvnpU1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Paul - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 05:46 UTC

Ken Blake wrote:

> So are you saying the ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s
> ATX $190 is a better choice than the MSI? I don't mind spending an
> extra $20 for it (and $190 is its Newegg price; it's $180 on Amazon).

I would need to see a number of "reassuring entries" for the MSI
product, to rescue it now.

You can use the Asus as a stand-in for your current choice.
Just because I haven't seen something disparaging about the
Asus, does not mean I won't eventually find such an entry.

I think the Asus forum is closed, so we don't have that as an
information source.

> Again, my problem is that I don't know enough about hardware to
> recognize a bombshell if I see one. That's why I was looking for your
> (and Rene's) recommendations. You both know *much* more than I do.

But you're a savvy shopper though, and don't believe everything you read.

> So can you recommend a different inexpensive video card instead?

The problem now, is the video card market is a shambles.

I tried to track down a nice looking GT 1030 (one HDMI and one DP),
but the only ones I can find are crap (have DVI-D instead and it could
be single-lane 1920x1080).

My local computer store, claimed to "have them in stock", and there
are two cards from sea to shining sea. That's it. That's
their stock. And when the stock is that low, the item is
usually open-box and the ordering system won't let you order
it. You have to drive to the store, examine the open-box item
and basically sign off on the condition of the item.

The reason for moving from GT 710 to GT 1030, was driver support.
There are probably two years more driver support left. But it's
a sub-optimal card (a "not fit for purpose" kind of card). It is
a single-slot wide. That's what I wanted, so your M.2 would not
be covered by a video card, and it would be easier to see and
work inside the PC. If I go for a "higher" card than that, several
things happen

- card will be two slots wide, or even 2.5 slots wide
- power consumption goes up
- price goes way up

I'm so desperate now, I'd shop for an AMD card :-) Do you
hear that NVidia ? Oh, yes, they're deafened by the sound of the
money they're making on the $3000 cards. The situation on AMD
isn't all that good either. I thought the Chinese had crushed
all the bitcoin mining equipment ? Where is my video card supply
gone now ? Have they run out of solder to make them ? Or do they
only have enough solder to make $3000 cards (mysteriously).

Looks like you'll be hugging those Intel graphics for a bit longer.

Let's pretend the "back to school shoppers" got all of them.
That's the ticket.

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<set60m$bqh$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52801&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52801

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 02:23:20 -0400
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 by: Paul - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 06:23 UTC

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/9/2021 3:31 PM, Paul wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> Do you think I'd be better off with a different cooler? What do you
>>> recommend? There are several choices below; is one them a better
>>> choice than the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler I had
>>> selected"
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=intel+i910900+cpu+cooler&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
>>
>> There's a Noctua one in the LGA1200 list, but
>> it's just as heavy as the Dark Force one and big too.
>>
>> I have a Noctua, and it takes up the entire
>> inside of the case. I work the RAM levers with
>> a stick of wood (heat sink in the way). And I can't remember
>> what toolage trick I used the last time, to get the ATX12V
>> connector out. I used some tool with an extended nose,
>> to work the latch.
>>
>> Your board, needs a 2x4 connector at a minimum. Some of
>> the boards come with 2x2 + 2x4 (twelve pins total), which is
>> 144+(2*144) max watts. Using the 2x4 alone is (2*144W)
>> or 288W max, sufficient for 224W during the 28 second
>> turbo activity. The turbo needs 2x4, if it didn't
>> turbo, a single 2x2 would be more than sufficient :-
>
>
> Sorry, I understand next to nothing about that. Are there choices of
> types of connectors and number of connectors? What's the significance of
> that?

In the old days (P4 Prescott), you'd have a 95W processor and
a 2x2 ATX12V connector. Two yellow wires at 6 amps max each.
Two black ground wires for the current to return on. 12 amps times
12V is 144W. [I use this site to discuss connectors...]

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html (connector pix)

This was sufficient for most PCs back then. They could overclock them
to a certain degree.

Next, they doubled the supply of pins. If you look carefully at your
PSU purchase, there is a 2x4 connector that splits into two 2x2 pieces.
You can plug in just one 2x2 section for legacy PCs that need 144W or less.

The 2x4 connector, by using both halves and then plugging in the
entire 2x4 assembly, that gives four yellow wires. This is a
doubling of available power. Your PSU is highly likely to have
the 2x4 cable for "CPU". In the picture here, the two halves have
been separated and now need to be slid together before insertion
into the motherboard. They made the connector split in half,
so it could be used on 2x2 machines or 2x4 machines.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/eps4plus4index.jpg

Builder seats the ATX12V...

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/eps.jpg

Some of the motherboards have room for not only a 2x4, but even
an additional 2x2 (new for LGA1200). That's a total of 6 yellow wires,
36 amps total times 12V is 432W, which leaves room for even the highest
overclock on one of the K processors. The 590 boards are
ready for the K processors and will agree to abuse them in that
way. All controllable (on or off) from the enthusiast BIOS.

>> They're still selling the Hyper 212. Four heat pipes. $45
>> But I wouldn't use this - look at the base plate.
>
>
> I don't know what a base plate is, nor what its significance is. Again,
> please understand that I know a fair amount about software but very
> little about hardware.
>
>
> So should I stay with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
> with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm ?

Have you checked your RAM clearance yet ?

How tall are the RAM ? I haven't checked. We're looking
for <40mm . Some of the modules have exaggerated decorations
that cut into your fingers, that make the modules tall enough
to be a nuisance.

The base plate is the metal surface that presses against the
processor. Heatsinks with raw pipes pressed against the CPU,
we can't be absolutely sure they're all pressing equally. Heatsinks
with a milled and polished bottom on them, present less of a
challenge. The Dark Rock is undoubtedly as flat as the Noctua.
It's items like the Hyper212 with the pipes sticking through
like they are that are different. Your processor is only 65W
in a sense, and it's only the 28 second turbo session that heats
it up. If we used a Hyper212, then the turbo might stop in less
than 28 seconds.

There's nothing wrong with your choice. However, I've recommended
two places to check for dimensions. Check clearance from the
smaller fan, to the top of the RAM. If your RAM heatsinks are
squat enough, then the RAM can easily be removed on demand.

On the other side (exhaust side) of the cooler, the tail of the
cooler must clear the heatsink on the VRM. The MSI motherboard
(now off the table so to speak) had a high heatsink and I think
easily cleared, as the tail of the Dark Rock likely isn't leaning
over it. I didn't have an "eng drawing" to use, so had to
eyeball it. The Dark Rock main web page, has a picture of the
unit seated on an Aorus motherboard, and that's what I used
to guide my check.

Because the performance of the Noctua and the Dark Rock are
similar, the heatsinks are almost the same weight, about
the only difference is the Noctua has the one fan and not two.
In each case, as the savvy shopper, you eyeball them and
check for clearance issues. Sometimes I have to stare at
these stupid things for hours and dig up a ton of pix, to
feel assured enough to approve one of these. If you don't
get these things done right, at some future time, you
will hear whining about "I hate working inside my PC because...
and it's all your fault" :-) Well, I hate working inside mine,
because there's no room in there to do anything. That's a
disadvantage of using a good cooler. If you used the Hyper212,
there'd be a ton of room. And I don't always use big sinks -- the
Asrock build with the VIA chipset, I used the Intel cooler
for that, which is quite small. The CPU in that case, only
draws 36W measured, so it can't get too warm.

Your cooler is still fine. However, we changed your
motherboard and so the clearance check needs to be repeated.
Remember what I said about it taking a month ? This is why.
Constant juggling to make sure all issues are covered off.

On my very first build, two parts did not mate properly
mechanically. I had to go down into the shop, and grind the
living shit out of a heatsink, to finish my build. Maybe
now you understand why I'm (apparently) paranoid about details :-)

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<seu19a$gfu$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52819&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52819

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 10:08:44 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <set3si$4qa$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Paul - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 14:08 UTC

Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> So are you saying the ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA
>> 6Gb/s ATX $190 is a better choice than the MSI? I don't mind spending
>> an extra $20 for it (and $190 is its Newegg price; it's $180 on Amazon).
>
> I would need to see a number of "reassuring entries" for the MSI
> product, to rescue it now.
>
> You can use the Asus as a stand-in for your current choice.
> Just because I haven't seen something disparaging about the
> Asus, does not mean I won't eventually find such an entry.
>

Here is another one to look at. $260 or so.

User manual (hardware issues explained)

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI/E18030_TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI_UM_v2_web.pdf

BIOS manual

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/13MANUAL/PRIME_PRO_TUF_GAMING_Intel_500_Series_BIOS_EM_WEB_EN.pdf

Product page

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/TUF-Gaming/TUF-Gaming-Z590-PLUS-WIFI/

It's kind of like the Prime.

The differences are minor. The Thunderbird header is still
the control header, and there's still a separate card necessary
to make it all work. The Maple Ridge is not onboard.

They don't throw adapters in the box - for example, like my
motherboard, this motherboard has a RS232 serial port. I use
that for remote coms between balky computers in the computer
room. If the Linux screen does not come up on the other machine,
I use the serial link and a copy of Putty to talk to it. I had
to make my own adapter cable, out of bits and pieces here, guess
at the wiring, and it worked on the first try. It's not like
the extra money goes into adapter plates. I would have appreciated
an adapter plate with mine, instead of having to make one.

But the above manual covers some topics that I've mentioned. The
Audio 2x3-1 header, there are pictures in the manual, including
how to connect 7.1 audio. One of the input connectors, becomes an
output to make that work.

It has Wifi and the cute little Wifi antenna ("shark fin").

I had to resort to the picture strip at the bottom of the above Asus
webpage, to see pictures of it. The Newegg page only had two pictures
from the set.

The I/O plate is a bit better spaced, but part of that is using
a logo to cover up some of the space.

I haven't looked at any reviews yet.

The only reason I opened up a web page again, is Anandtech
mentioned it in a motherboard list. I would agree the
documentation looks nice, but with the limitations of the
PCH, you really can't change the design all that much on these
things. There's still the interaction between SATA and M.2, but
it's documented in the manual. It's almost written in English.

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<infiqfF68dkU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 08:03:42 -0700
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Content-Language: en-US
 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 15:03 UTC

On 8/10/2021 7:08 AM, Paul wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> So are you saying the ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA
>>> 6Gb/s ATX $190 is a better choice than the MSI? I don't mind spending
>>> an extra $20 for it (and $190 is its Newegg price; it's $180 on Amazon).
>>
>> I would need to see a number of "reassuring entries" for the MSI
>> product, to rescue it now.
>>
>> You can use the Asus as a stand-in for your current choice.
>> Just because I haven't seen something disparaging about the
>> Asus, does not mean I won't eventually find such an entry.
>>
>
> Here is another one to look at. $260 or so.
>
> User manual (hardware issues explained)
>
> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI/E18030_TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI_UM_v2_web.pdf
>
> BIOS manual
>
> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/13MANUAL/PRIME_PRO_TUF_GAMING_Intel_500_Series_BIOS_EM_WEB_EN.pdf
>
> Product page
>
> https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Motherboards/TUF-Gaming/TUF-Gaming-Z590-PLUS-WIFI/
>
> It's kind of like the Prime.
>
> The differences are minor.

I don't see anything there that seems to make it a better choice for me,
so I don't think it's worth the extra $100.

So I'm going to keep the ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th
Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN,
Front Panel USB 3.2 Gen 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support) on my
shopping list, unless you or someone else comes up with a better suggestion.

And when I do Google searches for "cheap" or "budget" video cards,
almost everything is over $500, with an occasional choice around $200.
I'm not willing to spend that much, so unless you or someone else comes
up with a good choice that's not over $100 one of these days, I'll stick
with the motherboard video support.

The ASUS Prime Z590-P apparently has support for two monitors, one using
an HDMI port, and one a display port. As I said, both my monitors have
VGA connectors and I have an HDMI adapter on one of them. So I'll need
to buy a display port adapter for the other. There's a Moread
DisplayPort (DP) to VGA Adapter, Gold-Plated Display Port to VGA Adapter
(Male to Female) Compatible with Computer, Desktop, Laptop, PC, Monitor,
Projector, HDTV - Black for sale on Amazon for only $7.99. Is that OK,
or is there some reason why I should buy a more expensive one?

> The Thunderbird header is still
> the control header, and there's still a separate card necessary
> to make it all work. The Maple Ridge is not onboard.
>
> They don't throw adapters in the box - for example, like my
> motherboard, this motherboard has a RS232 serial port. I use
> that for remote coms between balky computers in the computer
> room. If the Linux screen does not come up on the other machine,
> I use the serial link and a copy of Putty to talk to it. I had
> to make my own adapter cable, out of bits and pieces here, guess
> at the wiring, and it worked on the first try. It's not like
> the extra money goes into adapter plates. I would have appreciated
> an adapter plate with mine, instead of having to make one.
>
> But the above manual covers some topics that I've mentioned. The
> Audio 2x3-1 header, there are pictures in the manual, including
> how to connect 7.1 audio. One of the input connectors, becomes an
> output to make that work.
>
> It has Wifi and the cute little Wifi antenna ("shark fin").
>
> I had to resort to the picture strip at the bottom of the above Asus
> webpage, to see pictures of it. The Newegg page only had two pictures
> from the set.
>
> The I/O plate is a bit better spaced, but part of that is using
> a logo to cover up some of the space.
>
> I haven't looked at any reviews yet.
>
> The only reason I opened up a web page again, is Anandtech
> mentioned it in a motherboard list. I would agree the
> documentation looks nice, but with the limitations of the
> PCH, you really can't change the design all that much on these
> things. There's still the interaction between SATA and M.2, but
> it's documented in the manual. It's almost written in English.
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<infjq1F6fk3U1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52824&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52824

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 08:20:32 -0700
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In-Reply-To: <set3si$4qa$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 15:20 UTC

On 8/9/2021 10:46 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> So are you saying the ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s
>> ATX $190 is a better choice than the MSI? I don't mind spending an
>> extra $20 for it (and $190 is its Newegg price; it's $180 on Amazon).
>
> I would need to see a number of "reassuring entries" for the MSI
> product, to rescue it now.
>
> You can use the Asus as a stand-in for your current choice.
> Just because I haven't seen something disparaging about the
> Asus, does not mean I won't eventually find such an entry.

There are probably no products of any type--not just computer
hardware--that don't have some things wrong with them. The trick is to
find products with few things that are wrong, and none of the wrong
things critical.

As an example of what I mean, I wish I could find a motherboard the
quality of what I've chosen, but with two VGA ports. I can't, so I'll
make do with an HDMI adapter and a display port adapter.

> I think the Asus forum is closed, so we don't have that as an
> information source.
>
>> Again, my problem is that I don't know enough about hardware to
>> recognize a bombshell if I see one. That's why I was looking for your
>> (and Rene's) recommendations. You both know *much* more than I do.
>
> But you're a savvy shopper though, and don't believe everything you read.

Thanks for the kind words, and many thanks once again for all the help
you've provided. See the other message I just sent. Unless someone comes
up with something that makes me change, I think my shopping list is set now.

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<infk6fF6hb1U1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52825&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52825

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 08:27:11 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 15:27 UTC

On 8/9/2021 5:00 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-08-09 4:55 p.m., Paul wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/9/2021 10:32 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks again for all the info below, but me let ask my other questions
>>> again:
>>>
>>> So if I understand you correctly, you think this [MSI Z590-A PRO LGA
>>> 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX] would be a better choice for me than
>>> the ASUS H570 or one of the ASUS Z590s. Am I right? Can you explain why?
>>
>> I tried to find a board with a mix of connectors plus an expansion
>> capability. (Even if none of the boards are as expandable as the boards
>> we used to get in the past.)
>>
>> MSI Z590-A PRO LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX  $170
>> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144392?Item=N82E16813144392
>>
>>    12+2+1 power
>>    PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
>>    2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS +
>> 1x1000MBS front]
>>    Intel 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
>>    16+1+4+1 PCIe wiring
>>    3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
>>    2x3 audio stack no tricks Realtek ALC897
>>    6 SATA, but interacts with M.2 installation/usage (shared wires
>> presumably)
>>
>> ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX  $190
>> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813119372?Item=N82E16813119372
>>
>>    10+1 DrMOS power
>>    PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
>>    2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS +
>> 1x1000MBS front]
>>    RealTek 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
>>    16+4+1+1 PCIe wiring
>>    3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
>>    2x3-1 audio stack
>>    4 SATA (implied in that, might still see one port interact with M.2
>> usage)
>>
>> But I did find one review for the MSI one, saying the BIOS is not
>> fit for consumption. I guess that puts an end to that then :-/
>>
>> I suppose in a sense, they use the same set of choices on the PCH
>> as one another. And one ended up priced at the moment, $20 cheaper
>> than the other. But a broken BIOS is not good, on the MSI.
>> With so many positive reviews, I simply assumed the users had
>> been in the BIOS at least once on the MSI.
>>
>> I stand by the statement, that it takes a month to make
>> a product selection. That's how long it takes to slog through
>> seemingly trivial materials until you find a bombshell somewhere.
>> You can't rush the process -- unless you like surprises and your
>> retailer just loves your returns. My local store has had to modify
>> their return policy a couple of times, because it was
>> too generous.
>>
>>>
>>> Video Card    ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI
>>> Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L)
>>> 69.76        Amazon
>>
>> The problem with this is drivers. Driver support should stop.
>> Even though the manufacturers re-released this on their own,
>> that doesn't mean that NVidia agrees with their logic. There
>> can be no shirking on the support policy. NVidia and AMD cut
>> off old cards, and that's it. You hope there will be a
>> Windows 11 driver, but you don't really know whether they
>> will bother.
>>
>> The card I bought for example (a Zotac), has only one Windows 7 driver,
>> as Windows 7 support was sliding out of view at the time. It
>> has had a ton of Windows 10 drivers. The drivers are provided by
>> NVidia, not Zotac. The driver policy is determined by NVidia.
>>
>> I don't consider something GT1300 class to be a good deal,
>> as it has no video encoder/decoder. The GTX1500 is the lowest
>> SKU with video acceleration. The GT710 is likely to be the
>> only one with a VGA on it. Cards of that class, usually
>> have three connectors, each connector a different standard.
>> Even the GTX1500 won't have driver support for that much
>> longer. It would be very likely to get at least one
>> Windows 11 driver. It's a two slot card, and not cheap.
>> The latest generations of cards, they start at higher
>> performance levels, have lots of fans, and so on. With prices
>> to match. We're squeezed between Microsoft driver habits
>> (new WDDM all the time) versus support by manufacturer.
>>
>> With NVidia, HDMI should be used for the monitor with the
>> Start menu button, you can use DP to VGA for any secondary
>> monitor. I learned this by first hand experience, as occasionally
>> the driver would pick the HDMI to drive out at startup, and
>> I would be greeted with a black screen via DP. Once I put the main
>> monitor on the HDMI, both I and the video card saw eye to eye
>> on working conditions. I don't know why it does this, so this
>> is just a warning as to what manipulation of cabling and
>> adapters may be necessary for stability during startup choices.
>> For the Intel, I doubt Intel would copy such a feature. But
>> it remains to be said though, that DP are considered to be
>> "secondary" connectors from an enumeration standpoint.
>>
>>     HDMI        \
>>     DVI          \___ How a high end video card enumerates stuff
>>                  /    The number of DPs is a function of the product
>>     DP,DP,DP,DP /     pricing. The first two connectors are in a kind
>>                       of legacy or preferred status, even though the
>>                       stupid connector sensors can tell exactly which
>>                       ports have no monitor on them. For example, mon
>> on DP,
>>                       no cable on HDMI, it'll drive out on HDMI!
>>                       This is wrong wrong wrong! Why have sensors ?
>>
>>    Paul
>
> As UEFI's are a bit of a quagmire, one review with negative Bios
> ratings may not be significant,

One negative review of anything, not just the BIOS, may not be
significant. Not everyone has the same technical skills, not everyone
has the same needs, and not everyone has the same opinions.

> Until I read and reread the manual on
> both my ASUS m/bs I was lost, now it's no problem and I can navigate in
> there without too much anguish.
> The MSI Z590 A PRO looks like a hell of a fine deal to me at the price.
> I would not hesitate to use it, its a toss up with the Asus PRIME Z590-P

It's not a toss-up for me. I don't see anything about the MSI Z590 A PRO
that looks like it's worth the extra $100 to me, so I'll stick with the
Z590-P.

> But I would still deep six the ZOLTEC 710 idea and go withe the Intel
> UDH630 onboard graphics and 2 adapter cables.

I did. Thanks again.

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<infm2iF6tjdU1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52832&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52832

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From: rlamont@shaw.ca (Rene Lamontagne)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 10:59:13 -0500
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 by: Rene Lamontagne - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 15:59 UTC

On 2021-08-10 10:27 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/9/2021 5:00 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-08-09 4:55 p.m., Paul wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 8/9/2021 10:32 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for all the info below, but me let ask my other
>>>> questions again:
>>>>
>>>> So if I understand you correctly, you think this [MSI Z590-A PRO LGA
>>>> 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX] would be a better choice for me than
>>>> the ASUS H570 or one of the ASUS Z590s. Am I right? Can you explain
>>>> why?
>>>
>>> I tried to find a board with a mix of connectors plus an expansion
>>> capability. (Even if none of the boards are as expandable as the boards
>>> we used to get in the past.)
>>>
>>> MSI Z590-A PRO LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX  $170
>>> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813144392?Item=N82E16813144392
>>>
>>>     12+2+1 power
>>>     PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
>>>     2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS +
>>> 1x1000MBS front]
>>>     Intel 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
>>>     16+1+4+1 PCIe wiring
>>>     3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
>>>     2x3 audio stack no tricks Realtek ALC897
>>>     6 SATA, but interacts with M.2 installation/usage (shared wires
>>> presumably)
>>>
>>> ASUS PRIME Z590-P LGA 1200 Intel Z590 SATA 6Gb/s ATX  $190
>>> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813119372?Item=N82E16813119372
>>>
>>>     10+1 DrMOS power
>>>     PS/2, 2*USB2, HDMI+DP
>>>     2x500MBS + 1x1000MBS + 1x2000MBS back, [headers: 4x500MBS +
>>> 1x1000MBS front]
>>>     RealTek 2.5Gbit/sec Ethernet
>>>     16+4+1+1 PCIe wiring
>>>     3 M.2, one is Rev.4 and has cooler
>>>     2x3-1 audio stack
>>>     4 SATA (implied in that, might still see one port interact with
>>> M.2 usage)
>>>
>>> But I did find one review for the MSI one, saying the BIOS is not
>>> fit for consumption. I guess that puts an end to that then :-/
>>>
>>> I suppose in a sense, they use the same set of choices on the PCH
>>> as one another. And one ended up priced at the moment, $20 cheaper
>>> than the other. But a broken BIOS is not good, on the MSI.
>>> With so many positive reviews, I simply assumed the users had
>>> been in the BIOS at least once on the MSI.
>>>
>>> I stand by the statement, that it takes a month to make
>>> a product selection. That's how long it takes to slog through
>>> seemingly trivial materials until you find a bombshell somewhere.
>>> You can't rush the process -- unless you like surprises and your
>>> retailer just loves your returns. My local store has had to modify
>>> their return policy a couple of times, because it was
>>> too generous.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Video Card    ZOTAC GeForce GT 710 2GB DDR3 PCI-E2.0 DL-DVI VGA HDMI
>>>> Passive Cooled Single Slot Low Profile Graphics Card (ZT-71302-20L)
>>>> 69.76        Amazon
>>>
>>> The problem with this is drivers. Driver support should stop.
>>> Even though the manufacturers re-released this on their own,
>>> that doesn't mean that NVidia agrees with their logic. There
>>> can be no shirking on the support policy. NVidia and AMD cut
>>> off old cards, and that's it. You hope there will be a
>>> Windows 11 driver, but you don't really know whether they
>>> will bother.
>>>
>>> The card I bought for example (a Zotac), has only one Windows 7 driver,
>>> as Windows 7 support was sliding out of view at the time. It
>>> has had a ton of Windows 10 drivers. The drivers are provided by
>>> NVidia, not Zotac. The driver policy is determined by NVidia.
>>>
>>> I don't consider something GT1300 class to be a good deal,
>>> as it has no video encoder/decoder. The GTX1500 is the lowest
>>> SKU with video acceleration. The GT710 is likely to be the
>>> only one with a VGA on it. Cards of that class, usually
>>> have three connectors, each connector a different standard.
>>> Even the GTX1500 won't have driver support for that much
>>> longer. It would be very likely to get at least one
>>> Windows 11 driver. It's a two slot card, and not cheap.
>>> The latest generations of cards, they start at higher
>>> performance levels, have lots of fans, and so on. With prices
>>> to match. We're squeezed between Microsoft driver habits
>>> (new WDDM all the time) versus support by manufacturer.
>>>
>>> With NVidia, HDMI should be used for the monitor with the
>>> Start menu button, you can use DP to VGA for any secondary
>>> monitor. I learned this by first hand experience, as occasionally
>>> the driver would pick the HDMI to drive out at startup, and
>>> I would be greeted with a black screen via DP. Once I put the main
>>> monitor on the HDMI, both I and the video card saw eye to eye
>>> on working conditions. I don't know why it does this, so this
>>> is just a warning as to what manipulation of cabling and
>>> adapters may be necessary for stability during startup choices.
>>> For the Intel, I doubt Intel would copy such a feature. But
>>> it remains to be said though, that DP are considered to be
>>> "secondary" connectors from an enumeration standpoint.
>>>
>>>      HDMI        \
>>>      DVI          \___ How a high end video card enumerates stuff
>>>                   /    The number of DPs is a function of the product
>>>      DP,DP,DP,DP /     pricing. The first two connectors are in a kind
>>>                        of legacy or preferred status, even though the
>>>                        stupid connector sensors can tell exactly which
>>>                        ports have no monitor on them. For example,
>>> mon on DP,
>>>                        no cable on HDMI, it'll drive out on HDMI!
>>>                        This is wrong wrong wrong! Why have sensors ?
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>
>> As  UEFI's are a bit of a quagmire, one review  with negative Bios
>> ratings may not be significant,
>
>
> One negative review of anything, not just the BIOS, may not be
> significant. Not everyone has the same technical skills, not everyone
> has the same needs, and not everyone has the same opinions.
>
>
>> Until I read and reread the manual on
>> both my ASUS m/bs I was lost, now it's no problem and I can navigate in
>> there without too much anguish.
>> The MSI Z590 A PRO looks like a hell of a fine deal to me at the price.
>> I would not hesitate to use it, its a toss up with the Asus PRIME Z590-P
>
>
> It's not a toss-up for me. I don't see anything about the MSI Z590 A PRO
> that looks like it's worth the extra $100 to me, so I'll stick with the
> Z590-P.

Good Choice, my pick also.

>
>
>> But I would still deep six the  ZOLTEC 710  idea and go withe the Intel
>> UDH630 onboard graphics and 2 adapter cables.
>
>
> I did. Thanks again.
>
>

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<infoqpF7fhvU1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52844&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52844

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 09:46:17 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 16:46 UTC

On 8/9/2021 11:23 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/9/2021 3:31 PM, Paul wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you think I'd be better off with a different cooler? What do you
>>>> recommend? There are several choices below; is one them a better
>>>> choice than the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler I had
>>>> selected"
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=intel+i910900+cpu+cooler&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
>>>
>>> There's a Noctua one in the LGA1200 list, but
>>> it's just as heavy as the Dark Force one and big too.
>>>
>>> I have a Noctua, and it takes up the entire
>>> inside of the case. I work the RAM levers with
>>> a stick of wood (heat sink in the way). And I can't remember
>>> what toolage trick I used the last time, to get the ATX12V
>>> connector out. I used some tool with an extended nose,
>>> to work the latch.
>>>
>>> Your board, needs a 2x4 connector at a minimum. Some of
>>> the boards come with 2x2 + 2x4 (twelve pins total), which is
>>> 144+(2*144) max watts. Using the 2x4 alone is (2*144W)
>>> or 288W max, sufficient for 224W during the 28 second
>>> turbo activity. The turbo needs 2x4, if it didn't
>>> turbo, a single 2x2 would be more than sufficient :-
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I understand next to nothing about that. Are there choices of
>> types of connectors and number of connectors? What's the significance of
>> that?
>
> In the old days (P4 Prescott), you'd have a 95W processor and
> a 2x2 ATX12V connector. Two yellow wires at 6 amps max each.
> Two black ground wires for the current to return on. 12 amps times
> 12V is 144W. [I use this site to discuss connectors...]
>
> http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html (connector pix)
>
> This was sufficient for most PCs back then. They could overclock them
> to a certain degree.
>
> Next, they doubled the supply of pins. If you look carefully at your
> PSU purchase, there is a 2x4 connector that splits into two 2x2 pieces.
> You can plug in just one 2x2 section for legacy PCs that need 144W or less.
>
> The 2x4 connector, by using both halves and then plugging in the
> entire 2x4 assembly, that gives four yellow wires. This is a
> doubling of available power. Your PSU is highly likely to have
> the 2x4 cable for "CPU". In the picture here, the two halves have
> been separated and now need to be slid together before insertion
> into the motherboard. They made the connector split in half,
> so it could be used on 2x2 machines or 2x4 machines.
>
> http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/eps4plus4index.jpg
>
> Builder seats the ATX12V...
>
> http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/eps.jpg
>
> Some of the motherboards have room for not only a 2x4, but even
> an additional 2x2 (new for LGA1200). That's a total of 6 yellow wires,
> 36 amps total times 12V is 432W, which leaves room for even the highest
> overclock on one of the K processors. The 590 boards are
> ready for the K processors and will agree to abuse them in that
> way. All controllable (on or off) from the enthusiast BIOS.

Thanks for the explanation.

>
>>> They're still selling the Hyper 212. Four heat pipes. $45
>>> But I wouldn't use this - look at the base plate.
>>
>>
>> I don't know what a base plate is, nor what its significance is. Again,
>> please understand that I know a fair amount about software but very
>> little about hardware.
>>
>>
>> So should I stay with the be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler
>> with Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm ?
>
> Have you checked your RAM clearance yet ?

No. How can I do that? I just checked the Corsair, Amazon, and Newegg
web sites and neither says anything about how tall they are. And a
Google search didn't find anything. Is there some other web site I
should go to?

> How tall are the RAM ? I haven't checked. We're looking
> for <40mm . Some of the modules have exaggerated decorations
> that cut into your fingers, that make the modules tall enough
> to be a nuisance.
>
> The base plate is the metal surface that presses against the
> processor. Heatsinks with raw pipes pressed against the CPU,
> we can't be absolutely sure they're all pressing equally. Heatsinks
> with a milled and polished bottom on them, present less of a
> challenge. The Dark Rock is undoubtedly as flat as the Noctua.
> It's items like the Hyper212 with the pipes sticking through
> like they are that are different. Your processor is only 65W
> in a sense, and it's only the 28 second turbo session that heats
> it up. If we used a Hyper212, then the turbo might stop in less
> than 28 seconds.

Thanks.

>
> There's nothing wrong with your choice. However, I've recommended
> two places to check for dimensions. Check clearance from the
> smaller fan, to the top of the RAM.

I went to
https://www.bequiet.com/admin/ImageServer.php?ID=261cba15636@be-quiet.net&.jpg
and that shows 40mm clearance, which I guess is why you said above that
the RAM has to be less than 40mm high. But as I said, I don't know how
to find out what the RAM height is.

If I can't find out the RAM height, can you recommend some other RAM
where it's possible to be sure it's under 40mm?

> If your RAM heatsinks are
> squat enough, then the RAM can easily be removed on demand.
>
> On the other side (exhaust side) of the cooler, the tail of the
> cooler must clear the heatsink on the VRM. The MSI motherboard
> (now off the table so to speak) had a high heatsink and I think
> easily cleared, as the tail of the Dark Rock likely isn't leaning
> over it. I didn't have an "eng drawing" to use, so had to
> eyeball it. The Dark Rock main web page, has a picture of the
> unit seated on an Aorus motherboard, and that's what I used
> to guide my check.

On
https://www.bequiet.com/admin/ImageServer.php?ID=261cba15636@be-quiet.net&.jpg
there's no number for the clearance on the exhaust side, but it looks
like it's about 45mm.

But I can't find out whether the cooler has enough clearance for the
VRM. I found no dimensions on the ASUS, Amazon, or Newegg web sites.

On the ASUS web site, I found a manual for the motherboard, and I looked
at it in the hope that I could find a picture showing the VRM height,
but no such luck.

How can I find out?

>
> Because the performance of the Noctua and the Dark Rock are
> similar, the heatsinks are almost the same weight, about
> the only difference is the Noctua has the one fan and not two.
> In each case, as the savvy shopper, you eyeball them and
> check for clearance issues. Sometimes I have to stare at
> these stupid things for hours and dig up a ton of pix, to
> feel assured enough to approve one of these. If you don't
> get these things done right, at some future time, you
> will hear whining about "I hate working inside my PC because...
> and it's all your fault" :-) Well, I hate working inside mine,
> because there's no room in there to do anything. That's a
> disadvantage of using a good cooler. If you used the Hyper212,
> there'd be a ton of room. And I don't always use big sinks -- the
> Asrock build with the VIA chipset, I used the Intel cooler
> for that, which is quite small. The CPU in that case, only
> draws 36W measured, so it can't get too warm.
>
> Your cooler is still fine. However, we changed your
> motherboard and so the clearance check needs to be repeated.

How can I? Or would it be safest to change the cooler? If so, what
cooler would you recommend?

> Remember what I said about it taking a month ? This is why.
> Constant juggling to make sure all issues are covered off.
>
> On my very first build, two parts did not mate properly
> mechanically. I had to go down into the shop, and grind the
> living shit out of a heatsink, to finish my build. Maybe
> now you understand why I'm (apparently) paranoid about details :-)
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<infu2eF8hhsU1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=52856&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#52856

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 11:15:42 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:15 UTC

On 8/10/2021 9:46 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

> On 8/9/2021 11:23 PM, Paul wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/9/2021 3:31 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:

> I went to
> https://www.bequiet.com/admin/ImageServer.php?ID=261cba15636@be-quiet.net&.jpg
> and that shows 40mm clearance, which I guess is why you said above that
> the RAM has to be less than 40mm high. But as I said, I don't know how
> to find out what the RAM height is.
>
> If I can't find out the RAM height, can you recommend some other RAM
> where it's possible to be sure it's under 40mm?
>
>
>> If your RAM heatsinks are
>> squat enough, then the RAM can easily be removed on demand.
>>
>> On the other side (exhaust side) of the cooler, the tail of the
>> cooler must clear the heatsink on the VRM. The MSI motherboard
>> (now off the table so to speak) had a high heatsink and I think
>> easily cleared, as the tail of the Dark Rock likely isn't leaning
>> over it. I didn't have an "eng drawing" to use, so had to
>> eyeball it. The Dark Rock main web page, has a picture of the
>> unit seated on an Aorus motherboard, and that's what I used
>> to guide my check.
>
>
> On
> https://www.bequiet.com/admin/ImageServer.php?ID=261cba15636@be-quiet.net&.jpg
> there's no number for the clearance on the exhaust side, but it looks
> like it's about 45mm.
>
> But I can't find out whether the cooler has enough clearance for the
> VRM. I found no dimensions on the ASUS, Amazon, or Newegg web sites.
>
> On the ASUS web site, I found a manual for the motherboard, and I looked
> at it in the hope that I could find a picture showing the VRM height,
> but no such luck.
>
>
> How can I find out?
>
>
>>
>> Because the performance of the Noctua and the Dark Rock are
>> similar, the heatsinks are almost the same weight, about
>> the only difference is the Noctua has the one fan and not two.
>> In each case, as the savvy shopper, you eyeball them and
>> check for clearance issues. Sometimes I have to stare at
>> these stupid things for hours and dig up a ton of pix, to
>> feel assured enough to approve one of these. If you don't
>> get these things done right, at some future time, you
>> will hear whining about "I hate working inside my PC because...
>> and it's all your fault" :-) Well, I hate working inside mine,
>> because there's no room in there to do anything. That's a
>> disadvantage of using a good cooler. If you used the Hyper212,
>> there'd be a ton of room. And I don't always use big sinks -- the
>> Asrock build with the VIA chipset, I used the Intel cooler
>> for that, which is quite small. The CPU in that case, only
>> draws 36W measured, so it can't get too warm.
>>
>> Your cooler is still fine. However, we changed your
>> motherboard and so the clearance check needs to be repeated.
>
>
> How can I? Or would it be safest to change the cooler? If so, what
> cooler would you recommend?

Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's web
site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems with the
RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It didn't report
any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be trusted for this?

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<seuugm$k99$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:27:35 -0400
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 by: Paul - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 22:27 UTC

Ken Blake wrote:

> I don't see anything there that seems to make it a better choice for me,
> so I don't think it's worth the extra $100.
>
> So I'm going to keep the ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th
> Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN,
> Front Panel USB 3.2 Gen 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support) on my
> shopping list, unless you or someone else comes up with a better
> suggestion.
>
> And when I do Google searches for "cheap" or "budget" video cards,
> almost everything is over $500, with an occasional choice around $200.
> I'm not willing to spend that much, so unless you or someone else comes
> up with a good choice that's not over $100 one of these days, I'll stick
> with the motherboard video support.
>
> The ASUS Prime Z590-P apparently has support for two monitors, one using
> an HDMI port, and one a display port. As I said, both my monitors have
> VGA connectors and I have an HDMI adapter on one of them. So I'll need
> to buy a display port adapter for the other. There's a Moread
> DisplayPort (DP) to VGA Adapter, Gold-Plated Display Port to VGA Adapter
> (Male to Female) Compatible with Computer, Desktop, Laptop, PC, Monitor,
> Projector, HDTV - Black for sale on Amazon for only $7.99. Is that OK,
> or is there some reason why I should buy a more expensive one?

I've not had a problem with the adapters purchased so far,
but I've probably been paying double to triple that much.

There is no magical way to weasel out of that one. DP is digital.
VGA is analog. There has to be a chip inside the adapter, plus
money for two connectors. It's hard to imagine the price in the
example, covers the material cost, so there must be some
"large shipping fee" or something, to make up the diff.

It's only if it does not function at all, that they could
save money.

And the video card market is a mess, with the video card
manufacturers scrambling to "create" products to sell, using
"leftover sand in desk drawers" at the plant. Selling $3000
video cards just isn't going to make payroll. They tried to use
GT710 cards to fill a market hole, and the GT1030 with just
two connectors on the faceplate, is hardly a winner, especially
as every stinking one of those uses DDR4 instead of GDDR5.

The GT 1030 cards have the DVI connector on them, and that
isn't exactly the best choice to impress people. Lots of people
can afford higher resolution monitors than I've got, and those
people would be pissed to find a DVI on there. If the DVI
standard had kept up on clock rates and reinvented itself,
it might be different. But it's kind of a moribund connector.
Obviously a marketing person thinks differently on the matter.
I feel, if they're going to waste faceplate space, they
could at least put HDMI, DP, DVI, instead of just HDMI, DVI.

It's almost like nothing announced, gets shipped here any more.

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<seuv9s$p20$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
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Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
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In-Reply-To: <infu2eF8hhsU1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Paul - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 22:41 UTC

Ken Blake wrote:

> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's web
> site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems with the
> RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It didn't report
> any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be trusted for this?

While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.

While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.

*******

https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1

Item Dimensions
Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm

3.4 cm = 34 mm and is less than the 40mm height limit.

That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
there will not be a crunching sound :-)

Project is still a "go".

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<ingg0vFc2guU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 16:22:07 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 23:22 UTC

On 8/10/2021 3:27 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> I don't see anything there that seems to make it a better choice for me,
>> so I don't think it's worth the extra $100.
>>
>> So I'm going to keep the ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th
>> Gen) ATX Motherboard (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN,
>> Front Panel USB 3.2 Gen 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support) on my
>> shopping list, unless you or someone else comes up with a better
>> suggestion.
>>
>> And when I do Google searches for "cheap" or "budget" video cards,
>> almost everything is over $500, with an occasional choice around $200.
>> I'm not willing to spend that much, so unless you or someone else comes
>> up with a good choice that's not over $100 one of these days, I'll stick
>> with the motherboard video support.
>>
>> The ASUS Prime Z590-P apparently has support for two monitors, one using
>> an HDMI port, and one a display port. As I said, both my monitors have
>> VGA connectors and I have an HDMI adapter on one of them. So I'll need
>> to buy a display port adapter for the other. There's a Moread
>> DisplayPort (DP) to VGA Adapter, Gold-Plated Display Port to VGA Adapter
>> (Male to Female) Compatible with Computer, Desktop, Laptop, PC, Monitor,
>> Projector, HDTV - Black for sale on Amazon for only $7.99. Is that OK,
>> or is there some reason why I should buy a more expensive one?
>
> I've not had a problem with the adapters purchased so far,
> but I've probably been paying double to triple that much.
>
> There is no magical way to weasel out of that one. DP is digital.
> VGA is analog. There has to be a chip inside the adapter, plus
> money for two connectors. It's hard to imagine the price in the
> example, covers the material cost, so there must be some
> "large shipping fee" or something, to make up the diff.

Nope. I'm an Amazon Prime member. There's no shipping fee.

> It's only if it does not function at all, that they could
> save money.
>
> And the video card market is a mess, with the video card
> manufacturers scrambling to "create" products to sell, using
> "leftover sand in desk drawers" at the plant. Selling $3000
> video cards just isn't going to make payroll. They tried to use
> GT710 cards to fill a market hole, and the GT1030 with just
> two connectors on the faceplate, is hardly a winner, especially
> as every stinking one of those uses DDR4 instead of GDDR5.
>
> The GT 1030 cards have the DVI connector on them, and that
> isn't exactly the best choice to impress people. Lots of people
> can afford higher resolution monitors than I've got, and those
> people would be pissed to find a DVI on there. If the DVI
> standard had kept up on clock rates and reinvented itself,
> it might be different. But it's kind of a moribund connector.
> Obviously a marketing person thinks differently on the matter.
> I feel, if they're going to waste faceplate space, they
> could at least put HDMI, DP, DVI, instead of just HDMI, DVI.
>
> It's almost like nothing announced, gets shipped here any more.
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<inggajFc455U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 16:27:15 -0700
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Content-Language: en-US
 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 10 Aug 2021 23:27 UTC

On 8/10/2021 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's web
>> site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems with the
>> RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It didn't report
>> any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be trusted for this?
>
> While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
> on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
> for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
> standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
> as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.
>
> While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
> very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.
>
> *******
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
>
> Item Dimensions
> Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm

Thanks very much. I don't know how I missed that when I looked, but I did.

>
> 3.4 cm = 34 mm

LOL. I'm hardware ignorant, but yes, I know that.

> and is less than the 40mm height limit.
>
> That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
> is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
> there will not be a crunching sound :-)
>
> Project is still a "go".
>

Great! You don't think I need to worry about a potential problem with
the exhaust side fitting over the VRM?

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<sev5m1$qeq$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 20:29:52 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <inggajFc455U1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Paul - Wed, 11 Aug 2021 00:29 UTC

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/10/2021 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's web
>>> site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems with the
>>> RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It didn't
>>> report any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be trusted
>>> for this?
>>
>> While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
>> on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
>> for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
>> standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
>> as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.
>>
>> While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
>> very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
>>
>>
>> Item Dimensions
>> Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm
>
>
> Thanks very much. I don't know how I missed that when I looked, but I did.
>
>
>>
>> 3.4 cm = 34 mm
>
>
> LOL. I'm hardware ignorant, but yes, I know that.
>
>
>> and is less than the 40mm height limit.
>>
>> That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
>> is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
>> there will not be a crunching sound :-)
>>
>> Project is still a "go".
>>
>
>
> Great! You don't think I need to worry about a potential problem with
> the exhaust side fitting over the VRM?
>

The MSI motherboard was the one with the potential problem.

The Prime isn't quite as bad.

You can use the picture of your cooler sitting on the Aorus
motherboard on the cooler manufacturer site, to gauge the fit
on other Z590 motherboards. Visual comparison is only approximate
mind you, and it can take quite a few different "views" to figure
it out.

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<sf5kc3$tct$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 07:17:21 -0400
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 by: Paul - Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:17 UTC

Ken Blake wrote:

> Speaking of cases and power supplies, I'm planning on getting a new
> computer (my present one isn't compatible with Windows 11), probably
> next month.
>
> Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>
> Thermaltake Toughpower GF1 850W 80+ Gold SLI/Crossfire Ready Ultra Quiet
> 140mm Hydraulic Bearing Smart Zero Fan Full Modular Power Supply
>
> Motherboard - ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
> Micro ATX Intel motherboard
>
> CPU Intel Core i9-10900
>
> CPU Cooler - be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
> Wings - PWM Fan - 135mm
>
> RAM - CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
> 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>
> M2 Drive - Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3
>
> DVD Drive - ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
> BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive
>
> No graphics card, two VGA monitors.
>
> two 2TB hard drives + 2TB M.2 PCIe4 Firecuda 520
>
> The total cost should be just under $1,500. I'll keep my present
> keyboard, mouse, and two 24" monitors, all of which I like.
>
> With the help of a friend who is much younger and is much better at this
> sort of thing than I am, I'll build it. (Actually, he'll probably do
> most of the building).
>
> I'll have a total of 32GB of RAM, and 6GB of disk space, and both are
> more than I need now, but I like to plan ahead for the
> future.
> --
> Ken

Firecuda 520 needs 11th generation processor for CPU-interface PCIE4 lanes

That's 11900 rather than 10900. The 10900 results in the M.2 socket next
to the processor, not working. There is one Gigabyte brand board that
uses a switch to solve this, but not in a satisfactory way. And I notice
this detail is catching home builders off guard, as they're reaming the
motherboard in Newegg reviews for "M.2 near CPU does not work". That detail
is in the manuals, if you read enough of those manuals.

One difference is, 11900 is 8C 16T as a processor, whereas
10900 is 10C 20T as a processor

and that is only important, in as much as it fools Windows 11
into allocating one more core for maintenance work. (If a
maintenance activity was multi-threaded, this would help a tiny
bit with it finishing faster. Unfortunately, Windows Update
is an example of something that cannot be accelerated that way.
Only turboing up to 5.2GHz helps, and that doesn't help an
infinite amount.)

*******

10900 is tenth generation. 11900 is eleventh generation (PCIe 4 to Firecuda 520)

10th & 11th Gen Processor Single Multi Rip
PL1 Power (W) PL2 Power (W) Tau(Sec) MSRP? Thread Thread Offs
Core i9-10900K 125 250 56 $488.00 3164 23944 $540 \__ PCIe3 M.2
Core i9-10900 65 224 28 $439.00 3073 20815 $420 /
Core i9-11900K 125 251 56 $539.00 3490 25554 $550 \__ PCIe4 M.2
Core i9-11900 65 224 28/56 $439.00 3488 23535 $530 /

(One of many articles, describing the hell of trying to bench or
compare computing solutions, when the power numbers are all over the place)

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16343/intel-core-i710700-vs-core-i710700k-review-is-65w-comet-lake-an-option/2

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13544/why-intel-processors-draw-more-power-than-expected-tdp-turbo

(eye-opener, on what some of the motherboards allow. This could allow your 2.8GHz
CPU choice, to run at 3.6 or 3.7GHz all day long, assuming cooling works. Raises
TDP from 65W to 125W or so, makes better usage of monster cooler.)

https://wccftech.com/intel-comet-lake-non-k-cpus-power-limit-overclocking-asus-asrock-msi-h470-b460-h410-motherboards-detailed/

The choices determine whether we can justify the Dark Rock monster
cooler or not. With the "Intel default" choice, perhaps a smaller
cooler could be used (not a Hyper212).

Four coolers. The "watts" rating is not the best method,
while Theta_R would be preferred. Watts rating used,
if not all coolers can be compared fairly.
nh-D15 does support LGA1200.

noctua nh-D15 183 watts 0.09 ? 1.320kg tower, conservative watts estimate, does support LGA1200
dark rock pro 4 250 watts 0.11 ? 1.130kg tower-side-exhaust
dark rock TF 2 230 watts 0.945kg blow-down-on-VCore (ships Aug10 2021)
noctua nh-u14s 130 watts 0.115C/W 0.771kg tower-side-single-fan

The two companies obviously do not do "Watts estimates" the same way.
But nobody gives theta_R, even though they know exactly what that is.

TF-2 pressing against a DIMM... From review Tuesday Aug10 2021

https://static.tweaktown.com/content/9/8/9891_24_be-quiet-dark-rock-tf-2-cpu-cooler-review.jpg

( https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/9891/be-quiet-dark-rock-tf-2-cpu-cooler/index.html )

But it does cool the guys VCore right down to ambient :-) Pretty funny.
Obviously not a load test.

In the review here, the reviewer manages to turn the cooler, so nothing bumps.
This motherboard is a Z490 with LGA1200 socket. Coolers vary in degree of
rotation. Some rotate to the four compass points. Some rotate 180 degrees
only. And some don't rotate at all. The mounting scheme helps determine
rotation options. Sometimes when they rotate to the four compass points,
things get in the way of some of the choices.

(Assumes bottom mounting plate doesn't crush any SMT caps. Needs to be
checked of course.) When rotating a cooler, the builder has to check that
no cylindrical caps are in the way, nor SMT caps under the bottom plate.
I notice the bloody PCB does not have the white paint line showing
the keep-out area, where the big caps are supposed to stay out of.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/be-quiet-dark-rock-tf-2-review

What do we learn ? Well, not much.

The B560 and Z590 may have differences in BIOS thermal settings.
The VCore design allows slightly different capabilities. (That's
because some of the boards have more DrMOS phases than others.
All the way from 11+2 to 14+2.)

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/intel-core-i7-10700-draws-more-power-than-the-10700k-under-load-despite-lower-tdp-rating/

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/intel-11th-gen-rocket-lake-s-cpu-power-consumption-difference-b-w-turbo-boost-thermal-velocity-boost-and-adaptive-boost/

The dark rock pro 4 ensures the CPU stays cool, but does
nothing for the VCore components. The TF 2 is less good
as a CPU cooler, but cools VCore a bit. The TF 2 is also
lighter. More than a kilogram (2.2 pounds) is not particularly
the best thing for the socket area. I built a little stand
to hold up the nh-D15 on mine, but this also makes it hard to
do anything inside the case. I would redesign the heat
sink suspension if doing it again, and try another method.
To do it right, requires drilling the computer case, and
that means the entire thing has to be taken apart again,
so the shavings don't go places they don't belong.

For the project that used the cheesy Intel cooler (65W), of course
stuff like that doesn't need anything to hold it up, and
the PCB is strong enough for the job. It's when the heatsink
is extremely heavy, and the computer case stands upright,
the weight "tugs" on the heatsink. It's suspended sideways
when the case stands up.

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<innfr4FpfdkU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 08:01:55 -0700
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Content-Language: en-US
 by: Ken Blake - Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:01 UTC

On 8/13/2021 4:17 AM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Speaking of cases and power supplies, I'm planning on getting a new
>> computer (my present one isn't compatible with Windows 11), probably
>> next month.
>>
>> Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>>
>> Thermaltake Toughpower GF1 850W 80+ Gold SLI/Crossfire Ready Ultra Quiet
>> 140mm Hydraulic Bearing Smart Zero Fan Full Modular Power Supply
>>
>> Motherboard - ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
>> Micro ATX Intel motherboard
>>
>> CPU Intel Core i9-10900
>>
>> CPU Cooler - be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
>> Wings - PWM Fan - 135mm
>>
>> RAM - CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
>> 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>>
>> M2 Drive - Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
>> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3
>>
>> DVD Drive - ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
>> BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive
>>
>> No graphics card, two VGA monitors.
>>
>> two 2TB hard drives + 2TB M.2 PCIe4 Firecuda 520
>>
>> The total cost should be just under $1,500. I'll keep my present
>> keyboard, mouse, and two 24" monitors, all of which I like.
>>
>> With the help of a friend who is much younger and is much better at this
>> sort of thing than I am, I'll build it. (Actually, he'll probably do
>> most of the building).
>>
>> I'll have a total of 32GB of RAM, and 6GB of disk space, and both are
>> more than I need now, but I like to plan ahead for the
>> future.
>> --
>> Ken
>
> Firecuda 520 needs 11th generation processor for CPU-interface PCIE4 lanes
>
> That's 11900 rather than 10900.

Ouch! That's a substantial increment in price. But if that's what I
need, so be it. I just modified my shopping list.

Thanks very much.

The 10900 results in the M.2 socket next
> to the processor, not working. There is one Gigabyte brand board that
> uses a switch to solve this, but not in a satisfactory way. And I notice
> this detail is catching home builders off guard, as they're reaming the
> motherboard in Newegg reviews for "M.2 near CPU does not work". That detail
> is in the manuals, if you read enough of those manuals.
>
> One difference is, 11900 is 8C 16T as a processor, whereas
> 10900 is 10C 20T as a processor
>
> and that is only important, in as much as it fools Windows 11
> into allocating one more core for maintenance work. (If a
> maintenance activity was multi-threaded, this would help a tiny
> bit with it finishing faster. Unfortunately, Windows Update
> is an example of something that cannot be accelerated that way.
> Only turboing up to 5.2GHz helps, and that doesn't help an
> infinite amount.)
>
> *******
>
> 10900 is tenth generation. 11900 is eleventh generation (PCIe 4 to Firecuda 520)
>
> 10th & 11th Gen Processor Single Multi Rip
> PL1 Power (W) PL2 Power (W) Tau(Sec) MSRP? Thread Thread Offs
> Core i9-10900K 125 250 56 $488.00 3164 23944 $540 \__ PCIe3 M.2
> Core i9-10900 65 224 28 $439.00 3073 20815 $420 /
> Core i9-11900K 125 251 56 $539.00 3490 25554 $550 \__ PCIe4 M.2
> Core i9-11900 65 224 28/56 $439.00 3488 23535 $530 /
>
> (One of many articles, describing the hell of trying to bench or
> compare computing solutions, when the power numbers are all over the place)
>
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/16343/intel-core-i710700-vs-core-i710700k-review-is-65w-comet-lake-an-option/2
>
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/13544/why-intel-processors-draw-more-power-than-expected-tdp-turbo
>
> (eye-opener, on what some of the motherboards allow. This could allow your 2.8GHz
> CPU choice, to run at 3.6 or 3.7GHz all day long, assuming cooling works. Raises
> TDP from 65W to 125W or so, makes better usage of monster cooler.)
>
> https://wccftech.com/intel-comet-lake-non-k-cpus-power-limit-overclocking-asus-asrock-msi-h470-b460-h410-motherboards-detailed/
>
> The choices determine whether we can justify the Dark Rock monster
> cooler or not. With the "Intel default" choice, perhaps a smaller
> cooler could be used (not a Hyper212).
>
> Four coolers. The "watts" rating is not the best method,
> while Theta_R would be preferred. Watts rating used,
> if not all coolers can be compared fairly.
> nh-D15 does support LGA1200.
>
> noctua nh-D15 183 watts 0.09 ? 1.320kg tower, conservative watts estimate, does support LGA1200
> dark rock pro 4 250 watts 0.11 ? 1.130kg tower-side-exhaust
> dark rock TF 2 230 watts 0.945kg blow-down-on-VCore (ships Aug10 2021)
> noctua nh-u14s 130 watts 0.115C/W 0.771kg tower-side-single-fan
>
> The two companies obviously do not do "Watts estimates" the same way.
> But nobody gives theta_R, even though they know exactly what that is.
>
> TF-2 pressing against a DIMM... From review Tuesday Aug10 2021
>
> https://static.tweaktown.com/content/9/8/9891_24_be-quiet-dark-rock-tf-2-cpu-cooler-review.jpg
>
> ( https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/9891/be-quiet-dark-rock-tf-2-cpu-cooler/index.html )
>
> But it does cool the guys VCore right down to ambient :-) Pretty funny.
> Obviously not a load test.
>
> In the review here, the reviewer manages to turn the cooler, so nothing bumps.
> This motherboard is a Z490 with LGA1200 socket. Coolers vary in degree of
> rotation. Some rotate to the four compass points. Some rotate 180 degrees
> only. And some don't rotate at all. The mounting scheme helps determine
> rotation options. Sometimes when they rotate to the four compass points,
> things get in the way of some of the choices.
>
> (Assumes bottom mounting plate doesn't crush any SMT caps. Needs to be
> checked of course.) When rotating a cooler, the builder has to check that
> no cylindrical caps are in the way, nor SMT caps under the bottom plate.
> I notice the bloody PCB does not have the white paint line showing
> the keep-out area, where the big caps are supposed to stay out of.
>
> https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/be-quiet-dark-rock-tf-2-review
>
> What do we learn ? Well, not much.
>
> The B560 and Z590 may have differences in BIOS thermal settings.
> The VCore design allows slightly different capabilities. (That's
> because some of the boards have more DrMOS phases than others.
> All the way from 11+2 to 14+2.)
>
> https://www.hardwaretimes.com/intel-core-i7-10700-draws-more-power-than-the-10700k-under-load-despite-lower-tdp-rating/
>
> https://www.hardwaretimes.com/intel-11th-gen-rocket-lake-s-cpu-power-consumption-difference-b-w-turbo-boost-thermal-velocity-boost-and-adaptive-boost/
>
> The dark rock pro 4 ensures the CPU stays cool, but does
> nothing for the VCore components. The TF 2 is less good
> as a CPU cooler, but cools VCore a bit. The TF 2 is also
> lighter. More than a kilogram (2.2 pounds) is not particularly
> the best thing for the socket area. I built a little stand
> to hold up the nh-D15 on mine, but this also makes it hard to
> do anything inside the case. I would redesign the heat
> sink suspension if doing it again, and try another method.
> To do it right, requires drilling the computer case, and
> that means the entire thing has to be taken apart again,
> so the shavings don't go places they don't belong.
>
> For the project that used the cheesy Intel cooler (65W), of course
> stuff like that doesn't need anything to hold it up, and
> the PCB is strong enough for the job. It's when the heatsink
> is extremely heavy, and the computer case stands upright,
> the weight "tugs" on the heatsink. It's suspended sideways
> when the case stands up.
>
> Paul
>


Click here to read the complete article
Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<sfhpl0$k0k$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 22:01:06 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <sev5m1$qeq$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Paul - Wed, 18 Aug 2021 02:01 UTC

Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/10/2021 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's
>>>> web site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems
>>>> with the RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It
>>>> didn't report any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be
>>>> trusted for this?
>>>
>>> While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
>>> on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
>>> for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
>>> standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
>>> as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.
>>>
>>> While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
>>> very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.
>>>
>>> *******
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
>>>
>>>
>>> Item Dimensions
>>> Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm
>>
>>
>> Thanks very much. I don't know how I missed that when I looked, but I
>> did.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 3.4 cm = 34 mm
>>
>>
>> LOL. I'm hardware ignorant, but yes, I know that.
>>
>>
>>> and is less than the 40mm height limit.
>>>
>>> That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
>>> is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
>>> there will not be a crunching sound :-)
>>>
>>> Project is still a "go".
>>>
>>
>>
>> Great! You don't think I need to worry about a potential problem with
>> the exhaust side fitting over the VRM?
>>
>
> The MSI motherboard was the one with the potential problem.
>
> The Prime isn't quite as bad.
>
> You can use the picture of your cooler sitting on the Aorus
> motherboard on the cooler manufacturer site, to gauge the fit
> on other Z590 motherboards. Visual comparison is only approximate
> mind you, and it can take quite a few different "views" to figure
> it out.
>
> Paul

This one is a hoot. Just had to share.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/evga-z590-dark

They put real heatsinks on the voltage regulators.

The board is too expensive for mainstream, but it's fun
to see design the way they used to do it. Copper heatsinks.

It would be considered overkill, compared to "what you could
get away with", but tanks like that, you don't have to
worry about some part of them getting "too hot".

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:05:04 -0700
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In-Reply-To: <inggajFc455U1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Ken Blake - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 00:05 UTC

On 8/10/2021 4:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/10/2021 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's web
>>> site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems with the
>>> RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It didn't report
>>> any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be trusted for this?
>>
>> While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
>> on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
>> for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
>> standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
>> as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.
>>
>> While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
>> very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
>>
>> Item Dimensions
>> Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm
>
>
> Thanks very much. I don't know how I missed that when I looked, but I did.
>
>
>>
>> 3.4 cm = 34 mm
>
>
> LOL. I'm hardware ignorant, but yes, I know that.
>
>
>> and is less than the 40mm height limit.
>>
>> That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
>> is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
>> there will not be a crunching sound :-)
>>
>> Project is still a "go".
>>
>
>
> Great! You don't think I need to worry about a potential problem with
> the exhaust side fitting over the VRM?

An update an my new computer's components and a couple of problems I'm
looking for help with.

For those who don't remember, thee are the components I bought:

Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
PH-ES614P_BK,Black

Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified,
Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)

Motherboard ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX
Motherboard (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel
USB 3.2 Gen 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)

CPU Intel Core i9-11900

CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm

RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4 28800)
Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18

M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State Drive
SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3

DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive

They all arrived a few days ago, and my friend assembled them for me (an
aside, which has nothing to do with my problems, but building the
computer was a lot more complicated than the last time I built one, some
20 years or so ago; I'm glad I didn't try to do it myself.)

It's now all put together except for adding the drive from my present
computer. Almost everything seems fine, except for a few remaining
problems that I hope someone here can help me with:

1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice to
boot from in the BIOS.

2. When I plus in an external USB drive, the computer also sees it, but
again, I can't set it as a drive to boot from in the BIOS.

I've used Windows Image Backup to create an external USB drive with the
image on it and a DVD to but from to restore it.

3. Since I couldn't boot forom the DVD I created, I tried creating a
bootable thumb drive to use instead. When I go to "Setup Back Drive) it
does't show the thumb drive and give me the chance to create a bootable
drive from it.

4. I tried creating an image backup on a thumb drive to use to restore
instead. That also didn't work.

Everything I've tried was using the built-in Windows system image
capability. Should I try Macrium Reflect instead? Is that likely to
provide a workable alternative where what Windows provides didn't?

All help and suggestions are welcomed.

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

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From: rlamont@shaw.ca (Rene Lamontagne)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 19:51:20 -0500
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Content-Language: en-US
 by: Rene Lamontagne - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 00:51 UTC

On 2021-09-05 7:05 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/10/2021 4:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/10/2021 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's
>>>> web site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems
>>>> with the RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It
>>>> didn't report any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be
>>>> trusted for this?
>>>
>>> While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
>>> on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
>>> for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
>>> standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
>>> as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.
>>>
>>> While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
>>> very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.
>>>
>>> *******
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
>>>
>>>
>>>      Item Dimensions
>>>      Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm
>>
>>
>> Thanks very much. I don't know how I missed that when I looked, but I
>> did.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>      3.4 cm = 34 mm
>>
>>
>> LOL. I'm hardware ignorant, but yes, I know that.
>>
>>
>>> and is less than the 40mm height limit.
>>>
>>> That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
>>> is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
>>> there will not be a crunching sound :-)
>>>
>>> Project is still a "go".
>>>
>>
>>
>> Great! You don't think I need to worry about a potential problem with
>> the exhaust side fitting over the VRM?
>
>
>
> An update an my new computer's components and a couple of problems I'm
> looking for help with.
>
> For those who don't remember, thee are the components I bought:
>
> Case    Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
> PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>
> Power Supply    Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)
>
> Motherboard    ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX
> Motherboard (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel
> USB 3.2 Gen 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)
>
> CPU    Intel Core i9-11900
>
> CPU Cooler    be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
> Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm
>
> RAM    CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
> 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>
> M2 Drive    Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3
>
> DVD Drive    ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
> BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive
>
> They all arrived a few days ago, and my friend assembled them for me (an
> aside, which has nothing to do with my problems, but building the
> computer was a lot more complicated than the last time I built one, some
> 20 years or so ago; I'm glad I didn't try to do it myself.)
>
> It's now all put together except for adding the drive from my present
> computer. Almost everything seems fine, except for a few remaining
> problems that I hope someone here can help me with:
>
> 1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice to
> boot from in the BIOS.
>
> 2. When I plus in an external USB drive, the computer also sees it, but
> again, I can't set it as a drive to boot from in the BIOS.
>
>
>
> I've used Windows Image Backup to create an external USB drive with the
> image on it and a DVD to but from to restore it.
>
> 3. Since I couldn't boot forom the DVD I created, I tried creating a
> bootable thumb drive to use instead. When I go to "Setup Back Drive) it
> does't show the thumb drive and give me the chance to create a bootable
> drive from it.
>
> 4. I tried creating an image backup on a thumb drive to use to restore
> instead. That also didn't work.
>
> Everything I've tried was using the built-in Windows system image
> capability. Should I try Macrium Reflect instead? Is that likely to
> provide a workable alternative where what Windows provides didn't?
>
> All help and suggestions are welcomed.
>
>
>

Hi Ken, glad to hear you have it all bolted together and running.

Now enter your UEFI once in you need to go to advanced section, F7 on
my Z390, then go to the Boot section where you should find Boot option
priorities, this is where you choose the boot order, set your DVD as
first then your boot NVMe and others . once set reboot and your DVD
should boot first if it has a bootable disc.

Holding down the F8 key during boot should also bring up your boot menu
and all your bootable drives so you can pick and boot your choice

I am basing this on 2 ,1 year old ASUS M/Bs and they are identical
UEFI,s or nearly so. yours may be slightly different . The UEFI is a
very large and dark forest, easy to get lost in. :-)
Hope that gives you a start.

Rene

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<sh3pr7$faf$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=54951&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#54951

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From: youtube@youtube.com (Carey's Fan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:00:00 +0000
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <sh3pr7$faf$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Carey's Fan - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:00 UTC

On 06/09/2021 01:05, Ken Blake wrote:
> 1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice to
> boot from in the BIOS.

Did you see page 57 of the manual?

<https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/13MANUAL/PRIME_PRO_TUF_GAMING_Intel_500_Series_BIOS_EM_WEB_EN.pdf>

F8 Function key allows you to choose the boot option on the fly but you
want is hard wired so you need to set the priorities in the BIOS. Please
read page 57 and see if it makes sense. You need to select the drop-down
items in Set Up. The picture is on page 55 and this item is the last
item. Currently it is EZMode (Easy Mode) but when you click the
drop-down button it will give you the options for DVD drive if it can
find it.

How much did you pay to build this machine? I mean the labor cost of the
technician or did he just do it for free? You could have asked Carey
Holzman <https://www.youtube.com/c/CareyHolzman/videos> to build it for
you and he would have done it for you in 48 hours and also give you a
video of how he has done all this. He charges for the service as he is
running a business.

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<ipl8gvFq8frU1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=54952&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#54952

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!lilly.ping.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: rlamont@shaw.ca (Rene Lamontagne)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:17:18 -0500
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 by: Rene Lamontagne - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:17 UTC

On 2021-09-05 7:51 p.m., Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-09-05 7:05 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/10/2021 4:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2021 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's
>>>>> web site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems
>>>>> with the RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It
>>>>> didn't report any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be
>>>>> trusted for this?
>>>>
>>>> While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
>>>> on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
>>>> for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
>>>> standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
>>>> as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.
>>>>
>>>> While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
>>>> very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.
>>>>
>>>> *******
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Item Dimensions
>>>>      Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks very much. I don't know how I missed that when I looked, but I
>>> did.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>      3.4 cm = 34 mm
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL. I'm hardware ignorant, but yes, I know that.
>>>
>>>
>>>> and is less than the 40mm height limit.
>>>>
>>>> That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
>>>> is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
>>>> there will not be a crunching sound :-)
>>>>
>>>> Project is still a "go".
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great! You don't think I need to worry about a potential problem with
>>> the exhaust side fitting over the VRM?
>>
>>
>>
>> An update an my new computer's components and a couple of problems I'm
>> looking for help with.
>>
>> For those who don't remember, thee are the components I bought:
>>
>> Case    Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>>
>> Power Supply    Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)
>>
>> Motherboard    ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX
>> Motherboard (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front
>> Panel USB 3.2 Gen 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)
>>
>> CPU    Intel Core i9-11900
>>
>> CPU Cooler    be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with
>> Silent Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>
>> RAM    CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
>> 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>>
>> M2 Drive    Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
>> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3
>>
>> DVD Drive    ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA
>> - BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive
>>
>> They all arrived a few days ago, and my friend assembled them for me
>> (an aside, which has nothing to do with my problems, but building the
>> computer was a lot more complicated than the last time I built one,
>> some 20 years or so ago; I'm glad I didn't try to do it myself.)
>>
>> It's now all put together except for adding the drive from my present
>> computer. Almost everything seems fine, except for a few remaining
>> problems that I hope someone here can help me with:
>>
>> 1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice to
>> boot from in the BIOS.
>>
>> 2. When I plus in an external USB drive, the computer also sees it,
>> but again, I can't set it as a drive to boot from in the BIOS.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've used Windows Image Backup to create an external USB drive with
>> the image on it and a DVD to but from to restore it.
>>
>> 3. Since I couldn't boot forom the DVD I created, I tried creating a
>> bootable thumb drive to use instead. When I go to "Setup Back Drive)
>> it does't show the thumb drive and give me the chance to create a
>> bootable drive from it.
>>
>> 4. I tried creating an image backup on a thumb drive to use to restore
>> instead. That also didn't work.
>>
>> Everything I've tried was using the built-in Windows system image
>> capability. Should I try Macrium Reflect instead? Is that likely to
>> provide a workable alternative where what Windows provides didn't?
>>
>> All help and suggestions are welcomed.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi Ken, glad to hear you have it all bolted together and running.
>
> Now enter your UEFI  once in you need to go to advanced section, F7 on
> my Z390, then go to the Boot section where you should find Boot option
> priorities, this is where you choose the boot order, set your DVD as
> first then your boot NVMe and others . once set reboot and  your DVD
> should boot first if it has a bootable disc.
>
> Holding down the F8 key during boot should also bring up  your boot menu
> and all your bootable drives so you can pick and boot your choice
>
> I am basing this on 2 ,1 year old  ASUS M/Bs and they are identical
> UEFI,s or nearly so.  yours may be slightly different . The UEFI is a
> very large and dark forest, easy to get lost in. :-)
> Hope that gives you a start.
>
> Rene
>

Should have mentioned that USB bootable thumb drives will also show up
in your F8 boot menu if bootable and can be booted from there.

Rene

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<sh3tk6$ki9$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 22:15:34 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <sh3pr7$faf$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Paul - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 02:15 UTC

Carey's Fan wrote:
> On 06/09/2021 01:05, Ken Blake wrote:
>> 1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice to
>> boot from in the BIOS.
>
>
> Did you see page 57 of the manual?
>
> <https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/13MANUAL/PRIME_PRO_TUF_GAMING_Intel_500_Series_BIOS_EM_WEB_EN.pdf>
>
> F8 Function key allows you to choose the boot option on the fly but you
> want is hard wired so you need to set the priorities in the BIOS. Please
> read page 57 and see if it makes sense. You need to select the drop-down
> items in Set Up. The picture is on page 55 and this item is the last
> item. Currently it is EZMode (Easy Mode) but when you click the
> drop-down button it will give you the options for DVD drive if it can
> find it.
>
> How much did you pay to build this machine? I mean the labor cost of the
> technician or did he just do it for free? You could have asked Carey
> Holzman <https://www.youtube.com/c/CareyHolzman/videos> to build it for
> you and he would have done it for you in 48 hours and also give you a
> video of how he has done all this. He charges for the service as he is
> running a business.

Ken has an able assistant willing to help out.
And that's who built up the computer. This is not
a shop-build.

*******

The 4.23MB generic BIOS manual is here.

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI/E18030_TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI_UM_v2_web.pdf

But it doesn't explain something. For that, we go here.

https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?96196-I-need-advice-on-CSM-and-Secure-Boot-settings

"No devices in boot list: SOLVED!

I figured out why in the pre-Windows installation environment and
with CSM disabled that I could not see any of my storage devices
in the "Boot Option Priorities" or "Boot Override" lists.

Back in the old days of Legacy BIOS booting, all storage devices
showed up in boot lists where you could arrange their priorities
and select one to boot from. Now with UEFI BIOS, only UEFI-bootable
devices show up in those lists, unless you have enabled CSM.
Disabling CSM is for UEFI-only booting, and the only devices that
show up in boot lists are devices that contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
in the root directory. That is the UEFI "boot loader". If I had
installed Windows on the Samsung 960 Pro then \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
would appear in the EFI ("System") partition of the drive, and the
boot list would show "windows Boot Manager" or "UEFI: Samsung 960 Pro"
or something like that.

The DVD drives did not show up in the boot lists with CSM disabled
because they did not contain any disks. If I insert the Acronis/WinPE
rescue disk before booting into BIOS, then the DVD drive shows up as
"UEFI: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M" because that disk contains the
directory \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi. Same for a Windows 10 Recovery thumb
drive I made for a different computer, for booting into the WinRE
environment. It shows up in the boot device list as
"UEFI: SanDisk Ultra USB 3.0 Flash Drive” because it too contains
\EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi as I’ve verified.

So with CSM disabled, the ASUS UEFI Bios will examine all HD, SSD,
USB ports, and DVD drives, looking for UEFI bootable devices that
contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.

In contrast, if CSM is enabled then all devices show up whether or
not they contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.

With CSM enabled you will then see two versions for example
"P3: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M" and "UEFI: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M",
giving you a choice of booting to the device with a Legacy BIOS boot
or a UEFI boot. The Legacy boot will not use the \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
boot application, but will instead use the application named bootmgr.

So I can in fact leave CSM disabled and install Windows, and if I ever
need to boot from an Acronis rescue disk or a Windows Recovery thumb
drive, I can either press "F2" or "DEL" and boot into bios and select
the device from the "Boot Override" list, or spam the "F8" key during
boot after the ROG logo appears, to bring up the
"Please Select Boot Device” menu which will list all devices containing
\EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.

If I ever need to boot from a non-UEFI compliant device that does not
contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi then I'd have to enable CSM first if
possible (and probably have to disable Secure Boot). That is my
understanding.

CSM IS ENABLED BY DEFAULT, so people who want a pure UEFI boot system
will want to disable CSM before installing the OS.
"

Not exactly convenient.

But it at least explains the mixed philosophy they used in the BIOS.

Paul

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<ipm089Fug0sU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=54968&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#54968

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:02:16 -0700
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In-Reply-To: <ipl708Fq0hgU1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Ken Blake - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:02 UTC

On 9/5/2021 5:51 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-09-05 7:05 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/10/2021 4:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 8/10/2021 3:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul, a friend just recommended that I try PC Builder on Newegg's
>>>>> web site. He thought it would catch any incompatibility problems
>>>>> with the RAM or VRM height and the Dark Rock Cooler. So I did. It
>>>>> didn't report any problems. Do you know whether PC Builder can be
>>>>> trusted for this?
>>>>
>>>> While there are "standards" of various sorts, the keepout areas
>>>> on motherboards (white line drawn on motherboard with an outline
>>>> for safe heatsinking area), the rules for that are not 3D. The
>>>> standards define 2D areas, which leaves the third dimension
>>>> as a "best guess" by the cooler maker.
>>>>
>>>> While I do not expect a problem, I did have to grind on my
>>>> very first heatsink, and nobody seemed to have caught that one.
>>>>
>>>> *******
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/Corsair-Vengeance-PC4-28800-Desktop-Memory/dp/B07ZPLM1R1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Item Dimensions
>>>>      Length x width x height = 13.5 cm x 0.7 cm x 3.4 cm
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks very much. I don't know how I missed that when I looked, but I
>>> did.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>      3.4 cm = 34 mm
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL. I'm hardware ignorant, but yes, I know that.
>>>
>>>
>>>> and is less than the 40mm height limit.
>>>>
>>>> That means "it fits", but we don't know if "it is convenient"
>>>> is the case or not. But at least you can fit your cooler and
>>>> there will not be a crunching sound :-)
>>>>
>>>> Project is still a "go".
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great! You don't think I need to worry about a potential problem with
>>> the exhaust side fitting over the VRM?
>>
>>
>>
>> An update an my new computer's components and a couple of problems I'm
>> looking for help with.
>>
>> For those who don't remember, thee are the components I bought:
>>
>> Case    Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
>> PH-ES614P_BK,Black
>>
>> Power Supply    Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold
>> Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA)
>>
>> Motherboard    ASUS Prime Z590-P LGA 1200 (Intel 11th/10th Gen) ATX
>> Motherboard (PCIe 4.0, 10+1 Power Stages, 3X M.2, 2.5Gb LAN, Front Panel
>> USB 3.2 Gen 2 USB Type-C, Thunderbolt 4 Support)
>>
>> CPU    Intel Core i9-11900
>>
>> CPU Cooler    be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
>> Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm
>>
>> RAM    CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4
>> 28800) Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18
>>
>> M2 Drive    Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State
>> Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3
>>
>> DVD Drive    ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
>> BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive
>>
>> They all arrived a few days ago, and my friend assembled them for me (an
>> aside, which has nothing to do with my problems, but building the
>> computer was a lot more complicated than the last time I built one, some
>> 20 years or so ago; I'm glad I didn't try to do it myself.)
>>
>> It's now all put together except for adding the drive from my present
>> computer. Almost everything seems fine, except for a few remaining
>> problems that I hope someone here can help me with:
>>
>> 1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice to
>> boot from in the BIOS.
>>
>> 2. When I plus in an external USB drive, the computer also sees it, but
>> again, I can't set it as a drive to boot from in the BIOS.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've used Windows Image Backup to create an external USB drive with the
>> image on it and a DVD to but from to restore it.
>>
>> 3. Since I couldn't boot forom the DVD I created, I tried creating a
>> bootable thumb drive to use instead. When I go to "Setup Back Drive) it
>> does't show the thumb drive and give me the chance to create a bootable
>> drive from it.
>>
>> 4. I tried creating an image backup on a thumb drive to use to restore
>> instead. That also didn't work.
>>
>> Everything I've tried was using the built-in Windows system image
>> capability. Should I try Macrium Reflect instead? Is that likely to
>> provide a workable alternative where what Windows provides didn't?
>>
>> All help and suggestions are welcomed.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi Ken, glad to hear you have it all bolted together and running.
>
> Now enter your UEFI once in you need to go to advanced section, F7 on
> my Z390, then go to the Boot section where you should find Boot option
> priorities, this is where you choose the boot order, set your DVD as
> first then your boot NVMe and others . once set reboot and your DVD
> should boot first if it has a bootable disc.
>
> Holding down the F8 key during boot should also bring up your boot menu
> and all your bootable drives so you can pick and boot your choice
>
> I am basing this on 2 ,1 year old ASUS M/Bs and they are identical
> UEFI,s or nearly so. yours may be slightly different . The UEFI is a
> very large and dark forest, easy to get lost in. :-)
> Hope that gives you a start.

Thanks, but no, that doesn't help. I guess I didn't make it clear that I
can get into the BIOS. Yes, I go the advanced section/boot order, but
the problem is that the DVD isn't listed there. There is nothing there
but the NVMe drive, and we've been unable to add the DVD to that list.

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<ipm1fqF7t2U1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=54969&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#54969

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From: ken@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:23:20 -0700
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In-Reply-To: <sh3tk6$ki9$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Ken Blake - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:23 UTC

On 9/5/2021 7:15 PM, Paul wrote:
> Carey's Fan wrote:
>> On 06/09/2021 01:05, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> 1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice to
>>> boot from in the BIOS.
>>
>>
>> Did you see page 57 of the manual?
>>
>> <https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/13MANUAL/PRIME_PRO_TUF_GAMING_Intel_500_Series_BIOS_EM_WEB_EN.pdf>
>>
>> F8 Function key allows you to choose the boot option on the fly but you
>> want is hard wired so you need to set the priorities in the BIOS. Please
>> read page 57 and see if it makes sense. You need to select the drop-down
>> items in Set Up. The picture is on page 55 and this item is the last
>> item. Currently it is EZMode (Easy Mode) but when you click the
>> drop-down button it will give you the options for DVD drive if it can
>> find it.
>>
>> How much did you pay to build this machine? I mean the labor cost of the
>> technician or did he just do it for free? You could have asked Carey
>> Holzman <https://www.youtube.com/c/CareyHolzman/videos> to build it for
>> you and he would have done it for you in 48 hours and also give you a
>> video of how he has done all this. He charges for the service as he is
>> running a business.
>
> Ken has an able assistant willing to help out.
> And that's who built up the computer. This is not
> a shop-build.

Yes, a friend. He did a agreat shop of buikding it. It took way less
than 48 hours and it cost nothing,

> *******
>
> The 4.23MB generic BIOS manual is here.
>
> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI/E18030_TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI_UM_v2_web.pdf
>
> But it doesn't explain something. For that, we go here.
>
> https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?96196-I-need-advice-on-CSM-and-Secure-Boot-settings
>
> "No devices in boot list: SOLVED!
>
> I figured out why in the pre-Windows installation environment and
> with CSM disabled that I could not see any of my storage devices
> in the "Boot Option Priorities" or "Boot Override" lists.
>
> Back in the old days of Legacy BIOS booting, all storage devices
> showed up in boot lists where you could arrange their priorities
> and select one to boot from. Now with UEFI BIOS, only UEFI-bootable
> devices show up in those lists, unless you have enabled CSM.
> Disabling CSM is for UEFI-only booting, and the only devices that
> show up in boot lists are devices that contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
> in the root directory. That is the UEFI "boot loader". If I had
> installed Windows on the Samsung 960 Pro then \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
> would appear in the EFI ("System") partition of the drive, and the
> boot list would show "windows Boot Manager" or "UEFI: Samsung 960 Pro"
> or something like that.
>
> The DVD drives did not show up in the boot lists with CSM disabled
> because they did not contain any disks. If I insert the Acronis/WinPE
> rescue disk before booting into BIOS, then the DVD drive shows up as
> "UEFI: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M" because that disk contains the
> directory \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi. Same for a Windows 10 Recovery thumb
> drive I made for a different computer, for booting into the WinRE
> environment. It shows up in the boot device list as
> "UEFI: SanDisk Ultra USB 3.0 Flash Drive” because it too contains
> \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi as I’ve verified.
>
> So with CSM disabled, the ASUS UEFI Bios will examine all HD, SSD,
> USB ports, and DVD drives, looking for UEFI bootable devices that
> contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.

Thanks very much. CSM is disabled, but we couldn't find a way to enable
it. Can you tell me how to do it?

So apparently the problem is that since CSM is disabled, the DVD in the
drive must not contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi, and that's why it's not a
choice for boot order.

Perhaps I created the DVD incorrectly. Unless you can tell me how to
enable CSM, can you tell me to do it properly on my old computer, so it
can have \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi and boot and restore the system image
that is on the external USB drivve?

> In contrast, if CSM is enabled then all devices show up whether or
> not they contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.

Even if the drive has no DVD in it? That sounds like it's the way it
should be. Is there any disadvantage to having CSM enabled and keeping
it that way, assuming that I can find a way to do it?

> With CSM enabled you will then see two versions for example
> "P3: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M" and "UEFI: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M",
> giving you a choice of booting to the device with a Legacy BIOS boot
> or a UEFI boot. The Legacy boot will not use the \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
> boot application, but will instead use the application named bootmgr.
>
> So I can in fact leave CSM disabled and install Windows, and if I ever
> need to boot from an Acronis rescue disk or a Windows Recovery thumb
> drive, I can either press "F2" or "DEL" and boot into bios and select
> the device from the "Boot Override" list, or spam the "F8" key during
> boot after the ROG logo appears, to bring up the
> "Please Select Boot Device” menu which will list all devices containing
> \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.
>
> If I ever need to boot from a non-UEFI compliant device that does not
> contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi then I'd have to enable CSM first if
> possible (and probably have to disable Secure Boot). That is my
> understanding.
>
> CSM IS ENABLED BY DEFAULT, so people who want a pure UEFI boot system
> will want to disable CSM before installing the OS.
> "

But it wasn't enabled by default, unless it somehow got turned off
without our realizing that it did or knowing why it happened.

Do I need a pure UEFI boot system for Windows 11?

> Not exactly convenient.
>
> But it at least explains the mixed philosophy they used in the BIOS.
>
> Paul
>

--
Ken

Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning

<sh52ms$f07$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.rocksolidbbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=54972&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#54972

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From: nospam@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: CPU and heatsink cleaning
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 08:48:28 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <ipm1fqF7t2U1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Paul - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:48 UTC

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/5/2021 7:15 PM, Paul wrote:
>> Carey's Fan wrote:
>>> On 06/09/2021 01:05, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> 1. The computer sees the DVD drive, but I can't set it as a choice
>>>> to boot from in the BIOS.
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you see page 57 of the manual?
>>>
>>> <https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/13MANUAL/PRIME_PRO_TUF_GAMING_Intel_500_Series_BIOS_EM_WEB_EN.pdf>
>>>
>>>
>>> F8 Function key allows you to choose the boot option on the fly but
>>> you want is hard wired so you need to set the priorities in the BIOS.
>>> Please read page 57 and see if it makes sense. You need to select the
>>> drop-down items in Set Up. The picture is on page 55 and this item is
>>> the last item. Currently it is EZMode (Easy Mode) but when you click
>>> the drop-down button it will give you the options for DVD drive if it
>>> can find it.
>>>
>>> How much did you pay to build this machine? I mean the labor cost of
>>> the technician or did he just do it for free? You could have asked
>>> Carey Holzman <https://www.youtube.com/c/CareyHolzman/videos> to
>>> build it for you and he would have done it for you in 48 hours and
>>> also give you a video of how he has done all this. He charges for the
>>> service as he is running a business.
>>
>> Ken has an able assistant willing to help out.
>> And that's who built up the computer. This is not
>> a shop-build.
>
>
>
>
> Yes, a friend. He did a agreat shop of buikding it. It took way less
> than 48 hours and it cost nothing,
>
>
>> *******
>>
>> The 4.23MB generic BIOS manual is here.
>>
>> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1200/TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI/E18030_TUF_GAMING_Z590-PLUS_WIFI_UM_v2_web.pdf
>>
>>
>> But it doesn't explain something. For that, we go here.
>>
>> https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?96196-I-need-advice-on-CSM-and-Secure-Boot-settings
>>
>>
>> "No devices in boot list: SOLVED!
>>
>> I figured out why in the pre-Windows installation environment and
>> with CSM disabled that I could not see any of my storage devices
>> in the "Boot Option Priorities" or "Boot Override" lists.
>>
>> Back in the old days of Legacy BIOS booting, all storage devices
>> showed up in boot lists where you could arrange their priorities
>> and select one to boot from. Now with UEFI BIOS, only UEFI-bootable
>> devices show up in those lists, unless you have enabled CSM.
>> Disabling CSM is for UEFI-only booting, and the only devices that
>> show up in boot lists are devices that contain
>> \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
>> in the root directory. That is the UEFI "boot loader". If I had
>> installed Windows on the Samsung 960 Pro then \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
>> would appear in the EFI ("System") partition of the drive, and the
>> boot list would show "windows Boot Manager" or "UEFI: Samsung
>> 960 Pro"
>> or something like that.
>>
>> The DVD drives did not show up in the boot lists with CSM disabled
>> because they did not contain any disks. If I insert the
>> Acronis/WinPE
>> rescue disk before booting into BIOS, then the DVD drive shows
>> up as
>> "UEFI: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M" because that disk contains the
>> directory \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi. Same for a Windows 10 Recovery
>> thumb
>> drive I made for a different computer, for booting into the WinRE
>> environment. It shows up in the boot device list as
>> "UEFI: SanDisk Ultra USB 3.0 Flash Drive” because it too contains
>> \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi as I’ve verified.
>>
>> So with CSM disabled, the ASUS UEFI Bios will examine all HD, SSD,
>> USB ports, and DVD drives, looking for UEFI bootable devices that
>> contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.
>
>
> Thanks very much. CSM is disabled, but we couldn't find a way to enable
> it. Can you tell me how to do it?
>
>
> So apparently the problem is that since CSM is disabled, the DVD in the
> drive must not contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi, and that's why it's not a
> choice for boot order.
>
> Perhaps I created the DVD incorrectly. Unless you can tell me how to
> enable CSM, can you tell me to do it properly on my old computer, so it
> can have \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi and boot and restore the system image
> that is on the external USB drivve?
>
>
>
>> In contrast, if CSM is enabled then all devices show up whether or
>> not they contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.
>
>
> Even if the drive has no DVD in it? That sounds like it's the way it
> should be. Is there any disadvantage to having CSM enabled and keeping
> it that way, assuming that I can find a way to do it?
>
>
>
>> With CSM enabled you will then see two versions for example
>> "P3: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M" and "UEFI: Pioneer BD-RW BDR-209M",
>> giving you a choice of booting to the device with a Legacy BIOS
>> boot
>> or a UEFI boot. The Legacy boot will not use the
>> \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi
>> boot application, but will instead use the application named
>> bootmgr.
>>
>> So I can in fact leave CSM disabled and install Windows, and if
>> I ever
>> need to boot from an Acronis rescue disk or a Windows Recovery
>> thumb
>> drive, I can either press "F2" or "DEL" and boot into bios and
>> select
>> the device from the "Boot Override" list, or spam the "F8" key
>> during
>> boot after the ROG logo appears, to bring up the
>> "Please Select Boot Device” menu which will list all devices
>> containing
>> \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi.
>>
>> If I ever need to boot from a non-UEFI compliant device that
>> does not
>> contain \EFI\Boot\bootx64.efi then I'd have to enable CSM first if
>> possible (and probably have to disable Secure Boot). That is my
>> understanding.
>>
>> CSM IS ENABLED BY DEFAULT, so people who want a pure UEFI boot
>> system
>> will want to disable CSM before installing the OS.
>> "
>
> But it wasn't enabled by default, unless it somehow got turned off
> without our realizing that it did or knowing why it happened.
>
> Do I need a pure UEFI boot system for Windows 11?

Well, it's a new system, with a pretty cranky looking UEFI design :-)
It will require the usual experiments.

The Secure Boot setting might well be the one causing the most problem.
It looks like that setting will be causing grief for mixed mode booting
purposes.

Chapter 9.1 has Compatibility Support Module as its topic.
It looks like classes of storage devices can be assigned
a policy.

Launch CSM [Enabled] # or the other settings won't work

Boot Device Control [UEFI and Legacy OPROM]

Boot from Network Devices [Ignore] # for stuff like PXE perhaps

Boot from Storage Devices [Legacy Only] # best of a bad situation

Boot from PCI-E/PCI expansion [UEFI Only] # Boot Win11 from NVMe sled

*******

This is really not a very good situation at all,
because booting the DVD in Legacy Mode, won't
allow a UEFI install to be done. The DVD would
have to be booted in UEFI mode. If we set the
Storage Devices (SATA) to Legacy, then some older
OSes might happen to be booted that way, but not
all.

Microsoft DVDs prepared by MediaCreationTool, will be
hybrid, and can be booted in either mode. However,
the "stated policies" of Windows 11, mean that Microsoft
no longer has a need to make hybrid media. They could
easily just do UEFI media. Which then forces you to
set "Boot from Storage Devices" to [UEFI Only], and
that pretty well dooms the machine to never using
CSM at all.

Having these selections is pure silly crap. The
older approach scanned all devices, put them in the
menu for better or worse. But at least the previous
mechanism meant very few trips to the UEFI screen
to change stuff.

It's obvious this is intended to have the user
just switch this shit off entirely and have a
"pure as the driven snow, useless boot choice" situation.
Like imagine I wanted to dual boot Linux on this
bucket of bolts - this interface would drive me nuts.
I would be in there constantly, hammering stuff.


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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor