On 8/8/2021 11:06 AM, Paul wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> Sorry, I accidentally pressed "Send" before I was ready. See below for
>> the rest of what I wanted to say.
>>
>>
>>> ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND
>>>
>>> 1 x Hyper M.2 Socket (M2_1), supports M Key type
>>> Gen4 x4 (8GB/sec) with 11th Gen Intel Core Processors or
>>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) with 10th Gen Intel Core Processors
>>> 1 x Ultra M.2 Socket (M2_2), supports M Key typeto
>>> Gen3 x4 (4GB/sec) <=== off the PCH, not the CPU
>>>
>>> The M2_1 is by the audio stack and just above the video card slot.
>>> It appears to have some metal sitting above it.
>>>
>>> The M2_2 is bottom right corner, near PCH. The PCH bandwidth
>>> comes through the DMI interface, and cannot go faster than DMI.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I know next to nothing about PCH and DMI. Which socket would I
>> use--Hyper or Ultra? Is that good or bad?
>
> M2_1 comes right from the Gen.11 processor. The Gen.11 has 20 lanes Rev.4,
> 16 lanes for video, and a new 4 lane interface for an NVMe. The
> Gen.10 CPU would have to be one hell of a lot cheaper, to make
> it worthwhile buying today (as the boards where M2_1 slot stops
> working, would not be looking good - just the other NVMe slot would work).
>
> That's the combination you want, to test out the new Rev.4 rates
> on NVMe flash drives (8GB/sec max). The Gen.11 processor makes sure
> that one of the M.2 slots has a chance at stardom.
>
> Rev1.1 250MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes
> Rev.2 500MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes
> Rev.3 1000MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes M.2 at 4GB/sec (typical 2.5GB/sec)
> Rev.4 2000MB/sec per lane x 4 lanes M.2 at 8GB/sec (maybe 5GB/sec) <=== Gen.11
>
> It would be considered "a sin" to buy a Gen.11 processor and "only"
> put a Rev.3 NVMe in the slot :-) But the thing is, they want us
> to buy new PCs, and we need to "experience the full effect".
>
> If I blindfold a user and ask them to tell me what's in the
> slot, would they know ? Probably not.
>
>> I'm not interested in overclocking. But I just looked up Z590
>> motherboards on Amazon. They recommend the Gigabyte Z590I Aorus Ultra
>> (https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-Z590I-AORUS-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/dp/B08W8G5CCC/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Z590+Aorus+Ultra&qid=1628377543&sr=8-2).
>> They call it a gaming motherboard, but I assume that the word "gaming"
>> isn't significant; it just refers to speed, right?
>
> CPU CPU
> | |
> | DMI | DMI
> 4| 8| all lanes rev.3. If all output
> PCH (southbridge) PCH (southbridge) lanes used, lanes run at 1/3rd rate,
> 12| B560 24| Z590 but of course that usage pattern
> | | never ever happens. Typically the
> user uses 4 lanes of output at a time.
>
> The B560 has 4 lanes in, 12 lanes out. Peripherals connect to the 12 lanes.
>
> The Z590 has 8 lanes in, 24 lanes out. In all cases, lanes are Rev.3.
>
> The Gen.11 processor has 8 lanes out, for the DMI. This means the
> B560 uses only half of the interface, the Z590 uses the whole thing.
>
> But the question would be, do you care.
>
> The B560 PCH (southbridge), supports one M.2 slot at 4GB/sec easily.
> The Z590 PCH (southbridge), supports two M.2 slots at 4GB/sec easily.
>
> The Z590 has enough lanes left over, that more "toys" can
> be joined up. This allows the motherboard makers to create
> "tiers" of products, some more expensive than others. When
> you look at the number and speed of the USB interfaces,
> you'll be asking what the purpose of this "richness" is.
> How many of these damn things do you need ? Well, the Z590 I/O plate
> has a lot of unused space, so we're actually being ripped off.
> The purpose of having four connectors out of this collection,
> is so you can have connectors for USB sticks. A few people out
> there, keep a "fleet" of external USB drives connected, and
> they will not be happy with the unused I/O plate space with
> no place for their "fleet".
>
> USB3 500MB/sec Type A connector
> USB3 1000MB/sec Type A connector
> USB3 2000MB/sec Type C connector, dual lanes of the previous case
>
> USB4 Higher still rates...
> Thunderbolt Nobody cares at the current time...
>
> One of the motherboards has an option connector for a
> "Thunderbolt board", which is the height of foolishness.
> The Thunderbolt chip should just be put on the damn motherboard,
> we should not be teased with cheesy "option boards" in yr.2021.
>
> The unknown factor, is whether a "gamer" Z590 board, has
> a better VCore design that runs a bit cooler. Note that
> you need a particular usage pattern, to "beat the piss" out
> of VCore on these things, and if you're doing email on this
> machine all the time, it will be "cool as a cucumber". You would
> be asking yourself what I was talking about if you did email
> and stuck your finger on the VCore heatsink.
>
> You need a computer load that "cycles" in some fashion, to make the
> VCore plate get hot, cool off, get hot again, cool off again.
> Your processor has a relatively low all-cores TDP. If you run Prime95,
> the plate cools off, after the 28 second turbo has passed. But
> when Prime95 loads the next test pattern, there could be another
> short turbo burst (and Vcore heating).
>
> It's the turbo boost that gets us into messes like this.
>
> My motherboard doesn't have a very fancy turbo, but because
> of the heating effect, I turned turbo off at BIOS level.
> Mine runs at 156W continuously in Prime95 *without* turbo.
> That's different than yours, which should run 65W continuous
> after the 28 second have passed.
>
> Some boards have the tau set to infinity, which means
> a gamer board could stay at the 224W level (because the
> user goes into the BIOS and sets the controls for that).
> The boards do not do that, out of the box, the gamer ones.
> Your B560 choice for example, is likely to follow the
> proscribed tau and power level. The Z590, depending on
> price, can support more aggressive or even outside-the-warranty
> operating conditions.
>
> I don't want VCore circuits that get hot. I know they now
> have closed loop feedback and cannot go into thermal runaway,
> but I also don't want a motherboard to die on me, and years
> have passed and I can't find a replacement motherboard to
> repair it.
>
>>
>> Would that motherboard make a significant difference to me? Do you
>> recommend it? Or would you recommend some other one. It's an extra $150,
>> but I'd spring for it if it would madk a significant difference in
>> performance.
>>
>> The price I had budgeted for everything was $2,000, and I'm
>> significantly under that, so I'm open to spending a little more here and
>> there for significant improvements.
>
> I'm trying to factor in your estimated usage pattern, as
> well as include enough interesting interfaces so the thing is
> not a total bore.
>
> I don't see enough value on the Z590. First, there's the HDMI+DP
> (on your B560) versus just a single HDMI on the Z590. I'm not
> meeting your objective of driving two monitors that way. And graphics
> card available choices today are shitty, and I'm not going there.
> Integrated graphics is good enough now (won't play Crysis at 30FPS :-) ).
> There is always room for the required Crysis joke.
>
> The Z590 I/O plates don't seem to be full. What a bunch
> of cheap bastards. There are lanes to burn. Use them.
>
> The Z590 that offers "an option connector for Thunderbolt",
> well, put the damn Thunderbolt chip on your fancy board,
> don't tease us. It's like being "threatened with a gourmet
> meal and getting fries and ketchup in hand".
>
> That's the problem I see with the Z590. In the old days, the
> more expensive SKUs would deliver, on a full I/O plate, and
> some demonstrated value. All we're getting in the ones I've
> checked so far, is a higher price. Some have a couple Wifi
> connectors, but is that it ???
>
>> There's nothing sacred about that motherboard to me. Should I get the
>> Gigabyte Z590I Aorus Ultra instead? Or if you have a better suggestion
>> that will support the Intel i9 and two monitors and doesn't cost a
>> whole lot more, please tell me (see above).
>
> Keep a weather eye peeled, for "delivered features" versus "price".
> That's what I've tried to address in this post, but I haven't
> examined all 50 products on offer.

So if I understand you correctly, unless a really good buy for something
else comes along, you think I should stick with

the ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX
Intel Motherboard

be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent Wings - PWM
Fan - 135 mm

and no video card.

Am I right?

So, having changed the PSU to one you recommended, the complete list of
components now is

Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower Chassis with Window Cases
PH-ES614P_BK,Black 109.99 Newegg

Power Supply Corsair RMX Series, RM850x, 850 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified,
Fully Modular Power Supply (CP-9020180-NA) 144.88 Amazon

Motherboard ASRock B560M STEEL LEGEND LGA 1200 Intel B560 SATA 6Gb/s
Micro ATX Intel Motherboard 134.99 Newegg

CPU Intel Core i9-10900 389.99 Amazon

CPU Cooler be quiet! 250W TDP Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Cooler with Silent
Wings - PWM Fan - 135 mm 84.9 Amazon

RAM CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin SDRAM DDR4 (PC4 28800)
Int Model CMK32GX4M2D3600C18 189.98 Amazon

M2 Drive Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State Drive
SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 394.99 Newegg

DVD Drive ASUS DRW-24F1ST - DVD SATA SUPERMULTI Burner - SERIAL ATA -
BLACK - OEM Bulk Drive 21.99 Amazon

For a total price of $1,471.71

Unless I hear otherwise from you or a better price on something better
comes along, that's what I'll go with.

Many thanks, once more.

--
Ken

> A user should allocate 30 days research time, before the
> actual purchase. That's how long it takes to discover the
> mistakes made, catch up on your research readings,
> and correct the mistakes.
>
> In normal times, if everything was "abundant", I'd try to synchronize
> the purchases, so that the "retail clock" on returns, starts ticking
> equally on the items. It's not good to purchase stuff and have
> the retail return wind down, then discover it's not working :-)
> It's a question of whether any items are shortage items, whether
> such an ideal situation could ever exist today. I don't know what
> supplies are shortage items.
>
> *******
>
> The cooler you've picked is impressively big. On dual fan coolers,
> I remove one of the fans, to be kept as a spare for "emergencies".
> In this case, the fans are not the same size either (good, since
> RAM clearance could be an issue).
>
> https://www.bequiet.com/admin/ImageServer.php?ID=626c8a15640@be-quiet.net&omitPreview=true&.jpg
>
> You have around 40mm clearance for RAM. The measure is to the top
> of the CPU. The DIMM on the other hand, sits slightly above the
> plane of the PCB, as it bottoms out in its socket. Thus the measure
> of the available space, is slightly more than 40mm. With the smaller
> fan removed, you have more clearance. If the smaller fan is removed,
> the RAM headroom is no longer a potential issue.
>
> https://www.bequiet.com/admin/ImageServer.php?ID=261cba15636@be-quiet.net&.jpg
>
> The DDR4 RAM does not need much in the way of cooling. It will be
> the coming DDR5, which has a regulator right on the DIMM, which will
> run a tiny bit warmer (DDR5 gets warmer with enthusiast spec).
>
> The RAM works best as a single pair (one DIMM per channel).
> This ensures XMP works on the first try.
>
> On my motherboard here, XMP does not work when
> all the slots are full, and you have to tune the RAM by hand.
> Whereas in your case, by using only two DIMMs, XMP is "click"
> and "done". You still run a memtest, because you always run
> memtest, but the difference is, you don't expect issues. I
> spent hours tuning my pig, and not being picky either :-)
> That's what happens when you get greedy and fill all the slots.
>
> So my purchase order was:
>
> 1) day one, RAM half filled. XMP in BIOS, "Click" and "done"
> 2) Paul wants upgrade, fills all slots, knowing that
> XMP will no longer work, and it will be "click"
> and "pull hair out".
>
> You're at (1) :-)
>
> I knew what I was getting into when I did (2).
>
> You need to check clearance from top-of-cooler to computer
> case side panel.
>
> This is a similar kind of monster one. This one is 165mm
> from PCB to top of fan. On an 8" (200mm) computer case,
> that brings it to maybe 1" of the cover (since the PCB is not
> flush against the backside). Your case is pretty wide,
> so likely not a challenge.
>
> https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-u14s/p/N82E16835608041
>
> When the cooler is as big as the one you'd specced, if
> you need to remove the ATX12V connector, it is very hard to
> get a hand down there and undo the latch. And the one in my
> machine is so big, it overhangs the RAM, and I have to use a
> stick of wood, to reach in and work the RAM levers. These
> are the kinds of things you run into with "big air". But I
> still like big air, and am not all that interested in
> all-in-one water pumps and coolers.
>
> I was looking at coolers, hoping there was still a
> good blow-down cooler to buy. But I didn't see anything
> in the right class for this. The one in the machine
> I'm typing on, would be ideal for this application, but
> I don't think they make them any more. It has five
> heat pipes and the fan would be keeping the VCore plates cool.
> The fans that blow sideways, don't help VCore all that much.
>
> There is a practical limit, to how heavy a CPU cooler
> should be. With the PC upright, the cooler pulls on
> the motherboard, torques it. This is only a problem if
> the PC gets kicked with a foot, there could be enough
> forces to damage the area around the CPU socket.
>
> The weight limit is around 2.2lb or 1kg.
>
> Paul
>