-=> The Lizard Master wrote to Nightfox <=-

TLM> The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on
TLM> multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this
TLM> mess on.

You're partly right. The useless degree argument is not a red herring, but
it's part of a bigger problem.

1. Students choose useless degrees to get.
2. Colleges, and other Elitists, constantly push the idea that you need "a
degree" to succeed. The reality is that you don't **need** a degree and if you
think you do, you need a useful one. And for some colleges, even the useful
degrees have become so watered down that they are effectively useless.
3. High school students didn't do a simple cost/benefit analysis before
choosing to go to college and choosing their degree.

Back in ancient times (i.e. Before Internet), the resources existed to
1. Get information about degrees - what jobs wanted them and how much those
jobs paid.
2. See what it would cost to get that degree.

It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from my
first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college - tuition
plus room and board.

And today, with the Internet, those resources are really easy to get access to.

Today, though, if students did a cost/benefit analysis on a college education
they'd never go. So the Elitists have a vested interest in discouraging that.

.... Hot water Heaters: hot water needs heating?
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:23 pm

> > This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know
> > what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated
> > job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably
> > fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree
> > somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.
>
> TLM> The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on
> TLM> multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame
> TLM> this mess on.
>
> Please tell us more, O wise one. Rather than, you know, just throwing
> out a bold statement like that with no supporting argument.

I don't remember reading any data to refute. Thank you for recognizing my wisdom though.

---TLM

---
■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...

-=> Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
> company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their

Ar> Well, if you don't have the funds to begin with, you depend on a
Ar> third party tohelp you out.

Well, yes. That's what we've been talking about... But my question
was: why does that third party get to decide what you (or your kid) is
allowed to study?

Ar> Maybe the big problem is we as a society have decided to buy a
Ar> lot of things on debt, including University degrees, thus
Ar> skyrocketing prices.

Ar> People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think
Ar> about that.

Ar> Maybe it is not a bad thing that the debt tap gets tightened a
Ar> little so peoplestarts saving and paying from their savings
Ar> instead of depending on the debt system. Lots of things we buy on
Ar> debt are expensive just because they are paid with debt.

All very true, and quite sad.

.... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

-=> Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

> I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. A
> student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That's
> really all they're interested in.

Ar> I think some degrees are more profitable than others.

That's exactly what we've been talking about in this thread... Yes.

Ar> A college where they teach Engineering needs a whole lot of
Ar> technical means. Mycollege had plenty CNC machinery and
Ar> laboratories to teach students how to do stuff. Meanwhile, the
Ar> humanities college had an empty hall where they put a piece of
Ar> political propaganda every month. It is easy to see which degree
Ar> takesmore money to provide to the University and which degree is
Ar> cheap to provide and doubles as a cost-efficient political
Ar> weapon.

Good points. The "hard science" degrees do cost the university more to
administer. That makes the "useless degrees" more affordable.

.... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

-=> The Lizard Master wrote to MRO <=-

> > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple
> > levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.

> how is it misleading?

TLM> Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k
TLM> debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bail
TLM> out.

So............ who *DOES* the problem stem from?

.... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Arelor to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:40 am

Ar> People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about that.

I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doing that and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hear people say they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have money for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 2023 09:01 am

> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: Arelor to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:40 am
>
> Ar> People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about
> Ar> that.
>
> I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe
> that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doing that
> and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hear people say
> they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have money for it.. So I
> doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.
>

people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?

I've taken a 401k loan out for little vacations. you just pay it back to yourself. I didn't even need to. I just did it so i had even more cash for the trip.

i've also taken loans out from my credit union when i was in a pinch.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:47 am

>> I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction.

MR> people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I just don't know of anyone who has done that.

MR> I've taken a 401k loan out for little vacations. you just pay it back to
MR> yourself. I didn't even need to. I just did it so i had even more cash for
MR> the trip.

MR> i've also taken loans out from my credit union when i was in a pinch.

If it's something where you're borrowing from yourself like that, I don't see a problem with that. But vacation activities are one of those things where I feel like it's not really critical enough for me to want to get a loan for. There are things I'd definitely like to do on a vacation, but if I don't have the money for it already, I'd probably just not do it (though I'd still take time off work to have a break from work).

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:05 am

> If it's something where you're borrowing from yourself like that, I don't
> see a problem with that. But vacation activities are one of those things
> where I feel like it's not really critical enough for me to want to get a
> loan for. There are things I'd definitely like to do on a vacation, but if I
> don't have the money for it already, I'd probably just not do it (though I'd
> still take time off work to have a break from work).

how about just a couple thousand bucks?
poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.

---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:47 am

> people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?
>

The issue is people is deciding to take 15% interest loans in order to go on
vacations to cool places instead of going on vacation somewhere they can
actually afford - often with no good plan to pay the debt off.

Debt has two specific functions. The first one is to use it as a lever so you
get to make money wihtout losing capital: you buy a machine on a loan, then usethe machine to generate money, pay the loan off and then generate profits. The
second is getting things you MUST get but you cannot afford right away.

Getting a 3k USD loan in order to waste it in Paris when you could spend 400 inTorrevieja is abusing your luck, specially because people who tends to do just
this have a very poor cashflow.

It is not "wrong", in the sense that I don't think it is wrong for people to
spill their guts in ritualistic suicide if that is what they feel they need to
do. I just think it is bad for a lot of people doing it.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 2023 09:01 am

> I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that > cause they don't have money for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loan >

The subject of conversation this Wednesday afternoon at the clinic was that a
number of employees of an independent Doctor were getting entramped in this
sort of thing. �15% interest loans with less than a year to pay them off.

A guy I hired to help me out with some yard maintenance this summer told me he
is having trouble with a debt collection agency regarding a vacation loan.

There used to be TV advertisement for micro-credits. The marketing used to
target people who needed the money for a new car of for the vacation of their
dreams. I think most car dealers will get you some financing nowadays, so guesswhat micro-credits are being used for...

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
� Synchronet � Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 02:22 pm

> how about just a couple thousand bucks?
> poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.

I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt off I thinkit is less of a problem.

Still, I think priorizing your expenses and knowing which stuff you can afford
is an important skill. Fact of the matter is if you are not rolling in money,
there are plenty vacation options that are affordable. Half the people I know
who go on exotic trips to Asia could as well have visited a touristic town in
Spain for a pitiful price instead. When you decide for an expensive option you
either can afford it or you are pulling over your weight, and a lot of people
is pulling over their weight. People can and do pull over their weight, but theprice is then they have to use the government handouts for their kid's
education to pay debts off instead of spending them on their kids.

There was this video from a guy from India explaining why people needs to
evaluate which smartphone they get properly. I think a lot of Spaniards should
watch it, because this guys just talks some fisher-price economics that seem
forgotten nowadays. Bottom of the matter is that if you buy something that doesnot generate you any money, you should be looking into ways to prevent it from
costing you a lot of money, and asking yourself how do you intend to pay it.

And it would seem not many are doing that.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:51 am

> > > > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on
> > > > multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame
> > > > this mess on.
>
>
> > > how is it misleading?
>
> > Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for a
> > gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.
>
>
> yes, but isn't that what is happening? I know a lot of people that got
> degrees with no future. and biden spoke up and had them believing it would
> be forgiven.
>
> where do you think it stems from?

It has a lot of levels. Interest rates were completely unreasonable right out of the gate. The governement was making money on this and was borrowed against. As people here have been saying, the overall cost of education have just gone up too much as well. Having an 18 year old take on such debt at high rates is just a dumb idea. The useless degree thing is just an attack line diversion. It's easy to blame it on the one person wanting their debt cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying to get the American dream.

---TLM

---
■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...

Hello Dr. What!

DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from
DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college
DW> - tuition plus room and board.

After taxes, and costs of living? ..I doubt it.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
� Synchronet � CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

-=> Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-

DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from
DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college
DW> - tuition plus room and board.

Og> After taxes, and costs of living? ..I doubt it.

I think you need to comb your hair up. My statements went right over your
head.

.... I have been poor and I have been rich. Rich is better.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 04:41 pm

> > people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?
>
>
> The issue is people is deciding to take 15% interest loans in order to go on
> vacations to cool places instead of going on vacation somewhere they can
> actually afford - often with no good plan to pay the debt off.

15% is way high for a loan. where'd you get that number?

> Getting a 3k USD loan in order to waste it in Paris when you could spend 400
> inTorrevieja is abusing your luck, specially because people who tends to do
> just
> this have a very poor cashflow.

i don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something you only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stay home.

> It is not "wrong", in the sense that I don't think it is wrong for people to
> spill their guts in ritualistic suicide if that is what they feel they need
> to do. I just think it is bad for a lot of people doing it.

not everyone who has debt is destroying themselves. debt can be a useful tool.
when i had zero debt i was worse off than i was now. now i have some debt and i have a decent credit score. if i wanted to i could go get a car with no downpayment today. i did that with my last car, infact. i thought my old car was done and so i bought this other one. i ended up fixing old car and now i have 2 reliable vehicles.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 04:49 pm

> The subject of conversation this Wednesday afternoon at the clinic was that
> a number of employees of an independent Doctor were getting entramped in
> this sort of thing. ¡15% interest loans with less than a year to pay them
> off.
>

that sounds like they aren't using a respectable institution and they're using some ripoff predatory entity to get loans.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:05 pm

> By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 02:22 pm
>
> > how about just a couple thousand bucks?
> > poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.
>
> I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt off I
> thinkit is less of a problem.
>

if you work hard and you are not wasteful 99% of the time, whats so bad about taking a vacation and being comfortable.

you're talking about a few thousand dollars like it's 10k and the people have bad credit.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 03:58 pm

> It has a lot of levels. Interest rates were completely unreasonable right
> out of the gate. The governement was making money on this and was borrowed
> against. As people here have been saying, the overall cost of education have
> just gone up too much as well. Having an 18 year old take on such debt at
> high rates is just a dumb idea. The useless degree thing is just an attack
> line diversion. It's easy to blame it on the one person wanting their debt
> cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying to
> get the American dream.

nobody is forcing them to get those loans. they can also get grants and money from other sources. they can get into programs and get free training and certification for skilled trades.

i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.
why go to school for something that will never work out? these people have
no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.

i've personally known people who have gone to school for years and years.
their professions do not match their education.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Dr. What to Ogg on Fri Jul 21 2023 07:24 am

> -=> Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-
>
> DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from
> DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my
> DW> college
> DW> - tuition plus room and board.

pretty sure you are the first person to ever say that.
makes me wonder how truthful that statement is.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:08 am

MR> not everyone who has debt is destroying themselves. debt can be a useful
MR> tool. when i had zero debt i was worse off than i was now. now i have some
MR> debt and i have a decent credit score. if i wanted to i could go get a car

Too much debt can be bad though. Also, for quite a while, my only debt was a mortgage payment and credit card (and I'd pay off my credit card every month), and I have a pretty good credit score. I prefer to have as little debt as possible. The only reason I have a credit card is so that I can maintain my credit score and to get rewards that they often offer for using a credit card, and I just pay it off every month.

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:12 am

>> I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt
>> off I thinkit is less of a problem.

MR> if you work hard and you are not wasteful 99% of the time, whats so bad
MR> about taking a vacation and being comfortable.

There's nothing wrong with taking a vacation. I think the issue was with getting a loan to pay for the vacation. Personally, if I couldn't afford to travel somewhere for a vacation, I'd probably still take time off work but just stay in the area or do something less expensive.

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

-=> MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

> DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from
> DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my
> DW> college
> DW> - tuition plus room and board.

MR> pretty sure you are the first person to ever say that.
MR> makes me wonder how truthful that statement is.

30-some years ago, I'd say it's pretty darn accurate.

Realistically, things change. Everything could look really good for some
major, but 4 years later, the bottom could have dropped out. But that would be
the exception, not the rule.

Today... That's a different story. Colleges are **FAR** more expensive. More
expensive than just Inflation could cause. With all the Woke BS, the degrees
at many of them are so watered down that companies pretty much have to assume
that they will need to educate you - meaning that you start at a much lower
salary.

It used to be that I steered high schoolers toward college. Today, I tell them
to avoid most universities.

.... Great beer bellies are made, not born.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **

-=> MRO wrote to Arelor <=-

MR> i don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something you
MR> only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stay
MR> home.

It's not the amount. It's the prioritization.

Taking out a 3K loan to get a new roof on your house is good prioritization.
Taking out a 3K loan for a vacation is bad prioritization.

Now, there's probably some edge cases to think of (like taking a big family
vacation because it's the last time some of these relatives will be alive) is
probably a good thing. But vacations are nice-to-haves and, really, you should
only take if you have the funds available.

People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:
1. poor planners
2. have their priorities completely messed up

.... Floppy Disk = Lower back trouble.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:20 am

DW> People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:
DW> 1. poor planners
DW> 2. have their priorities completely messed up

I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until this came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com