Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Ewing on Tue Jul 25 2023 04:04 pm

> Ew> option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR when
> Ew> you can't pay it back within the interest free period and people
> Ew> generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.
>
> I've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacation
> I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.
>

you're like the weirdest guy on here.
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:57 am

> Which had nothing to do with socialism.

I think you're either wildly misunderstanding what I wrote, or looking for someone to talk to.

If it's the latter, hit me up a little more politely and we can try again.

Anyway, I'm mostly flattered you expect anything from me at all. It's nice to be noticed <3

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■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Tue Jul 25 2023 10:34 am

> > Ton of reasons, you are paying back that loan with after tax dollars so
> > you completely wipe out and lose out on probably the single biggest
> > benefit of pretax dollars. Also if you have to take a loan out for a
> > vacation from your retirement you are also probably more likely to
> > default on yourself. It also depends on you keeping you current employer,
> > you get fired you need to pay that back immediately.
>
>
> i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to extreme
> conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay off. there
> has to be some there to cover it.

It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others here have stated more reasons as to why.

> that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.

Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good idea though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't like it."

---TLM

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Jul 25 2023 08:04 pm

> Ew>> option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR
> Ew>> when you can't pay it back within the interest free period and people
> Ew>> generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.

>> I've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacation
>> I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.

MR> you're like the weirdest guy on here.

I think you're trolling now.. Making sound financial decisions isn't weird. I'm not going to put $10,000 on a credit card for a vacation, and I don't think many people in their right mind would do that.

Anyway, if I'm weird for that, then I don't want to be normal.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 04:18 pm

> > i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to
> > extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay
> > off. there has to be some there to cover it.
>
> It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others here
> have stated more reasons as to why.
>

just one other guy.

> > that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.
>
> Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good idea
> though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't like
> it."

whatever dude. people do it. live with it.
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:01 pm

> MR> you're like the weirdest guy on here.
>
> I think you're trolling now.. Making sound financial decisions isn't weird.
> I'm not going to put $10,000 on a credit card for a vacation, and I don't

no, you're weird.
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:50 am

> Please remember, though, that the topic of discussion was basically that
> Europeans are generally more receptive to socialism - as in who pays for
> the "free stuff". College educations and the forgiving of student debt,
> to be specific.

I might be getting my wires crossed, especially trying to trace a thread through two weeks of crosstalk, but I think your original comment was in response to societies favoring individuals or communities. Obviously, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

My main point is that I don't think forgiving student debt (or covering the cost of college) requires you to be receptive -- or even tolerant -- of socialism. Socialism in the sense that relates to control over the means of production, the organization of the economy, etc. etc. rather than simply "stuff is subsidized by taxpayers/the government/society.

I favor student loan forgiveness (to a point, not necessarily a complete and permanent amnesty) and subsidized public college because it seems like an easy investment into the future labor pool, especially as automation and ever-growing tech industries continue to turn expertise into economic growth.
I don't particularly care about la revolucion, and I want neither Peron nor Castro haunting this country. But I do want America to remain productive and competitive, and I don't think that's done by continuing to increase the cost of education well beyond inflation.

But, at the end of the day, there's room for reasonable disagreement.
Even with us both being reasonable people, I'm not sure this is going to c hange either of our minds.

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-=> MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-

> > i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to
> > extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay
> > off. there has to be some there to cover it.

> It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others here
> have stated more reasons as to why.

MR> just one other guy.

More than one.

> > that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.

> Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good idea
> though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't like
> it."

MR> whatever dude. people do it. live with it.

Yep, people do it. Idiots do it. Idiots like you.

.... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Margaerynne to Gamgee on Tue Jul 25 2023 09:54 pm

>
> I favor student loan forgiveness (to a point, not necessarily a complete an > s continue to turn expertise into economic growth.
> I don't particularly care about la revolucion, and I want neither Peron nor > beyond inflation.
>
> But, at the end of the day, there's room for reasonable disagreement.
> Even with us both being reasonable people, I'm not sure this is going to c
I'd argue that the education machine is a mean of production - since it
produces professionals, at least in theory. Therefore any attempt from the
Government or any authority structure to take over it using cohercitive means
is a Socialist action.

When a Government becomes the primary source of funds for a corporation, that
corporation becomes a branch of the Government. See Spanish examples such as
ACS or Indra.

Now, the problem with forgiving loans or using tax money to fund education is
that you massify education (which is bad), you overproduce professionals (whichis bad) and are sending the message that education may get as expensive as it
wants to get, because the Government will cover for it (which is bad because
you end up paying for it through the Government).

But I dare say the premise that formal education must be accesible to anybody
at any cost is flawed, so the whole points above are moot.

We don't need degreed people. We need qualified workers. Lots of jobs can be
done by people who has never stepped into College and in fact they may make
more money in a number of cases. I'd make the point that we need to stop
promoting the need for getting a degree and start promoting the idea that
people should be learning a trade. Spain is #1 example of a country that keeps
overproducing degreed people, won't stop producing degreed people, and as a
result has lots of degreed people working at places were no degree is needed.

And the argument gets better.

Lots of what you learn through the University you could learn yourself. This isthe era of Internet and public libraries. People does not go to College to
*learn*, they go to College to get a *paper* that says they passed some
compliance test that makes them fit for certain role in Society. I am not
symathetic to the idea that Joe the Gardener has to pay for some kid to get a
paper which is only needed because we have artificially made that paper
powerful.

I reproduce a joke I once read in a web comic:

Professor: "Hey kid! May I interest you in some College education? We have a
special program. We give you all the learning resources you need, you get to
pick the subjects that interest you, we let you learn at your own speed and it
is all funded by the Government!"

Kid: "What's the catch?"

Professor: "This program does not give you a paper or title in the end"

Kid: "You have wasted my time, sir."

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Arelor to Margaerynne on Wed Jul 26 2023 01:52 pm

> I'd argue that the education machine is a mean of production - since it
> produces professionals, at least in theory. Therefore any attempt from the
> Government or any authority structure to take over it using cohercitive
> means is a Socialist action.

I think that's an interesting argument, and a good one to consider.
I'm used to thinking of it as something like a public utility (which is also a critial resource that holds immense strategic value to its controller) but
viewing it through that lens is useful.

> When a Government becomes the primary source of funds for a corporation,
> that corporation becomes a branch of the Government. See Spanish examples
> such as ACS or Indra.

I'm thinking mostly about state schools, which are already explicitly the state's higher education arm.

Public universities are openly taxpayer-funded, so I'm not sure this one is a big shock.

> Now, the problem with forgiving loans or using tax money to fund education
> is that you massify education (which is bad), you overproduce professionals
> (whichis bad) and are sending the message that education may get as
> expensive as it
> wants to get, because the Government will cover for it (which is bad because
> you end up paying for it through the Government).

I think controlling (spiraling) tuition and bloated administration is also an important part of the problem, but I don't think either of those goals has to conflict with easing student loan debt. They can, especially if nothing is done to combat them after forgiving debt, but I hope there's someone out there smarter than Margaerynne Q. Nobody running the numbers.

> But I dare say the premise that formal education must be accesible to
> anybody at any cost is flawed, so the whole points above are moot.
>
> We don't need degreed people. We need qualified workers. Lots of jobs can be
> done by people who has never stepped into College and in fact they may make
> more money in a number of cases. I'd make the point that we need to stop
> promoting the need for getting a degree and start promoting the idea that
> people should be learning a trade. Spain is #1 example of a country that
> keeps overproducing degreed people, won't stop producing degreed people, and
> as a result has lots of degreed people working at places were no degree is
> needed.

You definitely need a balance, and "college = success = the only path to prosperity" seems to thankfully be dying down amongst teenagers.

But changing course doesn't require abandoning people who have been caught in the flaws of the college-at-all-costs mindset.

> And the argument gets better.
>
> Lots of what you learn through the University you could learn yourself. This
> isthe era of Internet and public libraries. People does not go to College to
> *learn*, they go to College to get a *paper* that says they passed some
> compliance test that makes them fit for certain role in Society. I am not
> symathetic to the idea that Joe the Gardener has to pay for some kid to get
> a paper which is only needed because we have artificially made that paper
> powerful.

That's also a good discussion, but I think it varies by degree.

You /can/ spend four years learning rigorous mathematics yourself, but why not
benefit from professionals who came before you?

> I reproduce a joke I once read in a web comic:
>
> [SMBC joke snipped]

I think this is another part of the problem. Certain majors do benefit from a university atmosphere, certain ones can be done in a smaller college (or normal school), or entirely through self-study or a bootcamp.

I'd definitely be open to discussing this more, though. I'm admittedly very biased on this.

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Margaerynne to Arelor on Thu Jul 27 2023 10:36 pm

> You /can/ spend four years learning rigorous mathematics yourself, but why
not benefit from professionals who came before you?

I'd buy more education myself if it was actual education instead of just
papers.

THe problem is that when you buy formal education you are buying a program
somebody designed which may not be what you want it to be. Add to it that the
goal of the University is to raise more funds and you start seeing perverse
incentives.

The University is not going to teach you how to be an Engineer in three years
if they can split Engineering in modules they can sell separatedly and keep youyet moar years in it. This applies to both public and private Universities -
because public UNiversities benefit from having students. End result is you getEngineering turned into a degree plus a master plus an universitary extension
course plus a... you get the idea

ANd you end up loaded up with papers who tell the world how great you are but
you don't know the difference between a carburettor and an IPN-500 beam becausenobody ever cared to show you EITHER.

Also known as the effect "I heve learnt more Electrical Engineering trying to
fix my home appliances with Internet tutorials than at college".

The whole premise of the model is flawed and we need to burn it down with a
flame thrower so we can wipe the ashes aside and rebuild.

THey had it figured it out in the middle ages already. If you wanted to become
an engineer, you got an Engineer to teach you and you assisted him as an
apprentice. THe resoult of ENgineering for a long time with a guy who knows
Engineering is learning a lot of Engineering. Who would have guessed?

(And yes I am sore because the University here trashed the Equine Hospital and
now the closest one is quite far away)

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Tracker1 to Hustler on Sun Jul 16 2023 12:00 am

Tr> Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an
Tr> institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even
Tr> require one to begin with. Shameful that the education system steers
Tr> people that way in order to better indoctrinate them all.

College is a "racket" like every thing else in this world. I get a kick out of the latest "Free College" kick these days. You won't grow a brain even if it it is free.
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On 2023-04-25, Moondog <CAVEBBS!Moondog@vert.synchro.net> wrote:
>
> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 06:59 pm
>
> > -=> Nightfox wrote to Trapper <=-
> >
> > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced lik
> > Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english a
> > Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of u
> >
> > Ni> I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced
> > Ni> differently..?
> >
> > The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > ... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.
>
> Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.
>
> ---
> � Synchronet � The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

In the old times, "vosotros" was born in Spanish as "vos" (old
term for singular you) and otros, "others/anothers").
Thus, something like "yothers" wouldn't look weird at all.

---
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: anthk to All on Sat Jun 17 2023 02:15 pm

> > > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's
> > > pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's
> > > degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a

A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today. :-(

|07 HusTler

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: HusTler to anthk on Tue Jul 11 2023 03:22 pm

> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: anthk to All on Sat Jun 17 2023 02:15 pm
>
> > > > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's
> > > > pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a
> > > > bachelor's degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what
> > > > growing on a
>
> A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today. :-(

well it depends on the field.
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-=> HusTler wrote to anthk <=-

> > > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's
> > > pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's
> > > degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a

Hu> A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.

I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.

However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree,
which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I
have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A
whole lot of something.

.... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 2023 08:24 pm

> > > Tr>> example. I have a bachelor's I still speak
Hu>> A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.

Ga> I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.

Ga> However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree,
Ga> which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I
Ga> have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A
Ga> whole lot of something.
Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.
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-=> Hustler wrote to Gamgee <=-

Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an
Hu> Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people
Hu> without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2
Hu> cents that's all. ---

Just a Degree has no value.

A Bachelor's in, say, engineering will get you a good job.
A Master's in, say, women's studies is valueless.

I've known too many people who fell for the "any degree is better than no
degree" B.S. and ended up getting a valueless degree and lots of student loan
debt.

When I was in high school, even back then, the information to do a cost/benefit
analysis on a college degree was easily available. It's even easier today wtih
the Internet. It was simple for me to see how much my B.S. in Computer Science
would cost and simple to see what the starting salaries would be.

The simple fact that we have so many people who **didn't** so that simple check
before doing to college and taking out those student loans is very telling.

.... Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39 am

> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 2023 08:24 pm
>
> > > > Tr>> example. I have a bachelor's I still speak
> Hu>> A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.
>
> Ga> I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.
>
> Ga> However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree,
> Ga> which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I
> Ga> have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A
> Ga> whole lot of something.
> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I h

Depending on the field, a degree or cert may equate to just being good at taki
ng tests or writing papers. Granted, these are great skills to have. I used
to work at a place where a professional engineers license was all about signat
ure authority. The folks doing the design work were contractors or
consultants that didn't have a PE. The guy with the PE license had to review
and approve their work and sign off on it. The folks working for him may be
smarter, but he harbors the responsibilty for their work.

In my time in IT, experience and application of knowledge were more important
than certs. Certs and degrees were tools for getting a job elsewhere.

---
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39:39

Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I
Hu> have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any
Hu> degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.

Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even require one to begin with. Shameful that the education system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinate them all.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Tracker1 to Hustler on Sun Jul 16 2023 12:00 am

> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39:39
>
> Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an
>
> Hu> Associates.
> Hu> I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any
> Hu> degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's
> Hu> all.
>
> Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an
>
> institution
> took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even require one to
> begin with. Shameful that the education system steers people that way in
> order to better indoctrinate them all.

people have the ability to think for themselves. there's also career counselors.

i know a woman who went to school and got several useless degrees. she was in college from 18 to 30s. she's a car porter. i think she was in school because
she didn't want to work (mom supported her) and she liked the school environment.

---
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-=> Tracker1 wrote to Hustler <=-

Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I
Hu> have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any
Hu> degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.

Tr> Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an
Tr> institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't
Tr> even require one to begin with. Shameful that the education
Tr> system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinate
Tr> them all.

I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degree
is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean is
that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,
such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Not
that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand and
there are few jobs in those fields.

Get a degree in medicine/engineering (any flavor)/business, and you
won't be in that situation. It's a case of "buyer beware".

.... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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> I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degree
> is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean is
> that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,
> such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Not
> that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand and
> there are few jobs in those fields.

I don't think that loan companies should give student loans to people who
are going to major in something that is not in demand. IMHO, if you want
to make your money back, it makes financial sense not to do so.

* SLMR 2.1a * Why do we have training bras? What can we teach them?

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-=> Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

> I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degree
> is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean is
> that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,
> such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Not
> that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand and
> there are few jobs in those fields.

DW> I don't think that loan companies should give student loans to
DW> people who are going to major in something that is not in demand.
DW> IMHO, if you want to make your money back, it makes financial
DW> sense not to do so.

Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their
business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on the
odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.

I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides to
spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They will
(theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree they
get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)

.... Behind every great man is an amazed mother-in-law!
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-=> Gamgee wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

Ga> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
Ga> company get to decide what your kid can major in?

Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

.... Assume the relaxation length of photons in the atmosphere is constant
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