-=> poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

Ga> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
Ga> company get to decide what your kid can major in?

pF> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it
would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.

.... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
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> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
> company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their
> business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on the
> odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.

Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don't
know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if people
were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not going to parlay
into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School, or English to go to
Education School, etc.).

It would mess up the indoctrination process, and also whatever schemes the
school has going to fleece young people out of a lot of money.

> I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides to
> spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They will
> (theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree they
> get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)

I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician, or
political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them pay it off. :(

* SLMR 2.1a * Bureaucrats cut red tape--lengthwise.

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> Ga> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
> Ga> company get to decide what your kid can major in?

> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

Their debt-ridden future certainly is a part of it. :)

* SLMR 2.1a * I idiot-proof my programs, but along comes a bigger idiot

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jul 18 2023 02:03 pm

Ga>> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
Ga>> company get to decide what your kid can major in?

pF>> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

Ga> Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it
Ga> would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.

This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.

Nightfox

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-=> Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
> company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their
> business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on the
> odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.

DW> Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I
DW> don't know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been
DW> avoided if people were not allowed to get a useless degree that
DW> they were not going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci
DW> to go to Law School, or English to go to Education School, etc.).

I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. A
student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That's
really all they're interested in.

DW> It would mess up the indoctrination process, and also whatever
DW> schemes the school has going to fleece young people out of a lot
DW> of money.

Certainly. Again, it doesn't matter what the student may be learning,
just that they are paying.

> I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides to
> spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They will
> (theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree they
> get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)

DW> I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician,
DW> or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them
DW> pay it off. :(

It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of.
Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be
doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students
(and/or their parents). That's all it is.

.... Diplomacy is saying 'Nice Doggy' until you find a rock.
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-=> Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

Ga>> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
Ga>> company get to decide what your kid can major in?

pF>> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.

Ga> Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it
Ga> would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.

Ni> This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we
Ni> never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end
Ni> up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though
Ni> the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a
Ni> way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically
Ni> is unrelated.

Possibly, but an unrelated job wouldn't be likely to require "that"
degree, because it's.... unrelated. I mean, it boggles my mind that a
young person would *choose* to major in something like "ethnic studies",
or "international studies", "child and family studies". These are real
degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things
like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What
sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever
provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care,
because those students are lining their pockets just the same as the
"real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed
long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid
"degrees". Pisses me off.

.... When all else fails, read the instructions.
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:31 pm

Ga> degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things
Ga> like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What
Ga> sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever
Ga> provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care,
Ga> because those students are lining their pockets just the same as the
Ga> "real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed
Ga> long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid
Ga> "degrees". Pisses me off.

I could see someone with an art history degree working at an art museum (such as the Louvre and such), but yeah, I've heard of such college degrees that aren't likely to have good job prospects. I think "general studies" is another one I've seen. If someone wants to major in something like that, to better themselves or something, it probably makes more sense to pay their own money or don't major in it if they can't afford it.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:09 pm

> This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know
> what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated
> job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably
> fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow,
> in a job that typically is unrelated.

The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.

---TLM

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: The Lizard Master to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 2023 08:58 am

> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:09 pm
>
> > This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know
> > what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated
> > job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably
> > fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree
> > somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.
>
> The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple
> levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.
>

how is it misleading?
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:49 pm

DW> Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don't
DW> know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if people
DW> were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not going to
DW> parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School, or English
DW> to go to Education School, etc.).

A college is basically in the business of selling a product, which is education and training. I doubt they'd want to be selective about who's buying from them. However, I have heard of ivy league colleges with strict entrance exams and such that filter out certain prospective students.

DW> I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician, or
DW> political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them pay it off.
DW> :(

I understand totally. I've wondered about this, and for countries that make college inexpensive or free for students, I've wondered if it's because their government cares about the country having a strong economy with an educated workforce. Ever since I was a kid, I've heard things in the news that compared to other countries, students in the US falling behind in math, science, and other skills that can contribute to valuable jobs in technology and manufacturing and such, which are very important for things that people are doing these days. It would be good to have many people knowledgeable and skilled in these areas to be able to fill local jobs and help the local economy overall.

What's worse is lately I've heard that high schools in the US have been relaxing their standards in topics such as English, math, etc., so that the schools can say they have more students passing and graduating. If that's true, then we have more students graduting these days with lower abilities and skills than in past years.

As far as college tuition, college costs have gotten a bit ridiculous, and it would be good if the costs came down.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:23 pm

>> politician, or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to
>> help them
>> pay it off. :(

Ga> It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of.
Ga> Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be
Ga> doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students
Ga> (and/or their parents). That's all it is.

I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about this is whether the society is more individualistic or group-oriented. People in the US tend to be more individualistic, so it makes sense that the thought process for many people in the US would be "I shouldn't have to pay for other students, and if they want to be successful, they need to pay for it themselves". In other countries that make college tuition inexpensive or free, I've wondered if it's because of a more collectivist mindset - Perhaps their government wants to have a strong economy by having an educated workforce, so they want to do what they can to make a higher education attainable for many of its citizens.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:39 pm

> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:49 pm
>
> DW> Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don't
> DW> know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if
> DW> people were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not
> DW> going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School,
> DW> or English to go to Education School, etc.).
>
> A college is basically in the business of selling a product, which is
> education and training. I doubt they'd want to be selective about who's
> buying from them. However, I have heard of ivy league colleges with strict
> entrance exams and such that filter out certain prospective students.

tell that to my friend. his daughter couldn't get into a school she liked. then the next year she checked that she was a person of color because her mom was hispanic and she got into college easy.
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> This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know
hat
> omeone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that

> pens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low).
aybe
> hey can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that
ypicall
> is unrelated.

I dated someone who had a Spanish degree, but who was working in IT and, at
that time, was making (net) about $7-9K more than I was with my MIS degree.

She didn't get along with her boss and eventually got laid off, so I am not
sure what she is doing now.

* SLMR 2.1a * Don't sweat petty things, or pet sweaty things.

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>The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple
evels
> including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.

Most people that habitually complain that they have a degree and cannot get a
job do not have a degree in a field that is at all in demand.

The only time the degree is not relevant is when the economy is really bad
and everyone is in the same boat.

* SLMR 2.1a * I used to have a handle on life, then it broke.

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Dumas Walker to THE LIZARD MASTER on Wed Jul 19 2023 05:23 pm

> Most people that habitually complain that they have a degree and cannot get
> a job do not have a degree in a field that is at all in demand.
>
> The only time the degree is not relevant is when the economy is really bad
> and everyone is in the same boat.
>

well it depends on the field. my ex works at a place where they won't hire anybody without a degree anymore. they didn't have bad experiences, either.
they just demand degrees for every position, even production.
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-=> Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

Ga> degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things
Ga> like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What
Ga> sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever
Ga> provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care,
Ga> because those students are lining their pockets just the same as the
Ga> "real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed
Ga> long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid
Ga> "degrees". Pisses me off.

Ni> I could see someone with an art history degree working at an art
Ni> museum (such as the Louvre and such), but yeah, I've heard of

Sure, that's reasonable, but there just aren't very many job openings in
such a field. A new graduate with that degree has virtually NO CHANCE
at getting employed for that.

Ni> such college degrees that aren't likely to have good job
Ni> prospects. I think "general studies" is another one I've seen.
Ni> If someone wants to major in something like that, to better
Ni> themselves or something, it probably makes more sense to pay
Ni> their own money or don't major in it if they can't afford it.

Absolutely. Or spend that money (of their own) on a vocational / trade
school of some kind. Often times those type of jobs pay better than a
traditional "degree required" job, these days.

.... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
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-=> Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

>> politician, or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to
>> help them pay it off. :(

Ga> It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of.
Ga> Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be
Ga> doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students
Ga> (and/or their parents). That's all it is.

Ni> I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about
Ni> this is whether the society is more individualistic or
Ni> group-oriented. People in the US tend to be more
Ni> individualistic, so it makes sense that the thought process for
Ni> many people in the US would be "I shouldn't have to pay for other
Ni> students, and if they want to be successful, they need to pay for
Ni> it themselves". In other countries that make college tuition
Ni> inexpensive or free, I've wondered if it's because of a more
Ni> collectivist mindset - Perhaps their government wants to have a
Ni> strong economy by having an educated workforce, so they want to
Ni> do what they can to make a higher education attainable for many
Ni> of its citizens.

I think that's all correct. It's also a sign of those countries being
much more receptive to the ideas/beliefs of socialism, which is
generally not very well received here in the USA. Independence,
freedom, and small government / small taxes are sort of a fundamental
thing in America, and have been since .... 1776. ;-)

.... Freedom isn't free.
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-=> The Lizard Master wrote to Nightfox <=-

> This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know
> what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated
> job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably
> fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow,
> in a job that typically is unrelated.

TLM> The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on
TLM> multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame
TLM> this mess on.

Please tell us more, O wise one. Rather than, you know, just throwing
out a bold statement like that with no supporting argument.

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 12:49 pm

> > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple
> > levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.
>
>
> how is it misleading?

Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.

---TLM

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:50 pm

> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
> By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 12:49 pm
>
> > > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on
> > > multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this
> > > mess on.
>
>
> > how is it misleading?
>
> Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for a
> gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.
>

yes, but isn't that what is happening? I know a lot of people that got degrees with no future. and biden spoke up and had them believing it would be forgiven.

where do you think it stems from?
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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Mon Jul 17 2023 09:55 pm

> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan
> company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their

Well, if you don't have the funds to begin with, you depend on a third party tohelp you out.

Maybe the big problem is we as a society have decided to buy a lot of things
on debt, including University degrees, thus skyrocketing prices.

People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about that.

Maybe it is not a bad thing that the debt tap gets tightened a little so peoplestarts saving and paying from their savings instead of depending on the debt
system. Lots of things we buy on debt are expensive just because they are paid
with debt.

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:23 pm

> I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. A
> student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That's
> really all they're interested in.

I think some degrees are more profitable than others.

A college where they teach Engineering needs a whole lot of technical means. Mycollege had plenty CNC machinery and laboratories to teach students how to do
stuff. Meanwhile, the humanities college had an empty hall where they put a
piece of political propaganda every month. It is easy to see which degree takesmore money to provide to the University and which degree is cheap to provide
and doubles as a cost-efficient political weapon.

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:39 pm

> ngs that people are doing these days. It would be good to have many people >
> What's worse is lately I've heard that high schools in the US have been rela > graduting these days with lower abilities and skills than in past years.

It is vote purchasing.

The issue with pseudo-free (because it is tax funded, partially or totally)
college education is that you produce way more professionals than you need.
You won't have scarcity of Engineers but you will have plenty working as
something other than an Engineer. 60% of Engineering students that get their
degree will be working as Engineers here within 3 years of coming out. THat
means 40% of them won't. And Engineers are the lucky ones.

Let's face it: we don't need a legion of degreed people. We need a legion of
qualified workers and a small number of degreed people.

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:44 pm

> I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about this is wheth > ould be "I shouldn't have to pay for other students, and if they want to be > Perhaps their government wants to have a strong economy by having an educate
It has nothing to do with collectivist mindset for most people.

It is rather "I don't want to pay, so I will complain to the gov until somebodyelse pays for it."

True Socialists that would contribute to the system at a net loss in order to
improve the lives of others are so scarce you would consider them a myth.

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Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:52 am

> something other than an Engineer. 60% of Engineering students that get their > degree will be working as Engineers here within 3 years of coming out. THat
> means 40% of them won't. And Engineers are the lucky ones.

* These are Spanish statistics.

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