> I wonder if education programs are at fault.

> As in, college graduates barely know how to code the basics so companies have
> train them nearly from the ground up. It certainly seems that way in lots of
> elds.

I have a few friends who are teachers. They say that they are "motivated"
by their school admins/systems to teach children to be able to pass the
standardized tests that they take every year and not much else.

We took some standardized test when I was a kid but there was a different
emphasis on them back then. Like I think it was more a measure of the
student and their abilities, and less about whether or not the school was
"failing."

As a result, I feel like we may have received a more rounded education than
current kids do.

* SLMR 2.1a * "My therapist was right...God DOES hate me!!!"-J.Sherman
---
� Synchronet � CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Tue Apr 16 2024 06:35 am

PF> I worked in my field and finished up school part time, so I felt like I
PF> had some chops before I left school.

I did as well, and I feel like I was lucky it worked out that way for me. After I finished my associate's degree, I went on to get my bachelor's degree, but before I started working on my bachelor's degree, I put an ad out that I was a software developer looking for work (this was in a local computer magazine in 2003). About a month into my bachelor's degree, someone running a local startup company out of his house responded, and I went to work for him part-time while I finished my bachelor's (then worked full time).

Nightfox

---
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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Tue Apr 16 2024 06:35 am

> I wonder how many college kids nowadays have jobs that are at least
> field-adjacent. We're pushing our son to get an internship this summer
> so he can get some on the job experience and some resume line items
> besides "worked in a grocery store".

My high school offered a "class" that was actually an internship at a local business. No pay, but you were "out of school" for the last two classes of the day and received a credit towards graduation. I got an internship at Acxiom, at that time one of the largest IT companies in my state. Unfortunately, I was a gopher for an Admin Assistant and did not get any actual IT experience. But it was fun nonetheless.

> I worked in my field and finished up school part time, so I felt like I
> had some chops before I left school.

The summer that I turned 15, I took a college class in PL/1. My motivation was actually to get my own account on their VAX 11/780 cluster, as Computing Services was getting finicky about me using my mother's VAX account. :)

Anyway, I became one of the "lab rats", the nickname they had for students who spent more time than "needed" hanging out in the computer labs. After I graduated high school, I got a job as a lab supervisor. Primary duties were pulling printouts off the line printer and showing students how to turn on a VT220 terminal and log into the VAX. No, I'm not kidding... :D

One of my friends was a senior and when he graduated the following year, he got a job as a programmer at a startup. He was the first and only programmer and quickly figured out they could make better progress if he had some help. He recommended me, a 19 year old geek who loved to write code. I went from making $5/hr twiddling my thumbs in the computer lab to $6/hr writing code at home in my pajamas. I was in heaven. I dropped out of college and started my first full-time job.

Five years later, with 5 years of professional C++ experience, I decided to find a new position. But had no desire to go back to college. Luckily, I didn't *need* to.

---
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Re: Eclipse travel
By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Tue Apr 16 2024 04:27 am

> Re: Eclipse travel
> By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Mon Apr 08 2024 04:25 pm
>
> > i was literally working outside during the eclipse. we saw a lot of
> > people walk out of businesses and stare into the sun.
>
> https://x.com/JonathanSackett/status/1777833258459234521
____________________██████____________________
____________________██____██__________________
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____________________██____██__________________
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________________██__________██████████████____
______________██__________________________██__
██████████__██____________________________██__
██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██____________________________████__
██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██________________________________██
██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██________________________________██
██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██____________________________████__
██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██______________________________██__
██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██______________________________██__
██▒▒▒▒__▒▒██__________________________████____
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██████████__██__________________________██____
______________██████████████████████████______
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Working in your field
By: Skylar to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 16 2024 03:40 pm

> The summer that I turned 15, I took a college class in PL/1. My motivation
> was actually to get my own account on their VAX 11/780 cluster, as Computing
> Services was getting finicky about me using my mother's VAX account. :)

For dm and anyone interested in 1980s BBS history, that VAX was the home of UBBS, a multi-user BBS written in Fortran by Dale Miller.

http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/VAX/VMS/UBBS/www.decuslib.com/decus/vax89a3/ualr/bbs/aaareadme.1st

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-=> Dumas Walker wrote to ARELOR <=-

DW> I have a few friends who are teachers. They say that they are
DW> "motivated" by their school admins/systems to teach children to be able
DW> to pass the standardized tests that they take every year and not much
DW> else.

That's been the case for decades now.

DW> We took some standardized test when I was a kid but there was a
DW> different emphasis on them back then. Like I think it was more a
DW> measure of the student and their abilities, and less about whether or
DW> not the school was "failing."

I remember those. And, ya, initially, they were more of a guage to see how the
students were doing and use the data to make adjustments. But, like all
measurements, it turned into something else.

DW> As a result, I feel like we may have received a more rounded education
DW> than current kids do.

That's more because our schools today are more of indoctrination centers
telling kids what to think, as opposed to education centers showing kids how to
think.

.... When all else fails, spend money!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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-=> Skylar wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Sk> My high school offered a "class" that was actually an internship at a
Sk> local business. No pay, but you were "out of school" for the last two
Sk> classes of the day and received a credit towards graduation.

We had the same, but we got paid. Less the minimum wage, since it wasn't full
time, but still...

Sk> I got an
Sk> internship at Acxiom, at that time one of the largest IT companies in
Sk> my state. Unfortunately, I was a gopher for an Admin Assistant and did
Sk> not get any actual IT experience. But it was fun nonetheless.

Similar experience. I got a job at a little software company in my town. It
was a very interesting experience in how NOT to run a business. IHMO: All
experience - good and bad - is useful.

Sk> The summer that I turned 15, I took a college class in PL/1.

So you are a maschochist. :)

Sk> My motivation was actually to get my own account on their VAX 11/780
Sk> cluster, as Computing Services was getting finicky about me using my
Sk> mother's VAX account. :)

Well, at least you had a good reason for the self-harm. :)

Sk> students how to turn on a VT220 terminal and log into the VAX. No, I'm
Sk> not kidding... :D

Oh, that brings back memories of how ignorant some freshmen were in college.
You'd think that they would have tried to get more experience using computers
before then.

Sk> Five years later, with 5 years of professional C++ experience, I
Sk> decided to find a new position. But had no desire to go back to
Sk> college. Luckily, I didn't *need* to.

Ya, college was OK, but I really didn't **need** it. About the only thing that
it did was open some doors that would have been closed to me at the time
without a degree.

.... Always smile. It makes people wonder what you're up to.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
� Synchronet � My Brand-New BBS

> > Not a bad plan. I learned from the last one that trying to travel on the
> > day of a eclipse is not a good idea -- urban style traffic jams out in the
> > middle of nowhere. ;)

> Cleveland was actually easy in and out. The 2017 one I was stuck in horrendus
> affic!

I wondered how it was viewing it in a big city. The areas near here
that were in totallity in 2017 were all rural and didn't have the
infrastructure to handle that many people trying to leave at the same time.
Getting there was a little easier, I guess because people set out to get
there at different times. Once it was over, though, everyone wanted out at
once. ;)

* SLMR 2.1a * "Kills millions of germs on contract"
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-=> Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Ni> work (this was in a local computer magazine in 2003). About a month
Ni> into my bachelor's degree, someone running a local startup company out
Ni> of his house responded, and I went to work for him part-time while I
Ni> finished my bachelor's (then worked full time).

I got really cocky when I had professors who hadn't seen the light of
day outside of a classroom trying to tell us what it was like in the
"real world". I'd been working professionally, writing code for a year
or so and saw much different things than they had seen.

.... Faced with a choice, do both.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
� Synchronet � .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

-=> Skylar wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Sk> My high school offered a "class" that was actually an internship at a
Sk> local business. No pay, but you were "out of school" for the last two
Sk> classes of the day and received a credit towards graduation. I got an
Sk> internship at Acxiom, at that time one of the largest IT companies in
Sk> my state. Unfortunately, I was a gopher for an Admin Assistant and did
Sk> not get any actual IT experience. But it was fun nonetheless.

I'm sure you learned a lot just being around a functional corporate
environment - something kids don't learn when all they do is attend
classes.

My company a few years back participated in an internship program called
YearUp. They took kids from commuity colleges and kids working
part-time jobs after high school. Not your usual well-to-do University
kids.

YearUp taught them basic office etiquette, how to use MS Office apps,
and how to interact in teams and in 1:1 settings, and they'd split time
between corporate internship and classwork.

I did 3 cohorts of 2 people each and it gave me great exposure to
working and managing 20-somethings. They were a great experience for me,
and each one of them left the program with a position either at our
company or outside.

One guy went from bussing tables and working at a convenience store to
making $60K in a bizdev role, I got to see him continue his career while
I worked there.

> I worked in my field and finished up school part time, so I felt like I
> had some chops before I left school.

Sk> The summer that I turned 15, I took a college class in PL/1. My
Sk> motivation was actually to get my own account on their VAX 11/780
Sk> cluster, as Computing Services was getting finicky about me using my
Sk> mother's VAX account. :)

Sk> Anyway, I became one of the "lab rats", the nickname they had for
Sk> students who spent more time than "needed" hanging out in the computer
Sk> labs. After I graduated high school, I got a job as a lab supervisor.
Sk> Primary duties were pulling printouts off the line printer and showing
Sk> students how to turn on a VT220 terminal and log into the VAX. No, I'm
Sk> not kidding... :D

Sk> One of my friends was a senior and when he graduated the following
Sk> year, he got a job as a programmer at a startup. He was the first and
Sk> only programmer and quickly figured out they could make better progress
Sk> if he had some help. He recommended me, a 19 year old geek who loved to
Sk> write code. I went from making $5/hr twiddling my thumbs in the
Sk> computer lab to $6/hr writing code at home in my pajamas. I was in
Sk> heaven. I dropped out of college and started my first full-time job.

Sk> Five years later, with 5 years of professional C++ experience, I
Sk> decided to find a new position. But had no desire to go back to
Sk> college. Luckily, I didn't *need* to.

Sk> ---
Sk> Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet
Sk> [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

.... Adding on
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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Wed Apr 17 2024 06:29 am

PF> I got really cocky when I had professors who hadn't seen the light of day
PF> outside of a classroom trying to tell us what it was like in the "real
PF> world". I'd been working professionally, writing code for a year or so and
PF> saw much different things than they had seen.

:) I had a software engineering instructor who was also the head of the software engineering program at the college, and he had been teaching at the college for around 30+ years at the time. But it seemed he was aware of current industry trends, and (this was around 2001-2003) we had a class in C# (which was fairly new at the time) and a class in JSP, and a lot of our object-oriented instruction was with the latest C++ at the time.

But at the same time, he seemed to be unaware of some things happening at the college. When it was getting close to graduation time from there, I got something talking about a graduation ceremony practice (where they'd talk about where to be on stage, etc.) and I asked him if he thought that's something we should go to, and he said "In all the years I've been teaching here, I've never heard of that. I guess they'll teach you how to walk?"

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Working in your field
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Skylar on Wed Apr 17 2024 06:37 am

PF> I'm sure you learned a lot just being around a functional corporate
PF> environment - something kids don't learn when all they do is attend
PF> classes.

PF> One guy went from bussing tables and working at a convenience store to
PF> making $60K in a bizdev role, I got to see him continue his career while I
PF> worked there.

I think that happens to a lot of students, even if they do have a job before starting their career work. My first job was at a fast food place before working as a software developer. My first software developer job was at a small startup in the owner's house though.. But I went to a larger corporation after that. I didn't think it was a hard transition.

Nightfox

---
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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Wed Apr 17 2024 06:29 am

> I got really cocky when I had professors who hadn't seen the light of
> day outside of a classroom trying to tell us what it was like in the
> "real world".

A college buddy and I took C++ the first semester it was offered. We each had already been using C++ for "real world" work. The kind you get paid for.

I swear, at least once per class, one of us would raise our hand and, when Mr Bell called on us, we'd tell him the code he put on the board would not work and explain why.

Neither of us would have made good instructors. But then, neither was Mr Bell. He was literally trying to learn from our textbook so he could teach the class. And doing a lousy job of it!

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Re: Re: Working in your field
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Skylar on Wed Apr 17 2024 06:37 am

> My company a few years back participated in an internship program called
> YearUp. They took kids from commuity colleges and kids working
> part-time jobs after high school. Not your usual well-to-do University
> kids.

About 20 years after my high school internship, the company that I worked for decided to offer two internship positions for college students studying comp sci. I was team lead and was responsible for giving their assignments and mentoring. Well, the best I could anyway.

Both of them were *extremely* smart, productive, and the whole experience was a great value to the company. I wanted the company to hire both of them. Unfortunately, we had some cutbacks just as the school semester was ending and hiring was not on the table.

But I gave them both good references. ;)

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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: Skylar to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 17 2024 06:21 pm

Sk> A college buddy and I took C++ the first semester it was offered. We each
Sk> had already been using C++ for "real world" work. The kind you get paid
Sk> for.

Sk> I swear, at least once per class, one of us would raise our hand and, when
Sk> Mr Bell called on us, we'd tell him the code he put on the board would not
Sk> work and explain why.

Sk> Neither of us would have made good instructors. But then, neither was Mr
Sk> Bell. He was literally trying to learn from our textbook so he could teach
Sk> the class. And doing a lousy job of it!

Wow..
Before I took any C++ classes in college, I was taking some classes from the college's CIS department and took a class in Visual Basic (I don't remember why I chose that one at the time). And this was 2000, and they were teaching VB6.. I remember one day when the teacher said something like, "One of the concepts in programming is object-oriented programming, but I'm not familiar with that, so I'm going to skip that."

On a side note, I later learned C++, and I've rarely used Visual Basic, although I have run into a couple Visual Basic .Net projects in my career.

Nightfox

---
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> Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
> By: Skylar to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 17 2024 06:21 pm

> Sk> A college buddy and I took C++ the first semester it was offered. We
> Sk> each had already been using C++ for "real world" work. The kind you get
> Sk> paid for.

> Sk> I swear, at least once per class, one of us would raise our hand and,
> Sk> when Mr Bell called on us, we'd tell him the code he put on the board
> Sk> would not work and explain why.

> Sk> Neither of us would have made good instructors. But then, neither was
> Sk> Mr Bell. He was literally trying to learn from our textbook so he could
> Sk> teach the class. And doing a lousy job of it!

> Wow..
> Before I took any C++ classes in college, I was taking some classes from the
> college's CIS department and took a class in Visual Basic (I don't remember
> why I chose that one at the time). And this was 2000, and they were
> teaching VB6.. I remember one day when the teacher said something like, "One
> of the concepts in programming is object-oriented programming, but I'm not
> familiar with that, so I'm going to skip that."

> On a side note, I later learned C++, and I've rarely used Visual Basic,
> although I have run into a couple Visual Basic .Net projects in my career.

> Nightfox

> ---
The last programming language I took a course in was Fortran77.

Regards,
-==*>Weatherman<*==-

---
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Re: Re: Programming
By: Weatherman to Nightfox on Fri Apr 19 2024 08:27 am

> The last programming language I took a course in was Fortran77.

You have my sincere condolences!

Although one of my all-time favorite BBS experiences was a BBS written in Fortran.

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-=> Skylar wrote to Weatherman <=-

Sk> Re: Re: Programming
Sk> By: Weatherman to Nightfox on Fri Apr 19 2024 08:27 am

> The last programming language I took a course in was Fortran77.

Sk> You have my sincere condolences!

Sk> Although one of my all-time favorite BBS experiences was a BBS written
Sk> in Fortran.

Sk> ---

I actually enjoyed the experience and found the language to be quite easy to
understand. The instructor was more difficult to get along with than the
language.

-==*>Weatherman<*==-

.... Direct from the Ministry of Silly Walks
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