-=> Nightfox wrote to Bf2k+ <=-

Ni> How does that work? You say they got rid of PTO, so does that mean any
Ni> time you take off is unpaid?

You take off whatever time you want, as long as you're meeting your
deliverables and your boss approves. However, when you leave, you don't
get paid out any accrued vacation time. Tricky, they are!

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-=> Nightfox wrote to Digital Man <=-

Ni> Ah, I've heard about that. It does seem like a bit of a game.. One
Ni> more thing to benefit the company and not the people who work for them.

Especially in companies that (at least before COVID) supported a
Hero/rockstar culture where people work long hours, come in sick, and
don't take vacations.

"Unlimited" PTO is a perceived benefit with little benefit to the
employee with a huge effect on company financials.

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-=> Accession wrote to Digital Man <=-

Ac> I would be absolutely surprised if nobody tries to take full advantage
Ac> of that. Every Friday off? You bet!

I had a guy working for me who wanted to take off a day of PTO as soon
as it accrued. It worked out to him putting in a PTO request every first
friday for months in a row.

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-=> Accession wrote to Nightfox <=-

Ac> Unless one decides to take the 20 weeks of paid vacation a year that
Ac> they think they deserve! :)

"I want to take a 2-week vacation 26 times a year, add 'em up..."

--Stan Ridgway, "I Wanna Be a Boss"

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Re: Unlimited PTO
By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Fri Apr 12 2024 10:35 am

>> Ah, I've heard about that. It does seem like a bit of a game.. One more
>> thing
>> to benefit the company and not the people who work for them.

DW> It depends on what kind of employee you are and what your situation is.
DW> For someone like me, it wouldn't benefit me at all because I didn't take
DW> as much time off.

I was thinking about the fact that the company wouldn't have as much debt on its books. It sounds like with unlimited vacation, they wouldn't have to give a payout for unused vacation when an employee is laid off or leaves for other reasons. So if you don't take much time off, then it still affects you.

Nightfox

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-=> poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Accession <=-

Ac> I would be absolutely surprised if nobody tries to take full advantage
Ac> of that. Every Friday off? You bet!

pF> I had a guy working for me who wanted to take off a day of PTO as
pF> soon as it accrued. It worked out to him putting in a PTO request
pF> every first friday for months in a row.

Wow, that's a pretty crappy accrual rate.

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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: Bf2k+ to MRO on Fri Apr 12 2024 05:23 am

> Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
> By: MRO to Digital Man on Thu Apr 11 2024 05:52 pm
>
> > that wouldn't work anyplace else. people would just take off until they
> > get fired.
>
> Well.. I haven't seen anyone in my company get fired or really even take
> advantage of the situation. We're not really what I would call a tech
> company although we are the largest electrical distributor in the world. My
> little group of automation engineers are a little isolated from the rest of
> the company so we don't see what goes on outside of our little group...

are you salary?
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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: Bf2k+ to MRO on Fri Apr 12 2024 05:31 am

>
> You are correct in that a plant like the one I worked in cannot have a
> policy like that. They need the people to show up every day. The machines
> need to run period or the company loses money... $3k / hr on our biggest
> machines in circa 2000 dollars. That PTO policy would never work there...

people do not want to work nowadays. it got tons worse after covid.
and all people are job jumping.
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On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 20:24:00 -0500, you wrote:

pF>> I had a guy working for me who wanted to take off a day of PTO as
pF>> soon as it accrued. It worked out to him putting in a PTO request
pF>> every first friday for months in a row.

G> Wow, that's a pretty crappy accrual rate.

Yeah man, if he wasn't taking any other days off that's only a little over 2 weeks of paid vacation when before they probably had more like 3-5 weeks. :)

Regards,
Nick

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-=> Accession wrote to Gamgee <=-

pF>> I had a guy working for me who wanted to take off a day of PTO as
pF>> soon as it accrued. It worked out to him putting in a PTO request
pF>> every first friday for months in a row.

G> Wow, that's a pretty crappy accrual rate.

Ac> Yeah man, if he wasn't taking any other days off that's only a
Ac> little over 2 weeks of paid vacation when before they probably
Ac> had more like 3-5 weeks. :)

Yep, that takes "entry-level" to a whole new..... level. ;-)

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-=> MRO wrote to Bf2k+ <=-

> You are correct in that a plant like the one I worked in cannot have a
> policy like that. They need the people to show up every day. The machines
> need to run period or the company loses money... $3k / hr on our biggest
> machines in circa 2000 dollars. That PTO policy would never work there...

MR> people do not want to work nowadays.

That's a pretty generalized statement, and not really true.

MR> it got tons worse after covid.

Probably true in *some* work environments. Certainly not in mine.

MR> and all people are job jumping.

Absolutely NOT true.

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> DW> It depends on what kind of employee you are and what your situation is.
> DW> For someone like me, it wouldn't benefit me at all because I didn't take
> DW> as much time off.

> I was thinking about the fact that the company wouldn't have as much debt on i
> books. It sounds like with unlimited vacation, they wouldn't have to give a p
> out for unused vacation when an employee is laid off or leaves for other reaso
> . So if you don't take much time off, then it still affects you.

Yeah, that is what I said -- "it wouldn't *benefit* me" because I didn't take
much time off and would have received a nice pay-out under the previous
method. ;)

OTOH, I had several co-workers who apparently didn't care about any payouts
and would have loved unlimited time.

I liked taking some time off but also wanted the $$$ so I probably wouldn't
like it if an employer converted from compensation to unlimited.

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> "Unlimited" PTO is a perceived benefit with little benefit to the
> employee with a huge effect on company financials.

Honestly, I think benefit to the employee depends. If I was working
somewhere that had the compensation method in place and switched to
unlimited, I'd be pretty upset. However, if I knew that going in, I might
see it as a benefit because there'd be no limit on how much time I took (so
long as it was approved).

As I told another poster, I used to work at a compensation method employer.
That worked *great* for me in the end, but I had a lot of co-workers who
really didn't care about the payout they might get and seemed a lot more
interested in taking time off -- they took it off almost as the accumulated
it and never carried a balance worth anything monetarily.

Some had families and took off a lot to do family things, others just
burned time. For them, they'd probably have loved unlimited PTO and seen it
as a certain benefit. To be honest, I am glad that employer never got the
idea because, if they'd put it up to a vote, my co-workers probably would
have sold those of us out that carried a lot of time in order to get their
unlimited time off.

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> Ac> I would be absolutely surprised if nobody tries to take full advantage
> Ac> of that. Every Friday off? You bet!

> I had a guy working for me who wanted to take off a day of PTO as soon
> as it accrued. It worked out to him putting in a PTO request every first
> friday for months in a row.

I worked with someone that, for several years, we knew he'd be off the
first day or two of each month immediately burning off his newly
accumulated sick days. If he got sick later in the month, he'd be in the
office, germs and all.

I don't know what happened but, later, he quit doing that. Maybe he
realized it was getting closer to retirement and he wanted the days.
There, you didn't get monetary compensation for sick days but they instead
counted towards service time.

I don't know if he burned his vacation/PTO days like that, too, or not.
For a while I was in another office where we had a young lady who burned
through both sick and PTO every month.

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Re: Unlimited PTO
By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Sat Apr 13 2024 09:49 am

DW> Honestly, I think benefit to the employee depends. If I was working
DW> somewhere that had the compensation method in place and switched to
DW> unlimited, I'd be pretty upset. However, if I knew that going in, I might
DW> see it as a benefit because there'd be no limit on how much time I took
DW> (so long as it was approved).

There's a chance you might not be able to take much time off, because things are too busy and/or your manager doesn't approve it. In that situation, I'd still like to have a payout if possible.

Nightfox

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Re: Unlimited PTO
By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Sat Apr 13 2024 03:38 pm

> Re: Unlimited PTO
> By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Sat Apr 13 2024 09:49 am
>
> DW> Honestly, I think benefit to the employee depends. If I was working
> DW> somewhere that had the compensation method in place and switched to
> DW> unlimited, I'd be pretty upset. However, if I knew that going in, I
> DW> might see it as a benefit because there'd be no limit on how much time
> DW> I took (so long as it was approved).
>
> There's a chance you might not be able to take much time off, because things
> are too busy and/or your manager doesn't approve it. In that situation, I'd
> still like to have a payout if possible.
>

unlimited pto sounds like a crock for salary workers. especially since you have to get it approved. your manager could pinch you and have you work more than you would when you had a set amount of days of pto.
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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: MRO to Bf2k+ on Fri Apr 12 2024 04:44 pm

> are you salary?
Yes.

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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: MRO to Bf2k+ on Fri Apr 12 2024 04:45 pm

> people do not want to work nowadays. it got tons worse after covid.
> and all people are job jumping.

Yep... me and the guys in my group are all old farts who are getting ready to retire. And when we try to hire young people to train to take our places, they either can't or don't want to cut it. It's a scary situation.

I'm glad my kids (who are in their late 30's) are not like that...

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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: Bf2k+ to MRO on Sat Apr 13 2024 08:28 pm

> Yep... me and the guys in my group are all old farts who are getting ready
> to retire. And when we try to hire young people to train to take our places,
> they either can't or don't want to cut it. It's a scary situation.

I wonder if education programs are at fault.

As in, college graduates barely know how to code the basics so companies have to train them nearly from the ground up. It certainly seems that way in lots of fields.

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-=> Arelor wrote to Bf2k+ <=-

Ar> As in, college graduates barely know how to code the basics so
Ar> companies have to train them nearly from the ground up. It certainly
Ar> seems that way in lots of fields.

I wonder how many college kids nowadays have jobs that are at least
field-adjacent. We're pushing our son to get an internship this summer
so he can get some on the job experience and some resume line items
besides "worked in a grocery store". Without some experience in a
corporate environment, that first job would be a serious culture shock,
and you'd be asked to do things that you don't have a lot of experience
with - basic things like email etiquette and Excel skills.

I worked in my field and finished up school part time, so I felt like I
had some chops before I left school.

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Re: Eclipse travel
By: Dumas Walker to TINY on Mon Apr 08 2024 08:35 am

> Not a bad plan. I learned from the last one that trying to travel on the
> day of a eclipse is not a good idea -- urban style traffic jams out in the
> middle of nowhere. ;)

Cleveland was actually easy in and out. The 2017 one I was stuck in horrendus traffic!

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Re: Eclipse travel
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Mon Apr 08 2024 04:25 pm

> i was literally working outside during the eclipse. we saw a lot of people
> walk out of businesses and stare into the sun.

https://x.com/JonathanSackett/status/1777833258459234521

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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: phigan to Bf2k+ on Thu Apr 11 2024 10:25 am

> Actually they did it because if you
> don't accrue time off, they don't have
> to pay it out when you leave.

People in general end up working more too. And people that abuse the system just get fired. It's a pretty sweet deal for companies.

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Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: Digital Man to Accession on Thu Apr 11 2024 04:22 pm

> That's the thing: it rarely happens that people take much more vacation than
> the average. The average is *less* than what was typically afforded
> emlpoyees (before this trend), so companies are saving money and don't have
> to carry any debt on their books.

Some people would see vacation days on the books and force themselves to take it and now they don't.

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Re: Re: HAPPY TRANSGENDER DAY
By: MRO to Bf2k+ on Fri Apr 12 2024 04:45 pm

> people do not want to work nowadays. it got tons worse after covid.
> and all people are job jumping.

https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1549527748950892544

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