On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 22:48:41 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:42:13 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 18:05:44 -0700, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:20:01 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
>>>> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:00:08 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We, my parents and I, visited the dome in Maine where the Telstars
>>>>>> were controlled from, and the expensive transatlantic phone calls went
>>>>>> through. I tried to take a photo on the antenna, inside the geodesic
>>>>>> dome, but I didn't have a flash. I think I still have the B&W photos
>>>>>> of the exterior.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could be worth trying to digitally archiving them.
>>>>
>>>> Have to find them... in one of around 100 storage boxes in a storage
>>>> shed where the wasps like to fly around and sting. I do try looking
>>>> through them. Found some of my early photo albums, but not those
>>>> pictures.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Wow, I thought I was bad! I’ve got probably 30 boxes in my office, and am
>>>trying to work thru them a few at a time. Easy to toss out the “why did I
>>>take this” photos if hills and lakes, but that still leaves a lot. My goal
>>>is to digitize the few of them worth saving and have them all cleaned out.
>>
>> Back last century when my dad was in the US Army, he asked the mover
>> why our furniture weghed so much. The boss of the truck pointed to me
>> and said half of the weight was mine.
>>
>> I have been finding, and shredding into confetti, my university
>> homework. And other things I don't need.
>
>Sad when documents fade out of existence because people who have access
>don't bother and eventually pass away. A company specialized in clearing
>out might just turn them into confetti.

Most of the stuff we wrote at university was rather simplistic,
looking back on it.

>One guy did it though Christmas a few years ago as gift. He had Amiga
>floppy disks where documents were saved I wrote in the 1980s. He managed
>to dump the content into a file. And although I don't own an Amiga
>anymore I could fire up an emulator to see them again. Was a great
>feeling of nostalgia for me.

I still have the hundred or so Fred Fish floppies I bought for $1 each
decades ago. My relatives want me to throw them out, probably happen
after I die.

I have seen them online, so it may not be a loss.
--
Jim

On Tue, 02 Aug 2022 11:21:12 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 22:48:41 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
>
>>One guy did it though Christmas a few years ago as gift. He had Amiga
>>floppy disks where documents were saved I wrote in the 1980s. He managed
>>to dump the content into a file. And although I don't own an Amiga
>>anymore I could fire up an emulator to see them again. Was a great
>>feeling of nostalgia for me.
>
> I still have the hundred or so Fred Fish floppies I bought for $1 each
> decades ago. My relatives want me to throw them out, probably happen
> after I die.
>
> I have seen them online, so it may not be a loss.

Yep. If copies exist on a secure place (archive.org for example)
discarding originals is not a loss.
--
Andreas

> Yep. If copies exist on a secure place (archive.org for example)
> discarding originals is not a loss.

But you can always use the floppies!

On 8/2/2022 6:18 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Aug 2022 11:21:12 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 22:48:41 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
>>
>>> One guy did it though Christmas a few years ago as gift. He had Amiga
>>> floppy disks where documents were saved I wrote in the 1980s. He managed
>>> to dump the content into a file. And although I don't own an Amiga
>>> anymore I could fire up an emulator to see them again. Was a great
>>> feeling of nostalgia for me.
>>
>> I still have the hundred or so Fred Fish floppies I bought for $1 each
>> decades ago. My relatives want me to throw them out, probably happen
>> after I die.
>>
>> I have seen them online, so it may not be a loss.
>
> Yep. If copies exist on a secure place (archive.org for example)
> discarding originals is not a loss.

So long as archive.org remains intact. Helping finance them helps, but
there are no guarantees.

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 7:52:45 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
> Roger Blake <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:
> > On 2022-07-27, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> >> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
> >> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
> >> US in the "computer race".
> >
> > The Russkie talks big but frankly he's short on know-how. You can't expect
> > a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys..
> >
> The thing is, there are a lot of smart Russians. Their programming skills
> are tops, but unfortunately they seem to apply them more to hacking than
> productive uses. I think it’s mostly their system that holds them back. The
> current idiot in the Kremlin hasn’t helped
>

Another example might be the fumbling of the Tetris property. Hard to harness
without a strong concept of Intellectual Property.

On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 03:03:14 -0000 (UTC), phigan wrote:
>
>> Yep. If copies exist on a secure place (archive.org for example)
>> discarding originals is not a loss.
>
> But you can always use the floppies!

They'll suffer from data degradation over time.

Same (worse) with the cassette tapes with self-written programs on it I
mentioned. If they're not (not already have been) archived, they're gone
(soon).

BTW. I see that at some Youtubers with a vintage topic. Some restore
old computers and then try to boot software coming with them. In recent
years I see more and more struggling to get them read, although a fresh
formatted floppy still works (so no hardware fault of the drive itself).
--
Andreas

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 03:03:14 -0000 (UTC), phigan wrote:
>>
>>> Yep. If copies exist on a secure place (archive.org for example)
>>> discarding originals is not a loss.
>>
>> But you can always use the floppies!
>
> They'll suffer from data degradation over time.
>
> Same (worse) with the cassette tapes with self-written programs on it I
> mentioned. If they're not (not already have been) archived, they're gone
> (soon).
>
> BTW. I see that at some Youtubers with a vintage topic. Some restore
> old computers and then try to boot software coming with them. In recent
> years I see more and more struggling to get them read, although a fresh
> formatted floppy still works (so no hardware fault of the drive itself).

I think there’s some software that can get at least some data off a
degraded or copy-protected floppy.

--
Pete

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Peter Flass wrote:

> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 03:03:14 -0000 (UTC), phigan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yep. If copies exist on a secure place (archive.org for example)
>>>> discarding originals is not a loss.
>>>
>>> But you can always use the floppies!
>>
>> They'll suffer from data degradation over time.
>>
>> Same (worse) with the cassette tapes with self-written programs on it I
>> mentioned. If they're not (not already have been) archived, they're gone
>> (soon).
>>
>> BTW. I see that at some Youtubers with a vintage topic. Some restore
>> old computers and then try to boot software coming with them. In recent
>> years I see more and more struggling to get them read, although a fresh
>> formatted floppy still works (so no hardware fault of the drive itself).
>
> I think there’s some software that can get at least some data off a
> degraded or copy-protected floppy.

Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.

Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact for
centuries.

--
₪ BUD ₪

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> wrote:

> Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.

You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
required.

> Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
> for centuries.

Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 18:09:09 +0100
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
> Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>
> > Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
>
> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
> required.
>
> > Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
> > for centuries.
>
> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.
>
And an awful lot of info as to who owes how many bushels of grain to whom
isn't terribly relevant after 6k years. Maybe future bit-archaeologists
will wonder about our cult of the god Mario.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
> Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>
>> Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
>
> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
> required.

Still you need to store that data some media that is holding it for a long
time. No floppy disks nor SDDs are going to stand for very long time.

>> Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
>> for centuries.
>
> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.

Well ... those are the best options for very very critical data one have
to store for a long time. Didn't mean clay tablets.

--
₪ BUD ₪

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:11:21 +0100
"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> And an awful lot of info as to who owes how many bushels of grain to whom
> isn't terribly relevant after 6k years. Maybe future bit-archaeologists
> will wonder about our cult of the god Mario.

They'll be cursing the exabytes of access logs cluttering the
archives.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 08:23:18 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 03:03:14 -0000 (UTC), phigan wrote:
>
>>> But you can always use the floppies!
>>
>> They'll suffer from data degradation over time.
>>
>> Same (worse) with the cassette tapes with self-written programs on it I
>> mentioned. If they're not (not already have been) archived, they're gone
>> (soon).
>>
>> BTW. I see that at some Youtubers with a vintage topic. Some restore
>> old computers and then try to boot software coming with them. In recent
>> years I see more and more struggling to get them read, although a fresh
>> formatted floppy still works (so no hardware fault of the drive itself).
>
> I think there’s some software that can get at least some data off a
> degraded or copy-protected floppy.

So lets wait (for no reason) another 30 years to back them up...

Actually it's a hardware thing. You could accelerate degrading by
exposing magnetic media to a magnet like in a loud speaker. At some point
these media are "blank". No external software can rescue data.
--
Andreas

On 04/08/2022 18:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> [...] Clay tablets hold the current
> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.

For /human/ data, perhaps, but varves, ice cores, tree rings
and similar record information about the climate, the atmosphere and
astronomical phenomena over much longer periods.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Peerson

On Friday, August 5, 2022 at 3:30:30 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
> Bud Spencer <b...@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>
> > Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
> required.
> > Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
> > for centuries.
..
> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.
..
Punch cards?

Robin Vowels wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Clay tablets hold the current record for data retention
>> but the bit density is terrible.
> .
> Punch cards?

Check with Ray Bradbury ...

On Fri, 5 Aug 2022 09:32:13 +0100
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

>
> Robin Vowels wrote:
>
> > Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >
> >> Clay tablets hold the current record for data retention
> >> but the bit density is terrible.
> > .
> > Punch cards?
>
> Check with Ray Bradbury ...

Also damp, mould and mice.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Robin Vowels wrote:

> On Friday, August 5, 2022 at 3:30:30 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
>> Bud Spencer <b...@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
>> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
>> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
>> required.
>>> Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
>>> for centuries.
> .
>> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
>> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.
> .
> Punch cards?

Sure, if you have a military base sized storage for your recent vacation
photos :)

--
₪ BUD ₪

On Fri, 5 Aug 2022 13:37:22 +0300
Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Robin Vowels wrote:
>
> > Punch cards?
>
> Sure, if you have a military base sized storage for your recent vacation
> photos :)

Hmm streaming video off punch cards - I make it on close order of a
million cards a minute and I am not volunteering to keep the hopper filled!

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

( cuts )
>
> Hmm streaming video off punch cards - I make it on close order of a
> million cards a minute and I am not volunteering to keep the hopper
> filled!
>

"Buffering -card jam"

Freddy,
Thats why paper tape is superior! ;)

--
When using this product do not use more than directed.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/| I may be demented \|
/| but I'm not crazy! \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
* SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address *

On Fri, 5 Aug 2022, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Aug 2022 13:37:22 +0300
> Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Robin Vowels wrote:
>>
>>> Punch cards?
>>
>> Sure, if you have a military base sized storage for your recent vacation
>> photos :)
>
> Hmm streaming video off punch cards - I make it on close order of a
> million cards a minute and I am not volunteering to keep the hopper filled!

Sound estimate ...

--
₪ BUD ₪

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 18:09:09 +0100
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
>> Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
>>
>> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
>> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
>> required.
>>
>>> Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
>>> for centuries.
>>
>> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
>> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.
>>
> And an awful lot of info as to who owes how many bushels of grain to whom
> isn't terribly relevant after 6k years. Maybe future bit-archaeologists
> will wonder about our cult of the god Mario.
>

You never know what would be relevant. I’ve said before, records of tax
receipts for the port of Londinium over some years would present an
interesting picture of the economy of Britannia.

--
Pete

Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, August 5, 2022 at 3:30:30 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
>> Bud Spencer <b...@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
>> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
>> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
>> required.
>>> Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
>>> for centuries.
> .
>> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
>> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.
> .
> Punch cards?
>

If the rodents and bugs don’t get them they will last as long as a book
printed on good paper, but it becomes very difficult to read them after a
while. I think optical scanning, possibly hand-fed, works best later.

--
Pete

> Sound estimate ...

No, it was a video estimate.

De

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 10:26:06 PM UTC-6, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-07-29, jtmpreno <no...@znet.com> wrote:

> > That sounds like it came from Dr. Strangelove.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6b9wp7lsxo

Thank you for providing the source of the quote.

John Savard