On 22/09/2021 04.05, knuttle wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 7:50 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 22/09/2021 00.24, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>>>> it for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>>>> price for M$O.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people
>>>>> will.
>>>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others
>>>>> use.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
>>>>> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
>>>> or need division tabs.
>>>
>>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>>
>>
>> I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
>> anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.
>>
>>
> People who send Christmas cards.

Gosh, those have to be hand written!

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22/09/2021 08.45, Andy Burns wrote:
> RabidHussar wrote:
>
>> No reason to chuck anything out. Like everyone else has pointed out,
>> they plan on supporting 2025 which gives your hardware more than
>> enough time to be useful before you finally decide to move on.
>
> Indeed this machine will likely stay on Win10, my work laptop can go to
> Win11
>
>> If you don't want to part with it then, Linux will resurrect it
>> without issue. It's already quite cool but by then, it will probably
>> be an absolutely stellar alternative to Windows 10 or 11.
>
> I'm quite happy with Linux as my 'server' O/S, the last time I tried
> linux for my daily desktop O/S I did eventually go back to windows, it
> has improved since then, but the issue (commercial software with no
> Linux flavour) still exists and it only takes a single app to be
> unavailable to kill it for me ...
>

Yeah, of course, to migrate you have to accept (or embrace) that it will
be different applications. Many things are different, expecting the same
will lead to unhappiness. Thus, stay with Windows :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P

I generally print letters to align with window envelopes, or print address
labels to stick on plain envelopes.

On 22/09/2021 11.29, Andy Burns wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>
> I generally print letters to align with window envelopes, or print
> address labels to stick on plain envelopes.

Me too - but even then, it is maybe once a year.

There are parcels, though - impossible to print them, has to be a label.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 11:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> But your language antagonizes them.

Only sometimes.

On 9/21/21 11:45 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> but the issue (commercial software with no Linux flavour) still exists
> and it only takes a single app to be unavailable to kill it for me ...

I see it All-The-Time in small businesses. There
is always one commercial app they must have that
is Windows only

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 22.51, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 7:32 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
>>> The tax software is probably useful considering how complicated it can
>>> be to sort things out at that level but few realized that these things
>>> were eventually going to become web applications which rendered the
>>> operating system choice irrelevant.
>>
>> That would make it agnostic.  And creepy as all hell
>
> Well, it is what we have in Spain ;-)

Same in the UK. Much better than the paper-based forms. Only if you have to
declare additional tax, most cases are dealt with by your employer.

T wrote:

> There is always one commercial app they must have that is Windows only

For me, the last couple of years that app is SketchUp, 90% I could get by with
the freebie non-commercial version, it's surprisingly good for a web-based app,
but accurate printing of scale drawings to PDF just isn't there in the web
version ... or if it's there I haven't found the magic printer driver settings.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 23.39, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 1:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 21/09/2021 22.51, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 7:32 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
>>>>> The tax software is probably useful considering how complicated it can
>>>>> be to sort things out at that level but few realized that these things
>>>>> were eventually going to become web applications which rendered the
>>>>> operating system choice irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>> That would make it agnostic.  And creepy as all hell
>>>
>>> Well, it is what we have in Spain ;-)
>>>
>>
>> Does it rain in the plain?  (A bad reference to a
>> Broadway play.)
>
> I know. I did not know the first time I heard that reference from my
> British aunt, and I took it literally: it does not rain mainly in the plain.

Although, there were right when they said that in Hertford, Hereford and
Hampshire hurricanes hardly ever happen ;)

>>
>> You give private data on line, IT WILL BE HARVESTED.
>> The temptation is too great, despite the laws and
>> what the say.  Google has done this to us.
>
> You are mistaken :-)

Correct.

> Basically the government here already knows, the forms are already
> filled with the correct data and we basically only need to sign and pay
> (the income tax).

It's the government website which either already has your data or will be
the custodian for it anyway so the website has little to no additional
risk.

> The security on that "web site" is paranoid. I have not heard complains
> about it.
>
>>
>> I use GNU Cash.  Hard a hell to figure out, but once you
>> get there, it is a dream.  Small businesses CAN NOT
>> use Gnu Cash as it does not do payroll or inventory.
>> So back to Windows.  And no accounting firm will
>> take a Gnu Cash file.  They tell you to go home
>> and get Quick Books.  Small businesses will also
>> not pay for a smart enough employee to figure out
>> Gnu Cash.
>
> There are business I know that do not use Quick, they stay Linux only,
> and are successful :-p
>
> Here they would likely use "Contaplus", of which I understand there are
> Linux versions or equivalent.
>
>>
>> There is a Quick Books for Apple too, but it major
>> sucks.  Accounting firms tell folks with Apple
>> Quickbooks files to go home, buy a windows machine
>> and install Quick books for Windows.
>>
>> I use LibreOffice and Free Office.  LibreOffice is a
>> damned nightmare.  ZERO of my customer will use it.
>> They pretty much cuss it.
>
> I know many other customers that use it.
>
>>
>> It has to do with the Open Source economic model, where
>> you give away the software for free and charge for
>> maintenance. 

Nope. The maintenance is open and you can contribute. You're given the
source code so can fix it yourself if you so wish.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 at 08:05:18, RabidHussar <rabid@huss.ar> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
>On 2021-09-22 2:45 a.m., Andy Burns wrote:
[]
> I'm quite happy with Linux as my 'server' O/S, the last time I tried
> linux for my daily desktop O/S I did eventually go back to windows,
> it has improved since then, but the issue (commercial software with
> no Linux flavour) still exists and it only takes a single app to be
> unavailable to kill it for me ...
>
On the other hand, I (a Windows user) occasionally hear of something
available on Linux that sounds nice.
>
>I'm clearly not as picky when it comes to software as you are. If some
>software is not available, I simply find a way to compromise with
>whatever IS available. I've also seen a bunch of posts detailing why I
>shouldn't like LibreOffice but, for my purposes, it's pretty good. I
>imagine that a lot of why people don't like LibreOffice is because they
>expect something to work the way that it does in Microsoft Office and
>since it doesn't, instead of learning what to do instead, they simply
>give it a bad review or whatever. Admittedly, I don't do much other

that's probably true in lots of settings; I'm sure it applies in
upgrades too, whether to individual softwares or Windows itself. The
developers have a quandary: they _could_ let the old way continue to
work too, but the danger of doing that is that the existing users would
just continue to use the old way, even if the new way is genuinely
better once you've learnt it. Office (or at least Word) had an
interesting approach: in (I think it was) the 2007 version, if you typed
a key sequence you were familiar with from the previous version (such as
alt-I, T for insert, table), it produced a popup saying something like
"keystroke from old version recognised - you may continue", and you
could indeed continue (ignoring the popup if you wanted. I _think_ they
only kept that in for an iteration or two - certainly, when I use the
latest Office365, I _can't_ use many of the things I'm used to (I use
2003, as it does all I want [and still runs under 10]).

>than use the word processor since I don't do spreadsheets or databases
>though.
>
>
>As for Linux as a desktop operating system, I don't see what the issue
>is. If you use KDE or GNOME, you might not enjoy it as a daily driver
>but Cinnamon is not significantly different from Windows and in most
>cases ends up being faster and more customizable.

A lot of people suggest Mint as a default, too.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Q. How much is 2 + 2?
A. Thank you so much for asking your question.
Are you still having this problem? I'll be delighted to help you. Please
restate the problem twice and include your Windows version along with
all error logs.
- Mayayana in alt.windows7.general, 2018-11-1

On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:50:44 -0700, T wrote:

> On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
>> "Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
>> created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
>> pro".
>
> Uuuhhhhh ... Wine is Linux. I am running Word Pro on Wine.

That's the second time you've mentioned a Lotus SmartSuite program!
They are much missed, but it's possible to install the suite on
Windows, just not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display (v
useful once you get it running). The 123 spreadsheet though feels a
little old fashioned after MSFT Excel.

On 22/09/2021 13.22, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 11:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> But your language antagonizes them.
>
> Only sometimes.

But they file you as nuisance, and then ignore you largely. It can happen.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22/09/2021 13.24, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 11:45 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> but the issue (commercial software with no Linux flavour) still exists
>> and it only takes a single app to be unavailable to kill it for me ...
>
> I see it All-The-Time in small businesses.  There
> is always one commercial app they must have that
> is Windows only
>

Sure, it happens.

I have the policy of not trying to actually switch people to Linux
unless they are really convinced already and know what it takes, or it
bites me back ;-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22/09/2021 13.45, Chris wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 21/09/2021 23.39, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 1:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 21/09/2021 22.51, T wrote:
>>>>> On 9/21/21 7:32 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
>>>>>> The tax software is probably useful considering how complicated it can
>>>>>> be to sort things out at that level but few realized that these things
>>>>>> were eventually going to become web applications which rendered the
>>>>>> operating system choice irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would make it agnostic.  And creepy as all hell
>>>>
>>>> Well, it is what we have in Spain ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Does it rain in the plain?  (A bad reference to a
>>> Broadway play.)
>>
>> I know. I did not know the first time I heard that reference from my
>> British aunt, and I took it literally: it does not rain mainly in the plain.
>
> Although, there were right when they said that in Hertford, Hereford and
> Hampshire hurricanes hardly ever happen ;)
>
>>>
>>> You give private data on line, IT WILL BE HARVESTED.
>>> The temptation is too great, despite the laws and
>>> what the say.  Google has done this to us.
>>
>> You are mistaken :-)
>
> Correct.
>
>> Basically the government here already knows, the forms are already
>> filled with the correct data and we basically only need to sign and pay
>> (the income tax).
>
> It's the government website which either already has your data or will be
> the custodian for it anyway so the website has little to no additional
> risk.

I think the data is not actually on the web site, but on mainframes
behind running mainframe oses and programs. The web is just an interface.

There have been a row of hacker attacks these past month, and AFAIK,
this service is intact. Another ministry, work and social services, was
attacked. The web was down for days and affected for weeks, but the
actual big machines with the actual services are intact.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/22/21 9:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 13.22, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 11:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> But your language antagonizes them.
>>
>> Only sometimes.
>
> But they file you as nuisance, and then ignore you largely. It can happen.
>

Not so far. If you read some of those reports
I posted, I am mild in my mannerism as opposed
to others.

Did you catch the professional writer that let loose
on the division tabs who told them they had only
managed to match Word Perfect for DOS. He
ripped them but good.

You will also notice when I write on bug reports,
I hold back on my criticism. I am typically very
polite.

Maybe you are comparing my writing on this group?
I can let fly and often do. That is one of the
benefits of this group: you can talk freely and
openly.

On 9/22/21 9:41 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 13.24, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 11:45 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> but the issue (commercial software with no Linux flavour) still exists
>>> and it only takes a single app to be unavailable to kill it for me ...
>>
>> I see it All-The-Time in small businesses.  There
>> is always one commercial app they must have that
>> is Windows only
>>
>
> Sure, it happens.
>
> I have the policy of not trying to actually switch people to Linux
> unless they are really convinced already and know what it takes, or it
> bites me back ;-)
>
Same here.

Even if they are a great match for Linux, a few months
from today, they will find a Windows program they suddenly
can't live without. Kind of a time bomb waiting to
explode all over me.

I will do Linux servers. They are great for FTP backups
of local machines. Ransomware has yet to figure a way
around FTP. And Samba is quite a bit faster than Windows
file sharing.

But mostly, I just pick out a good Windows workstation
and do file sharing no-a-days. I know the registry
switch to flip that removes the performance block
for workstation file sharing. If the customer orders
a custom machine from me for such, I will throw
RAID 1 on it.

My current favorite motherboard now-a-days has two
NVMe slots on it. But I have heard that RAID 1
does not work so well on NVMe drives.

On 22/09/2021 22.16, RabidHussar wrote:
> On 2021-09-22 12:41 p.m., Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 13.24, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 11:45 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> but the issue (commercial software with no Linux flavour) still exists
>>>> and it only takes a single app to be unavailable to kill it for me ...
>>> I see it All-The-Time in small businesses.  There
>>> is always one commercial app they must have that
>>> is Windows only
>>>
>> Sure, it happens.
>>
>> I have the policy of not trying to actually switch people to Linux
>> unless they are really convinced already and know what it takes, or it
>> bites me back ;-)
>
> I suggest Linux to anyone who frankly doesn't even know what system
> they're running on their computer and end up either having their
> computer become unusable because of a) malware, b) a poorly-implemented
> Windows update like the one which prevented a log in to desktop for 30
> minutes on HP machines, c) a user's inability to do even the slightest
> amount of system maintenance. With something like Mint, I know that I
> can get everything installed and working adequately within the hour
> whereas if I agree to fix their Windows machine, installing will take me
> a minimum of an hour, updates will take another two, all of the software
> downloads might take another and driver updates another. Then, even when
> everything is up and running properly, you're guaranteed to get a call
> because your friend Dwarf Donglicker decides to return to square one by
> yet again falling for some malware. With Mint, they never call you again
> because it just works and malware has no effect on the thing.

And because you do not give them the root password >;-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/22/21 3:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 22.16, RabidHussar wrote:
>> On 2021-09-22 12:41 p.m., Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 22/09/2021 13.24, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 11:45 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> but the issue (commercial software with no Linux flavour) still exists
>>>>> and it only takes a single app to be unavailable to kill it for me ...
>>>> I see it All-The-Time in small businesses.  There
>>>> is always one commercial app they must have that
>>>> is Windows only
>>>>
>>> Sure, it happens.
>>>
>>> I have the policy of not trying to actually switch people to Linux
>>> unless they are really convinced already and know what it takes, or it
>>> bites me back ;-)
>>
>> I suggest Linux to anyone who frankly doesn't even know what system
>> they're running on their computer and end up either having their
>> computer become unusable because of a) malware, b) a poorly-implemented
>> Windows update like the one which prevented a log in to desktop for 30
>> minutes on HP machines, c) a user's inability to do even the slightest
>> amount of system maintenance. With something like Mint, I know that I
>> can get everything installed and working adequately within the hour
>> whereas if I agree to fix their Windows machine, installing will take me
>> a minimum of an hour, updates will take another two, all of the software
>> downloads might take another and driver updates another. Then, even when
>> everything is up and running properly, you're guaranteed to get a call
>> because your friend Dwarf Donglicker decides to return to square one by
>> yet again falling for some malware. With Mint, they never call you again
>> because it just works and malware has no effect on the thing.
>
> And because you do not give them the root password >;-)
>

MATE is so simple and easy to use too.

On 9/22/21 8:53 AM, mechanic wrote:
> not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display

There are a bunch of help files on the ISO
in the Extra's directory

/SmartSuite-N99.8.0208.0800.iso/ISO9660/EXTRA/

Never found them very useful. DuckDuckGo works better

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Blatant example: Acrobat. There is no current version of acrobat reader,
> they ceased to produce it.
>
>
Guess it depends on how 'current version' is defined.

Acrobat Reader is available in Continuous or Classic track
Both are 'current', document cloud based.
The former with ongoing access to service based tools and more frequent
program/feature updates.
The latter has no access to service based tools, few if any feature
updates, with only security and platform updates quarterly. Occasionally
security updates when necessary may be released and available interim of
the quarter updates. Classic is the closest to earlier 11X build.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤n

On 23/09/2021 02.39, ...w¡ñ§±¤n wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> Blatant example: Acrobat. There is no current version of acrobat reader,
>> they ceased to produce it.
>>
>>
> Guess it depends on how 'current version' is defined.
>
> Acrobat Reader is available in Continuous or Classic track

Maybe you are missing that we were not talking of the Windows version of
acrobat reader?

> Both are 'current', document cloud based.
> The former with ongoing access to service based tools and more frequent
> program/feature updates.
> The latter has no access to service based tools, few if any feature
> updates, with only security and platform updates quarterly. Occasionally
> security updates when necessary may be released and available interim of
> the quarter updates.  Classic is the closest to earlier 11X build.
>
>
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 23/09/2021 01.32, RabidHussar wrote:
> On 2021-09-22 6:52 p.m., Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 22.16, RabidHussar wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-22 12:41 p.m., Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 22/09/2021 13.24, T wrote:
>>>>> On 9/21/21 11:45 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>> but the issue (commercial software with no Linux flavour) still exists
>>>>>> and it only takes a single app to be unavailable to kill it for me ...
>>>>> I see it All-The-Time in small businesses.  There
>>>>> is always one commercial app they must have that
>>>>> is Windows only
>>>>>
>>>> Sure, it happens.
>>>>
>>>> I have the policy of not trying to actually switch people to Linux
>>>> unless they are really convinced already and know what it takes, or it
>>>> bites me back ;-)
>>> I suggest Linux to anyone who frankly doesn't even know what system
>>> they're running on their computer and end up either having their
>>> computer become unusable because of a) malware, b) a poorly-implemented
>>> Windows update like the one which prevented a log in to desktop for 30
>>> minutes on HP machines, c) a user's inability to do even the slightest
>>> amount of system maintenance. With something like Mint, I know that I
>>> can get everything installed and working adequately within the hour
>>> whereas if I agree to fix their Windows machine, installing will take me
>>> a minimum of an hour, updates will take another two, all of the software
>>> downloads might take another and driver updates another. Then, even when
>>> everything is up and running properly, you're guaranteed to get a call
>>> because your friend Dwarf Donglicker decides to return to square one by
>>> yet again falling for some malware. With Mint, they never call you again
>>> because it just works and malware has no effect on the thing.
>> And because you do not give them the root password >;-)
>>
> It would be tempting, but their computer would be utterly useless if I
> didn't allow them to install the software I might not have considered as
> well as their updates. :)

Good grief, I know people that destroy their system beyond repair every
other month.

Think of it as an enterprise environment: staff should not be able to
install anything, no one is admin, except the admin. That way, even
windows survives years with no issues.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:32:08 -0700, T wrote:

> On 9/22/21 8:53 AM, mechanic wrote:
>> not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display
>
> There are a bunch of help files on the ISO
> in the Extra's directory
>
> /SmartSuite-N99.8.0208.0800.iso/ISO9660/EXTRA/
>
> Never found them very useful. DuckDuckGo works better

Yes, but they won't display on modern windows - you need
the XP winhlp32.exe file.

On 9/23/21 6:17 AM, mechanic wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:32:08 -0700, T wrote:
>
>> On 9/22/21 8:53 AM, mechanic wrote:
>>> not so obvious how to get the helpfile to display
>>
>> There are a bunch of help files on the ISO
>> in the Extra's directory
>>
>> /SmartSuite-N99.8.0208.0800.iso/ISO9660/EXTRA/
>>
>> Never found them very useful. DuckDuckGo works better
>
> Yes, but they won't display on modern windows - you need
> the XP winhlp32.exe file.
>

Since am using Wine, all that stuff just works,
which is unusual. Mostly Wine has a lot of issues

On 9/23/21 2:41 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Think of it as an enterprise environment: staff should not be able to
> install anything, no one is admin, except the admin. That way, even
> windows survives years with no issues.

In other words, turn it into an "appliance".

:-D