On 21/09/2021 23.57, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 11:04 AM, philo wrote:
>> On 9/20/21 4:19 AM, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>>> In article <cmegkgteg5f95vbl5u2pg901lna5r00r6j@4ax.com>,
>>> Ralph Fox  <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> The cat is already out of the bag.
>>>>
>>>> <https://news.aioe.org/tools/groupslist/index.php?id=groupslist&group=alt.comp.os.windows-11&exclude=3>
>>>>
>>>
>>> While we're at it...
>>>
>>> Let's get ahead of the curve.  Let's create a Windows 12 group right
>>> now.
>>>
>>> And Windows 13.  And Windows 14.  And...
>>>
>>> BTW, saw a TV add for Windows 11 a day or so ago.  The virus is
>>> spreading...
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks. Just made my first post there
>
> Still not on Infernal November

I just found it on individual.net, after telling Thunderbird to refresh
groups.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 21/09/2021 23.54, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 6:31 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> I haven't tried. I don't have a TPM module in any of my machines.
>
> Install qemu-kvm on your Linux machine.  Then create
> a virtual machne for W11.  It has a TPM module.
> At the end of installation, do a customer confuration
> and add UEFI adn Secure Boot

Noted.

But I only use vmware player or virtualbox. One has his own comfort
niches ;-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 3:07 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 2:50 PM, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>> it for me.
>>
>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>
>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>
>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>> price for M$O.
>
>
> I have a copy of Microsoft Office 2016, which I got for free (legally,
> but I won't go into how). As I said, the only thing I use it for is
> Excel and I don't use that much.
>
> I think that both Open Office and Free Office are still installed here,
> but since I never use either, I'm not sure. I know they were once
> installed because I wanted to see what they were like.
>
> I use WordPerfect (which I also got for free legally) for word
> processing and Thunderbird for e-mail, both of which I prefer to any
> alternatives. Except for Excel, it's rare that I have a need for
> anything else in an Office suite.
>
> Occasionally, I need to look a .doc or .docx file, but WordPerfect
> handles them fine, as far as I'm concerned.

Word Perfect is a great program. .doc and .docx support
was vastly improved after M$ bought Word Perfect. Great
for Law Firms that intermix WP and M$O files.

I still use Lotus Word Pro. Does great envelopes and has
divisions tabs. And it works under Wine too (some gotchas).

On 9/21/2021 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>> it for me.
>>
>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>
>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>
>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>> price for M$O.
>
> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.

Using what others use is the most important criterion for many (most?)
people. Popularity is very important. As an example, many people will
disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned, despite its popularity,
Microsoft Word is greatly inferior to WordPerfect.

I pay no attention to popularity. I choose what I like best (sometimes
modified by price). Sometimes my choices are practically unknown by most
people. Directory Opus is an example.

--
Ken

On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>> it for me.
>>
>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>
>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>
>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>> price for M$O.
>
> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>
> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>
>

You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
or need division tabs.

I too have used LO since its inception. Hated Open Office.
LO does not fix its bugs anymore, unless you put them
on your payroll. I hate being held hostage. I am
constantly pissed at them.

The one thing I have noticed with customers is that
they refuse to learn anything new. I try to accommodate
them as far a I can go, but there is a tipping point ...

On 9/21/21 3:20 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>> it for me.
>>>
>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>
>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>
>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>> price for M$O.
>>
>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>
>
>
> Using what others use is the most important criterion for many (most?)
> people. Popularity is very important. As an example, many people will
> disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned, despite its popularity,
> Microsoft Word is greatly inferior to WordPerfect.
>
> I pay no attention to popularity. I choose what I like best (sometimes
> modified by price). Sometimes my choices are practically unknown by most
> people. Directory Opus is an example.
>
>

You make a good point. I want to be like everyone else
is a big problem. Put in a database at a company years
ago, but it was not M$O Access, so the secretaries
threw a fit. "I can go down the street and get a better
job is I don't know M$O!" They wanted their current
employer to train them for their next jobs. (In that
case they should have learned it on their own.)

On 9/21/21 3:09 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 23.57, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 11:04 AM, philo wrote:
>>> On 9/20/21 4:19 AM, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>>>> In article <cmegkgteg5f95vbl5u2pg901lna5r00r6j@4ax.com>,
>>>> Ralph Fox  <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> The cat is already out of the bag.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://news.aioe.org/tools/groupslist/index.php?id=groupslist&group=alt.comp.os.windows-11&exclude=3>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While we're at it...
>>>>
>>>> Let's get ahead of the curve.  Let's create a Windows 12 group right
>>>> now.
>>>>
>>>> And Windows 13.  And Windows 14.  And...
>>>>
>>>> BTW, saw a TV add for Windows 11 a day or so ago.  The virus is
>>>> spreading...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. Just made my first post there
>>
>> Still not on Infernal November
>
> I just found it on individual.net, after telling Thunderbird to refresh
> groups.
>

Infernal November is a bunch of attitude cases. I put
up with them becasue it usually works. Usually.

I think they are in the dictionary as an example of
the word "Jerks"

On 22/09/2021 00.24, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>> it for me.
>>>
>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>
>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>
>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>> price for M$O.
>>
>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>>
>> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
>> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>>
>>
>
> You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
> or need division tabs.

Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P

Actually, I print envelopes, no problem. Figure out how your printer
works, create a template, take notes, and do it always the same way.

I heard of people having problems.

Tables? Like excel? Or in Write? I use them.

What are "division tabs"?

> I too have used LO since its inception.  Hated Open Office.
> LO does not fix its bugs anymore, unless you put them
> on your payroll.  I hate being held hostage.  I am
> constantly pissed at them.
>

I don't have that itch.

> The one thing I have noticed with customers is that
> they refuse to learn anything new.  I try to accommodate
> them as far a I can go, but there is a tipping point ...

I know.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22/09/2021 00.20, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>> it for me.
>>>
>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>
>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>
>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>> price for M$O.
>>
>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>
>
>
> Using what others use is the most important criterion for many (most?)
> people. Popularity is very important. As an example, many people will
> disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned, despite its popularity,
> Microsoft Word is greatly inferior to WordPerfect.

Could be. I loved 5.1.

But in the 90's, the Windows versions of WP were horrible compared to
the 5.1 text veteran, so that much to my disgust, I had to abandon WP.
My colleagues wanted a graphical editor.

> I pay no attention to popularity. I choose what I like best (sometimes
> modified by price). Sometimes my choices are practically unknown by most
> people. Directory Opus is an example.

Me, I prefer software that uses open formats. The actual software is
irrelevant, but I want the files to be in an open format. And the other
criteria is that I do not pay if I can get it gratis... unless I have a
boss that pays. :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/2021 3:18 PM, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 3:07 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 2:50 PM, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>> it for me.
>>>
>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>
>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>
>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>> price for M$O.
>>
>>
>> I have a copy of Microsoft Office 2016, which I got for free (legally,
>> but I won't go into how). As I said, the only thing I use it for is
>> Excel and I don't use that much.
>>
>> I think that both Open Office and Free Office are still installed here,
>> but since I never use either, I'm not sure. I know they were once
>> installed because I wanted to see what they were like.
>>
>> I use WordPerfect (which I also got for free legally) for word
>> processing and Thunderbird for e-mail, both of which I prefer to any
>> alternatives. Except for Excel, it's rare that I have a need for
>> anything else in an Office suite.
>>
>> Occasionally, I need to look a .doc or .docx file, but WordPerfect
>> handles them fine, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> Word Perfect is a great program.

Yes.

> .doc and .docx support
> was vastly improved after M$ bought Word Perfect.

??? Microsoft never bought WordPerfect. WordPerfect is owned by Corel.

--
Ken

On 9/21/21 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Who prints envelopes today?:-D :-P
>
> Actually, I print envelopes, no problem. Figure out how your printer
> works, create a template, take notes, and do it always the same way.

LO is a nightmare for me and my Okidata B4350 printer.
Nothing lines up properly

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42327
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42326

In Word Pro it is just simple.

>
> I heard of people having problems.
>
> Tables? Like excel? Or in Write? I use them.

Tables in writer:

Deleting columns in a table can delete several columns if any cells in
that column are merged with other cells
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46733#c10

>
> What are "division tabs"?

Tabbed UI (Writer): Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33173#c45

check the attachments for screen shots. Also note
the date I posted it

LO:

WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
FIX. Put us on your payroll!

On 9/21/21 4:37 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> .doc and .docx support
>> was vastly improved after M$ bought Word Perfect.
>
>
>
> ??? Microsoft never bought WordPerfect. WordPerfect is owned by Corel.

I should have been more precise with my wording. M$ bought a lot of
Corel's stock:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/commentary-why-did-microsoft-really-buy-into-corel/

On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 00.20, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>
>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>> it for me.
>>>>
>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>
>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>> price for M$O.
>>>
>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Using what others use is the most important criterion for many (most?)
>> people. Popularity is very important. As an example, many people will
>> disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned, despite its popularity,
>> Microsoft Word is greatly inferior to WordPerfect.
>
> Could be. I loved 5.1.

It's improved over the years. But the last few version are almost
identical to each other. I'm running X7, which is now three versions
old, and I have no inclination to pay from an upgrade to the current
version. I would never notice a difference.

> But in the 90's, the Windows versions of WP were horrible compared to
> the 5.1 text veteran, so that much to my disgust, I had to abandon WP.
> My colleagues wanted a graphical editor.

Starting with WordPerfect 7.0 (1996), all release have been fine, as
far as I'm concerned.

>> I pay no attention to popularity. I choose what I like best (sometimes
>> modified by price). Sometimes my choices are practically unknown by most
>> people. Directory Opus is an example.
>
> Me, I prefer software that uses open formats. The actual software is
> irrelevant, but I want the files to be in an open format. And the other
> criteria is that I do not pay if I can get it gratis... unless I have a
> boss that pays. :-p
>
>

--
Ken

On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 00.24, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>
>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>> it for me.
>>>>
>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>
>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>> price for M$O.
>>>
>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.
>>>
>>> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
>>> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
>> or need division tabs.
>
> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P

I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.

--
Ken

On 9/21/2021 4:43 PM, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 4:37 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> .doc and .docx support
>>> was vastly improved after M$ bought Word Perfect.
>>
>>
>>
>> ??? Microsoft never bought WordPerfect. WordPerfect is owned by Corel.
>
> I should have been more precise with my wording. M$ bought a lot of
> Corel's stock:
>
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/commentary-why-did-microsoft-really-buy-into-corel/

OK.

--
Ken

On 9/21/21 4:50 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>
>
> I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
> anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.

By hand is a pain in the butt. All my invoices go out
postal mail. I would email them, but I don't get paid
when I do. Postal service 999.99% of the time, I
get paid. Email: I go in the junk file as a scam
and I have to call after 30 days and ask them why
they are late. And I hae to resend with them on the
phone AAAAA HHHH !!!!

I have my data base set up to print their invoice out
from the databases address book. Very automated.
Various government agencies do not send out mailing
envelops anymore and my water bill too. I
have envelopes setup in Word Pro. Very slick.

On 22/09/2021 01.41, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> Who prints envelopes today?:-D  :-P
>>
>> Actually, I print envelopes, no problem. Figure out how your printer
>> works, create a template, take notes, and do it always the same way.
>
> LO is a nightmare for me and my Okidata B4350 printer.
>  Nothing lines up properly
>
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42327
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42326

Reporting bugzillas is a skill that takes learning ;-)

>
> In Word Pro it is just simple.

But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
"Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
pro".

As a matter of fact, I know about this problem with the envelope
orientation because other people have it, and I myself encountered it,
and I found how to solve it for me. And yes, it is a CUPS problem. Or an
interaction between LO and CUPS.

I can only say I get my envelopes done as I want them. I have an HP
laser printer. However, as they are more wear for my printer, I prefer
to use windowed envelopes and print the address in the first page of the
letter, which you see through the transparent window of the envelope.

For the the from address I use sticky labels, maybe I print on the
envelope. If I had to send a significant number, I would use preprinted
envelopes.

>
>>
>> I heard of people having problems.
>>
>> Tables? Like excel? Or in Write? I use them.
>
> Tables in writer:
>
> Deleting columns in a table can delete several columns if any cells in
> that column are merged with other cells
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46733#c10

I don't remember if I tried to do this in Writer. Complex tables I
create in Calc, then use one of the insert or copy variants.

>
>
>>
>> What are "division tabs"?
>
> Tabbed UI (Writer): Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33173#c45
>

Ok, I see.

> check the attachments for screen shots.  Also note
> the date I posted it

Yeah, but they have no obligation to implement it if they don't like it,
no mater how much you want it.

Me, never having used them, I don't miss them.

(note that if I have to write a book, I use LyX; I would even consider
to learn Latex. I would not ever use LO, WP, or MO).

(Note 2: There are powerful latex implementations in Windows, I have
seen them in use, and they are really good and interesting)

>
>
> LO:
>
> WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
> FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
> FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T FIX WON'T
> FIX.  Put us on your payroll!

You need to learn the bugzilla skillset. :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
> "Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
> created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
> pro".

Uuuhhhhh ... Wine is Linux. I am running Word Pro on Wine.

On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> You need to learn the bugzilla skillset.:-P

After post around a 1000 of them over 26 years of
doing this, I have the hang of it

One of the things you have to learn is who is
responsive and who is not. Fedora is EXTREMELY
responsive. Wine, Libre Office, Xfce are not.

On 9/21/2021 7:50 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 00.24, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 3:06 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
>>>>> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>>>>>> its being free is a big advantage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
>>>>> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
>>>>> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
>>>>> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
>>>>> it for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
>>>>> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
>>>>> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
>>>>> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
>>>>> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
>>>>> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
>>>>> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
>>>>> price for M$O.
>>>>
>>>> I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
>>>> works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people
>>>> will.
>>>> I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
>>>> different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others
>>>> use.
>>>>
>>>> I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
>>>> explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You must not use tables a lot or print envelopes
>>> or need division tabs.
>>
>> Who prints envelopes today? :-D :-P
>
>
> I don't. It's been many years since I printed one. I almost never send
> anything by mail, and when I do, I hand-write the envelope.
>
>
People who send Christmas cards.

T wrote:

> Still not on Infernal November

I've requested it there (after sending a properly formatted control message for
it) no doubt Ray'll get round to it, it's also on individual.net now.

RabidHussar wrote:

> No reason to chuck anything out. Like everyone else has pointed out, they plan
> on supporting 2025 which gives your hardware more than enough time to be useful
> before you finally decide to move on.

Indeed this machine will likely stay on Win10, my work laptop can go to Win11

> If you don't want to part with it then,
> Linux will resurrect it without issue. It's already quite cool but by then, it
> will probably be an absolutely stellar alternative to Windows 10 or 11.

I'm quite happy with Linux as my 'server' O/S, the last time I tried linux for
my daily desktop O/S I did eventually go back to windows, it has improved since
then, but the issue (commercial software with no Linux flavour) still exists and
it only takes a single app to be unavailable to kill it for me ...

On 22/09/2021 03.53, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> You need to learn the bugzilla skillset.:-P
>
> After post around a 1000 of them over 26 years of
> doing this, I have the hang of it

But your language antagonizes them.

> One of the things you have to learn is who is
> responsive and who is not.  Fedora is EXTREMELY
> responsive.  Wine, Libre Office, Xfce are not.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22/09/2021 03.50, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 6:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> But you can not tell them that. The bug is reported for platform
>> "Linux", you can not mention "word pro" to them. If you had initially
>> created a bugzilla with "platform=windows", then you could mention "word
>> pro".
>
> Uuuhhhhh  ...  Wine is Linux.  I am running Word Pro on Wine.

Barely admissible :-P

It is a completely different tooling, they can not compare why something
works here and not there.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

T wrote:

> Still not on Infernal November

It is now ...