On 9/21/2021 11:42 AM, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <si9u66$fud$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> Kenny McCormack wrote:
>>> In article <cmegkgteg5f95vbl5u2pg901lna5r00r6j@4ax.com>,
>>> Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> The cat is already out of the bag.
>>>>
>>>>
>> <https://news.aioe.org/tools/groupslist/index.php?id=groupslist&group=alt.comp.os.windows-11&exclude=3>
>>>
>>> While we're at it...
>>>
>>> Let's get ahead of the curve. Let's create a Windows 12 group right now.
>>>
>>> And Windows 13. And Windows 14. And...
>>>
>>> BTW, saw a TV add for Windows 11 a day or so ago. The virus is spreading...
>>>
>>
>> Windows 11 is absolutely the last OS they're doing.
>>
>> There won't be sufficient userbase left, to do another.
>>
>> Paul
>
> I get what you are saying. That, outside of corporate, the userbase for
> these new versions of Windows is almost entirely new users - people who've
> are new to Windows. People who are already using Windows will stick with
> what works.
>
> I've noticed this a lot - the biggest backers of Windows 10 are people
> who've never used Windows before. They (and only they) think it is just
> peachy.
>
I have been using Windows since I switched from IBM OS/2. That switch
was difficult because at the time IBM OS/2 was far superior to the then
current version of Windows. I had to downgrade and go to a Windows as
OS/2 died. I went through Windows 98, Windows XP, Windows 8 and now
Windows 10. So I am not what you would consider a NEW user.

I use Windows 10 because nearly any program I decide to use will have a
Windows version, and I like its IBM OS/2 like user interface. I would
not consider a different OS.

Apple is very proprietary and all programs similar to a Windows program
are significantly more expensive. The hardware has always been more
expensive than hardware that runs Windows.

As for Linux variants, they are all niche OS's. And I would rather
spend my time using the computer, rather than learning about and finding
programs that will run in the OS. It is like when I was young, if you
could afford it, you drove a Cadillac or Buick, and bragged about it.
If you could not, you became a Ford or Chevy fan, and would not
consider changing to the other brand or to Chrysler.

On 21/09/2021 16.28, RabidHussar wrote:
> On 2021-09-21 4:40 a.m., Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 20/09/2021 14.19, RabidHussar wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-20 1:05 a.m., T wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I have seen some chatter about creating a new W11
>>>> news group.
>>>>
>>>> I personally would rather it just be merged with
>>>> this group.
>>>
>>> Agreed, there aren't enough significant differences for it to be treated
>>> as a separate release. It's clearly a continuation of the previous
>>> release in the same way that MacOS 10.11 is a continuation of 10.10.
>>
>> There are significant differences for me, as none of my hardware will
>> run W11.
>>
>> Maybe my desktop using vmware player if it can emulate a TPM.
>>
>> So the point for me is for how long W10 will receives updates, specially
>> security updates, and whether the software I use that demands Windows
>> will run on 10.
>
> You're good at least until 2025, either way. After that - and let's be
> honest here - your hardware will probably be very outdated anyway. From
> what I can gather, Windows 11 will be available to any machine released
> after 2018 and yours will likely be at least eight years-old at that
> point if it doesn't support what Windows 11 requires.

My hardware is already outdated :-D

This laptop I use now came with Windows 7 in 2009 or 2010. Two cores and
4 gigs of ram. I installed Linux dual boot on it. Windows side
eventually updated to W10. Changed disk to SSD. I'm running it with
Linux this instant: Thunderbird is bloated, Firefox is bloated (I have
dozens of tabs opened), Libre Office on top; so much that it is using 3
gigabytes of swap. It is running slow. It is too heavy a load for this
ancient laptop. But I don't enjoy the prospect of spending money on a
new one. It runs fast when I reduce FF to six tabs or less and restart Th.

My other laptop is much more modern (summer 2018), came with W10, but it
is also 4 GB and two cores. Slow as molasses, but small and lightweight
for travel.

Not my desktop machine, that is powerful. 32GB of ram, a Ryzen 5 with
12? cores. Thinking of improving to 64GB. The previous desktop lived for
more than 10 years with 8 GB of ram and four cores. I expect this
desktop to live 10 years more at least. Runs Linux, and two virtual
machines with Windows 10 when required (one vmware player, the other in
virtualbox IIRC).

No TPM module in any machine.

Desktops I build, so no Windows there (unless you count an old one that
came with W-Me). Laptops I buy, so they usually come with Windows.

I suppose that on 2025 I will have to seriously consider a new laptop.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 21/09/2021 19.11, knuttle wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 11:42 AM, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>> In article <si9u66$fud$1@dont-email.me>, Paul  <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> Kenny McCormack wrote:
>>>> In article <cmegkgteg5f95vbl5u2pg901lna5r00r6j@4ax.com>,
>>>> Ralph Fox  <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> The cat is already out of the bag.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <https://news.aioe.org/tools/groupslist/index.php?id=groupslist&group=alt.comp.os.windows-11&exclude=3>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> While we're at it...
>>>>
>>>> Let's get ahead of the curve.  Let's create a Windows 12 group right
>>>> now.
>>>>
>>>> And Windows 13.  And Windows 14.  And...
>>>>
>>>> BTW, saw a TV add for Windows 11 a day or so ago.  The virus is
>>>> spreading...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Windows 11 is absolutely the last OS they're doing.
>>>
>>> There won't be sufficient userbase left, to do another.
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>
>> I get what you are saying.  That, outside of corporate, the userbase for
>> these new versions of Windows is almost entirely new users - people
>> who've
>> are new to Windows.  People who are already using Windows will stick with
>> what works.
>>
>> I've noticed this a lot - the biggest backers of Windows 10 are people
>> who've never used Windows before.  They (and only they) think it is just
>> peachy.
>>
> I have been using Windows since I switched from IBM OS/2.   That switch
> was difficult because at the time IBM OS/2 was far superior to the then
> current version of Windows.   I had to downgrade and go to a Windows as
> OS/2 died.   I went through Windows 98, Windows XP, Windows 8 and now
> Windows 10.   So I am not what you would consider a NEW user.
>
> I use Windows 10 because nearly any program I decide to use will have a
> Windows version, and I like its IBM OS/2 like user interface.   I would
> not consider a different OS.
>
> Apple is very proprietary and all programs similar to a Windows program
> are significantly more expensive.   The hardware has always been more
> expensive than hardware that runs Windows.
>
>
> As for Linux variants,  they are all niche OS's.  And I would rather
> spend my time using the computer, rather than learning about and finding
> programs that will run in the OS.  It is like when I was young, if you
> could afford it, you drove a Cadillac or Buick, and bragged about it. If
> you could not, you  became a Ford or Chevy fan, and would not consider
> changing to the other brand or to Chrysler.

There is a learning curve to Linux. It has many differences. As what you
know is Windows, Linux is difficult for you. However, if you'd have used
Linux at school, the reverse would happen, and Windows would be
difficult for you - it is for me.

The main reason that Linux enchanted me, back in 1998, was that it had
(has) a very powerful text shell that could do the things I wanted the
MsDOS shell to do, and they never implemented.

Things like multitasking in text mode, multiuser, true shell scripting
language... I had wanted this in MsDOS for many years and they never
wrote :-/

Others started to do it. Was it Digital, perhaps, Dos-plus? The Amstrad
PC had it. Yes, Dos Plus. But died in the road.

On the cons, the Linux text mode did not get the very nice type of
software that MsDOS had (even without using graphics). I know that many
programmers consider the editors vi or emacs wonderful, but I think
their interfaces are terrible - I loved the Word Star interface and
still do.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> There are significant differences for me, as none of my hardware will
> run W11.
> Maybe my desktop using vmware player if it can emulate a TPM.

Haven't they said (in one of their continuous stream of Win11 clarifications)
that emulated TPMs won't be allowed by the final release?

On 9/20/21 4:19 AM, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <cmegkgteg5f95vbl5u2pg901lna5r00r6j@4ax.com>,
> Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
> ...
>> The cat is already out of the bag.
>>
>> <https://news.aioe.org/tools/groupslist/index.php?id=groupslist&group=alt.comp.os.windows-11&exclude=3>
>
> While we're at it...
>
> Let's get ahead of the curve. Let's create a Windows 12 group right now.
>
> And Windows 13. And Windows 14. And...
>
> BTW, saw a TV add for Windows 11 a day or so ago. The virus is spreading...
>

Thanks. Just made my first post there

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> There is a learning curve to Linux. It has many differences.

I have a Unix background, and there are lots of
things that cause hair loss in Linux.

I refuse to believe the "grandma theory", that everyone
who ever had a grandma, you installed Linux on her PC,
ran out of her house as fast as you could, and from
then on, "grandma never calls me".

Well of course not - her phone doesn't work since
you buggered with that too :-)

I believe if someone were to run a Linux OS from the
2.x kernel era, the simplicity of it might shine through.
But like Windows, these products just get worse with time.

An example is Snaps.

How do you debug a Snap. Does anyone really know ?

I tried. And I could not do a fucking thing with them.
Not one thing.

And this is a harbinger of the future. Containerization
is a part of Windows 11. Containerization is also a
part of Linux. Both environments will have un-debuggable
aspects. I won't be able to lend support on these, when
the inevitable problems show up.

So really, if Grandma can debug the Windows 11 container,
Grandma can debug Snaps on Ubuntu. La même chose.

We are approaching an era where users won't be able to help
themselves, or each other.

Paul

Andy Burns wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> There are significant differences for me, as none of my hardware will
>> run W11.
>> Maybe my desktop using vmware player if it can emulate a TPM.
>
> Haven't they said (in one of their continuous stream of Win11
> clarifications) that emulated TPMs won't be allowed by the final release?

There's a new checker that was released.

Don't expect miracles when it comes to transparency.

https://download.microsoft.com/download/1/5/e/15eb8516-6a35-4c70-8897-6cb4b5b4efd6/3.0/x64/WindowsPCHealthCheckSetup.msi

( https://aka.ms/GetPCHealthCheckApp )

Runs on Win10 only.

Paul

Paul wrote:

> There's a new checker that was released.
> Don't expect miracles when it comes to transparency.
> https://download.microsoft.com/download/1/5/e/15eb8516-6a35-4c70-8897-6cb4b5b4efd6/3.0/x64/WindowsPCHealthCheckSetup.msi

Yeah, this machine is fine as far as the TPM/UEFI/secureBoot requirements are
concerned obviously manufacturers stick with mobile CPUs longer than desktop,
it's a 2018 design using an i5-7200U ... am I going to chuck it out to allow
using Win11? Am I bollocks ...

On 9/21/2021 4:44 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 11:43:57, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>> There may be more types I have forgotten. What I have not seen, but may
>> exist, are devs working for a software they sell. Thus, migrating
>> Windows software doesn't happen as much.
>>
>> Blatant example: Acrobat. There is no current version of acrobat reader,
>> they ceased to produce it.
>>
>>
> I didn't know that; interesting.
>
> Was there, therefore, a final version of Acrobat which did _not_ "'phone
> home" from time to time to see if there is a more up-to-date version -
> if so, what is its version number, so I can go look for it?
>
> The version I have - which seems to be "Continuous Release | Version
> 2019.010.20064" [though says "Copyright (C) 1984-2018", not 2019] -
> _does_ seem to do so; I've (I think) stopped it actually doing so, by
> playing with settings in it, stopping services (which seem to have been
> restarted when I look and so on, and (I think) finally putting something
> in my hosts file, but when I open a .pdf file, after a few seconds it
> still becomes unresponsive for a while (few tens of seconds at a guess),
> so I assume it's doing so (or trying to).
>
> (Or does anyone know what's causing that pause and how to stop it, if
> checking for updates _isn't_ what it's doing?)
>
> I know there are other readers, such as FoxIt - but recent versions of
> those are as bloated as Acrobat (which, apart from the irritating pause
> described above, works well enough and fast enough for me). I could use
> an older version (of Acrobat, FoxIt, or another), I suppose - there's
> always the concern that some recent .pdf won't render properly, though.
> When I _was_ using something old (a FoxIt I think), I never _was_ aware
> of that happening, though there's always the concern that some recent
> feature might _invisibly_ not work.
>

I am still using Adobe Reader 11.0.23.22. I really did not like the
user interface of later versions. The interface with Adobe's cloud was
definitely another negative since I avoid cloud systems.

--
David E. Ross
"A Message to Those Who Are Not Vaccinated"
See my <http://www.rossde.com/index#vaccine>.

On 9/21/2021 9:18 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
> On 2021-09-21 10:56 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 9/21/2021 4:44 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>
>>> I know there are other readers, such as FoxIt - but recent versions of
>>> those are as bloated as Acrobat (which, apart from the irritating pause
>>> described above, works well enough and fast enough for me). I could use
>>> an older version (of Acrobat, FoxIt, or another), I suppose - there's
>>> always the concern that some recent .pdf won't render properly, though.
>>> When I _was_ using something old (a FoxIt I think), I never _was_ aware
>>> of that happening, though there's always the concern that some recent
>>> feature might _invisibly_ not work.
>>
>>
>>
>> Foxit is bloated? Not as far as I'm concerned. I'm not aware of
>> bloating or any other problems with it. I prefer it to Acrobat, and
>> that's what I always use.
>>
>>
> Thanks for reminding me of Foxit's existence. I was relying on Microsoft
> Edge to open up my PDF files which is just uncivilized.

It don't rely on Edge for anything. As far as I'm concerned, it's the
worst of all browsers and I never use it.

> Proud LibreOffice <http://www.libreoffice.org> & Thunderbird
> <http://www.thunderbird.net> donor

Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
its being free is a big advantage.

I use Excel a little, but not very much. Other than that, I don't use
anything in Microsoft Office, nor in any of its clones. I greatly prefer
WordPerfect to Word and Thunderbird to Outlook.

--
Ken

On 21/09/2021 20.37, Paul wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> There is a learning curve to Linux. It has many differences.
>
> I have a Unix background, and there are lots of
> things that cause hair loss in Linux.
>
> I refuse to believe the "grandma theory", that everyone
> who ever had a grandma, you installed Linux on her PC,
> ran out of her house as fast as you could, and from
> then on, "grandma never calls me".
>
> Well of course not - her phone doesn't work since
> you buggered with that too :-)

I know people that actually do this :-)

Each one living in a different continent, he goes to visit once a year
and does maintenance. The rest of the year, remote maintenance if needed.

I think he mentioned the only breakage was once when the ISP replaced
the router with another one with default configuration, so that needed
ports were closed and IPs unreported and unknown (dyndns or equivalent).

> I believe if someone were to run a Linux OS from the
> 2.x kernel era, the simplicity of it might shine through.
> But like Windows, these products just get worse with time.
>
> An example is Snaps.
>
> How do you debug a Snap. Does anyone really know ?

I have no idea what it is
>
> I tried. And I could not do a fucking thing with them.
> Not one thing.
>
> And this is a harbinger of the future. Containerization
> is a part of Windows 11. Containerization is also a
> part of Linux. Both environments will have un-debuggable
> aspects. I won't be able to lend support on these, when
> the inevitable problems show up.
>
> So really, if Grandma can debug the Windows 11 container,
> Grandma can debug Snaps on Ubuntu. La même chose.
>
> We are approaching an era where users won't be able to help
> themselves, or each other.
>
>    Paul

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 21/09/2021 19.54, Andy Burns wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> There are significant differences for me, as none of my hardware will
>> run W11.
>> Maybe my desktop using vmware player if it can emulate a TPM.
>
> Haven't they said (in one of their continuous stream of Win11
> clarifications) that emulated TPMs won't be allowed by the final release?

Dunno, sucks. :-(

I will test the verification software they provide, when I get there.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 7:32 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
> The tax software is probably useful considering how complicated it can
> be to sort things out at that level but few realized that these things
> were eventually going to become web applications which rendered the
> operating system choice irrelevant.

That would make it agnostic. And creepy as all hell

On 21/09/2021 22.51, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 7:32 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
>> The tax software is probably useful considering how complicated it can
>> be to sort things out at that level but few realized that these things
>> were eventually going to become web applications which rendered the
>> operating system choice irrelevant.
>
> That would make it agnostic.  And creepy as all hell

Well, it is what we have in Spain ;-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 7:23 AM, FACE wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:44:05 +0100, in alt.windows7.general, "J. P. Gilliver
> (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>, wrote
> ,,,
>> I know there are other readers, such as FoxIt - but recent versions of
>> those are as bloated as Acrobat (which, apart from the irritating pause
>> described above, works well enough and fast enough for me). I could use
>> an older version (of Acrobat, FoxIt, or another),
> ...
>
> I could not agree with you MORE.
> I started using FOXIT when it was a 2mb total installation file(circa 2008).
> Now, it is more bloated than Acrobat was then.
>

Not only is it bloated, it is full of spyware. I stopped
using it on my and all my customer's machines about
a year ago.

On 21/09/2021 23.19, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 7:23 AM, FACE wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:44:05 +0100,  in alt.windows7.general,  "J. P.
>> Gilliver
>> (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>, wrote
>> ,,,
>>> I know there are other readers, such as FoxIt - but recent versions of
>>> those are as bloated as Acrobat (which, apart from the irritating pause
>>> described above, works well enough and fast enough for me). I could use
>>> an older version (of Acrobat, FoxIt, or another),
>> ...
>>
>> I could not agree with you MORE.
>> I started using FOXIT when it was a 2mb total installation file(circa
>> 2008).
>> Now, it is more bloated than Acrobat was then.
>>
>
> Not only is it bloated, it is full of spyware.  I stopped
> using it on my and all my customer's machines about
> a year ago.

They said they had stopped doing that. At least in the Linux version, I
don't know in the Windows version (on Windows, I use acrobat).

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/21 1:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 22.51, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 7:32 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
>>> The tax software is probably useful considering how complicated it can
>>> be to sort things out at that level but few realized that these things
>>> were eventually going to become web applications which rendered the
>>> operating system choice irrelevant.
>>
>> That would make it agnostic.  And creepy as all hell
>
> Well, it is what we have in Spain ;-)
>

Does it rain in the plain? (A bad reference to a
Broadway play.)

You give private data on line, IT WILL BE HARVESTED.
The temptation is too great, despite the laws and
what the say. Google has done this to us.

I use GNU Cash. Hard a hell to figure out, but once you
get there, it is a dream. Small businesses CAN NOT
use Gnu Cash as it does not do payroll or inventory.
So back to Windows. And no accounting firm will
take a Gnu Cash file. They tell you to go home
and get Quick Books. Small businesses will also
not pay for a smart enough employee to figure out
Gnu Cash.

There is a Quick Books for Apple too, but it major
sucks. Accounting firms tell folks with Apple
Quickbooks files to go home, buy a windows machine
and install Quick books for Windows.

I use LibreOffice and Free Office. LibreOffice is a
damned nightmare. ZERO of my customer will use it.
They pretty much cuss it.

It has to do with the Open Source economic model, where
you give away the software for free and charge for
maintenance. If you want something fixed, you have to
put their developers on your payroll. Wine is the same
way, although better since Wine Staging. I have
some bugs open in LibreOffice for 8 years or so now.

With LibreOffice, they will give you a free car with
one of its wheels missing. Then each new update, they
will give you a beautiful new stereo and visor with a
pretty mirror and a lot of bloated crap you will never
use, but refuse to fix the missing wheel, unless you
put them on the payroll. ZERO individuals and ZERO
small business can afford that. It is a hostage
situation.

Heads up: the newest version of Quickbooks shares
your payroll with credit companies. It is opt out,
not opt in. Geez, you don't even have to be on line
anymore to get harvested.

Master PDF Editors free edition will do fill in forms
for you. Some Dynamic XFA forms too. The paid
version, you can create fill in forms. One of the
things I do for my customers is create fill in forms
for them.

I had a customer years ago that air gaped
his quickbooks. Zero networking of any kind. Pissed
his bookkeeper off to no end. Chuckle.

On 9/21/21 2:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 21/09/2021 23.19, T wrote:
>> On 9/21/21 7:23 AM, FACE wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:44:05 +0100,  in alt.windows7.general,  "J. P.
>>> Gilliver
>>> (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>, wrote
>>> ,,,
>>>> I know there are other readers, such as FoxIt - but recent versions of
>>>> those are as bloated as Acrobat (which, apart from the irritating pause
>>>> described above, works well enough and fast enough for me). I could use
>>>> an older version (of Acrobat, FoxIt, or another),
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I could not agree with you MORE.
>>> I started using FOXIT when it was a 2mb total installation file(circa
>>> 2008).
>>> Now, it is more bloated than Acrobat was then.
>>>
>>
>> Not only is it bloated, it is full of spyware.  I stopped
>> using it on my and all my customer's machines about
>> a year ago.
>
> They said they had stopped doing that. At least in the Linux version, I
> don't know in the Windows version (on Windows, I use acrobat).
>

With all the various versions of W10 out there, my Windows
customers have had all kinds of issues with Acrobat.
Print black blocks across everything and on and on and
so forth. I switch them to the free version of Master
PDF Editor, and it fixed all their issues. Acrobat
is especially bad at government PDF forms.

I am a FREQUENT bug reported to Master PDF Editor too.
And -- make sure you are sitting down -- they ACTUALLY
FIX THINGS!

On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
> its being free is a big advantage.

Hi Ken,

I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
(LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
in tears and buy M$O from me. At least they don't
argue with me over the price! SO the is a silver lining in
it for me.

Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
keystroke wise. But mostly it is the endless, stupid
bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.

As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
far better and a ton less buggy. And they are
responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.

I personally use LO and FO I could jump thorough
flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
price for M$O.

-T

On 9/21/21 6:31 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I haven't tried. I don't have a TPM module in any of my machines.

Install qemu-kvm on your Linux machine. Then create
a virtual machne for W11. It has a TPM module.
At the end of installation, do a customer confuration
and add UEFI adn Secure Boot

On 9/21/21 11:04 AM, philo wrote:
> On 9/20/21 4:19 AM, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>> In article <cmegkgteg5f95vbl5u2pg901lna5r00r6j@4ax.com>,
>> Ralph Fox  <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
>> ...
>>> The cat is already out of the bag.
>>>
>>> <https://news.aioe.org/tools/groupslist/index.php?id=groupslist&group=alt.comp.os.windows-11&exclude=3>
>>>
>>
>> While we're at it...
>>
>> Let's get ahead of the curve.  Let's create a Windows 12 group right now.
>>
>> And Windows 13.  And Windows 14.  And...
>>
>> BTW, saw a TV add for Windows 11 a day or so ago.  The virus is
>> spreading...
>>
>
>
>
> Thanks. Just made my first post there

Still not on Infernal November

On 21/09/2021 23.39, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 1:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 21/09/2021 22.51, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 7:32 AM, RabidHussar wrote:
>>>> The tax software is probably useful considering how complicated it can
>>>> be to sort things out at that level but few realized that these things
>>>> were eventually going to become web applications which rendered the
>>>> operating system choice irrelevant.
>>>
>>> That would make it agnostic.  And creepy as all hell
>>
>> Well, it is what we have in Spain ;-)
>>
>
> Does it rain in the plain?  (A bad reference to a
> Broadway play.)

I know. I did not know the first time I heard that reference from my
British aunt, and I took it literally: it does not rain mainly in the plain.

>
> You give private data on line, IT WILL BE HARVESTED.
> The temptation is too great, despite the laws and
> what the say.  Google has done this to us.

You are mistaken :-)

Basically the government here already knows, the forms are already
filled with the correct data and we basically only need to sign and pay
(the income tax).

The security on that "web site" is paranoid. I have not heard complains
about it.

>
> I use GNU Cash.  Hard a hell to figure out, but once you
> get there, it is a dream.  Small businesses CAN NOT
> use Gnu Cash as it does not do payroll or inventory.
> So back to Windows.  And no accounting firm will
> take a Gnu Cash file.  They tell you to go home
> and get Quick Books.  Small businesses will also
> not pay for a smart enough employee to figure out
> Gnu Cash.

There are business I know that do not use Quick, they stay Linux only,
and are successful :-p

Here they would likely use "Contaplus", of which I understand there are
Linux versions or equivalent.

>
> There is a Quick Books for Apple too, but it major
> sucks.  Accounting firms tell folks with Apple
> Quickbooks files to go home, buy a windows machine
> and install Quick books for Windows.
>
> I use LibreOffice and Free Office.  LibreOffice is a
> damned nightmare.  ZERO of my customer will use it.
> They pretty much cuss it.

I know many other customers that use it.

>
> It has to do with the Open Source economic model, where
> you give away the software for free and charge for
> maintenance.  If you want something fixed, you have to
> put their developers on your payroll.  Wine is the same
> way, although better since Wine Staging.  I have
> some bugs open in LibreOffice for 8 years or so now.
>
> With LibreOffice, they will give you a free car with
> one of its wheels missing.  Then each new update, they
> will give you a beautiful new stereo and visor with a
> pretty mirror and a lot of bloated crap you will never
> use, but refuse to fix the missing wheel, unless you
> put them on the payroll.  ZERO individuals and ZERO
> small business can afford that.  It is a hostage
> situation.
>
> Heads up: the newest version of Quickbooks shares
> your payroll with credit companies.  It is opt out,
> not opt in.  Geez, you don't even have to be on line
> anymore to get harvested.
>
> Master PDF Editors free edition will do fill in forms
> for you.  Some Dynamic XFA forms too.  The paid
> version, you can create fill in forms.  One of the
> things I do for my customers is create fill in forms
> for them.
>
> I had a customer years ago that air gaped
> his quickbooks.  Zero networking of any kind.  Pissed
> his bookkeeper off to no end.   Chuckle.

Well, Gnu cash will not phone home :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 21/09/2021 23.44, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 2:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 21/09/2021 23.19, T wrote:
>>> On 9/21/21 7:23 AM, FACE wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 12:44:05 +0100,  in alt.windows7.general,  "J. P.
>>>> Gilliver
>>>> (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>, wrote
>>>> ,,,
>>>>> I know there are other readers, such as FoxIt - but recent versions of
>>>>> those are as bloated as Acrobat (which, apart from the irritating
>>>>> pause
>>>>> described above, works well enough and fast enough for me). I could
>>>>> use
>>>>> an older version (of Acrobat, FoxIt, or another),
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> I could not agree with you MORE.
>>>> I started using FOXIT when it was a 2mb total installation file(circa
>>>> 2008).
>>>> Now, it is more bloated than Acrobat was then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not only is it bloated, it is full of spyware.  I stopped
>>> using it on my and all my customer's machines about
>>> a year ago.
>>
>> They said they had stopped doing that. At least in the Linux version, I
>> don't know in the Windows version (on Windows, I use acrobat).
>>
>
> With all the various versions of W10 out there, my Windows
> customers have had all kinds of issues with Acrobat.
> Print black blocks across everything and on and on and
> so forth.  I switch them to the free version of Master
> PDF Editor, and it fixed all their issues.  Acrobat
> is especially bad at government PDF forms.
>
> I am a FREQUENT bug reported to Master PDF Editor too.
> And -- make sure you are sitting down -- they ACTUALLY
> FIX THINGS!
>

Good to know :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/21/2021 2:50 PM, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>> its being free is a big advantage.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
> in tears and buy M$O from me. At least they don't
> argue with me over the price! SO the is a silver lining in
> it for me.
>
> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
> keystroke wise. But mostly it is the endless, stupid
> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>
> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
> far better and a ton less buggy. And they are
> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>
> I personally use LO and FO I could jump thorough
> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
> price for M$O.

I have a copy of Microsoft Office 2016, which I got for free (legally,
but I won't go into how). As I said, the only thing I use it for is
Excel and I don't use that much.

I think that both Open Office and Free Office are still installed here,
but since I never use either, I'm not sure. I know they were once
installed because I wanted to see what they were like.

I use WordPerfect (which I also got for free legally) for word
processing and Thunderbird for e-mail, both of which I prefer to any
alternatives. Except for Excel, it's rare that I have a need for
anything else in an Office suite.

Occasionally, I need to look a .doc or .docx file, but WordPerfect
handles them fine, as far as I'm concerned.

--
Ken

On 21/09/2021 23.50, T wrote:
> On 9/21/21 12:53 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> Always anyone who likes Microsoft Office also likes Libre Office, and
>> its being free is a big advantage.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> I have yet to get a single customer to adopt Libre Office
> (LO). They try for several weeks, then call me almost
> in tears and buy M$O from me.  At least they don't
> argue with me over the price!  SO the is a silver lining in
> it for me.
>
> Part of the issue it that it is not 100% identical to M$O
> keystroke wise.  But mostly it is the endless, stupid
> bugs LO won't fix as you can't afford to put them on your payroll.
>
> As far as the keystroke issue, Free Office (FO), is
> far better and a ton less buggy.  And they are
> responsive to fixing bugs, unlike LO.
>
> I personally use LO and FO  I could jump thorough
> flaming hoops with Wine and get M$O install on
> Linux, but I am not willing to pay the monopoly
> price for M$O.

I can only say that I have been using solely LO for 20 years, and it
works for me. I'm certainly not going to pay MO, but I know people will.
I know people that are thrown back by trivial difficulties like
different menus or options, and want MO because that is what others use.

I know also people that are unable to copy a file using the file
explorer if an icon or menu is on a different corner of the screen...

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.