Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 04:32 pm
>
> > > china does it better. my former company tried for almo
> > > st 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with
> > la
> > > for a decent price.
> >
> > It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
> > point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
> > much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.
> >
> >
>
> i'm not even sure that what we say about china is right anymore.
> it could just be propaganda.
>
> some companies here in the usa don't pay people enough. the other day i saw
>
> I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.
>
> personally i have seen it better and cheaper from china. american companies
> o not trust. china is just better at everything.
> everyone snoozed and losed.

The technology has gone up in the last 30 years. I have a friend always goes
the cheap route, and I assume it's because he's never tried or owned
something with premium quality and workamnship. Most big game hunters and
competition shooter spend as much on the optics and mounts as they do on thei
r rifle. He, on the other hand, would buy the cheapest no name scope and
mount he could find. Back in the late 90's a cheap scope base could be told
apart from a good one from a distance. The screws would have coarse threads
that looked like they were made on one of Eli Whitney's first lathes during
the 1800's. The metal would be cheap as well. Soft, allowing for stripped
threads and snapped off screws or bolts.

The more modern stuff is held to better specs, and so are the fasteners. The
metalurgy is still off. AL380 or 6061 versus 7075 aluminum. While you won't
notice the difference on a range queen firearm, you'll appreciate the quality
better on a hunt or situation where things get banged around and re expected
to keep their zero.

There is still a difference between the real low end and high end gear, but
there is also several items that fall somewhere in between with regards to
price and quality. China can produce good stuff if held accountable for it.
I know of a gear dealer that has optics and mounts built to order in China,
and if it doesn't meet his QA standards, he'll stop payment and turn away
shipments. Vendors pay attention when they don't get paid.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

> I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

Pretty much this.

China used to be the laughting stock of the world, selling cheap junk which was
good for barely anything. They aren't anymore.

So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to produce
merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point they
realized they could use that infrastructure and experience to produce it
themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in china,
and sends an European foreman to oversee the production of watches, you will
find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is
not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought
for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.

A contruction engineer I know used to warn us in the early 2010s. "Chinesse
construction steel is no longer total junk. They are starting to show up with
quality stuff."

--
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---
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DW>It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
>point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
>much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.

Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business and
then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan
that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
slave labour.

They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were quite
a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making football
helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the
mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper than
doing it in the USA.

Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a
factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on
foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut
down.

Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using fewer
workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stand
for that.

It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.
---
■ SLMR Rob ■ Help!... I'm sinking in QWKsand!
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> Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
> have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
> loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business
nd
> then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan
> that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

I agree that the US (and maybe Western in general) attitude and practices
are also a problem.

* SLMR 2.1a * Hold on! Doesn't NT mean NinTendo ?

---
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<Snip>

Ar> So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry
Ar> to produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at
Ar> some point they realized they could use that infrastructure and
Ar> experience to produce it themselves. If an European clock manufacturer
Ar> funds a clock factory in china, and sends an European foreman to
Ar> oversee the production of watches, you will find that factory produces
Ar> watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is not looking, using
Ar> European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought for them. It
Ar> happens in Morocco all the time too.

I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

Doesn't seem like good business, but apparently it was cheaper than
shipping goods to China for sale in the asian market.

.... ░▒▓█ Does the name Pavlov ring a bell? ░▒▓█

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Arelor to MRO on Sat Jan 28 2023 07:15 am

>
> So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to
> produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point

They learn from their mistakes;they copy their competitors and then they do better than their competitors. I've seen a tour of chinese come into a company. they wanted to run a product we had but they couldn't. Nobody knew who those people's positions are in their company, but i'm sure they were all high lvl engineers. They even had spy cameras and they took everything they needed before they were told no photos.

China is #1 in the steel industry and they have been for a while.
They are not stupid and they are in it to win it.

Almost every other country is slow and stupid.
---
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-=> Moondog wrote to Nightfox <=-

Mo> It's probably packed in nitrogen and shipped priority shipping or by
Mo> air. From there it is packed in airtight tins and sealed.

I'm a coffee afficionado (was going to say "snob", but I like all sort
of coffee, even Bad Coffee) and have been paying attention lately to
roasting dates.

I just bought a new espresso machine, so I'm buying fresh beans instead
of ground.

It's interesting seeing the variety of roasting dates on store-bought
coffees. Some of the coffee beans packed in nitrogen have pull dates a
year or two from now!

I'm spoiled. I have a handful of local roasters and I can get beans
roasted a couple of days ago.

.... UNPRISON YOUR THINK RHINO
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
� Synchronet � .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

> Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
> have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
> loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business
> and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not
> plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

A lot of american manufacturing companies live hand to mouth. Some even take out monthly loans and pay it back to handle overhead and payroll. That's not being successful. I was in a company that was stuck in the same old cycles for almost 100 years. They didn't give a shit about a year from now. They wanted to make as much money as they could THIS QUARTER. Then when shit went sideways they scrambled.

> Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
> the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> slave labour.

there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china.

>
> Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using
> fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would
> never stand for that.

unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to work states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont have to join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure people are held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be stuck in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

> It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

They adopted a winning mentality. And it was behind the backs of regular people. china took over many industries and we were oblivious to it.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to ROB MCCART on Sat Jan 28 2023 10:30 am

>
> I agree that the US (and maybe Western in general) attitude and practices
> are also a problem.

we couldn't get a company local to do what they consider small batches 6 times a year. we would pay for all the tooling. they all told us to fuck off. they would rather make no many than some money. once they were a vendor in our company they would be used for other departments as well. so we used china.

the american worth ethic is bullshit.

i went on craigslist and found a guy with a company for siding
"no job too big or too small"

I needed siding replaced here and there. The neighbor's chimney collapsed and hit the side of our house and damaged siding on the side of the house.

The job was too small! he also refused to open up a link from imgur
"I don't do that"
---
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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Sat Jan 28 2023 08:04 am

> I just bought a new espresso machine, so I'm buying fresh beans instead
> of ground.
>
> It's interesting seeing the variety of roasting dates on store-bought
> coffees. Some of the coffee beans packed in nitrogen have pull dates a
> year or two from now!
>
> I'm spoiled. I have a handful of local roasters and I can get beans
> roasted a couple of days ago.
>

it's all a work. you think you are being spoiled but you are paying more for something of equal or less quality.
---
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> I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
> helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
> the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
> basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
> competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not
get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would
not.

* SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

---
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> > Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
> > the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> > slave labour.

> there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china.

That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
as to how they treat non-Han peoples.

* SLMR 2.1a * Energize! said Picard....and this pink bunny appeared...

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

> -=> Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and a bowl
of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance.
And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll pay 2 grand for an
Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and assembled in Flungdung by a
girl who's supporting herself and her aged parents on 3 bucks an hour.
How I wish we COULD "Buy American". (sighhhh..)

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

> DW>It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
> >point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
> >much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.
>
> Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
> have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
> loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business a
> then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan
> that far in advance. They want immediate profits.
>
> Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
> the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> slave labour.
>
> They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were qui
> a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making footba
> helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the
> mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper th
> doing it in the USA.
>
> Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a
> factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on
> foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut
> down.
>
> Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using few
> workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stan
> for that.
>
> It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

The country also restricts travel from one province to another to regluate
jobs and commerce. This ia a way to keep farmers' families in farming, so
their kids won't leave in puruit of better manufacturing jobs.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Arelor on Sat Jan 28 2023 01:12 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Arelor to MRO on Sat Jan 28 2023 07:15 am
>
> >
> > So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to
> > produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at some po
>
> They learn from their mistakes;they copy their competitors and then they do
> are in their company, but i'm sure they were all high lvl engineers. They ev
>
> China is #1 in the steel industry and they have been for a while.
> They are not stupid and they are in it to win it.
>
> Almost every other country is slow and stupid.

My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went
through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and security
was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices on ho
w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the process.

There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines in
WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill press,
and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the guy a
nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The
Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he could've
sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he would say.
i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or
management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then come in
the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so tolerant.
That was back in the days you could quit one manufacturing job then have
another job the next day.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Rob Mccart on Sat Jan 28 2023 01:17 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am
>
> > Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, Chi
> > have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run a
> > loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of busines
> > and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do n
> > plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.
>
> A lot of american manufacturing companies live hand to mouth. Some even take
> They didn't give a shit about a year from now. They wanted to make as much
>
> > Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures sa
> > the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> > slave labour.
>
> there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china
>
> >
> > Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using
> > fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would
> > never stand for that.
>
> unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to
> ue to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be stuck in a job
>
> > It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.
>
> They adopted a winning mentality. And it was behind the backs of regular peo

The government has their hand in every sort of business. They're a silent
partner, and each level of government gets their take (above taxes.) I was
listening to NPR and they visited area where coal was being strip mined, and
several companies were building ski lodges and ski lifts because it was
better money than coal. The gov't would tke their money first, then the coal
miners couldn't afford to stay open.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:31 am

> That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
> at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
> as to how they treat non-Han peoples.
>

if china does not like a specific ethnic group, they pull no punches.

but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal experience, most of those people are just bad news.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Ted Long to Cougar428 on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:43 am

> Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and a bowl

I've seen americans work 12hr days for chump change.

> of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance.

it seems like we all are being watched by the govt now and they are planning on doing more.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 01:27 pm

> My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went
> through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and security
> was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices on
> ho w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the
> process.
>

that is so stupid that they allowed that.

> There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines in
> WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill press,
> and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the guy
> a nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The
> Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he
> could've sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he
> would say.
> i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or
> management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then come
> in the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so
> tolerant.

the japanese were ruthless people who starved and tortured their captives.
There was no love for them.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to COUGAR428 on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:29 am

> > I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
> > helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
> > the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
> > basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
> > competition. (if they needed it to begin with)
>
> Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
> rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not
> get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would
> not.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.
>
The US sent many of their efficiency experts over to Japan. The Japanese
were willing to listen and patient, unlike their US counterparts. Instead exp
ecting quick results, they made short term and long term goals. I think
that's more or less an Asian thing, since Korea i very similar in long trm
plans. I recall an episode of Computer Chronicles where there was a
representative from a company such as Samsung who was talking about the
future of LCD displays. Back in the 80's the screen array siz was limited,
so in order to make larger displays you would make it out of severasl smaller
displays. The sales guy was mentioning color displays were around the
corner, and large flat panel TV's weren't far behind. The other guest was fr
om a US company, and thought the trouble of coordinating an array of panels wa
s too forward thinking. Of course, the US guy was thinking about short term
issues rather than how things go faster if you invest in them.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:31 am

> > > Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures
> > > the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exact
> > > slave labour.
>
> > there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of chi
>
> That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
> at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
> as to how they treat non-Han peoples.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * Energize! said Picard....and this pink bunny appeared...
>
When the upper management from my father's company toured the foundry and the
plants around it, they noticed the apartments were shabby and over crowded.
Employees were packed into apartment complexes. 8 people were living in a
apartment suitable for 2 or 3 people.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jan 29 2023 08:01 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 01:27 pm
>
> > My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went
> > through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and secur
> > was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices
> > ho w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the
> > process.
> >
>
> that is so stupid that they allowed that.
>
>
> > There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines
> > WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill pre
> > and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the
> > a nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The
> > Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he
> > could've sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he
> > would say.
> > i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or
> > management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then com
> > in the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so
> > tolerant.
>
> the japanese were ruthless people who starved and tortured their captives.
> There was no love for them.

Yeah, they were arogant to allow people outside the company to film anything.
Anything the engineers saw they could easily reverse engineer.

Regarding troops, it was first assumed they born and raised in modern cities,
they shouldn't be that hard to fight. Problem was they had a head start on
jungle fightiing for several years, and as stated the life of a prisoner
meant nothing. Tex told me one time they got a batch of grenades where the
fuse was slower. They would allow the same cook off time before throwing,
then the enemy would grab them and throw them back. If they got lucky they
had enough time to toss them back again.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

> -=> Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
TL> Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and
TL> a bowl of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government
TL> surveillance. And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll
TL> pay 2 grand for an Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and
TL> assembled in Flungdung by a girl who's supporting herself and her aged
TL> parents on 3 bucks an hour. How I wish we COULD "Buy American".
TL> (sighhhh..)

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, can you tell me what you
really think?

(just kidding!)

I worked at a plastics plant where we made all the parts in the
factory. So I know there are products made in america. I just
wonder why business people don't see the promise of building chips
for cars in the US since we can't get them from China. (granted,
this is just an example, I don't know if those chips actually do
come from China).

If more US companies started building the items we are short of,
they could take advantage of opportunity.

JMO - Cougar

.... Pure drivel tends to drive away ordinary drivel.

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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MR>unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to
>k states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont have
>join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure people
>e held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be st
> in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

My first long term job, part time while in school working at a grocery store,
taught me all I needed to know about unions. They have a union similar in
strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was
spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a
custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much income as possible.
The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up
was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I
earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in 15 years, for breaking
company production records.. This earned me about 35% more money than others
in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircase
and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'..
I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.

Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
always other offers out there.
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■ SLMR Rob ■ What luck for rulers that men do not think. -Adolf Hitler
■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

> > That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
> > at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
> > as to how they treat non-Han peoples.

> if china does not like a specific ethnic group, they pull no punches.

In this case, it is also because they are Muslim and have not given up
their religion for the state.

> but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal
> perience, most of those people are just bad news.

Are the Hmong from China, or from SE Asia/Vietnam?

* SLMR 2.1a * True Multitasking = 3 PCs and a chair with wheels!

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