Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
>That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
>Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
>decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
>of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.

California has already _made_ such a decision. They're just waiting
on the US congress to make it possible.

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>
>Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
>would benefit.

IIRC, the railroads are the reason we have official timezones (and
a consistent national view of time) today.

On 08/01/2023 17:15, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>> Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
>> would benefit.
>
> IIRC, the railroads are the reason we have official timezones (and
> a consistent national view of time) today.

My understanding is it was the railways. Pre-railway every town in the
UK had its own time.

It must have been fun for seamen who used the difference between local
time and clock time to work out how far west they were.

Andy

On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>

The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.

[1] Along with other bad things.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 17:15:01 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>>
>>That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
>>Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
>>decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
>>of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>
>California has already _made_ such a decision. They're just waiting
>on the US congress to make it possible.

Someone will always g to school or work in the dark, or come hme in
the dark, regardeless of what is done with the clocks.

Its the US Naval Observatory i the US that decides.
--
Jim

On 2023-01-08, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>>Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
>>would benefit.
>
> IIRC, the railroads are the reason we have official timezones (and
> a consistent national view of time) today.

+

Canals didn't need them, just float along, open a barrel, fill up again
with canal water from the seven springs, and the best stout in Europe.
--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

On 2023-01-08, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
[...]
> I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
> countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
> countries. seems silly to me.
>
> Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
> countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
> explanations of DST, etc.
>

Nepal is UTC+05:45

On 8 Jan 2023 17:50:11 GMT, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>>
>> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
>> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
>> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
>> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>>
>
>The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>
>[1] Along with other bad things.

Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
eventually done away with.

No idea when it started up again. We were told in the 1950s that it
was due to not all farmers having electricity, and when the Rural
elctrification Project was done, it would be stopped.

My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.

The excuse to keep it going changes every few years.
--
Jim

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 18:32:51 GMT, johnson <root@example.net> wrote:
>On 2023-01-08, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>[...]
>> I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
>> countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
>> countries. seems silly to me.
>>
>> Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
>> countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
>> explanations of DST, etc.
>>
>
>Nepal is UTC+05:45

I noticed, on that page I linked to, that parts of Australia are 45
minutes ahead in various places. I had no idea.
--
Jim

D.J. wrote:

> I noticed, on that page I linked to, that parts of Australia are 45
> minutes ahead in various places.

gov.au disagrees

<https://www.australia.gov.au/time-zones-and-daylight-saving>

According to D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>:
>>The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>>could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>>
>>[1] Along with other bad things.

That is my understanding, give or take gardening vs just having more
daylight while people are awake.

>Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
>eventually done away with.

He may wwll have talked about it, but DST doesn't even make sense until
you have time zones and they weren't invented until the late 1800s when
railroads imposed them on the country since schedules with each city in
its own solar time were impossible to comprehend.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 1/8/2023 6:16 PM, John Levine wrote:
> According to D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>:
>>> The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>>> could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>>>
>>> [1] Along with other bad things.
>
> That is my understanding, give or take gardening vs just having more
> daylight while people are awake.
>
>> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
>> eventually done away with.
>
> He may wwll have talked about it, but DST doesn't even make sense until
> you have time zones and they weren't invented until the late 1800s when
> railroads imposed them on the country since schedules with each city in
> its own solar time were impossible to comprehend.
>

Permanent DST is bad.

Permanent Standard Time is good.

https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/03/28/why-permanent-daylight-saving-time-bad-idea

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>
wrote:

> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times.

Ben got a bum rap -- the letter to The Journal of Paris is obviously a
joke.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 16:17:25 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>
> Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
> would benefit.

Military too. At least NATO.

When I served in Germany in the late 80s we had Zulu time. But otherwise
used Alpha (UTC+1) and Bravo (summer) time.
--
Andreas

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>
> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.

I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
get milked.

As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.
--
Andreas

On So 08 Jan 2023 at 23:32, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>
> I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
> get milked.
>
> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.

Why adjust them at all? It is not as they would look at the clock and
they surely won't mind it they are ,ilked at 4 or 5 o'clock as long as
it is the same time.

'Andreas

On 2023-01-09, Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:
> On So 08 Jan 2023 at 23:32, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>>
>> I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
>> get milked.
>>
>> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
>> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.
>
> Why adjust them at all? It is not as they would look at the clock and
> they surely won't mind it they are ,ilked at 4 or 5 o'clock as long as
> it is the same time.
>
> 'Andreas

An elderly relative in New York would telephone us very early on
Christmas morning to wish HC. I don't like calls at odd hours.

jtmpreno <none@znet.com> writes:
>Permanent Standard Time is good.

... and you can start it today!

For several years for all my internal uses, I use permanent
standard time. My devices do not perform transitions to DST
anymore.

When exchanging times with other parties, I have to perform
a conversation now.

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>>
>>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>>
>>>> A QDateTime is:
>>>> - a date
>>>> - a time-of-day
>>>> - a time zone
>>>>
>>>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>>>
>>> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
>>> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
>>> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
>>> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
>>
>> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
>> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
>> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
>> of such F*ckishness.
>
> Saskatchewan doesn't observe DST as well. Newfoundland and Labrador are
> (is?) half an hour ahead of Halifax.
>
>>>> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
>>>> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
>>>> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
>>>
>>> Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.
>
> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>

If the areas were all contiguous, you could just rejigger the time zones.
They already jog around political boundaries. if they’re not, well, you
can’t have a patchwork. Here in AZ we son’t observe DST, and it makes
things a lot simpler, except when I have to deal with people from less
enlightened states, and have to count time zones on my fingers.

--
Pete

Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:
> On So 08 Jan 2023 at 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>
> Yes, but that would be rational - so no chance.

It wouldn’t really solve any problems, since people would still schedule
their days around the sun. You’d still have the problem of call centers in
India working overnight to deal with people in the US, for whom it’s
daytime. I think it’s less confusing to have the clock time correspond,
more or less, to the local solar time. It’s really just DST that’s the
problem.

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>

Let ‘em. At least it would avoid changing the time. I still have to figure
“let’s see,what time zone is this state in now?” “Dark morning” is similar
to the reason I heard Arizona doesn’t change time. We’d rather have the
“extra” hour in the evening, when it’s cooler.

--
Pete

On Mo 09 Jan 2023 at 10:12, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

> An elderly relative in New York would telephone us very early on
> Christmas morning to wish HC. I don't like calls at odd hours.

Well, early morning is early morning - no matter what the clock shows.

'Andreas

jtmpreno <none@znet.com> writes:
>On 1/8/2023 6:16 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> According to D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>:
>>>> The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>>>> could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Along with other bad things.
>>
>> That is my understanding, give or take gardening vs just having more
>> daylight while people are awake.
>>
>>> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
>>> eventually done away with.
>>
>> He may wwll have talked about it, but DST doesn't even make sense until
>> you have time zones and they weren't invented until the late 1800s when
>> railroads imposed them on the country since schedules with each city in
>> its own solar time were impossible to comprehend.
>>
>
>Permanent DST is bad.
>
>Permanent Standard Time is good.
>
>https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/03/28/why-permanent-daylight-saving-time-bad-idea

His arguments are not convincing and are specific to where he lives.

The time of sunset varies by an hour _within_ a timezone from east to west,
so any arguments about specific times are restricted to a single point
in the timezone.

Longer evenings win in my book. DST forever!

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>
>I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
>get milked.

They like to be milked twice a day[*]. It doesn't matter the exact time of day
so long as it is regular, nor do they recognize changes between daylight
savings and standard time.

[*] It can be uncomfortable for the cow if they're not milked on time.

On Mo 09 Jan 2023 at 07:04, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:
>> On So 08 Jan 2023 at 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>> Yes, but that would be rational - so no chance.
>
> It wouldn’t really solve any problems, since people would still schedule
> their days around the sun.

What does this have to do with what the clock shows? The sun rises, no
matter wether the clock shows 2, 4, 18 or 24.

> You’d still have the problem of call centers in
> India working overnight to deal with people in the US, for whom it’s
> daytime.

That hasn't got to do anything whith what the clock shows either.

'Andreas