Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've called in Currys/ PC World, Boots, Superdrug, Asda and a local
>>>>> PC repair shop; and not a one has any. There are lots of brands
>>>>> available on Amazon and ebay, however.
>>>>
>>>> Why bother ordering and waiting when you can visit your local pharmacy.
>>>> A grocery store will have it in their health section: same place you
>>>> find first-aid products, like bandages and hydrogen peroxide. Walmart,
>>>> Target, etc have iso, too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Over there maybe, but over here, though it's easy to buy IPA online,
>>> it's strangely difficult to walk into a shop and buy some, Maplin were
>>> probably the last high-street place that sold it, maybe the O/P has an
>>> RS trade-counter nearby?
>>>
>>>> https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/e712e28e-9a2c-423a-933d-bcadbbbd899a_1.5f2ab9ee8535ffce537e6fd7c7397e59.jpeg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When it dries, no residue is left behind. Some folks say to use wood
>>>> alcohol, ethanol, or methanol, but those leave a residue. Don't get any
>>>> isopropyl that has additives, like wintergreen which is an oil used for
>>>> messages.
>>>
>>> That's the problem with with surgical spirit the O/P asked about, it
>>> has wintergreen and castor oil in it.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is what I use to clean almost all stubborn residue; paint, mold,
>> red wine spilled, glue deposits, sticker-label deposits. I've used it
>> for years, very available here in the UK.
>> https://bit.ly/38nIVtF
>>
>> Will this do the job?
>>
>> Ed
>
> The MSDS says "ingest a little, then get back to us" :-/
>
> https://www.bartoline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BARTOLINE-White.-Spirit-SDS4652.pdf
>
> Contains:
>
> Hydrocarbons, C9-C12, n-alkanes, isoalkanes, cyclics, aromatics (2-25%) 100%
>
> "White spirit is a flammable, clear, colourless liquid. It is a mixture
> of chemicals known as petroleum hydrocarbons. Other common names for
> white spirit are Stoddard solvent, turpentine substitute, mineral spirit
> and paint thinner." [paint thinner for oil-based paints presumably...]
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit
>
> "mineral spirits are used for cleaning and degreasing
> machine tools and parts"
>
> So yes, it would probably interact with thermal paste.
> Then, what removes all white spirit residue ?

Yeah, white spirit feels quite "greasy". Not at all clean like an alcohol.

bill wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 16:36:26 +0100, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>> IPA is not "easily available" over here. Neither is acetone
>
> Most (not all, but many) nail polish removers are mostly acetone.

Nail polish remover contains oils for reconditioning
the damage done. It's not a reliable source of anything.
One wonders whether it is even a good product for removing
nail polish, given that the composition is variable.
You could not sucker me into buying that today, as
a source of a "pure" solvent.

*******

I used to mix my own "windex" here, using ammonia from
the store. But that's gone too. I used to mix maybe
30ml or 40ml or so of ammonia to a liter of water,
for making window cleaner. I really miss that stuff,
because actual Windex is just not the same (a poor
substitute for dilute ammonia).

Paul

bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> How do you disinfect cuts and wounds?
>
> They use iodine (betadine) a lot, don't they?

Iodine and isopropyl alcohol are equally effective as disinfectants and
antisceptics (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3888844/).
However, one is messy while the other is clean.

There is the problem with staining when using iodine. You certainly
wouldn't want to use iodine to disinfect your hands unless you were
trying to get a fake tan on them, or look jaundiced. There's a reason
the iodine bottle comes with a small "dropper" tip to apply to a small
area; however, the iodine usually runs when you're trying to apply a
bandage, so you end up with a yellow stain outside of the cut area.
With isopropyl, you can clean the wound AND the surrounding area.
Usually the problem is getting the iso into the wound. It stings, and
wiping with pads causes more damage. For deep cuts, I use a cotton
ball. I still have iodine, but my recollection is that its sting lasts
longer than isopropyl.

Also, you must store [providone] iodine out of light, and why it comes
in an opaque brown plastic bottle. Isopropyl is far more stable, and
has a far longer shelf life. You'll see an expiration date on the
bottle of iodine, but not on the bottle of isopropyl alcohol. That just
reminded me to go look at my bottle of iodine to check its expiration.
Iso can sit on the shelf forever. Iodine you'll toss to buy more
because it expires even when hidden inside the opaque bottle sitting
inside a closed medicine cabinet.

Then there is the price.

Walmart
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Equate-70-Isopropyl-Alcohol-Antiseptic-32-fl-oz/192925013
$2.18 for 32 oz ($0.07/oz)

Walmart
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Equate-First-Aid-Iodine-Antiseptic-Liquid-8-fl-oz/236247392
$5.40 for 8 oz ($0.68/oz)

Iodine is 10 times the cost of isopropyl alcohol. Plus, iodine should
not be used long-term. I'd have to lookup its side effects. However,
for short-term, iodine does not evaporate away anywhere as quickly as
isopropyl alcohol.

For the original discusson on how to clean thermal paste, you don't want
something that leaves behind a stain because that means a residue is
left behind, and you want the cleaner to quickly evaporate. You don't
want iodine. For cuts and wounds, iodine lingers longer than iso, but
iodine makes a mess.

>> Besides using it to clean thermal paste and disinfect cuts, it can
>> sometimes work to remove glue residue when you peel off stickers.
>
> Gasoline works fantastic for peeling off jar sticker goop.

And leaves a residue. If you're going that route, use brake fluid
spray. Wear gloves, because the spray will remove oils from your hands.

>> If iso doesn't work, I use Goo Gone, and then follow with an iso swab to
>> get rid of the citrus oil.
>
> When you consider how well gasoline works, you'll never use goo gone.

Far too corrosive to many plastics, and leaves a residue. I have many
cleaners, but I begin with the least harmful to whatever I'm removing
labels, carpet tape, and any sticky stuff. For example, if you used
carpet tape to hold down a mat at your backdoor to keep it from sliding
around, later when you peel it up the tape will leave goo on the floor.
Would you use gasoline, acetone, or brake fluid on your wood floor?

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> asked
> This is what I use to clean almost all stubborn residue; paint, mold,
> red wine spilled, glue deposits, sticker-label deposits. I've used it
> for years, very available here in the UK.
> https://bit.ly/38nIVtF

My rule is if the bottle doesn't say the chemical in it, it's bullshit.
Bartoline White Spirit BS245, 750ml PET Bottle

What is a "White Spirit?"
https://www.bartoline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BARTOLINE-White.-Spirit-SDS4652.pdf

It's a mixmash of 9 to 12 chain normal alkanes & branched isoalkanes
containing about 2 to 25% benzene aromatics.

It's a petroleum distillate so why doesn't the bottle just say what it is.
There's nothing fancy about it.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 21:50:38 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
> Peroxide is seriously old school here.

I have heard they don't use peroxide anymore in first aid even though our
cells have catalase enzymes, mainly because of studies that show the damage
to cells from the oxidation could be greater than the damage the bacteria
might cause to the cells.

>>> How do you disinfect cuts and wounds?
>>
>> They use iodine (betadine) a lot, don't they?
>
> Maybe 20-30 years ago, but not anymore.
>
> We can get boxes of individual alcohol wipes

Nobody would clean an open wound with alcohol.
You might use a variety of alcohols on non broken skin, but a wound?
No way.

> but otherwise it's antiseptic
> creams or lotions.

That means nothing.
I don't know if you even understand what "antiseptic" means.

It doesn't kill anything as much as it prevents growth.
And it's not a cleaner anyway.

>>> Besides using it to clean thermal paste and disinfect cuts, it can
>>> sometimes work to remove glue residue when you peel off stickers.
>>
>> Gasoline works fantastic for peeling off jar sticker goop.
>> Way better than acetone, which works fine but not as well as gasoline.
>> Just use the gasoline outside, of course, and let dry outside too.
>
> Christ! It's also great at melting plastic. Keep well away from consumer
> electronics. Oh, and it's dangerously flammable.

I was responding to the goo gone part of the discussion.
For labels on bottles.

I've tried every chemical known to man (and then some).
Nothing works as well and as cheaply as gasoline does.

The major drawback is the need to clean outside due to fumes.
>>> If iso doesn't work, I use Goo Gone, and then follow with an iso swab to
>>> get rid of the citrus oil.
>>
>> When you consider how well gasoline works, you'll never use goo gone.

If you've never used gasoline to clean labels off bottles, you've been
wasting your time your entire life. Try it just once.

And don't tell me it's gonna blow up in your face.
Anyone who says that is someone who has never done anything with gas.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> By the way, why don't you already have some isopropyl in your first aid
>>> supplies?
>>
>> As someone said, most people have the little white bottle of isopropyl
>> alcohol next to the little brown bottle of hydrogen peroxide.
>
> Peroxide is seriously old school here.

Except it has uses where iodine and isopropyl, and many other cleaners,
even the more corrosive ones, are not applicable. It is excellent for
blood stains, even after the blood has dried. Be careful, though, since
peroxide acts like a bleach, so don't use for blood stains on non-color
safe clothing. Vets use peroxide all the time to dissolve and remove
blood clots from pet fur. I've used it on a down jacket that I thought
was a complete loss after having blood all over it due to bleeding from
my forehead caused by getting rear ended and smashing into a mirror on
the visor (never had one there since). The nurse told me about using
peroxide, especially in the seams, and washing cold in Era. Worked a
charm. I've used it on clothing after I bled on it from a cut. Unlike
isopropryl or iodine, peroxide seems to seep farther into a wound (or
maybe it's the bubbling reaction that makes me think it got in farther).
I've had cases where I thought I clean the blood, but following with
peroxide and the bubbling reaction proved me wrong.

Like iodine, peroxide comes in an opaque bottle, must be kept out of
light, and has a smaller storage temperature than isopropyl alcohol.
Peroxide expires (3 years unopened, 6 months after opening). So does
iodine (2 years). Isopropyl only has a shelf life (2 years) printed on
the bottle because the FDA requires all antisceptics have an expiration
date. Iso doesn't really expire, but it does dilute after opening. The
alcohol evaporates, and why you need to keep the bottle sealed; however,
after opening, an increasing portion of the bottle's volume is air, so
the strength wanes over time. If you don't use a lot, better to get it
in the small bottles. You can buy 91% to be sure you have higher than
70% during the life you have the bottle; however, 70% is more effective
on many germs than 91%. As I recall, 60% is the minimum needed, like
for Covid19, so your 71% in a small bottle should be okay for many years
unless you leave the bottle unopened for long times.

>> They use iodine (betadine) a lot, don't they?
>
> Maybe 20-30 years ago, but not anymore.

It is still useful, and still sold. Isopropyl evaporates quicker than
iodine tincture. If you want an antisceptic on a wound for longer, you
use iodine although it is definitely more messy due to staining. There
are times you actually do want to mark the wound. For example, say you
slice your finger with an Xacto blade. When new, you could separate the
tissue to see the length of the cut to know where to apply the
antisceptic and bandages. Without iodine, it will leak along and mark
the cut, so no problem figuring out where you bandage.

> We can get boxes of individual alcohol wipes, but otherwise it's
> antiseptic creams or lotions.

I only use creams to apply to the gauze on bandages to keep the wound
longer sterilized. The creams also help to soften the scab since that
is what causes the itching as it dries and pulls on the skin. I can get
isopropyl as wipes, or buy it in bottles.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 17:27:45 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> asked
> Iodine and isopropyl alcohol are equally effective as disinfectants and
> antisceptics (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3888844/).
> However, one is messy while the other is clean.

This study was on unbroken skin which is not a wound.
We need to be clear about this as the peroxide was used on open wounds.

> There is the problem with staining when using iodine. You certainly
> wouldn't want to use iodine to disinfect your hands unless you were
> trying to get a fake tan on them, or look jaundiced.

The staining can be helpful in surgery situations to delineate the treated
areas I would think.

> With isopropyl, you can clean the wound AND the surrounding area.

Are you sure you put alcohol INSIDE a wound?
Do you realize how concentrated it must be in order to work?

> Usually the problem is getting the iso into the wound. It stings, and
> wiping with pads causes more damage. For deep cuts, I use a cotton
> ball. I still have iodine, but my recollection is that its sting lasts
> longer than isopropyl.

OK. So you weren't trying to get it in the wound. Good.
It's fine as a solvent. In fact, it's a GREAT solvent.
It has to be very high concentrations to work as an antiseptic though.

> Also, you must store [providone] iodine out of light, and why it comes
> in an opaque brown plastic bottle. Isopropyl is far more stable, and
> has a far longer shelf life. You'll see an expiration date on the
> bottle of iodine, but not on the bottle of isopropyl alcohol. That just
> reminded me to go look at my bottle of iodine to check its expiration.
> Iso can sit on the shelf forever. Iodine you'll toss to buy more
> because it expires even when hidden inside the opaque bottle sitting
> inside a closed medicine cabinet.

I wonder why iodine would be light sensitive? It's just a heavy metal.
It poisons enzymes. Much like mercury or lead would.
Something must be reacting that is catalyzed by the sunlight.

>>> Besides using it to clean thermal paste and disinfect cuts, it can
>>> sometimes work to remove glue residue when you peel off stickers.
>>
>> Gasoline works fantastic for peeling off jar sticker goop.
>
> And leaves a residue. If you're going that route, use brake fluid
> spray. Wear gloves, because the spray will remove oils from your hands.

My approach is to soak the labels in water if they're paper or just peel
them if they're plastic so all that is left is the glue (sometimes this is
appreciable).

Then in a few seconds, gasoline poured onto a paper towel wrapped loosely
around the bottle generally removes the gunk in seconds. The gasoline is
usually dry before you're done with the entire batch of bottles so I then
wash them down with dish detergent and water from the garden hose outside.

I let them dry outside.
Then they're fine for inside (I don't know of any residue it leaves behind).

>> When you consider how well gasoline works, you'll never use goo gone.
>
> Far too corrosive to many plastics, and leaves a residue.

I have been using gasoline for decades and not once have I seen either
problem. Are you sure you've done it yourself?

> I have many
> cleaners, but I begin with the least harmful to whatever I'm removing
> labels, carpet tape, and any sticky stuff.

That's nice. In theory. But it takes too much time.
Sort of like using a hack saw to cut lumber and then gradually going for the
sawzall before you move on to the circular saw and then finally the
chainsaw.

Me? I start with the chainsaw.

> Would you use gasoline, acetone, or brake fluid on your wood floor?

I don't ever use brake fluid for anything but master & slave cylinders.
Acetone is rare that I use it as it _does_ fuck up plastic sometimes.
Gasoline is about the best there is to remove gunk under labels.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 17:56:40 -0400, Paul wrote:
> I used to mix my own "windex" here, using ammonia from
> the store.

But how do you make it blue? (that's the true secret ingredient).

What I don't get is how they make Windex blue without it staining white
stuff (like a towel or a windowsill).

How do they do that?

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>
>> By the way, why don't you already have some isopropyl in your first aid
>> supplies? How do you disinfect cuts and wounds?
>
> In the UK, the go to products are Savlon or TCP. Or simply soap and
> water.

You get a gash, and you're going to be abrasive to the wound by
scrubbing it? For small cuts, yeah, soap and water work well for
cleanup, but those are NOT antisceptics. Washing away the blood is not
disinfecting the wound. In fact, soap is bad for wounds, so you have to
be damn sure to wash ALL of it away. Soap and water should be used
around the wound, not inside it.

Savlon is a brand name, so no idea which of their many products you are
describing. Savlon carries a range of antibacterial personal care
products. They also sell an antibacterial soap (those are a waste of
extra money over other liquid soaps). Maybe you meant Savlon's
antisceptic cream. An antibacterial cream has use during bandaging, but
is not for disinfecting the wound in the first place. I've yet to see a
hospital use creams on wounds when first treating them. Creams are an
attempt to prolong protection. Like the cream from Savlon, many contain
a wax (paraffin) to cover the wound from exposure to air (oxygen).

I cannot lookup whatever is the TCP to which you refer. An online
search is obviously going to predominately find articles about
Transmission Control Protocol in networking.

What many folks don't realize is that you really do want blood to seep
out of a wound. Best way to wash the wound. Then sterilize and cover.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:05:04 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> What many folks don't realize is that you really do want blood to seep
> out of a wound.

Depending on the type of wound, e.g., puncture is different from a gash, you
want OXYGEN in that wound (and blood brings that oxygen & other goodies).

The old "rusty nail" your mom warned you about wasn't about the rust.
It's about the puncture wound not having a good blood/oxygen flow.

The reason is that spore forming bacteria are nasty where the spores allow
them to grow where other bacteria wouldn't (think gangrene or tetanus).

They're facultative anaerobes (oxygen kind of slows them down).

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've called in Currys/ PC World, Boots, Superdrug, Asda and a local
>>>> PC repair shop; and not a one has any. There are lots of brands
>>>> available on Amazon and ebay, however.
>>>
>>> Why bother ordering and waiting when you can visit your local pharmacy.
>>> A grocery store will have it in their health section: same place you
>>> find first-aid products, like bandages and hydrogen peroxide.  Walmart,
>>> Target, etc have iso, too.
>>
>> Over there maybe, but over here, though it's easy to buy IPA online,
>> it's strangely difficult to walk into a shop and buy some, Maplin were
>> probably the last high-street place that sold it, maybe the O/P has an
>> RS trade-counter nearby?
>>
>>> https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/e712e28e-9a2c-423a-933d-bcadbbbd899a_1.5f2ab9ee8535ffce537e6fd7c7397e59.jpeg
>>>
>>>
>>> When it dries, no residue is left behind.  Some folks say to use wood
>>> alcohol, ethanol, or methanol, but those leave a residue.  Don't get any
>>> isopropyl that has additives, like wintergreen which is an oil used for
>>> messages.
>>
>> That's the problem with with surgical spirit the O/P asked about, it has
>> wintergreen and castor oil in it.
>
> This is what I use to clean almost all stubborn residue; paint, mold,
> red wine spilled, glue deposits, sticker-label deposits. I've used it
> for years, very available here in the UK.
> https://bit.ly/38nIVtF
>
> Will this do the job?
>
> Ed

That it claims to act as a degreaser means it will leave residue behind.
You don't want residue from the cleaner any more than you want to
residue from the oil on your hands. You want the mating surfaces of CPU
plate and HSF to be clean, not just look clean to the naked eye,
especially to prevent interaction with the thermal paste.

White spirit is primarily used in the paint industry. You aren't
cleaning paint brushes, charcoal grills, or auto parts. You're cleaning
a CPU plate and HSF where you don't want to leave ANY residue behind
that could react with the thermal paste.

White spirit WILL leave a residue. If you need to use it as a stronger
cleaner, make damn sure to clean the surfaces afterward, like using iso.
But then if you'll need to use iso, you might've as well started using
it in the first place.

As an easy test, use whatever cleaner you like on a glass mirror. See
how long it takes to dry compared to isopropyl alcohol. After it dries,
look into the mirror at several angles to look for residue. Wash your
hands, dry thoroughly, and run a finger along the mirror. Does it slide
easily, or stick? Sliding means there's a residue.

If isopropyl alcohol is not available in your local stores, why not buy
it online instead of substitutes that have not been tested for cleaning
the CPU, HSF, and any thermal paste. I know iso will dissolve thermal
paste. Have you tried your substitutes on thermal paste?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> shemp13@outlook.com wrote:
>
>> Pharmacy item. On the shelf (covid permitting) in US.
>> Should be the same in UK.
>
> Surgical spirit yes; isopropanol no.

White spirit is not a clean cleaner. Neither is turpentine, or
gasoline.

bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:

> Paul wrote:
>
>> I drive up the road and get some at the Drug Store.
>
> My local liquor store has handles of ethanol but at a steep markup.

Consumer-grade ethanol (aka grain alcohol) will leave behind a white
residue when it dries. That is not clean enough for cleaning the CPU
plate and HSF to which thermal paste gets applied.

BillH <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

> I've used Goof Off to clean CPU/heatsink interfaces since the '80s.
> All kinds of Intel and AMD CPUs. Never a problem. Goof Off makes the
> interfaces squeeky clean, no stains, no residue I've ever been able to
> identify. I bought a gallon in the late '80's and still using from it.
> (Wonder if EPA has banned it? They seem to ban anything that works
> good.)

https://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/5686-GoofOffProfessionalStrengthMiracleRemover/

No to glycols which will leave a residue.
No to kerosene which will leave a residue.

That your dirty fingers (they have oils) squeak does not mean the
surfaces are clean.

Still sold here. See:

https://www.walmart.com/search/?query=goof%20off

You're not trying to remove goo from the CPU and HSF. You want to
/clean/ them.

On 2021-08-30 6:24 p.m., VanguardLH wrote:
> bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Paul wrote:
>>
>>> I drive up the road and get some at the Drug Store.
>>
>> My local liquor store has handles of ethanol but at a steep markup.
>
> Consumer-grade ethanol (aka grain alcohol) will leave behind a white
> residue when it dries. That is not clean enough for cleaning the CPU
> plate and HSF to which thermal paste gets applied.
>

Do NOT use Mercurochrome. it leaves a red sheen with beautiful green and
yellow Highlights. :-) :-)

Rene

bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>:
>
>> Iodine and isopropyl alcohol are equally effective as disinfectants and
>> antisceptics (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3888844/).
>> However, one is messy while the other is clean.
>
> This study was on unbroken skin which is not a wound.
> We need to be clear about this as the peroxide was used on open wounds.

And your point? Efficacy of antisceptics is not a study about healing
rate for various depth of wounds.

>> With isopropyl, you can clean the wound AND the surrounding area.
>
> Are you sure you put alcohol INSIDE a wound?

Yeah, it stings, but I prefer a short-time stronger sting than having to
deal with infection or puss. As mentioned, I bleed out the wound before
treating it.

> Do you realize how concentrated it must be in order to work?

Just needs to be stronger than the crapola on the blade that cut me.
And, yes, sometimes damage is required, like when cauterizing a wound,
or as part of routine surgical procedure.

>> Usually the problem is getting the iso into the wound. It stings, and
>> wiping with pads causes more damage. For deep cuts, I use a cotton
>> ball. I still have iodine, but my recollection is that its sting lasts
>> longer than isopropyl.
>
> OK. So you weren't trying to get it in the wound. Good.

No, I do try to get it into the wound. Guess it depends on your pain
tolerance. I've yet to tell the dentist to stop, but that doesn't mean
it didn't hurt.

> It has to be very high concentrations to work as an antiseptic though.

Just 60% for COVID19, and lots of other germs, bacteria, and viruses. I
buy it at 70%, although occasionally I get the 91% (mostly for cleaning
something other than me).

>> [Gasoline] far too corrosive to many plastics, and leaves a residue.
>
> I have been using gasoline for decades and not once have I seen either
> problem. Are you sure you've done it yourself?

Yep, and had the plastic smear because it started to dissolve. Although
I've used brake fluid spray, too, it's even more corrosive.

>> I have many
>> cleaners, but I begin with the least harmful to whatever I'm removing
>> labels, carpet tape, and any sticky stuff.
>
> That's nice. In theory. But it takes too much time.

You sound like my father. I'd visit, and he'd hand me some bottles to
remove the labels. He didn't have the patience to slowly peel away the
label while watching for shearing of the label. I did.

>> Would you use gasoline, acetone, or brake fluid on your wood floor?
>
> I don't ever use brake fluid for anything but master & slave cylinders.
> Acetone is rare that I use it as it _does_ fuck up plastic sometimes.
> Gasoline is about the best there is to remove gunk under labels.

Sorry, I meant the brake cleaner spray. So, after correction:

Would you use gasoline, acetone, or brake cleaner spray on your wood
floor?

Of course not, because you know those would damage your floor.

Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote:

> Mercurochrome.

That's been banned here. Its red stain made difficult to detect
infection or inflammation, also an argument against iodine tincture.
There was also fear of mercury toxicity absorbed through the skin. It,
and other mercury-containing medicines were banned in the USA, but are
still used elsewhere. It marketed for use on children because it didn't
sting, but it was also ineffective. It prevented the spread of bacteria
while present, but didn't kill the micro-organism, so once washed or
worn away, the bacteria bloomed again. I would never recommend it for
first aid. I remember seeing it as a kid, but haven't seen it in stores
for decades although it was only back to 1998 when the FDA banned it.
While it has been banned here for 23 years, I don't remember seeing it
around for decades before that. I think I saw it when I was kid, so
maybe my parents got it because it didn't sting, similar to how Bactine
advertizes its use on kids (but it has lidocaine to numb the sting).

As for cleaning a CPU, HSF, or thermal paste cleanup per the OP's need,
forget it. However, to be honest, I never ever tried using it as a
solvent to clean anything. Does an organomercuric disodium salt
compound work as a degreaser or many-use solvent? While it was also
used to detect metal fractures due to its red staining effect, that
would be no interest to the OP with his CPU+HSF setup.

On 2021-08-30 7:34 p.m., VanguardLH wrote:
> Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> Mercurochrome.
>
> That's been banned here. Its red stain made difficult to detect
> infection or inflammation, also an argument against iodine tincture.
> There was also fear of mercury toxicity absorbed through the skin. It,
> and other mercury-containing medicines were banned in the USA, but are
> still used elsewhere. It marketed for use on children because it didn't
> sting, but it was also ineffective. It prevented the spread of bacteria
> while present, but didn't kill the micro-organism, so once washed or
> worn away, the bacteria bloomed again. I would never recommend it for
> first aid. I remember seeing it as a kid, but haven't seen it in stores
> for decades although it was only back to 1998 when the FDA banned it.
> While it has been banned here for 23 years, I don't remember seeing it
> around for decades before that. I think I saw it when I was kid, so
> maybe my parents got it because it didn't sting, similar to how Bactine
> advertizes its use on kids (but it has lidocaine to numb the sting).
>
> As for cleaning a CPU, HSF, or thermal paste cleanup per the OP's need,
> forget it. However, to be honest, I never ever tried using it as a
> solvent to clean anything. Does an organomercuric disodium salt
> compound work as a degreaser or many-use solvent? While it was also
> used to detect metal fractures due to its red staining effect, that
> would be no interest to the OP with his CPU+HSF setup.
>

I haven't seen it for ages neither, Last time I saw it was back in the
60s when I awoke from surgery my whole abdomen was painted red withe the
stuff, They must have used a 4 inch brush :-)

Rene

bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:

> Paul wrote:
>
>> I used to mix my own "windex" here, using ammonia from
>> the store.

Same for the cheap glass cleaners, but neither are great at eliminating
streaks. The wetting agent is missing (lauryl dimethyl amine oxide and
sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate used in Windex). Seems the magic elixir
for streakfree cleaning are the wetting agents. Glass Plus only has a
surfactant (sodium laureth sulfate), and it is not a streakfree as
Windex. Wetting agents reducing surface tension allowing a liquid to
spread across a surface. Surfactants (e.g., detergents) reduce tension
between two substances, and are used for cleaning action; however, Glass
Plus uses an anionic surfactant which is their wetting agent. Doesn't
seem to work as Windex's choices. The so-called Ammonia-D is ammonium
hydroxide (NH3) found in other ammonia cleaners. If you go to the glass
cleaners that replace ammonia with vinegar, forget about them being
streakfree unless you enjoy dry cloth polishing the glass.

No idea what Paul is adding to the bottle of ammonia to act as a wetting
agent. He says "mix his own", so there must be more to the ingredients
than just a bottle of ammonia. Maybe he's adding a few drops of dish
detergent.

> But how do you make it blue? (that's the true secret ingredient).

Get some food coloring dye. Windex uses Liquitint Sky Blue Dye. It's
listed on the Ingredients label.

> What I don't get is how they make Windex blue without it staining white
> stuff (like a towel or a windowsill).
>
> How do they do that?

When I spray Windows onto a paper towel, the paper towel always turns
blue for me. It's very faint. In fact, bluing has been used in laundry
products before I was born, because the bluing would counter yellowing
that occurs during regular laundering. That's to keep whites looking
white: the faint blue hue is perceived by your eye as being whiter.

Lay a paper towel flat on a table. Spray with Windex. Doesn't look
blue because the dye is lightly spread across their white towel. While
wet (so the paper towel is more transparent), bunch up or fold over the
towel, and you'll see it is blued.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 19:11:48 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

>> This study was on unbroken skin which is not a wound.
>> We need to be clear about this as the peroxide was used on open wounds.
>
> And your point? Efficacy of antisceptics is not a study about healing
> rate for various depth of wounds.

My main point is that we're all mixing up things in a confusing jumble.

You can't put alcohol in a wound, for example, and even if you did, it has
to be a high concentration to kill bacteria. And left wet for a long time.

As another example, peroxide _does_ kill bacteria, but as others noted, it's
deprecated in some ways since it also kills cells (catalase being their
defense, where the bubbles are from the catalase reaction releasing the
oxygen and water).

As another example, gasoline is a great solvent, which is why I was
mentioning it, but only for labels, where I would never use it on
electronics (I was only responding to the goo gone & lemon oil suggestions
when I mentioned gasoline).

Note there are MANY points here, but if people don't know the difference
between a solvent, a disinfectant, and an antiseptic, then they're lost
before we even start the discussion.

>>> With isopropyl, you can clean the wound AND the surrounding area.
>>
>> Are you sure you put alcohol INSIDE a wound?
>
> Yeah, it stings, but I prefer a short-time stronger sting than having to
> deal with infection or puss. As mentioned, I bleed out the wound before
> treating it.

As I noted, blood is good for a whole bunch of reasons, not the least of
which is the blood vessels tear upon leaving the wound where that releases,
as I recall, fibrinogen (sp?) fibers which help in wound healing and
clotting.

Also, as I mentioned, you want oxygen in some wounds, particularly puncture
wounds, to ward off the facultative anaerobes (e.g., tetanus & gangrene).

>> Do you realize how concentrated it must be in order to work?
>
> Just needs to be stronger than the crapola on the blade that cut me.
> And, yes, sometimes damage is required, like when cauterizing a wound,
> or as part of routine surgical procedure.

The funny thing about alcohol is bacteria do NOT absorb it if it's 100%.
You need _some_ water for bacteria to uptake the poison (but not much).

Also you need wetness time on skin (about 90 seconds I believe).
In practice, that means you put a lot on and you let it dry on.
(You don't towel it off as a general rule.)

What I think most people are associating with "antiseptic wipes" is just
that these alcohol soaked towlettes are used as a _solvent_ to clean the
surrounding area _near_ a wound (but not the actual wound itself).

>>> Usually the problem is getting the iso into the wound. It stings, and
>>> wiping with pads causes more damage. For deep cuts, I use a cotton
>>> ball. I still have iodine, but my recollection is that its sting lasts
>>> longer than isopropyl.
>>
>> OK. So you weren't trying to get it in the wound. Good.
>
> No, I do try to get it into the wound. Guess it depends on your pain
> tolerance. I've yet to tell the dentist to stop, but that doesn't mean
> it didn't hurt.

OK. Well, it's your wound.

Me? I'd put bacitracin or some other broad spectrum antibiotic in the wound,
and maybe if I didn't have any of that, I'd try tincture of iodine (but that
stings due to the alcohol so I wouldn't use it unless I needed to).

I just googled for how iodine works to kill bacteria...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_of_iodine

But that one reference didn't say how it works. I suspect it poisons
proteins (which is how lead and mercury work).

>> It has to be very high concentrations to work as an antiseptic though.
>
> Just 60% for COVID19, and lots of other germs, bacteria, and viruses. I
> buy it at 70%, although occasionally I get the 91% (mostly for cleaning
> something other than me).

You want the highest alcohol you can get but _some_ water.
90% is a good number if you can find it.
60% I would think is the bare minimum, I would think.

Make sure you give it _time_ to work, which, in practice, means you use a
lot of it and you don't wipe it off your hands (you let it dry on its own).
>>> [Gasoline] far too corrosive to many plastics, and leaves a residue.
>>
>> I have been using gasoline for decades and not once have I seen either
>> problem. Are you sure you've done it yourself?
>
> Yep, and had the plastic smear because it started to dissolve. Although
> I've used brake fluid spray, too, it's even more corrosive.

I can't imagine using brake fluid for anything around the home other than
the original intended usage. I'll have to look up what's in it as I'm all
for using chemicals for what chemicals can do for us.

As for gasoline "smearing" plastics, I'm sure there are some it will (e.g.,
try it on Styrofoam for example), but I've never yet had a plastic it smears
in my decades of using it on kitchen food and drink containers.

As for the "gunk", gasoline is pretty volatile. It doesn't leave much
behind, and as I said, my regimen is to wipe the bottle with a paper towel
soaked in gasoline and then to let it dry (only because I do multiple
bottles at a time so the gasoline is gonna dry no matter what you do) and
then to wash with dish detergent and a garden hose (the main (minor) problem
being it falls out of my hand and gets dirty when it lands in the grass when
I squirt the garden hose on it).

>>> I have many
>>> cleaners, but I begin with the least harmful to whatever I'm removing
>>> labels, carpet tape, and any sticky stuff.
>>
>> That's nice. In theory. But it takes too much time.
>
> You sound like my father. I'd visit, and he'd hand me some bottles to
> remove the labels. He didn't have the patience to slowly peel away the
> label while watching for shearing of the label. I did.

I soak in water all labels before peeling them.
Most come right off in the water within a few hours.
Some leave a white papery residue but most leave stripes of glue.
All is easily removed with a single wet swipe of a paper towel soaked in
gasoline. I keep a few ounces of gasoline for this purpose outside in a
spray bottle.

I'm glad you didn't explode with horror saying how "dangerous" gasoline is,
as a lot of people who say that stuff have never used it. It's actually hard
to light (ask me how I know this) at least with a cigarette on a spill
outside on the concrete (ok, so I tried it - arrest me!). :)

>>> Would you use gasoline, acetone, or brake fluid on your wood floor?
>>
>> I don't ever use brake fluid for anything but master & slave cylinders.
>> Acetone is rare that I use it as it _does_ fuck up plastic sometimes.
>> Gasoline is about the best there is to remove gunk under labels.
>
> Sorry, I meant the brake cleaner spray. So, after correction:

Oh. Yes. Brake cleaner spray. Yes. That's a GREAT solvent.
Dries fast too. Very fast.

My only beef with MAF sprays like brake cleaner sprays (and to a lesser
extent the engine degunkers) is the cost. Gas is cheap. Sprays are not.

Of course, in brakes or on a MAF or on engines, I'd use the right stuff.

> Would you use gasoline, acetone, or brake cleaner spray on your wood
> floor?
>
> Of course not, because you know those would damage your floor.

I wouldn't even _think_ of using any of those on wood.
But wood is fundamentally different from metal and plastic.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> By the way, why don't you already have some isopropyl in your first aid
>>>> supplies?
>>>
>>> As someone said, most people have the little white bottle of isopropyl
>>> alcohol next to the little brown bottle of hydrogen peroxide.
>>
>> Peroxide is seriously old school here.
>
> Except it has uses where iodine and isopropyl,

Maybe so, but has few benefits over current home treatments and several
downsides which you mention.

and many other cleaners,
> even the more corrosive ones, are not applicable. It is excellent for
> blood stains, even after the blood has dried. Be careful, though, since
> peroxide acts like a bleach,

It is a bleach not like a bleach.

bill <bill@spam.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 21:50:38 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>> Peroxide is seriously old school here.
>
> I have heard they don't use peroxide anymore in first aid even though our
> cells have catalase enzymes, mainly because of studies that show the damage
> to cells from the oxidation could be greater than the damage the bacteria
> might cause to the cells.

That's not the reason.

>>>> How do you disinfect cuts and wounds?
>>>
>>> They use iodine (betadine) a lot, don't they?
>>
>> Maybe 20-30 years ago, but not anymore.
>>
>> We can get boxes of individual alcohol wipes
>
> Nobody would clean an open wound with alcohol.
> You might use a variety of alcohols on non broken skin, but a wound?
> No way.

Of course you would. It works very well. It does sting, but that's ok.

>> but otherwise it's antiseptic
>> creams or lotions.
>
> That means nothing.
> I don't know if you even understand what "antiseptic" means.

lol

> It doesn't kill anything as much as it prevents growth.

They do both to a lesser or greater extent.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> Be careful, though, since peroxide acts like a bleach,
>
> It is a bleach not like a bleach.

Most consumers think of chlorine when mentioning bleach. It's what is
in the products marked as bleach that they buy in the grocery store.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach
Bleach is the generic name for any chemical product that is used
industrially and domestically to remove color from a fabric or fiber or
to clean or to remove stains in a process called bleaching. It often
refers, specifically, to a dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite, also
called "liquid bleach".
and
"Chlorine, a powerful oxidizer, is the active agent in many household
bleaches."

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 12:32:00 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

>All the websites I've looked at say use it for cleaning inside PCs. When
>you separate heatsink from CPU, clean with it.
>Well, I've called in Currys/ PC World, Boots, Superdrug, Asda and a
>local PC repair shop; and not a one has any. There are lots of brands
>available on Amazon and ebay, however.
>
>Before I order, I wonder if this stuff is the same as surgical spirits,
>or white spirits. I can get those.
>
>What do the bench-men use? Washing-up liquid? Vodka? Saliva?
>Is 99.9% proof alcohol necessary?
>
>Ed

I have just remembered another use for Isopropyl alcohol. It stops
toothache instantly and it works for about a hour. Obviously, avoid
swallowing it.

Steve

--
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VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>>
>>> By the way, why don't you already have some isopropyl in your first aid
>>> supplies? How do you disinfect cuts and wounds?
>>
>> In the UK, the go to products are Savlon or TCP. Or simply soap and
>> water.
>
> You get a gash, and you're going to be abrasive to the wound by
> scrubbing it? For small cuts, yeah, soap and water work well for
> cleanup, but those are NOT antisceptics.

Sure it is. Soap may not be strongest but it is a great first step for
cleaning wound. You can then use an additional antiseptic if you wish and
then bandage where necessary.

> Washing away the blood is not
> disinfecting the wound. In fact, soap is bad for wounds, so you have to
> be damn sure to wash ALL of it away. Soap and water should be used
> around the wound, not inside it.

Soap is not bad. If the wound is so bad that you can get into it, then you
probably need stitches and go to A&E.

> Savlon is a brand name, so no idea which of their many products you are
> describing.

This
https://www.pharmacyrequirements.co.uk/image/catalog/929.jpg

Although they're pushing the creams these days. Probably for convenience.

>
> I cannot lookup whatever is the TCP to which you refer. An online
> search is obviously going to predominately find articles about
> Transmission Control Protocol in networking.

You need to learn how to google better.

> What many folks don't realize is that you really do want blood to seep
> out of a wound. Best way to wash the wound. Then sterilize and cover.

Nope.