On 20/01/2022 12:47, mechanic wrote:
>
> Latest Win versions have improvements that anti-virus software can't
> replicate - Defender is the obvious example. Now recognised as among
> the best anti-virus protection, and available to all users right out
> of the box.

But what does it do that a resident heuristic AV programme will not do?

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > mind the performance issues identified over the same time.
>
> > On same hardware, Windows 7 is one of the fastest 'home' versions
> > ever, except probably for XP.
>
> What about 2K? ;)

That's why I said "'home' versions". (AFAIK,) Windows 2000 was never
marketed as a home/consumer version. Yes, I'm sure, a private person
could buy a full license and put it on hir PC, but that doesn't mean it
was a home/consumer version.

> > > seem to believe that a fully updated win7 system is as good as the
> > > latest win10 version.
>
> > No I don't think win7 is as good as the latest win10 version. I think
> > it's better. (Not quite a) :-)
>
> 2K is the best of all Windows. :-P

I've used Windows 2000 professionally and several Windows NT versions
before that (don't remember what the earliest version was). I even was
some kind of official NT specialist with an official Microsoft diploma.
I would normally never confess such things, but here, amongst friends, I
guess it's OK.

When I retired, I could keep my company laptop (and loads of other
stuff), but the org's IT wiped the laptop and put XP on it.

Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
[...]

> I have had issues with old hardwares with newer OSes due to lack of
> drivers like old USB HP printers too. HP seems to have dumped USB
> drivers and make us use network printer which I did not want and isn't
> reliable. :(

For HP printers - and most other printers which 'speak' PCL - you
should be able to find a generic PCL* printer driver, where '*' is the
PCL level which your printer understands.

Such a generic PCL* driver might not support all the bells and
whistles which your particular printer has, but it should support most
basic functions/operations.

Which HP printer are you having problems with on which Windows
version?

mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2022 21:37:38 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> > mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
> >> On 19 Jan 2022 13:12:30 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>
> >>> He is "keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date" *because* he's using a
> >>> version which is *out of support*. It doesn't matter how much 'behind'
> >>> "current releases" that is. And FYI, he's one or at most two
> >>> versions behind current in-support versions.
> >>>
> >>> And FYI, if he's "five or six versions behind current releases", I'm
> >>> three/four to four/five versions 'behind', but still in-support for
> >>> another two years.
> >>
> >> I see you believe that all the vulnerabilities discovered in Windows
> >> for the last four or five releases must now have been fixed.
> >
> > Sorry, doesn't compute.
>
> It's the logic of your position. Do you not believe it?

"doesn't compute" means I don't understand what you're saying (as:
Can't make heads or tails of it).

But as you've dishonestly silently snipped the rest of my post, you
don't have to bother to (try to) clarify what the heck your blabbering
is supposed to mean.

In message <ssbi0n$dua$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
<java@evij.com.invalid> writes
>On 20/01/2022 10:39, John Hall wrote:
>> I reluctantly did an upgrade from 7 to 10 on my 2014 32-bit machine
>>in February 2019, once Microsoft had ceased issuing security updates
>>for Windows 7
>
>Surely I'm not the only person still receiving security updates for W7,
>on two different machines? The latest was just this morning!
>

I thought that Microsoft had said that they were ceasing all W7 updates,
including security one, after January 2019 (or was it January 2020 - my
memory is rubbish these days)? Did they change their mind?
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On 1/20/2022 1:15 PM, John Hall wrote:
> In message <ssbi0n$dua$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
> <java@evij.com.invalid> writes
>> On 20/01/2022 10:39, John Hall wrote:
>>>  I reluctantly did an upgrade from 7 to 10 on my 2014 32-bit machine
>>> in February 2019, once Microsoft had ceased issuing security updates
>>> for Windows 7
>>
>> Surely I'm not the only person still receiving security updates for
>> W7, on two different machines?  The latest was just this morning!
>>
>
> I thought that Microsoft had said that they were ceasing all W7 updates,
> including security one, after January 2019 (or was it January 2020 - my
> memory is rubbish these days)? Did they change their mind?

I still get the malicious software check ones, but I think that's about it.

On 20 Jan 2022 15:49:56 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> "doesn't compute" means I don't understand what you're saying (as:
> Can't make heads or tails of it).
>
> But as you've dishonestly silently snipped the rest of my post, you
> don't have to bother to (try to) clarify what the heck your blabbering
> is supposed to mean.

No need to be rude if you have problems understanding plain english.
We can track back through your earlier posts if we should want to,
no dishonesty there.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 10:39:55, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>In message <YyNGrtByyF6hFw+B@255soft.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
><G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 08:34:00, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
><snip>
>>>
>>>Sometimes major, sometimes very easy. Upgrading from 10 to 11, for
>>>example was very easy (at least for me).
>>>
>>I couldn't do 7 to 11 - my hardware had a full page of fails when I
>>tried the checker for fun! And I don't see anything about 10 that I
>>actually want.
>
>If I'm right in thinking that yours is a 32-bit machine, that's
>probably the main reason why an upgrade to 11 is impossible. The long-

That was certainly one aspect. I think the hardware (Toshiba protégé
R700-1F5 laptop) does support 64 bit operation, but I have the same
reason as you for using 32.

>term worry must be that - once the great majority of people are on
>Windows 11, making 32-bit machines rare - software manufacturers

(They already are rare; I don't think 32-bit-only machines really
outlived XP, in the main. Certainly, whenever I've looked, almost any 7
machine I've come across has been offered first with 64, only 32 if I
asked for it. With the possible exception of some ruggedised laptops
[though I think they may have been mostly XP].)

>(including AV) will eventually stop updating their 32-bit versions.
>
I imagine they'll stop releasing versions that work with the older OSs
in time, 32 or 64 bit. _Possibly_ 32 slightly earlier.
>>>
>>>
>>>> installing all software,
>>>
>>>Not if you do an up grader rather than clean installation. There was a
>>>time when a clean installation was much better, but those days are
>>>long gone by. I always do upgrades.
>>
>>Interesting; I think there are a lot who'd say upgrading is still
>>likely to give problems, some you won't discover 'til much later.
>>(Academic in my case.)
><snip>
>
>I reluctantly did an upgrade from 7 to 10 on my 2014 32-bit machine in
>February 2019, once Microsoft had ceased issuing security updates for

Was that your reason for doing the move? I note the "reluctantly".

>Windows 7, and it was much more pain-free than I had expected from what
>I had read here. I don't recall any program refusing to run afterwards.

No, I suspect most things I have would work under 10 (or, would be
things included in 10 anyway, or would be things I really don't use).

>I needed to tell Windows that I was using Turnpike as my email

I should have recognised your name!

>application (and that might have necessitated a re-installation of TP -
>I can't recall), and IIRC that was about it. I also found that Windows

I've seen other people have trouble getting 10 to recognise their chosen
email client; I think there are some non-obvious links to doing so. Not
a great problem - the client still works - just a pain when a mailto:
link is encountered.

>10 was far less radically different from 7 than I had been expecting,

I'm familiar enough with 10 (I have a machine for parish council work
that is of course 10, and support various friends) that I could probably
live with it; I just don't see any _advantage_, and there's enough I
dislike that I don't feel the need to change. I'm guessing your security
concern was your reason.

>so long as I kept all the stuff like Cortana that I didn't want
>switched off.

Never got Cortana to work (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur". ("Anything is more impressive if
you say it in Latin")

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 12:39:19, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 18:47:14 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>
>> Basically, just different philosophies. Continuous minor effort, or
>> occasional major. Both have their advantages and disadvantages - and I
>> think we're both happy with the one we've chosen (-:
>
>OK, as long as you don't parade one 'philosophy' as the right one.

I've been tempted when someone on the other side does (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur". ("Anything is more impressive if
you say it in Latin")

sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 1:15 PM, John Hall wrote:
> > In message <ssbi0n$dua$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
> > <java@evij.com.invalid> writes
> >> On 20/01/2022 10:39, John Hall wrote:
> >>>  I reluctantly did an upgrade from 7 to 10 on my 2014 32-bit machine
> >>> in February 2019, once Microsoft had ceased issuing security updates
> >>> for Windows 7
> >>
> >> Surely I'm not the only person still receiving security updates for
> >> W7, on two different machines?  The latest was just this morning!
> >>
> >
> > I thought that Microsoft had said that they were ceasing all W7 updates,
> > including security one, after January 2019 (or was it January 2020 - my
> > memory is rubbish these days)? Did they change their mind?

> I still get the malicious software check ones, but I think that's about it.

Yep, just those. Same with Edge that were supposed to end a few months ago.
I wonder how much longer for them though.
--
Dang humans, spammers, issues, works, z, illnesses, bodies, life, times, medias, $, etc. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
> [...]

> > I have had issues with old hardwares with newer OSes due to lack of
> > drivers like old USB HP printers too. HP seems to have dumped USB
> > drivers and make us use network printer which I did not want and isn't
> > reliable. :(

> For HP printers - and most other printers which 'speak' PCL - you
> should be able to find a generic PCL* printer driver, where '*' is the
> PCL level which your printer understands.

> Such a generic PCL* driver might not support all the bells and
> whistles which your particular printer has, but it should support most
> basic functions/operations.

> Which HP printer are you having problems with on which Windows
> version?

OfficeJet 6800 Pro and PhotoSmart 8450. Both are inkjet types.
--
Dang humans, spammers, issues, works, z, illnesses, bodies, life, times, medias, $, etc. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 1/20/2022 3:59 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 10:39:55, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> In message <YyNGrtByyF6hFw+B@255soft.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes
>>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 08:34:00, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes major, sometimes very easy. Upgrading from 10 to 11, for
>>>> example was very easy (at least for me).
>>>>
>>> I couldn't do 7 to 11 - my hardware had a full page of fails when I tried the checker for fun! And I don't see anything about 10 that I actually want.
>>
>> If I'm right in thinking that yours is a 32-bit machine, that's probably the main reason why an upgrade to 11 is impossible. The long-
>
> That was certainly one aspect. I think the hardware (Toshiba protégé R700-1F5 laptop) does support 64 bit operation, but I have the same reason as you for using 32.
>
>> term worry must be that - once the great majority of people are on Windows 11, making 32-bit machines rare - software manufacturers
>
> (They already are rare; I don't think 32-bit-only machines really outlived XP, in the main. Certainly, whenever I've looked, almost any 7 machine I've come across has been offered first with 64, only 32 if I asked for it. With the possible exception of some ruggedised laptops [though I think they may have been mostly XP].)
>
>> (including AV) will eventually stop updating their 32-bit versions.
>>
> I imagine they'll stop releasing versions that  work with the older OSs in time, 32 or 64 bit. _Possibly_ 32 slightly earlier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> installing all software,
>>>>
>>>> Not if you do an up grader rather than clean installation. There was a
>>>> time when a clean installation was much better, but those days are
>>>> long gone by. I always do upgrades.
>>>
>>> Interesting; I think there are a lot who'd say upgrading is still likely to give problems, some you won't discover 'til much later. (Academic in my case.)
>> <snip>
>>
>> I reluctantly did an upgrade from 7 to 10 on my 2014 32-bit machine in February 2019, once Microsoft had ceased issuing security updates for
>
> Was that your reason for doing the move? I note the "reluctantly".
>
>> Windows 7, and it was much more pain-free than I had expected from what I had read here. I don't recall any program refusing to run afterwards.
>
> No, I suspect most things I have would work under 10 (or, would be things included in 10 anyway, or would be things I really don't use).
>
>> I needed to tell Windows that I was using Turnpike as my email
>
> I should have recognised your name!
>
>> application (and that might have necessitated a re-installation of TP - I can't recall), and IIRC that was about it. I also found that Windows
>
> I've seen other people have trouble getting 10 to recognise their chosen email client; I think there are some non-obvious links to doing so. Not a great problem - the client still works - just a pain when a mailto: link is encountered.
>
>> 10 was far less radically different from 7 than I had been expecting,
>
> I'm familiar enough with 10 (I have a machine for parish council work that is of course 10, and support various friends) that I could probably live with it; I just don't see any _advantage_, and there's enough I dislike that I don't feel the need to change. I'm guessing your security concern was your reason.
>
>> so long as I kept all the stuff like Cortana that I didn't want switched off.
>
> Never got Cortana to work (-:

Intel Core i3-380M Processor 2C 4T, 64-bit instruction set, 8GB max support mem

Processor Base Frequency 2.53 GHz, Cache 3 MB Intel Smart Cache

Launch Date Q3'10

So it's about 11 years old, it has VT-X (a miracle).

It is probably a bit old to be having a TPM,
and won't have MBEC, so the initial install
attempt will likely fail. Then you'd need one
of the hacks to get it to work.

Windows 11 has a 4GB memory requirement, and so
putting the max SODIMM set in it would help.

Since your existing OS is 32 bit, whether you
install Windows 10 or Windows 11 (to get free upgrade),
it is going to be a Clean Install when going to the 64 bit OS.

So, do-able, but with the amount of pain one might expect.

To help matters, you could try an SSD, if you don't
already have one. Even if your SATA port is SATA II,
an SSD can still help. (It's the zero seek time that helps.)

I have demo installs here on the AMD, on some of the
slowest drives going (I have Win10 on a 5900 RPM drive,
so I could get some mileage from a "backup drive"). It's
not impossibly slow, but if you have work to do, you have
better things to do than watch paint dry. My other OSes
are on 7200RPM drives (WD Black 1TB typically). I don't really
have enough SSDs, to be fitting them into the rotation. I used
to use an SSD for the Insider multi-boot, but I gave up on
that because the Upgrade process was so slow. And went back
to a HDD.

Considering the price of these things now, I would
not be in a particular rush to ditch it. And everyone who
could possibly have a TSMC chip in their product, loudly
proclaims "we needs a price increase for old time sake".
I hear that to be a "good CEO", you have to raise prices.

Paul

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 18:05:35, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
>On 1/20/2022 3:59 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 10:39:55, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk>
>>wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> In message <YyNGrtByyF6hFw+B@255soft.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes
>>>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 08:34:00, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>>>wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes major, sometimes very easy. Upgrading from 10 to 11, for
>>>>> example was very easy (at least for me).
>>>>>
>>>> I couldn't do 7 to 11 - my hardware had a full page of fails when I
>>>>tried the checker for fun! And I don't see anything about 10 that I
>>>>actually want.

I didn't want 11 - I just ran the checker out of curiosity. In some
ways, I was rather pleased to get a full page of fails!
>>>
>>> If I'm right in thinking that yours is a 32-bit machine, that's
>>>probably the main reason why an upgrade to 11 is impossible. The long-
>> That was certainly one aspect. I think the hardware (Toshiba protégé
>>R700-1F5 laptop) does support 64 bit operation, but I have the same
[]
> Never got Cortana to work (-:
>
>Intel Core i3-380M Processor 2C 4T, 64-bit instruction set, 8GB max
>support mem
>
>Processor Base Frequency 2.53 GHz, Cache 3 MB Intel Smart Cache
>
>Launch Date Q3'10
>
>So it's about 11 years old, it has VT-X (a miracle).

Thanks for all that info.
>
>It is probably a bit old to be having a TPM,
>and won't have MBEC, so the initial install
>attempt will likely fail. Then you'd need one
>of the hacks to get it to work.

It'd _crawl_!
>
>Windows 11 has a 4GB memory requirement, and so
>putting the max SODIMM set in it would help.
>
>Since your existing OS is 32 bit, whether you
>install Windows 10 or Windows 11 (to get free upgrade),
>it is going to be a Clean Install when going to the 64 bit OS.

That's gonna be a new machine, if ever.
>
>So, do-able, but with the amount of pain one might expect.

For little result, I suspect.
>
>To help matters, you could try an SSD, if you don't
>already have one. Even if your SATA port is SATA II,
>an SSD can still help. (It's the zero seek time that helps.)

I do wonder about it. Sometimes it does get railed on disc accessing.
Which irritates me: I don't do anything that _ought_ to. It's improved a
lot since I got the suspend-unused-browser-tabs extension back working,
but still sometimes decides something else is going to rail the HD. An
SSD would almost certainly cheer it up a lot - but I get cross thinking
I'd be basically throwing my money at a problem caused by sloppy
programming.
[]
>Considering the price of these things now, I would
>not be in a particular rush to ditch it. And everyone who

It runs 7-32 fine most of the time, other than an occasional HD railing.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Of course, this show - like every other cop show on earth - massively
overstates the prevalence of violent crime: last year, in the whole of the UK,
police fired their weapons just three times. And there were precisely zero
fatalities. - Vincent Graff in RT, 2014/11/8-14

In message <YjOWf1h+0c6hFwvo@255soft.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes
>On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 10:39:55, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk>
>wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
<snip>
>>
>>I reluctantly did an upgrade from 7 to 10 on my 2014 32-bit machine in
>>February 2019, once Microsoft had ceased issuing security updates for
>
>Was that your reason for doing the move? I note the "reluctantly".

Yes. (On reflection, I think I switched in February 2020 rather than
2019.)

>
>>Windows 7, and it was much more pain-free than I had expected from
>>what I had read here. I don't recall any program refusing to run
>>afterwards.
>
>No, I suspect most things I have would work under 10 (or, would be
>things included in 10 anyway, or would be things I really don't use).
>
>>I needed to tell Windows that I was using Turnpike as my email
>
>I should have recognised your name!

I recognised yours, but then yours is much more unusual than mine. :)

>
>>application (and that might have necessitated a re-installation of TP
>>- I can't recall), and IIRC that was about it. I also found that Windows
>
>I've seen other people have trouble getting 10 to recognise their
>chosen email client; I think there are some non-obvious links to doing
>so. Not a great problem - the client still works - just a pain when a
>mailto: link is encountered.

On reflection, I don't think I needed to reinstall TP to do that, ISTR
that selecting the Repair option from the TP installer was sufficient.

>
>>10 was far less radically different from 7 than I had been expecting,
>
>I'm familiar enough with 10 (I have a machine for parish council work
>that is of course 10, and support various friends) that I could
>probably live with it; I just don't see any _advantage_, and there's
>enough I dislike that I don't feel the need to change. I'm guessing
>your security concern was your reason.

That's right. There's not really any other advantage to W10 AFAIAC, but
no worse than very minor disadvantages.

>
>>so long as I kept all the stuff like Cortana that I didn't want
>>switched off.
>
>Never got Cortana to work (-:

I never even tried. I wouldn't have thought that failing to get it to
work would be any great loss.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2022 15:49:56 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> > "doesn't compute" means I don't understand what you're saying (as:
> > Can't make heads or tails of it).
> >
> > But as you've dishonestly silently snipped the rest of my post, you
> > don't have to bother to (try to) clarify what the heck your blabbering
> > is supposed to mean.
>
> No need to be rude if you have problems understanding plain english.

Sigh! It's not a matter of not understanding, but it doesn't make any
sense, especially not in context, i.e. a person (John) using Windows 7.

As to rude, as you didn't even bother to restore your snip of your
"plain english" sentence in question: PKB.

And then there's my question which you snipped and did not answer.

> We can track back through your earlier posts if we should want to,
> no dishonesty there.

And have more snipping of material/context and more trolling? No
thanks.