On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 17:42:59 -0600, swalker <sw@newsguy.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 09:39:56 -0700, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>>Who made the laptop. Curious what brand lasts that long unless you
>>rarely use it !
>>
>>>
>>>That's not very old. I don't even have anything that new. I'm typing
>>>this on a 2004-vintage laptop. My primary desktop system is around
>>>8 years old or so.

Mine is a 2013 box running Win7.

My laptop is something like 2000 running XP. She weighs more than the
desktop unit.

Both still run perfectly.

>>
>>
>>
>>KenW
>
>The oldest laptop which predates the current desktop I am going to get
>rid of is an HP machine. Was a nice laptop with 2 SSD in place when
>purchased. When I travel I continue to use it for working remotely.
>The screen is about to go and it needs to be scraped. It along with
>the desktop have win7 installed.
>
>The other laptop has Win 7 on it and it was purchased used and has not
>been used much as it is very slow.

If it was a second hand box perhaps it has slow-downy, sticky crud on
it like background programs the pervious user loved. Or "browser
hindrance objects", malware or anti-malware. It could be worth going
over it carefully.

Apologies if you already have. :)

J.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:31:50 +0000, John <Man@the.keyboard> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 17:42:59 -0600, swalker <sw@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 09:39:56 -0700, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Who made the laptop. Curious what brand lasts that long unless you
>>>rarely use it !
>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's not very old. I don't even have anything that new. I'm typing
>>>>this on a 2004-vintage laptop. My primary desktop system is around
>>>>8 years old or so.
>
> Mine is a 2013 box running Win7.
>
> My laptop is something like 2000 running XP. She weighs more than the
>desktop unit.
>
> Both still run perfectly.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>KenW
>>
>>The oldest laptop which predates the current desktop I am going to get
>>rid of is an HP machine. Was a nice laptop with 2 SSD in place when
>>purchased. When I travel I continue to use it for working remotely.
>>The screen is about to go and it needs to be scraped. It along with
>>the desktop have win7 installed.
>>
>>The other laptop has Win 7 on it and it was purchased used and has not
>>been used much as it is very slow.
>
> If it was a second hand box perhaps it has slow-downy, sticky crud on
>it like background programs the pervious user loved.

It would take *days* to clean my sister's lappy, for example. She has
dozens of "social disease" comms programs running at boot-up and lots
of other crud scattered at random.

>Or "browser
>hindrance objects", malware or anti-malware. It could be worth going
>over it carefully.

Sister also has BHO's, toolbars and a variety of other cruft inside
her browser. She clicks on links in emails and uses Google-search as
her address bar.

I clean her box every few months, tidy up the mess she has on her
desktop - she has no idea of "save to" only of "save" and her "save"
is pointed at her desktop - and try to enforce good habits.

My efforts last little more than the time I'm visiting. Of course, I
haven't bothered since Winnie's Flu curtailed my visitation rights.

>
> Apologies if you already have. :)

There's little more irritating than some know-it-all yoik advising
you to do things you already do automatically because you already know
all about them.

Sorry.

Happy New Year.

J.

>
> J.

On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 08:42:02 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

> Troublemaking asshole? Sometimes, but for most html users, it's just
> ignorance.

In this case though, you can be sure it's an ass hole.

--
s|b

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 16:18:03 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake wrote:

> That's not very old. I don't even have anything that new. I'm typing
> this on a 2004-vintage laptop.

I've got a tower that I assembled in 2012. Runs fine, but I must admit I
replaced the original SSD with a new one.

--
s|b

On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 15:25:50 -0600, swalker <sw@newsguy.com> wrote:

>
>I am going to retire an old computer and wonder if it is possible to
>sell parts for scrap or perhaps someone would pay some amount for 1 or
>both of the GTX970 video cards. Is that possible and if so how could
>that be made to happen?
>
>If the above is not possible then I might sell the thing as is but
>how do I get all my information off of it?
>
>Thanks for any help.
>
>Jim

If I took a clean drive and used it to reinstall Win 7 is it possible
to download all the updates that have been sent out over thee years?

On 1/17/2022 11:41 AM, swalker wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 15:25:50 -0600, swalker <sw@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I am going to retire an old computer and wonder if it is possible to
>> sell parts for scrap or perhaps someone would pay some amount for 1 or
>> both of the GTX970 video cards. Is that possible and if so how could
>> that be made to happen?
>>
>> If the above is not possible then I might sell the thing as is but
>> how do I get all my information off of it?
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>>
>> Jim
>
> If I took a clean drive and used it to reinstall Win 7 is it possible
> to download all the updates that have been sent out over thee years?

Yes

<https://askleo.com/why-am-i-still-getting-updates-for-windows-7/>

<https://superuser.com/questions/1517032/windows-7-end-of-support-how-to-get-old-updates-patches-thereafter>

On 1/17/2022 12:41 PM, swalker wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 15:25:50 -0600, swalker <sw@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I am going to retire an old computer and wonder if it is possible to
>> sell parts for scrap or perhaps someone would pay some amount for 1 or
>> both of the GTX970 video cards. Is that possible and if so how could
>> that be made to happen?
>>
>> If the above is not possible then I might sell the thing as is but
>> how do I get all my information off of it?
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>>
>> Jim
>
> If I took a clean drive and used it to reinstall Win 7 is it possible
> to download all the updates that have been sent out over thee years?
>

You should be collecting them with wsusoffline.

https://download.wsusoffline.net/

One reason for using wsusoffline, is it installs the updates
in "five phases". In some cases, crusty Windows OSes do not
know how to bootstrap ("fix up") the Windows Update system
enough to do the installation for you. Wsusoffline knows
precisely which updates to install first. There is a reboot
after each phase. I recommend using the manual reboot
method, and babysit it yourself. I've looked at the logic
in the automation script, and consider what they're doing to
be "a bit scary" as logic goes, for the options it uses
to reboot the computer five times on its own.

I used version 11.8.0 to make the following pictures of a Win7 capture.

[Picture] If picture frame empty, right click and select "Reload"

https://i.postimg.cc/44vtKkDz/WSUSOffline.gif

Wsusoffline is a portable application. You don't need to
make ISOs or any fancy stuff like that. Start a new
folder on your scratch drive (your work area), unpack the
file, and use the EXE files as I demonstrated in the picture.
It's really pretty simple. But the GUI takes some getting
used to, and your first attempt, you may be downloading
too much stuff. If you're using a Win7 SP1 DVD to install,
then you don't need to capture SP1 in your client folder
in that case. It depends on whether you're building "Noahs Arc"
or just building the absolute minimum, as to how big this
gets. Mine range around 7 to 8GB when ready to install,
because I don't have any Office suited to updates provided.

Paul

In message <ss4e06$1e6ct$1@news.mixmin.net>,
=?UTF-8?B?8J+YiSBHb29kIEd1eSDwn5iJ?= <Hello.World@example.onion> writes
>On 17/01/2022 17:41, swanker wrote:
> If I took a clean drive and used it to reinstall Win 7 is it possible
> to download all the updates that have been sent out over thee years?
>
>Probably not because Windows 7 is no longer supported by Microsoft.
>However, you won't need any updates because hackers have moved on to
>Windows 10 and Windows 11 and so they don't bother with Windows 7
>and any prior versions. There is no money to be made and there is no fun
>harassing an 88 year demented individual.
<snip>

Won't a lot of the hacks aimed against Windows 10/11 still be effective
against Windows 7, though? I'd have thought Windows 10/11 must still
incorporate a lot of stuff from Windows 7 and maybe even earlier
versions.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:17:37 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

Thanks Paul!

>On 1/17/2022 12:41 PM, swalker wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 15:25:50 -0600, swalker <sw@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am going to retire an old computer and wonder if it is possible to
>>> sell parts for scrap or perhaps someone would pay some amount for 1 or
>>> both of the GTX970 video cards. Is that possible and if so how could
>>> that be made to happen?
>>>
>>> If the above is not possible then I might sell the thing as is but
>>> how do I get all my information off of it?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any help.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>
>> If I took a clean drive and used it to reinstall Win 7 is it possible
>> to download all the updates that have been sent out over thee years?
>>
>
>You should be collecting them with wsusoffline.
>
> https://download.wsusoffline.net/
>
>One reason for using wsusoffline, is it installs the updates
>in "five phases". In some cases, crusty Windows OSes do not
>know how to bootstrap ("fix up") the Windows Update system
>enough to do the installation for you. Wsusoffline knows
>precisely which updates to install first. There is a reboot
>after each phase. I recommend using the manual reboot
>method, and babysit it yourself. I've looked at the logic
>in the automation script, and consider what they're doing to
>be "a bit scary" as logic goes, for the options it uses
>to reboot the computer five times on its own.
>
>I used version 11.8.0 to make the following pictures of a Win7 capture.
>
> [Picture] If picture frame empty, right click and select "Reload"
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/44vtKkDz/WSUSOffline.gif
>
>Wsusoffline is a portable application. You don't need to
>make ISOs or any fancy stuff like that. Start a new
>folder on your scratch drive (your work area), unpack the
>file, and use the EXE files as I demonstrated in the picture.
>It's really pretty simple. But the GUI takes some getting
>used to, and your first attempt, you may be downloading
>too much stuff. If you're using a Win7 SP1 DVD to install,
>then you don't need to capture SP1 in your client folder
>in that case. It depends on whether you're building "Noahs Arc"
>or just building the absolute minimum, as to how big this
>gets. Mine range around 7 to 8GB when ready to install,
>because I don't have any Office suited to updates provided.
>
> Paul

John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ss4e06$1e6ct$1@news.mixmin.net>,
> =?UTF-8?B?8J+YiSBHb29kIEd1eSDwn5iJ?= <Hello.World@example.onion> writes
> >On 17/01/2022 17:41, swanker wrote:
> > If I took a clean drive and used it to reinstall Win 7 is it possible
> > to download all the updates that have been sent out over thee years?
> >
> >Probably not because Windows 7 is no longer supported by Microsoft.
> >However, you won't need any updates because hackers have moved on to
> >Windows 10 and Windows 11 and so they don't bother with Windows 7
> >and any prior versions. There is no money to be made and there is no fun
> >harassing an 88 year demented individual.
> <snip>

> Won't a lot of the hacks aimed against Windows 10/11 still be effective
> against Windows 7, though? I'd have thought Windows 10/11 must still
> incorporate a lot of stuff from Windows 7 and maybe even earlier
> versions.

Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
better, keep W7 off the Internet.
--
Slammy Tuesday. Back to normal again. :( Also, it's winter again until Thursday! :P
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 01:26:52, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
>John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
[]
>> Won't a lot of the hacks aimed against Windows 10/11 still be effective
>> against Windows 7, though? I'd have thought Windows 10/11 must still
>> incorporate a lot of stuff from Windows 7 and maybe even earlier
>> versions.
>
>Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
>better, keep W7 off the Internet.

Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
EOS.)

Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

All change is not necessarily improvement, but all improvement is change.

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 01:26:52, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote (my
> responses usually follow points raised):
> >John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
> []
> >> Won't a lot of the hacks aimed against Windows 10/11 still be effective
> >> against Windows 7, though? I'd have thought Windows 10/11 must still
> >> incorporate a lot of stuff from Windows 7 and maybe even earlier
> >> versions.
> >
> >Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
> >better, keep W7 off the Internet.
>
> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
> EOS.)
>
> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?

The advice would/should be the same for any out-of-support version. So
for 'home' type use, that would be XP, Vista and 7 (and of course
anything before XP).

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 11:32:10, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 01:26:52, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote (my
>> responses usually follow points raised):
>> >John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>> []
>> >> Won't a lot of the hacks aimed against Windows 10/11 still be effective
>> >> against Windows 7, though? I'd have thought Windows 10/11 must still
>> >> incorporate a lot of stuff from Windows 7 and maybe even earlier
>> >> versions.
>> >
>> >Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
>> >better, keep W7 off the Internet.
>>
>> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
>> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
>> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
>> EOS.)
>>
>> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
>> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
>> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
>
> The advice would/should be the same for any out-of-support version. So
>for 'home' type use, that would be XP, Vista and 7 (and of course
>anything before XP).

I repeat the question, though: do you know of any specific exploit (that
up-to-date AV won't help with), or are you (and Ant) just giving the
advice on general principles?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

did you hear about the guy who was frozen to absolute zero? He was 0K ...
- Jason in alt.windows7.general (and three other 'groups), 2018-5-1

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:05:58 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

>>Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
>>better, keep W7 off the Internet.
>
> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
> EOS.)
>
> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?

Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
releases!

[Disclaimer: I hope I got this right. :-)]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 11:32:10, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
> >"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 01:26:52, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote (my
> >> responses usually follow points raised):
> >> >John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
> >> []
> >> >> Won't a lot of the hacks aimed against Windows 10/11 still be effective
> >> >> against Windows 7, though? I'd have thought Windows 10/11 must still
> >> >> incorporate a lot of stuff from Windows 7 and maybe even earlier
> >> >> versions.
> >> >
> >> >Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
> >> >better, keep W7 off the Internet.
> >>
> >> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
> >> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
> >> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
> >> EOS.)
> >>
> >> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
> >> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
> >> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
> >
> > The advice would/should be the same for any out-of-support version. So
> >for 'home' type use, that would be XP, Vista and 7 (and of course
> >anything before XP).
>
> I repeat the question, though: do you know of any specific exploit (that
> up-to-date AV won't help with), or are you (and Ant) just giving the
> advice on general principles?

Well, it's not really my advice - one way or another - but the advice
given for 7 (i.e. Ant's advice), should/would be the same for XP and
Vista. So yes, an advice on general principles.

I can't think of any other advice, because *if* 7 would be less
vulnerable than XP, it would be for an exploit which is in XP, is fixed
in 7, but is not caught by up-to-date AV. While such a scenario is
theoretically possible, it's not likely.

So with up-to-date AV, the exploit would be caught on an XP system and
not exist on a 7 system, so both are equally safe.

[Rewind/repeat:]

> >> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
> >> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against

The same goes for this question/scenario. An unpatched hole in 7 for
which an up-to-date AV provides no protection, most likely already
existed in XP, so both are equally unsafe. So again the same advice for
7 as for XP.

(Yes, the hole in 7 could be in code which did not exist in XP, so in
that scenario, 7 would be unsafe while XP would be safe, But that
combination - hole in new code in 7 and no AV protection - is not
likely.)

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 12:40:48, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:05:58 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>
>>>Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
>>>better, keep W7 off the Internet.
>>
>> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
>> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
>> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
>> EOS.)
>>
>> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
>> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
>> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
>
>Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
>happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
>releases!

Not that strange! Keeping AV up-to-date requires minimal effort;
changing OS is a fairly major upheaval in itself (involving installing
the OS, installing all software, updating both with whatever updates
each need [granted may not be so bad if you use a recent W10 for the
install], and then reconfiguring both OS and software to how you like
them), not to mention learning how the new version(s - the software's
probably different too, in some cases) work, where different. AV is
mostly self-updating (like W10 is).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Better to be a free dog than a chained lion - "casandra" on MSE, 2016-6-29

On 19/01/2022 12:40, mechanic wrote:
>
> Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
> happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
> releases!

An old OS works just as well as a new one, possibly better. The only
questions are whether ...

+ It can be kept secure, and as long as AV software can run on it, that
should be possible.

+ Other hardware such as printers, scanners, mobile-phones, etc, can
connect to it. In the end, that is the usually killer, as we've already
seen with IDE HDs.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:05:58 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>
> >>Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
> >>better, keep W7 off the Internet.
> >
> > Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
> > the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
> > sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
> > EOS.)
> >
> > Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
> > unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
> > are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
>
> Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
> happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
> releases!

He is "keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date" *because* he's using a
version which is *out of support*. It doesn't matter how much 'behind'
"current releases" that is. And FYI, he's one or at most two
versions behind current in-support versions.

And FYI, if he's "five or six versions behind current releases", I'm
three/four to four/five versions 'behind', but still in-support for
another two years.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 13:08:47, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On 19/01/2022 12:40, mechanic wrote:
>> Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
>> happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
>> releases!
>
>An old OS works just as well as a new one, possibly better. The only
>questions are whether ...
>
>+ It can be kept secure, and as long as AV software can run on it,
>that should be possible.

I could accept the possibility that there might be some basic security
exploit that is intrinsic to the OS that AV can't "fix". (Having said
that, I've not seen any mention of any such for 7. But then, I haven't
looked for any.)
>
>+ Other hardware such as printers, scanners, mobile-phones, etc, can
>connect to it. In the end, that is the usually killer, as we've

Conversely, that can be a reason _for_ keeping the old OS - if you have
old but perfectly serviceable hardware that _isn't_ supported by the new
one! My friend has had this twice for flatbed scanners, XP to 7 and 7 to
10; nothing at all wrong with the scanner. (Yes, for the XP to 7 at
least there is that software made by IIRR an Australian company -
VueScan is it? - but that costs about the same as a second-hand
7-compatible scanner. [I don't blame the software makers for the price;
they have to make a living. But for the basic scanners my friend needed
- entirely for OCR, which usually uses 300 dpi - it was easier to just
replace the scanner.]

>already seen with IDE HDs.
>
Oh, I hadn't heard about that: are they (I presume EIDE really] not
supported by 10 or 11?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Better to be a free dog than a chained lion - "casandra" on MSE, 2016-6-29

On 19/01/2022 13:20, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 13:08:47, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote
> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>
>> On 19/01/2022 12:40, mechanic wrote:
>>>
>>>  Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
>>> happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
>>> releases!
>>
>> An old OS works just as well as a new one, possibly better.  The only
>> questions are whether ...
>>
>> +  It can be kept secure, and as long as AV software can run on it,
>> that should be possible.
>
> I could accept the possibility that there might be some basic security
> exploit that is intrinsic to the OS that AV can't "fix". (Having said
> that, I've not seen any mention of any such for 7. But then, I haven't
> looked for any.)

It's *possible*, but seems on the face of it rather unlikely after an OS
has been published for a number of years, that a vulnerability might be
newly discovered in an OS file itself, then, if the OS publisher will
not update it, depending on the nature of the vulnerability and the
circumstances under which it can be exploited and whether they apply to
a given user's situation, that might be a significant reason for
ditching it. OOTTOMH, I know of no such reason to ditch any of XP,
Vista, or W7, and am still using the first and last of these on some of
my PCs.

I still have two towers running 2k, which was my favourite Windows OS,
but have not been able to use them for some time since my monitor caught
fire (literally), but another reason for not using them might be that
most modern phones don't have 2k drivers, as in the next point, and yet
another is that their CPU fans are now very noisy, and reliable
replacements can't now be found, again as in the next point. I'll
probably save the HDs and dump them next time I have a clear out.

>> +  Other hardware such as printers, scanners, mobile-phones, etc, can
>> connect to it.  In the end, that is the usually killer, as we've
>
> Conversely, that can be a reason _for_ keeping the old OS [snip]

Yes, as below!

>> already seen with IDE HDs.
>
> Oh, I hadn't heard about that: are they (I presume EIDE really] not
> supported by 10 or 11?

No, I was referring to the fact that only IDE drives can be put in
laptop drive bays that have IDE connectors, and their being difficult to
obtain reliably might therefore enforce the ditching of such hardware.
The only PC in that situation for me is the Dell D610 Latitude laptop
already mentioned, for which I've solved the problem as described by
buying a CD-Drive bay convertor which takes a SATA drive, and really is
kept only as a back-up - I like to have at least two machines running
any OS that I need to use, so that if the main one goes down I can just
use its backup until it can be fixed. The Latitude is the backup for
another machine running XP 32-bit, because I have both a printer and a
scanner for which I can't get 64-bit drivers, and, although I have a
newer scanner with less functionality, I need still a 32-bit OS to print
anything, or to scan photographic slides or negatives.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:01:20 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 11:32:10, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
>wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 01:26:52, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote (my
>>> responses usually follow points raised):
>>> >John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>>> []
>>> >> Won't a lot of the hacks aimed against Windows 10/11 still be effective
>>> >> against Windows 7, though? I'd have thought Windows 10/11 must still
>>> >> incorporate a lot of stuff from Windows 7 and maybe even earlier
>>> >> versions.
>>> >
>>> >Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
>>> >better, keep W7 off the Internet.
>>>
>>> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
>>> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
>>> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
>>> EOS.)
>>>
>>> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
>>> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
>>> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
>>
>> The advice would/should be the same for any out-of-support version. So
>>for 'home' type use, that would be XP, Vista and 7 (and of course
>>anything before XP).
>
>I repeat the question, though: do you know of any specific exploit (that
>up-to-date AV won't help with), or are you (and Ant) just giving the
>advice on general principles?

I'll add my "general principles" advice to theirs, and also mention
that there is new malware that hits the streets every day. A good
security program will soon be able to catch it, but no program is so
good that it catches something new as soon as it comes out. So we are
all always vulnerable to the newest threats.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:05:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 12:40:48, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote
>(my responses usually follow points raised):
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:05:58 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>
>>>>Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
>>>>better, keep W7 off the Internet.
>>>
>>> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
>>> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
>>> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
>>> EOS.)
>>>
>>> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
>>> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
>>> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
>>
>>Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
>>happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
>>releases!
>
>Not that strange! Keeping AV up-to-date requires minimal effort;

I agree.

>changing OS is a fairly major upheaval in itself

Not to me--not unless you do a clean installation.

> (involving installing
>the OS,

Sometimes major, sometimes very easy. Upgrading from 10 to 11, for
example was very easy (at least for me).

> installing all software,

Not if you do an up grader rather than clean installation. There was a
time when a clean installation was much better, but those days are
long gone by. I always do upgrades.

The only time I recommend against upgrading is if you are having a
problem.

> updating both with whatever updates
>each need

For Windows, not an issue unless you wait a long time before
upgrading. For programs, not an issue if you've kept up with the
latest releases, or want to continue using an old version for some
reason.

>[granted may not be so bad if you use a recent W10 for the
>install], and then reconfiguring both OS and software to how you like
>them),

Yes, for the operating system, usually. And to me, that's the biggest
effort.

However, if you don't let several versions go by before you upgrade,
it usually isn't that much of an effort.

For programs, not an issue if you've kept up with the latest releases.

> not to mention learning how the new version

Sometimes an issue, but not always. Again, don't let several versions
go by before you upgrade.

> (s - the software's
>probably different too, in some cases)

For programs, not an issue if you've kept up with the latest releases.

> work, where different. AV is
>mostly self-updating (like W10 is).

Each to his own, of course, but I almost always quickly upgrade to the
newest version of Windows. Yes, there's some effort, but seldom is
there a lot.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:08:47 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>On 19/01/2022 12:40, mechanic wrote:
>>
>> Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
>> happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
>> releases!
>
>An old OS works just as well as a new one, possibly better.

That may sometimes be true, but far from always, Newer ones normally
have several improvements.

> The only
>questions are whether ...
>
>+ It can be kept secure, and as long as AV software can run on it, that
>should be possible.

Yes, so that's not an issue.

>+ Other hardware such as printers, scanners, mobile-phones, etc, can
>connect to it. In the end, that is the usually killer, as we've already
>seen with IDE HDs.

Yes, that's often an issue. Even if it isn't when the new operating
system is released, it may become one later on when new hardware is
released that you need or crave, but won't run on your old operating
system.

The same is true when new software is released. It may not run on your
old operating system.

Some people can run an old operating system forever, but many others
can't.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:05:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 12:40:48, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote
> >(my responses usually follow points raised):
> >>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:05:58 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
> >>>>better, keep W7 off the Internet.
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
> >>> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
> >>> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
> >>> EOS.)
> >>>
> >>> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
> >>> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
> >>> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
> >>
> >>Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
> >>happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
> >>releases!
> >
> >Not that strange! Keeping AV up-to-date requires minimal effort;
>
> I agree.
>
> >changing OS is a fairly major upheaval in itself
>
> Not to me--not unless you do a clean installation.

I'm not John, but I can imagine (many) cases where you *have* to a
clean installation, because you need a new computer/mother-board,
because the new OS will not run on the old hardware.

> > (involving installing the OS,
>
> Sometimes major, sometimes very easy. Upgrading from 10 to 11, for
> example was very easy (at least for me).

Look at your own situation: Your Windows 10 to Windows 11 upgrade was
easy, because 1) you *did* do a clean (Windows 10) install on your new
box and 2) your new box was new enough that it can run 11 (with its
weird hardware requirements.

(Correct me if I'm wrong about what you have and did, but I don't
think I am.)

For example for me on Windows 8.1, I can 'upgrade' to Windows 10, but
Windows 11 will require a clean installation, because my computer is not
11-compatible.

[...]

On 19 Jan 2022 16:16:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:05:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 at 12:40:48, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote
>> >(my responses usually follow points raised):
>> >>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:05:58 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>Probably. Do use updated security prootections in them if possible. Even
>> >>>>better, keep W7 off the Internet.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hmm. I've seen implications of that sort re XP for some time, but that's
>> >>> the first time I've seen it said for 7; inevitable that someone would
>> >>> sooner or later, though. (And presumably it'll happen with 10 after
>> >>> EOS.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Do you know of any specific hole in 7 that (obviously) remains
>> >>> unpatched, and which having an up-to-date AV won't protect against, or
>> >>> are you just giving that advice on better-safe-than-sorry basis?
>> >>
>> >>Strange that you are keen to keep anti-virus s/w up to date, but
>> >>happy to use an OS that's five or six versions behind current
>> >>releases!
>> >
>> >Not that strange! Keeping AV up-to-date requires minimal effort;
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> >changing OS is a fairly major upheaval in itself
>>
>> Not to me--not unless you do a clean installation.
>
> I'm not John, but I can imagine (many) cases where you *have* to a
>clean installation, because you need a new computer/mother-board,
>because the new OS will not run on the old hardware.

Yes, there are such case. However to most people , a new computer
means a new OEM computer and it therefore almost always comes with the
latest version preinstalled.

>> > (involving installing the OS,
>>
>> Sometimes major, sometimes very easy. Upgrading from 10 to 11, for
>> example was very easy (at least for me).
>
> Look at your own situation: Your Windows 10 to Windows 11 upgrade was
>easy, because 1) you *did* do a clean (Windows 10) install on your new
>box

Not correct. I moved the old Windows 10 installation from the old box
to the new one. I did not clean install Windows 10. I also didn't do a
clean installation of 11; I upgraded to it from 10.

> and 2) your new box was new enough that it can run 11 (with its
>weird hardware requirements.

Almost any new box can run Windows 11. Almost everyone's new boxes are
OEM. The only likely exception is someone who builds his own computer,
and inexplicably buys old components for it.

> (Correct me if I'm wrong about what you have and did, but I don't
>think I am.)

Sorry, but you are wrong.

> For example for me on Windows 8.1, I can 'upgrade' to Windows 10, but
>Windows 11 will require a clean installation, because my computer is not
>11-compatible.

Not correct. Buy a new box, transfer your 10 installation from the old
box to the new one, then do an upgrade. That's exactly what I did, and
it went very well, with no problems.