-hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 3/16/24 5:32 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> -hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>> Linux distros cover the full spectrum of maintenance time. Choose
>> your sweet spot.
>
> Which ones are as low for setup & maintenance as Apple? Name names.

Debian. Ubuntu. Arch.

That's just the ones I've used. I left out Gentoo because it takes a bit more
effort at setup time.

All Linux distros are great at maintenance.

> From what I've seen, that's going to be a damn short list, because
> there's few turnkey providers of hardware with Linux OS & software
> preinstalled out of the box.

Lol. You said "turnkey".

Are you perchance in Marketing?

>> You like Apple? And its hardware silo? Kool.
>
> The logical fallacy here is that every hardware supplier will have a
> "silo" of finite products, because no one supplier can offer more
> diversity than the entire market because logically they must always be a
> subset of the total market. The more important and relevant question is
> if they offer _adequate_ product variation to be viable in the market.

Yeah. You marketing. :-D

--
You'd like to do it instantaneously, but that's too slow.

-hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> I've not used GIMP for awhile, so I just got a screen recorder running
> and launched it. It went to go search everywhere for fonts, so after a
> minute or two, I killed the recording and let it just continue to run in
> the background. Checked back a short while later and it was done; what
> really needs to be done to benchmark its launch time is to reboot the
> system to start relatively 'clean'. We'll see if I bother...

Clean boot on this Lenovo, starting GIMP and killing it as soon as I saw it was
ready:

$ time gimp

real 0m4.752s
user 0m2.089s
sys 0m0.325s

The "real" time includes loading a shitload of plugins and my reaction time for
seeing the app was completely load and hitting the key to kill gimp.

What kind of slopware are you running git on? MacOS? Windows?

--
Q: How many Marxists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: None: The light bulb contains the seeds of its own revolution.

Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 20:51 this Tuesday (GMT):
> -hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> I've not used GIMP for awhile, so I just got a screen recorder running
>> and launched it. It went to go search everywhere for fonts, so after a
>> minute or two, I killed the recording and let it just continue to run in
>> the background. Checked back a short while later and it was done; what
>> really needs to be done to benchmark its launch time is to reboot the
>> system to start relatively 'clean'. We'll see if I bother...
>
> Clean boot on this Lenovo, starting GIMP and killing it as soon as I saw it was
> ready:
>
> $ time gimp
>
> real 0m4.752s
> user 0m2.089s
> sys 0m0.325s
>
> The "real" time includes loading a shitload of plugins and my reaction time for
> seeing the app was completely load and hitting the key to kill gimp.
>
> What kind of slopware are you running git on? MacOS? Windows?

Wow, that is fast!
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 15:36:53 -0400, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
wrote in <utcpgl$10gjc$1@dont-email.me>:

> And who sells hardware with Linux OS preinstalled out of the box? That
> alone takes some searching for the retailers, so that's even more touch
> labor time spent.

If only there were some kind of global database that
one could query for such information...

BTW, what hh really wants in a Linux system is something
running ChromeOS. You telling me he can't find a Chromebook?

(Not to mention the offerings by System76, as well as Dell.)

Oh, you'd better go to a Linux vendor, though -- otherwise, you'll
spend "hours and hours" to "make it work".

Right? Anybody else have that experience? "hours and hours"?

BTW, this Linux workstation (bought "turnkey") blows the doors
off Mrs. vallor's new Mac Studio. My benchmark: running Foocus,
which uses pytorch, which is apparently not well-supported
on the Mac Studio. Maybe someday...

--
-v

-hh wrote:

> Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>> You really miss a lot of points.
>
>Miss?
>Nah, just more that they were being ignored as largely irrelevant.

To you. Not to many.

>> First, if you don't want to spend hours
>> to configure Linux, you just don't. You can use it out of the box.
>
>And who sells hardware with Linux OS preinstalled out of the box?

Goal post shift.

>That alone takes some searching for the retailers, so that's even more
>touch labor time spent.

Gosh, you might have to google.

>> Then,
>> unlike Mac which needs to be done in Apple's way, with Linux you can, if
>> you want, change its behaviour to make it work as you want.
>
>Like many, I'm fine 95% of the time with the Apple / Microsoft defaults
>on my systems.

Good for you.

>> It doesn't
>> require hours and hours of constant modifications but minutes from time
>> to time. And each minute invested is used times and times again, so I
>> really value my time and instead of keeping loosing time because of bad
>> design by others, I win time with having something that suits me.
>
>Because those minutes & minutes of tweaking never add up? Nope.

Missing the point that optimizations save time in the long run? Yeap.

>Plus you're implying that the work done by full time UI professionals is
>bad ... but do you have any credible citations for that? Cite, please.

One-size-fits-all designs can be optimal for all users, from toddlers
to experts... but do you have any credible citations for that? Cite,
please.

>> And
>> finely, you can use the time spend by others to start from something
>> almost ready to adapt it easily to your own needs.
>
>That's an argument to go with whoever has the larger marketshare, as
>they've had the greatest amount of user UI feedback to optimize from.

Bad logic. We've all seen how wrong that can go.

>> There's a lot of
>> configuration files and ideas to help you improve your configuration
>> effortlessly.
>
>Still isn't a zero amount of time ... which adds up the more you tweak.

Still denying the point that "tweaks" SAVE time.

>> So yes, I value my time and my confort. And you didn't gave me anything
>> to mow because your way would make me lost a lot of time and comfort.
>
>Precisely the reason to trust professionals to be closer to offering a
>more optimal UI.

Idiot. See above.

Response to be deleted, unread.

candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
wrote:
>Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 20:51 this Tuesday (GMT):
>> -hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> I've not used GIMP for awhile, so I just got a screen recorder running
>>> and launched it. It went to go search everywhere for fonts, so after a
>>> minute or two, I killed the recording and let it just continue to run in
>>> the background. Checked back a short while later and it was done; what
>>> really needs to be done to benchmark its launch time is to reboot the
>>> system to start relatively 'clean'. We'll see if I bother...
>>
>> Clean boot on this Lenovo, starting GIMP and killing it as soon as I saw it was
>> ready:
>>
>> $ time gimp
>>
>> real 0m4.752s
>> user 0m2.089s
>> sys 0m0.325s
>>
>> The "real" time includes loading a shitload of plugins and my reaction time for
>> seeing the app was completely load and hitting the key to kill gimp.
>>
>> What kind of slopware are you running git on? MacOS? Windows?
>
>Wow, that is fast!

That seems about the same as on my machine. I have fast storage and
large RAM.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 3/19/24 4:23 PM, Farley Flud wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 15:51:16 -0400, -hh wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Now get the fuck out. This is GNU/Linux group.
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> First, I do use Linux on some of my mundane appliances. Check the archives.
>>
>
> Then restrict your worthless babble to GNU/Linux.

Compare & contrast is a useful method for analyzing various tools: when
Linux doesn't perform well in certain solution segments, an honest Linux
advocate will be willing to admit that...and point out just what is the
"better mousetrap".

>> Second, you can't make me.
>>
>
> A civilized and sophisticated human being does not need
> to be "made." He will recognize propriety without external
> assistance.

Precisely why I had to point it out to you.

> Thus, you have proven that you are neither -- and that
> you are a fitting example for Microslop/Apphople supporters.

Incorrect. Just being an honest Linux advocate in only recommending
that one employ Linux only where it is actually a superior solution.

To that end, a 'civilized and sophisticated' human readily recognizes
that "Jack of All Trades" is followed by "...and Master of None".

So use Linux where its strengths make it a better choice, and stop being
so dumb as to try to nevertheless force-fit it where it isn't.

-hh

On 3/20/24 5:46 AM, vallor wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 15:36:53 -0400, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
> wrote in <utcpgl$10gjc$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>> And who sells hardware with Linux OS preinstalled out of the box? That
>> alone takes some searching for the retailers, so that's even more touch
>> labor time spent.
>
> If only there were some kind of global database that
> one could query for such information...
>
> BTW, what hh really wants in a Linux system is something
> running ChromeOS. You telling me he can't find a Chromebook?

I've found that the off-the-box ChromeOS solutions have been pretty
lightweight on hardware specifications.

> (Not to mention the offerings by System76, as well as Dell.)

And HP. They've offered some decent towers with Ubuntu, but there's
still then the DIY search for Apps.

> Oh, you'd better go to a Linux vendor, though -- otherwise, you'll
> spend "hours and hours" to "make it work".
>
> Right? Anybody else have that experience? "hours and hours"?

Let's not forget how DFS has frequently ribbed chrisv about how chrisv
had refused to show spending the time to optimize a build on NewEgg
because it would take too many hours...think it was part of the "more
choices are always better" which backfired on chrisv due to it being a
clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.

> BTW, this Linux workstation (bought "turnkey") blows the doors
> off Mrs. vallor's new Mac Studio.

And this turnkey is ... what? And what came pre-installed and are you
still using the same?

> My benchmark: running Foocus,
> which uses pytorch, which is apparently not well-supported
> on the Mac Studio. Maybe someday...

Different tools for different jobs...

....and yet quite ironic that even Mrs. Vallor chose to buy Apple,
despite having an in-house Linux IT family member expert support.

-hh

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 13:00:48 -0400, -hh wrote:

>
> Compare & contrast is a useful method for analyzing various tools: when
> Linux doesn't perform well in certain solution segments, an honest Linux
> advocate will be willing to admit that...and point out just what is the
> "better mousetrap".
>

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

What are those "solution segments" for which GNU/Linux is a poor choice?

I am heavily involved in virtually ALL AREAS of contemporary computing and
I know of no such "segment."

But anyone who makes such an outlandish claim only reveals a profound lack
of understanding.

>
> To that end, a 'civilized and sophisticated' human readily recognizes
> that "Jack of All Trades" is followed by "...and Master of None".
>

No sophisticated human being admits that some frivolous aphorism
can become a universal law.

>
> So use Linux where its strengths make it a better choice,
>

I do, and that is EVERYWHERE.

On 3/20/2024 1:43 PM, Lyin' Larry Piet drooled again:

> I am heavily involved in virtually ALL AREAS of contemporary computing

LMFAO!

I can only imagine what you've twisted that vague claim to mean in your
deluded, self-important mind.

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>On 3/20/2024 1:43 PM, Lyin' Larry Piet drooled again:
>
>> I am heavily involved in virtually ALL AREAS of contemporary computing
>
>LMFAO!
>
>I can only imagine what you've twisted that vague claim to mean in your
>deluded, self-important mind.

Russell talks a good game but shows little to nothing that
demonstrates great prowess. At least I'm not even attempting to be
super-techie, I'm just showing off what Linux can do relative to
Windows, he's showing how to obsess and waste effort on having some
control he can't live without on his spinning disk-based PC.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 16:38:33 -0400, Joel wrote:

> I'm just showing off what Linux can do relative to
> Windows,
>

Hey, hey! How many times did you shit the bed this week?

I asked: how many times did you shit the bed?

Are you going to respond in a civilized fashion to a
legitimate inquiry?

Hey! How many times did you shit the bed?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

When Trump wins the election, you'll be first in the
gas chamber.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:

>> I'm just showing off what Linux can do relative to
>> Windows,
>
>Hey, hey! How many times did you shit the bed this week?
>
>I asked: how many times did you shit the bed?
>
>Are you going to respond in a civilized fashion to a
>legitimate inquiry?
>
>Hey! How many times did you shit the bed?
>
>Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
>
>When Trump wins the election, you'll be first in the
>gas chamber.
>
>Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

You are a joke to me, nerd.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 3/20/2024 4:38 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>> On 3/20/2024 1:43 PM, Lyin' Larry Piet drooled again:
>>
>>> I am heavily involved in virtually ALL AREAS of contemporary computing
>>
>> LMFAO!
>>
>> I can only imagine what you've twisted that vague claim to mean in your
>> deluded, self-important mind.
>
>
> Russell talks a good game but shows little to nothing that
> demonstrates great prowess.

Or ANY prowess.

He lives in a fantasy world:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am always on the cutting edge and way ahead of everyone else."

"The stuff I do on my GNU/Linux machine is on par with the
cutting edge in HPC."

"I use geany and (u)xterm which are both cutting edge software."

"CUTTING EDGE creativity, TRUE creativity takes place ONLY
on GNU/Linux."

"I am always successful at anything and everything."

"I am ALWAYS right."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

> At least I'm not even attempting to be
> super-techie, I'm just showing off what Linux can do relative to
> Windows,

I haven't seen you demonstrate much of anything.

> he's showing how to obsess and waste effort on having some
> control he can't live without on his spinning disk-based PC.

I'd say he fails at EVERYTHING worthwhile:

programming a bust
wife/marriage a bust
professional/income a bust
academics a bust
physicality/sports a bust
GuhNoo tinkering successful

-hh wrote:

>Let's not forget how DFS has frequently ribbed chrisv about how chrisv
>had refused to show spending the time to optimize a build on NewEgg
>because it would take too many hours...

Dishonest characterization of the issue, which was the effort required
to explain or document the process in detail, especially with an
obtuse asshole like DumFSck as the audience.

>think it was part of the "more choices are always better"

Dishonest characterization of my position, which is that there can
never be too much choice in a free market.

>which backfired on chrisv

Good God. He thinks he won that debate!

Only an idiot would have concluded that anything "backfired" on me. I
was correct in the points made. Correct in the economic theory.
Correct in the observed reality.

>due to it being a clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.

It was not an example of any such thing. It was an example of
-highhorse idiotically supporting a ridiculous argument. It was an
example of -highhorse being too stupid to realize that he's wrong, and
that he's *always* been wrong, on the choice issue.

Will he *ever* learn?

DumFSck has made the point that choosing all of the components in a PC
build would be cumbersome and unpleasant, a "big hassle", if every
detail and decision needed to be explained and justified to an obtuse
asshole like himself.

Well, so the fsck what? No one is doing that! Only brain-dead
morons, like -highhorse and DumFSck, would argue that because such a
requirement would turn the process into a "big hassle" it means that
there's "too much choice".

Does it need to be explained again? Outside of such a ridiculous
scenario, the process can be fun and rewarding! Done either alone or
with like-minded people, it can be a _lot_ of fun!

With his "clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" idiocy,
-highhorse, once again displays his propensity to make assertions that
fly in the face of observed reality. I do what I say. I research and
specify each component of my PC's.

Does -highhorse expect us to believe that I say that the myriad
details and decisions need to explained to an obtuse asshole who can
nit-pick every point, every dollar spent? Or, at least, documented in
detail to justify each decision as cost/performance optimal, right
down to latency of the DRAM? Obviously, I say no such thing.

The fact that something _can be_ a hassle does not mean that it should
never be done, any more than the fact that something _can be_ fun and
rewarding means that it should always be done. It takes a genuine
idiot to point only to a worst-case (indeed, completely unrealistic)
scenario and claim that it proves that there is "too much" to deal
with.

This should have been understood the last time I explained it to these
morons, but their skulls are just too thick.

--
'Had I been there looking over your shoulder making you explain why
you chose each particular component over all the others in that
category, it would be hours and hours and a big hassle for you. All
thanks to "choice!".' - some dumb fsck, arguing that there's "too
much choice" in computer hardware

vallor wrote:

>BTW, what hh really wants in a Linux system is something
>running ChromeOS. You telling me he can't find a Chromebook?

Obviously, a Chromebook is also far from optimal for most people,
despite the "larger marketshare" that gives the "full time UI
professionals" the "greatest amount of user UI feedback to optimize
from".

-highhorse's anti-choice idiocy continues to astonish me.

You only have to look around you, to see that he's wrong. Pick a
market. Any healthy, competitive market will do.

--
"Well then by [chrisv's] metric, Microsoft Windows is the best OS, Mac
OS X is the second best OS ... and all of Linux sucks." - lying
asshole "-hh", lying shamelessly

On 3/20/24 6:31 AM, chrisv wrote:
> -hh wrote:
>
>> Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>>
>>> You really miss a lot of points.
>>
>> Miss?
>> Nah, just more that they were being ignored as largely irrelevant.
>
> To you. Not to many.

Only because a 3% Marketshare of a couple of billion IT users is "many".
That in of itself does not make it meaningful within that marketplace,
as illustrated by still having such a small marketshare (especially when
one subtracts out ChromeOS systems used in public K-12 schools).

>>> First, if you don't want to spend hours
>>> to configure Linux, you just don't. You can use it out of the box.
>>
>> And who sells hardware with Linux OS preinstalled out of the box?
>
> Goal post shift.

No, just a customer preference that's being clearly articulated. Some
folks are disinclined to spend many hours to comb through Newegg for
every last option for a DIY build ... sound familiar to you? It should.

>> That alone takes some searching for the retailers, so that's even more
>> touch labor time spent.
>
> Gosh, you might have to google.

Lower powered Chromebooks are reasonably easy to find, but other flavors
of Linux are less so. For example, I've used Ubuntu and found it to be
pretty unfriendly, so HP's turnkey towers aren't a good choice for me.
So do you care to ... can you? ... find who's selling a PC with Mint?

>>> Then,
>>> unlike Mac which needs to be done in Apple's way, with Linux you can, if
>>> you want, change its behaviour to make it work as you want.
>>
>> Like many, I'm fine 95% of the time with the Apple / Microsoft defaults
>> on my systems.
>
> Good for you.

It certainly is. I have ample other priorities in life to worry about,
such as how to keep on reminding BMW drivers that they're inferior /s

>>> It doesn't
>>> require hours and hours of constant modifications but minutes from time
>>> to time. And each minute invested is used times and times again, so I
>>> really value my time and instead of keeping loosing time because of bad
>>> design by others, I win time with having something that suits me.
>>
>> Because those minutes & minutes of tweaking never add up? Nope.
>
> Missing the point that optimizations save time in the long run? Yeap.

Only if they provide a tangible productivity gain. Got substantiation?

>> Plus you're implying that the work done by full time UI professionals is
>> bad ... but do you have any credible citations for that? Cite, please.
>
> One-size-fits-all designs can be optimal for all users, from toddlers
> to experts... but do you have any credible citations for that? Cite,
> please.

Standardization of UIs has long been known as a significant enhancer to
productivity and output quality; some systematic generalizable research
studies have indicated gains can be on the order of +50% and +40%
respectively.

<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328078788_Productivity_gains_through_standardization-of-work_in_a_manufacturing_company>

<https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/JMTM-07-2017-0151/full/html>

>>> And
>>> finely, you can use the time spend by others to start from something
>>> almost ready to adapt it easily to your own needs.
>>
>> That's an argument to go with whoever has the larger marketshare, as
>> they've had the greatest amount of user UI feedback to optimize from.
>
> Bad logic. We've all seen how wrong that can go.

There's always exceptions to a general case. Doesn't mean that the tail
then wags the dog, though.

>>> There's a lot of
>>> configuration files and ideas to help you improve your configuration
>>> effortlessly.
>>
>> Still isn't a zero amount of time ... which adds up the more you tweak.
>
> Still denying the point that "tweaks" SAVE time.

Nope. Just pointing out that said "tweaks" still take time to do, even
before we note that they can also be done wrong, which backfires on us:
care to acknowledge that, or are you going to try to suggest that
you're a perfect being who never makes mistakes?

>>> So yes, I value my time and my confort. And you didn't gave me anything
>>> to mow because your way would make me lost a lot of time and comfort.
>>
>> Precisely the reason to trust professionals to be closer to offering a
>> more optimal UI.
>
> Idiot. See above.

Indeed, for the classical chrisv signature is "Idiot".

> Response to be deleted, unread.
>

chrisv crying harder is unproductive for him too.

-hh

On 3/20/2024 6:45 PM, chrisv wrote:
> -hh wrote:
>
>> Let's not forget how DFS has frequently ribbed chrisv about how chrisv
>> had refused to show spending the time to optimize a build on NewEgg
>> because it would take too many hours...
>
> Dishonest characterization of the issue, which was the effort required
> to explain or document the process in detail, especially with an
> obtuse asshole like DumFSck as the audience.

Don't take it too hard. Your ignorant idiocy about "there cannot be too
many choices in a free market" folds immediately when you're asked to
make an informed pick from them.

>> think it was part of the "more choices are always better"
>
> Dishonest characterization of my position, which is that there can
> never be too much choice in a free market.
>
>> which backfired on chrisv
>
> Good God. He thinks he won that debate!

He did. I did.

> Only an idiot would have concluded that anything "backfired" on me. I
> was correct in the points made. Correct in the economic theory.
> Correct in the observed reality.

Now it's a theory?

"Theory" says Linux users update the code to make their apps and
desktops look and behave the way they want.

"Observed reality" PROVES they don't.

"Theory" says there can't be too many choices in a free market
(according to you).

"Observed reality" PROVES there can be.

Everyone except you knows there's some equilibrium amount of a product
or service beyond which the cost (time, material, money) of providing it
exceeds the marginal revenue (real or psychic).

The wacky Linux distro market differs from most markets in that no money
changes hands. But the same forces of supply and demand hold: at some
point, Linux distro makers see nobody using their efforts, they stop
updating them, then even fewer people use them, and the maker eventually
removes the choice from the market. It's been happening for decades.

>> due to it being a clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.
>
> It was not an example of any such thing. It was an example of
> -highhorse idiotically supporting a ridiculous argument. It was an
> example of -highhorse being too stupid to realize that he's wrong, and
> that he's *always* been wrong, on the choice issue.
>
> Will he *ever* learn?
>
> DumFSck has made the point that choosing all of the components in a PC
> build would be cumbersome and unpleasant, a "big hassle", if every
> detail and decision needed to be explained and justified to an obtuse
> asshole like himself.

Not just to me, but also to a lying obtuse asshole like yourself. You
are gonna make a proper evaluation of all the choices, aren't you?

> Well, so the fsck what? No one is doing that!

Of course you're not doing that. It's way too much work, and proves
you're immediately defeated by the 'too many choices' you claim can't
and don't exist.

The same 'too many choices' exists in the silly Linux x86_64 desktop
distro market, in which 160+ contenders are sitting around, waiting for
you to compare them all.

> Only brain-dead
> morons, like -highhorse and DumFSck, would argue that because such a
> requirement would turn the process into a "big hassle" it means that
> there's "too much choice".

That's exactly what it means. The HUGE hassle is ONLY because of too
many choices.

> Does it need to be explained again? Outside of such a ridiculous
> scenario, the process can be fun and rewarding! Done either alone or
> with like-minded people, it can be a _lot_ of fun!

Only because a goony lamebrain like you would dispense with a detailed
comparison of all the choices, and instead make your decision on the
basis of a tiny few features, coupled with a few 3rd party reviews. Then
you'd lazily and dishonestly bleat "See how easy it was!"

You're a clown.

> With his "clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" idiocy,
> -highhorse, once again displays his propensity to make assertions that
> fly in the face of observed reality. I do what I say. I research and
> specify each component of my PC's.

But you don't research ALL the choices for each component. And within
each choice of component, you also don't research and compare all the
features (choice^2).

Why not?

> Does -highhorse expect us to believe that I say that the myriad
> details and decisions need to explained to an obtuse asshole who can
> nit-pick every point, every dollar spent?

Nit-pick? But you just said there can't be "too many choices"?

> Or, at least, documented in
> detail to justify each decision as cost/performance optimal, right
> down to latency of the DRAM? Obviously, I say no such thing.
>
> The fact that something _can be_ a hassle does not mean that it should
> never be done, any more than the fact that something _can be_ fun and
> rewarding means that it should always be done. It takes a genuine
> idiot to point only to a worst-case (indeed, completely unrealistic)
> scenario and claim that it proves that there is "too much" to deal
> with.

It takes a lazy, inconsistent goob to evaluate a small subset of the
available choices in a market, then claim there aren't too many.

> This should have been understood the last time I explained it to these
> morons, but their skulls are just too thick.

You lose, as you almost always do.

On 3/20/24 6:45 PM, chrisv wrote:
> -hh wrote:
>
>> Let's not forget how DFS has frequently ribbed chrisv about how chrisv
>> had refused to show spending the time to optimize a build on NewEgg
>> because it would take too many hours...
>
> Dishonest characterization of the issue, which was the effort required
> to explain or document the process in detail, especially with an
> obtuse asshole like DumFSck as the audience.

chrisv crying (again) is still unproductive.
From the archives:

"Nope. Obviously, all businesses must draw the line *somewhere*."
- chrisv

>> think it was part of the "more choices are always better"
>
> Dishonest characterization of my position, which is that there can
> never be too much choice in a free market.

Sorry, that spin attempt does not fly. From the archives:

"Nope. Obviously, all businesses must draw the line *somewhere*."
- chrisv on Jul 7, 2021, 4:11:47 PM

<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.linux.advocacy/c/Se6XVzNXFs4/m/6dYquU9yBAAJ>

and:

[quote]
>>> Go to www.newegg.com and build a new computer:
>
chrisv> Huh?

huh? You snipped and ran from the request, exactly because you can't
explain why you chose each part over another.
[/quote]
- DFS, on May 12, 2010, 5:10:34 PM

<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.linux.advocacy/c/toRpTEd4oUA/m/cSEXMg4vK6sJ>

>> which backfired on chrisv
>
> Good God. He thinks he won that debate!

He most certainly did:

chrisv's explicit refusal reply, on May 14, 2010, 10:22:52 AM:

"Because it's a waste of time, "proving" that we can do something that
we *all* do, every day of our lives, including you, Dumfsck."

Where chrisv chose of his own free will here (& many times since) to
squander many more unproductive hours in refusing to offer even the most
bare of outlines than it would have taken to describe his decision tree.
He's somehow trying to suggest that his craven little personal opinion
matters more than formal HSR research by subject matter experts on the
topic of the paradox of choice.

> Only an idiot would have concluded that anything "backfired" on me. I
> was correct in the points made. Correct in the economic theory.
> Correct in the observed reality.
>
>> due to it being a clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.
>
> It was not an example of any such thing. It was an example of
> -highhorse idiotically supporting a ridiculous argument. It was an
> example of -highhorse being too stupid to realize that he's wrong, and
> that he's *always* been wrong, on the choice issue.
>
> Will he *ever* learn?

Cry harder .. unproductively.

> DumFSck has made the point that choosing all of the components in a PC
> build would be cumbersome and unpleasant, a "big hassle", if every
> detail and decision needed to be explained and justified to an obtuse
> asshole like himself.

No, you made that claim, which ironically proves Schwartz's "Paradox of
Choice" that you were being told about.

> Well, so the fsck what? No one is doing that! Only brain-dead
> morons, like -highhorse and DumFSck, would argue that because such a
> requirement would turn the process into a "big hassle" it means that
> there's "too much choice".
>
> Does it need to be explained again? Outside of such a ridiculous
> scenario, the process can be fun and rewarding! Done either alone or
> with like-minded people, it can be a _lot_ of fun!
>
> With his "clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" idiocy,
> -highhorse, once again displays his propensity to make assertions that
> fly in the face of observed reality. I do what I say. I research and
> specify each component of my PC's.
>
> Does -highhorse expect us to believe that I say that the myriad
> details and decisions need to explained to an obtuse asshole who can
> nit-pick every point, every dollar spent? Or, at least, documented in
> detail to justify each decision as cost/performance optimal, right
> down to latency of the DRAM? Obviously, I say no such thing.
>
> The fact that something _can be_ a hassle does not mean that it should
> never be done, any more than the fact that something _can be_ fun and
> rewarding means that it should always be done. It takes a genuine
> idiot to point only to a worst-case (indeed, completely unrealistic)
> scenario and claim that it proves that there is "too much" to deal
> with.
>
> This should have been understood the last time I explained it to these
> morons, but their skulls are just too thick.
>

Blah .. blah .. looks like about the same chrisv frothing diatripe.
Skimmed over because it just ain't worth my time.

-hh

On 3/19/24 4:39 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> -hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 3/16/24 5:32 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>> -hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>> Linux distros cover the full spectrum of maintenance time. Choose
>>> your sweet spot.
>>
>> Which ones are as low for setup & maintenance as Apple? Name names.
>
> Debian. Ubuntu. Arch.
>
> That's just the ones I've used. I left out Gentoo because it takes a bit more
> effort at setup time.

So what websites can I go buy these distro's preinstalled on the hardware?

>
> All Linux distros are great at maintenance.

And MacOS and Windows isn't? They've also had "auto-update" for years now.

>> From what I've seen, that's going to be a damn short list, because
>> there's few turnkey providers of hardware with Linux OS & software
>> preinstalled out of the box.
>
> Lol. You said "turnkey".
>
> Are you perchance in Marketing?

Nope. Just have a preference for this market to buy complete solutions
instead of having to cobble together. Same reason why I bought a
turnkey router, a turnkey NAS, a turnkey automobile, etc.

>>> You like Apple? And its hardware silo? Kool.
>>
>> The logical fallacy here is that every hardware supplier will have a
>> "silo" of finite products, because no one supplier can offer more
>> diversity than the entire market because logically they must always be a
>> subset of the total market. The more important and relevant question is
>> if they offer _adequate_ product variation to be viable in the market.
>
> Yeah. You marketing. :-D
>

One needs to experience just how well integrated the various 'ecosystem'
pieces are to appreciate them.

-hh

On 3/19/24 4:51 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> -hh wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> I've not used GIMP for awhile, so I just got a screen recorder running
>> and launched it. It went to go search everywhere for fonts, so after a
>> minute or two, I killed the recording and let it just continue to run in
>> the background. Checked back a short while later and it was done; what
>> really needs to be done to benchmark its launch time is to reboot the
>> system to start relatively 'clean'. We'll see if I bother...
>
> Clean boot on this Lenovo, starting GIMP and killing it as soon as I saw it was
> ready:
>
> $ time gimp
>
> real 0m4.752s
> user 0m2.089s
> sys 0m0.325s
>
> The "real" time includes loading a shitload of plugins and my reaction time for
> seeing the app was completely load and hitting the key to kill gimp.
>
> What kind of slopware are you running git on? MacOS? Windows?
>

I tried launching it again (didn't reboot though) and it came up within
2-3 seconds ... good enough. In retrospect to yesterday, I think the
reason why it was "minutes" previously was probably because it had been
installed but never launched before, so it had to go through all of its
initial setup routines, as illustrated by it searching the entire
computer for fonts. Given that I currently have attached ... oops, 12TB
of SSDs, plus 46TB of HDDs for backups, that sort of 'go search' task is
going to take a chunk of time no matter the OS.

-hh

-hh wrote:

> chrisv wrote:
>>
>>--
>>'Had I been there looking over your shoulder making you explain why
>>you chose each particular component over all the others in that
>>category, it would be hours and hours and a big hassle for you. All
>>thanks to "choice!".' - some dumb fsck, arguing that there's "too
>>much choice" in computer hardware
>
> (snipped, unread)

Of course, -highhorse battles on, *refusing* to admit defeat.

Imagine being so *stupid* as DumFSck to believe that the above is a
"winning argument". And -highhorse supported it!

*Astonishing* idiocy.

Too *stupid* to figure-out that their argument is easily turned-around
with "If I was doing it with other decent, like-minded people (as
opposed to obtuse assholes who are looking to ridicule and attack) it
would be hours and hours of fun!"

Does that make me right?

In the paragraph that I responded-to in my previous post, -highhorse
dishonestly frames the argument, he claims that a reasonable and
correct argument "backfired", and he conjures-up and attacks with shit
which is clearly untrue, like his "clear example of
do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" nonsense.

IOW, nothing but garbage. That's classic -highhorse, when he's
defeated, butthurt, and has got nothing *but* garbage to respond with.

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 13:13:02 -0400, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
wrote in <utf5eu$1jl3d$1@dont-email.me>:

> On 3/20/24 5:46 AM, vallor wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 15:36:53 -0400, -hh
>> <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
>> wrote in <utcpgl$10gjc$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>> And who sells hardware with Linux OS preinstalled out of the box? That
>>> alone takes some searching for the retailers, so that's even more
>>> touch labor time spent.
>>
>> If only there were some kind of global database that one could query
>> for such information...
>>
>> BTW, what hh really wants in a Linux system is something running
>> ChromeOS. You telling me he can't find a Chromebook?
>
>
> I've found that the off-the-box ChromeOS solutions have been pretty
> lightweight on hardware specifications.
>
>
>> (Not to mention the offerings by System76, as well as Dell.)
>
> And HP. They've offered some decent towers with Ubuntu, but there's
> still then the DIY search for Apps.
>
>
>> Oh, you'd better go to a Linux vendor, though -- otherwise, you'll
>> spend "hours and hours" to "make it work".
>>
>> Right? Anybody else have that experience? "hours and hours"?
>
> Let's not forget how DFS has frequently ribbed chrisv about how chrisv
> had refused to show spending the time to optimize a build on NewEgg
> because it would take too many hours...think it was part of the "more
> choices are always better" which backfired on chrisv due to it being a
> clear example of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.

And how is this related to the price of tea in China?

>> BTW, this Linux workstation (bought "turnkey") blows the doors off Mrs.
>> vallor's new Mac Studio.
>
> And this turnkey is ... what?

I've only mentioned it half-a-dozen times. System76 Thelio.

> And what came pre-installed and are you
> still using the same?

No, and I didn't spend "hours and hours" to switch
it over to Linux Mint.

[[ There _is_ a problem with Linux, but it isn't what
you say it is. I will post that under separate cover. ]]

>
>> My benchmark: running Foocus,
>> which uses pytorch, which is apparently not well-supported on the Mac
>> Studio. Maybe someday...
>
> Different tools for different jobs...

Can you elaborate? Why would you expect a system that touts
having a "neural engine" to utterly fail against the Thelio
when it comes to generative AI?

> ...and yet quite ironic that even Mrs. Vallor chose to buy Apple,
> despite having an in-house Linux IT family member expert support.

Beats the pants off of using Windows. MacOS is Unix, and I do know
Unix, which is one reason why this is a Unix household.

I'm the one that got her the system. Her iMac was too
weak, and don't get me started about "Mac minis". Almost got her
a Mac Pro, but she thought that would be too extravagant. So
a Mac Studio splits the difference if one wants to throw money
at the problem that Apple performance sucks.

She also wants another system to run games on, since Apple has a blind
spot when it comes to modern immersive entertainment. That will almost
certainly be Linux, depending on how important MS Flight
Simulator ends up in the equation. And, will be potentially using
the same Studio monitor if Apple hasn't walled people off
of that with their "stupid connector tricks": in other words,
the only "hours and hours" to be spent would be to make it work
with Apple hardware.

Actually, scratch that, my time isn't worth the effort to fight with
Apple hardware, when I can find her a nice, standard, 4K monitor
for less. So there you go, Hugh -- no "hours and hours", problem
solved.

Now for my other post...

--
-v

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 17:43:43 +0000, Nuxxie wrote:

> I am heavily involved in virtually ALL AREAS of contemporary computing
> and I know of no such "segment."

I should collect your pithy sayings to add to the fortune database.

$ fortune | cowsay
________________________________________
/ When you are about to die, a wombat is \
| better than no company at all. |
| |
| -- Roger Zelazny, "Doorways in the |
\ Sand" /
----------------------------------------
\ ^__^
\ (oo)\_______
(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||

For the Pythonistas, yes there is a cowsay module.

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 20:30:25 -0400, -hh wrote:

> And MacOS and Windows isn't? They've also had "auto-update" for years
> now.

Yes. My Windows 11 box auto-updated today. After straining and farting for
15 minutes it came up with a screen 'rolling back you changes'. Another 15
minutes it was good to go.

Disclaimer: The box is on the Windows Insider channel and the same update
has be failing for about a month. The natives are getting pissed. The good
news is the machine still works so if it never updates again I don't care.
At least this isn't as bad as when they slipped out a 'Windows Next'
patch. That POS would try and fail every night.