On Feb 14, 2024 at 2:15:05 AM EST, "RonB" <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2024-02-14, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
>> On Feb 13, 2024 at 5:46:12 PM EST, "Farley Flud" <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>
>>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>>> recess.
>>
>> It is actually much worse than that. They are "designed" by programmers who
>> don't have a clue about visual design.
>
> Really? Because Cinnamon looks a whole lot like Windows 10 and 11. And so
> does Mate and Xfce the way Linux Mint sets it up.

So? Its very easy to copy the hard work of someone else. Which, after all, is
really what Linux is all about. A cheap copy of various originals.

The hard part is coming up with your own ORIGINAL design that looks good and
is easy to use.

If the best you can say about Linux is "It looks a whole lot like Windows 10
and 11", that explains why it is a failure for desktop use. We already have
Windows.

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:38:14 AM UTC-5, RabidPedagog wrote:

> Since the very beginning, it
> was built to be as intuitive as possible and it is indeed as intuitive
> as possible. Don't want an app? Drag it to the trash. Want to add a
> picture to your e-mail? Drag it to the compose window. Want to add a
> logo to a document you're writing? Drag it to the document editor.
>

One is supposed to know about computers before using a computer.
This "intuitive" crap is only for brain-dead pussies.

GNU/Linux is like amateur radio. M$/Apphole is like CB radio.

To get an amateur radio license one must pass an examination,
administered by government authorities, that demonstrates adequate
technical knowledge. To use a CB radio, any knucklehead can walk
into Best Buy, grab a radio, and start blabbering.

Yes, the analogy is quite apt.

Unfortunately, GNU/Linux is creeping toward CB status with such
organizations like freedesktop (the folks behing GNOME) adopting the
"intuitive" philosophy:

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/colord/profiles.html

If you want pure, technical Linux, amateur radio style, stay the hell
away from these DEs.

But as I indicated, staying away is rather easy due to the piss poor,
almost infantile, GUI design.

Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
>On Feb 14, 2024 at 2:15:05?AM EST, "RonB" <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-02-14, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
>>>
>>> [Linux GUIs] are "designed" by programmers who
>>> don't have a clue about visual design.
>>
>> Really? Because Cinnamon looks a whole lot like Windows 10 and 11. And so
>> does Mate and Xfce the way Linux Mint sets it up.
>
>So? Its very easy to copy the hard work of someone else. Which, after all, is
>really what Linux is all about. A cheap copy of various originals.
>
>The hard part is coming up with your own ORIGINAL design that looks good and
>is easy to use.
>
>If the best you can say about Linux is "It looks a whole lot like Windows 10
>and 11", that explains why it is a failure for desktop use. We already have
>Windows.

Just shut the hell up with that in COLA, Mactard, we know Cinnamon and
other DEs "copy" Winblows' look, big fucking deal, you act like that
means one should just put up with the bloatware from M$. All the
while posting from a God damn Apple machine. You fucking *loser*. Go
away.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Lord Master <lordiemassa@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you want pure, technical Linux, amateur radio style, stay the hell
>away from these DEs.

Lay off the meth.

>But as I indicated, staying away is rather easy due to the piss poor,
>almost infantile, GUI design.

Wrong.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Tyrone wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Feb 13, 2024 at 5:46:12 PM EST, "Farley Flud" <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>
>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>> recess.
>
> It is actually much worse than that. They are "designed" by programmers who
> don't have a clue about visual design.
>
> I have made this point before. Congratulations. You are beginning to see
> reality.
>
> I have been programming for over 30 years. Yes, professionally and get paid
> good money for it. It would never occur to me to attempt to design a screen.
> No Project Manager would even ASK me to do it. Someone else designs it. PMs DO
> want me to figure out the code and logic on the back end to do what is needed
> for the pretty screen front end.
>
> That's how it works in the real world. Good visual design is a VERY different
> skill set than good coding and logic.
>
>> Can there be any doubt that most people would just puke
>> and return to Microslop Winblows?
>
> This is why Windows and Macs are so successful. They look good ...

LMAO at Windows looks good :-D

--
You have a truly strong individuality.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 02:10:39 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
>
>> Nothing spoon fed here. Who is "holding my hand"? I have been using
>> computers for longer than you have been alive. I was programming a
>> Honeywell H-200 mainframe in Fortran and COBOL - on 80 column punch
>> cards! - in 1974. I bought my first computer in 1978. I was writing
>> games in Assembly language by 1979.
>
> Late starter...

As a high-school junior, the math teachers started us on programming by handing
us pencil-markable hollerith cards and having us build BASIC programs. Some
actually started to understand what they were doing. For awhile I knew
hollerith code by heart.

Then got access to teletypes with paper tape.

--
Your boyfriend takes chocolate from strangers.

Tyrone wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Feb 13, 2024 at 11:03:37 PM EST, "rbowman" <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 00:04:45 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
>>
>>> I have been programming for over 30 years. Yes, professionally and get
>>> paid good money for it. It would never occur to me to attempt to design
>>> a screen. No Project Manager would even ASK me to do it. Someone else
>>> designs it. PMs DO want me to figure out the code and logic on the back
>>> end to do what is needed for the pretty screen front end.
>>
>> I've made that point many times. As a programmer to design a new GUI and
>> it will either liik a lot like the old one or will look like a pile of dog
>> shit.
>
> Exactly. Which explains why most Linux apps/GUIs/whatever look the way they
> do.

Sure they do, "Tyrone".

https://www.cultofmac.com/715717/fantastic-fugly-all-new-app-icons-macos-big-sur/

I almost thought it was Linux desktop for a second! :-D

--
The Least Successful Collector
Betsy Baker played a central role in the history of collecting. She
was employed as a servant in the house of John Warburton (1682-1759) who had
amassed a fine collection of 58 first edition plays, including most of the
works of Shakespeare.
One day Warburton returned home to find 55 of them charred beyond
legibility. Betsy had either burned them or used them as pie bottoms. The
remaining three folios are now in the British Museum.
The only comparable literary figure was the maid who in 1835 burned
the manuscript of the first volume of Thomas Carlyle's "The Hisory of the
French Revolution", thinking it was wastepaper.
-- Stephen Pile, "The Book of Heroic Failures"

vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 22:46:12 +0000, Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote in
> <17b38d9927fae11c$85782$395177$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>:
>
>> Hey GNU/Linux aficionados! (Distro jockeys get lost.)
>>
>> Most people don't even know about desktop Linux, but the
>> few ones that do know don't seem too enthused.
>>
>> Why is this?
>>
>> Recently, I had a problem that required me to use a Linux
>> "rescue" USB. I used the Gentoo Live distro that contains
>> KDE Plasma as the DE.
>>
>> Oh my fucking God! KDE Plasma is droll to say the very
>> least. Plasma impresses me like the art work of elementary
>> school students who post their "creations" on the school
>> bulletin boards. It is puerile junk. It is almost laughable.
>>
>> Then there is System Rescue, another live USB, that contains
>> the XFCE DE. Again, pure juvenile garbage. It can make one
>> sick just to use that crap.
>>
>> What about GNOME? I believe that Gentoo Live USBs used to
>> offer a choice of DEs, including GNOME. IIRC, GNOME was
>> equally puerile.
>>
>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>> recess.
>>
>> Can there be any doubt that most people would just puke
>> and return to Microslop Winblows?
>>
>> GNU/Linux is by far the superior OS, but one would never
>> suspect when given the popular DE offerings.
>>
>> I use FVWM3 window manager and it is truly beautiful
>> in its simplicity and functionality. The same can be
>> said for OpenBox.
>>
>> But the popular DEs? They can only repel and not attract.
>
> xfce4 does the job for me.
>
> What do you want to do with fvwm that can't be done with
> xfce?
>
> (I used to use fvwm...I think in the 90's?)

Everyone has their sweet spot. I like xfce, but mine is fluxbox.
One thing I don't like about xfce is that, when you move a window that is
maximized vertically, it reverts to its original dimensions, and you have to
maximize it again. The horror!

--
Your manuscript is both good and original, but the part that is good is not
original and the part that is original is not good.
-- Samuel Johnson

Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>Tyrone wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>> On Feb 13, 2024 at 11:03:37 PM EST, "rbowman" <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 00:04:45 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have been programming for over 30 years. Yes, professionally and get
>>>> paid good money for it. It would never occur to me to attempt to design
>>>> a screen. No Project Manager would even ASK me to do it. Someone else
>>>> designs it. PMs DO want me to figure out the code and logic on the back
>>>> end to do what is needed for the pretty screen front end.
>>>
>>> I've made that point many times. As a programmer to design a new GUI and
>>> it will either liik a lot like the old one or will look like a pile of dog
>>> shit.
>>
>> Exactly. Which explains why most Linux apps/GUIs/whatever look the way they
>> do.
>
>Sure they do, "Tyrone".
>
> https://www.cultofmac.com/715717/fantastic-fugly-all-new-app-icons-macos-big-sur/
>
>I almost thought it was Linux desktop for a second! :-D

If that's the kind of foolishness the self-described cult concerns
itself with, JFC. I don't see anything lacking in Mint Cinnamon's GUI
features. I have the best of everything, and it'll support my
hardware till the cows come home.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2/14/2024 3:38 AM, Larry 'Stupid Cunt' Piet wrote:

> Aesthetics is a BIG PART of the personal computing experience.

"aesthetics has no place in a computing system."
- Feeb Jan 2019

> If one sits of front of the screen for long periods, as most
> Linux enthusiasts do, then it has to look good.

"Aesthetics is for stupid cunts."
- Feeb Jan 2019

> Aesthetics are indeed critical, and the popular DEs present
> puerile junk.

"Aesthetic concerns are only for stupid cunts."
- Feeb Jan 2019

You really are a stupid cunt.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 08:38:37 +0000, Farley Flud wrote:

> Aesthetics is a BIG PART of the personal computing experience.
> If one sits of front of the screen for long periods, as most Linux
> enthusiasts do, then it has to look good.

I guess if you only sit there staring at the screen. I'm either working in
Konsole or Windows Terminal, or an IDE like VSCode, Arduino IDE v2, or Mu
or using gVim.

The extent of my aesthetics is looking for the configuring Konsole to
black on light brown or getting rid of the dark mode that sometimes is the
default.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 06:03:20 -0800 (PST), Lord Master wrote:

> GNU/Linux is like amateur radio. M$/Apphole is like CB radio.
>
> To get an amateur radio license one must pass an examination,
> administered by government authorities, that demonstrates adequate
> technical knowledge. To use a CB radio, any knucklehead can walk into
> Best Buy, grab a radio, and start blabbering.

Okay, going with that analogy, I have an Advanced license. That doesn't
exist anymore but if you had it you were grandfathered in. That required
the ability to receive Morse code at 14 wpm, a skill as handy as being a
wheelwright, but demanded by the government.
'
There was push back when the no-code Technician license was introduced.
The feeling was any knucklehead could get a license, walk into Best Buy,
grab a 2m handi-talki, and start blabbering. That was the case until cell
phones became inexpensive.

On 2/13/2024 5:46 PM, Lameass Larry Piet wrote:

> But the popular DEs? They can only repel and not attract.

Did you forget you're not stuck with the default looks? You can
configure and skin and theme most Linux and Windows desktops to your
heart's content.

There are hundreds of Windows themes and skins out there.

https://www.google.com/search?q=windows+11+themes+and+skins

https://cairoshell.com

https://skinpacks.com

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/

https://www.makeuseof.com/windows-11-themes/

Make Windows look like Ubuntu
https://i0.wp.com/dl.skinpacks.com/skin_pack/ubuntu/ubuntul.png?ssl=1

Here's a beauty:
https://skinpacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/VirtualBox_win11-skinpacks.com_12_02_2024_21_18_51.jpg

On 2/14/2024 4:08 AM, Joel wrote:
> Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 04:37:55 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> All I can say is this: most popular versions of Microsoft Windows present
>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during recess.
>>
>> It's not the GUI that causes (or should cause) people to flee Microslop.
>> It is the general nature of the OS itself, which is garbage.
>>
>> But the Microslop GUI is more professional in design than the GNU/Linux DEs,
>> with the exception of it rigidity. With M$ there are only two themes, light
>> and dark, and both are annoying in the long term.
>>
>> GNU/Linux, however, offers more flexibility in being nearly infinitely
>> configurable. At least that used to be the case. With GTK+3 we now see
>> much greater GUI rigidity.
>>
>> That's why I use only WMs and stick with fvwm3. It is based in the "old
>> school" philosophy of offering an abundance of user control.
>
>
> And you just converted millions to Linux, heh. Your advocacy speaks
> for itself ...

1 billion were permanently turned off Linux by cola nutjobs: you, Feeb,
Rex Ballard, 7, shitv, Roy Spamowitz, etc.

On 2/14/24 08:03, Lord Master wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:38:14 AM UTC-5, RabidPedagog wrote:
>
>> Since the very beginning, it
>> was built to be as intuitive as possible and it is indeed as intuitive
>> as possible. Don't want an app? Drag it to the trash. Want to add a
>> picture to your e-mail? Drag it to the compose window. Want to add a
>> logo to a document you're writing? Drag it to the document editor.
>>
>
> One is supposed to know about computers before using a computer.
> This "intuitive" crap is only for brain-dead pussies.
>
> GNU/Linux is like amateur radio. M$/Apphole is like CB radio.
>
> To get an amateur radio license one must pass an examination,
> administered by government authorities, that demonstrates adequate
> technical knowledge. To use a CB radio, any knucklehead can walk
> into Best Buy, grab a radio, and start blabbering.

Getting an amateur license isn't too hard, bc I have one.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2/14/24 08:37, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 22:46:12 +0000, Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote in
>> <17b38d9927fae11c$85782$395177$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>:
>>
>>> Hey GNU/Linux aficionados! (Distro jockeys get lost.)
>>>
>>> Most people don't even know about desktop Linux, but the
>>> few ones that do know don't seem too enthused.
>>>
>>> Why is this?
>>>
>>> Recently, I had a problem that required me to use a Linux
>>> "rescue" USB. I used the Gentoo Live distro that contains
>>> KDE Plasma as the DE.
>>>
>>> Oh my fucking God! KDE Plasma is droll to say the very
>>> least. Plasma impresses me like the art work of elementary
>>> school students who post their "creations" on the school
>>> bulletin boards. It is puerile junk. It is almost laughable.
>>>
>>> Then there is System Rescue, another live USB, that contains
>>> the XFCE DE. Again, pure juvenile garbage. It can make one
>>> sick just to use that crap.
>>>
>>> What about GNOME? I believe that Gentoo Live USBs used to
>>> offer a choice of DEs, including GNOME. IIRC, GNOME was
>>> equally puerile.
>>>
>>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>>> recess.
>>>
>>> Can there be any doubt that most people would just puke
>>> and return to Microslop Winblows?
>>>
>>> GNU/Linux is by far the superior OS, but one would never
>>> suspect when given the popular DE offerings.
>>>
>>> I use FVWM3 window manager and it is truly beautiful
>>> in its simplicity and functionality. The same can be
>>> said for OpenBox.
>>>
>>> But the popular DEs? They can only repel and not attract.
>>
>> xfce4 does the job for me.
>>
>> What do you want to do with fvwm that can't be done with
>> xfce?
>>
>> (I used to use fvwm...I think in the 90's?)
>
> Everyone has their sweet spot. I like xfce, but mine is fluxbox.
> One thing I don't like about xfce is that, when you move a window that is
> maximized vertically, it reverts to its original dimensions, and you have to
> maximize it again. The horror!

One neat tip with XFCE is that if you hold alt and right click drag, you
can resize a maximum window. You can pretty easily use that to move a
maximized window without it reverting.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 10:56:32 AM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:

> Okay, going with that analogy, I have an Advanced license. That doesn't
> exist anymore but if you had it you were grandfathered in. That required
> the ability to receive Morse code at 14 wpm, a skill as handy as being a
> wheelwright, but demanded by the government.
> '

We are deviating from the main theme, but the rationale for the Morse code
requirement was that in times of national emergencies, such as severe
hurricane or earthquake destruction (or how about nuclear war), local amateur
operators could be enlisted to ensure reliable communications. The value of
Morse code is that it can be discerned when conditions allow nothing else to get
through.

A "no-code" license would result in a flood of underqualified individuals.
The amateur radio bands are limited and it is best to keep clutter down.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:26:22 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> As a high-school junior, the math teachers started us on programming by
> handing us pencil-markable hollerith cards and having us build BASIC
> programs. Some actually started to understand what they were doing. For
> awhile I knew hollerith code by heart.

That was cruel. We had to write out the program on coding forms and then
go to the computer center to use the keypunches. After a day or two you'd
get the print out indicating you'd forgotten the continuation punch.

I'm not a great typist and there's no backspace on a card.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 04:36:37 +0000, Tyrone wrote:

> Exactly. Which explains why most Linux apps/GUIs/whatever look the way
> they do.

Or Windows/Mac apps for that matter. Consider that most GUIs started out
with skeuomorphic designs since that corresponded to the users' real world
experience. Then they tried flat design, Material Design, and so forth,
often circling back to the beginning.

The best skeuomorphic I've seen was at a Steve Earle concert. It was a
small venue and I was standing behind the sound guy. It was all digital
but the screen had a beautiful rendering of a traditional board right down
to shadows under the virtual toggle switches.

On 2024-02-14, RabidPedagog <rabid@pedag.og> wrote:
> On 2024-02-14 2:15 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-02-14, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
>>> On Feb 13, 2024 at 5:46:12 PM EST, "Farley Flud" <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>>>> recess.
>>>
>>> It is actually much worse than that. They are "designed" by programmers who
>>> don't have a clue about visual design.
>>
>> Really? Because Cinnamon looks a whole lot like Windows 10 and 11. And so
>> does Mate and Xfce the way Linux Mint sets it up.
>
> Windows 11 looks better than Cinnamon whereas Cinnamon looks better than
> 10. 10 has a clunky feel to it that no amount of updates can eradicate.
> Nevertheless, Cinnamon is a lot more responsive than either 11 or 10 can
> hope to be. A lot of people, myself included, would gladly sacrifice
> aesthetics for snappy behaviour.

I don't think Windows 11 is ugly, but I think Cinnamon looks better. But
this is a matter of personal taste.

>>> I have made this point before. Congratulations. You are beginning to see
>>> reality.
>>>
>>> I have been programming for over 30 years. Yes, professionally and get paid
>>> good money for it. It would never occur to me to attempt to design a screen.
>>> No Project Manager would even ASK me to do it. Someone else designs it. PMs DO
>>> want me to figure out the code and logic on the back end to do what is needed
>>> for the pretty screen front end.
>>>
>>> That's how it works in the real world. Good visual design is a VERY different
>>> skill set than good coding and logic.
>>>
>>>> Can there be any doubt that most people would just puke
>>>> and return to Microslop Winblows?
>>>
>>> This is why Windows and Macs are so successful. They look good because they
>>> employ actual professional designers and are easy to use for non computer
>>> nerds. Linux does neither.
>>
>> And Linux can look almost exactly like Windows or Mac OS when customized.
>
> Look like but not behave like. With the use of Flatpaks, Linux is
> getting close to the Mac in terms of simplicity for application
> installation and uninstallation since no remnants are left behind, but
> the Mac is still a lot more comprehensive. Since the very beginning, it
> was built to be as intuitive as possible and it is indeed as intuitive
> as possible. Don't want an app? Drag it to the trash. Want to add a
> picture to your e-mail? Drag it to the compose window. Want to add a
> logo to a document you're writing? Drag it to the document editor.
> Everyone has tried to imitate it and only partially succeeded. However,
> even if they managed to get it right, they have something else to figure
> out: how to make the imitator as power efficient and reliable as Macs
> generally are. I can _easily_ get over ten hours of battery life on the
> MacBook Air whereas compromises are necessary for a PC. Even if I
> managed to get ten hours on a PC, the battery will be larger and speed
> will be a fraction of what it was the moment I unplug the unit. With the
> Mac, there is no difference in performance when it is unplugged. If the
> PC can migrate to ARM and do it properly, they can offer something
> alluring to a customer who doesn't care about gaming. If not, Mac's
> market share will only grow.

You can do all the dragging stuff with Linux Mint also. Personally I don't
particularly like dragging files (except pictures into email, which works
fine in Thunderbird). For me it's easier just to right-click on an
application's icon and choose "uninstall" (as an example).

I have nothing against the Mac hardware. Just not a huge fan its desktop.

> Notice I haven't even mentioned how beautifully the Mac integrates with
> other Apple products. You won't be able to do anything as seamless with
> either Windows or Linux.

It tries to integrate my Mac Mini, MacBook Air and my old iPhone SE. I won't
let it. I like to decide what goes where. I want each device independent of
the other. (Not a fan of "The Borg.")

>>>> GNU/Linux is by far the superior OS
>>>
>>> Except that it is unusable due to the above. Not usable rules it out as
>>> "superior". Usability counts. MacOS is THE superior OS, being Unix AND looking
>>> good AND easy to use for non computer nerds.
>>
>> Strangely enough it's been quite usable by me for some 17-18 years. Maybe
>> some examples of why you think is "unusable?" Because I, personally think
>> the Cinnamon desktop is superior to both Windows and Mac OS.
>
> It's a fantastic desktop environment and gives Linux users something
> they won't need to constantly fight against to get work done. Cinnamon
> just gives the user a comprehensive experience whereas other desktop
> environments seem to want to cater to developers who adapt very easily
> to interface changes. Cinnamon is familiar and easy to understand,
> something that can't be said about Gnome or KDE if you put yourself in
> the shoes of an average user.

Agreed. Some people love Gnome and KDE. To me Gnome is just weird and KDE is
too "busy." Cinnamon (and Mate and Xfce — the way Linux Mint implements these)
are all pretty much the same.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-02-14, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
> On Feb 14, 2024 at 2:15:05 AM EST, "RonB" <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-14, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
>>> On Feb 13, 2024 at 5:46:12 PM EST, "Farley Flud" <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>>>> recess.
>>>
>>> It is actually much worse than that. They are "designed" by programmers who
>>> don't have a clue about visual design.
>>
>> Really? Because Cinnamon looks a whole lot like Windows 10 and 11. And so
>> does Mate and Xfce the way Linux Mint sets it up.
>
> So? Its very easy to copy the hard work of someone else. Which, after all, is
> really what Linux is all about. A cheap copy of various originals.

Who cares? I'm not talking how we got Cinnamon, I"m talking about how it
looks and works (better than Windows, BTW).

> The hard part is coming up with your own ORIGINAL design that looks good and
> is easy to use.

The whole point of Linux Mint is to be easy for Windows users to learn. The
desire to be different and "original" is way overrated in desktops in my
opinion. I just want to use the computer, I could care less if it's "unique"
or "artsy" or "on the edge." In my view that's where Gnome screwed up —
basically "we want to be different for the sake of being different." Like I
say, way overrated. A desktop should be there to let you get to your files
and applications and then get out of the way — not to be a work of art.

> If the best you can say about Linux is "It looks a whole lot like Windows 10
> and 11", that explains why it is a failure for desktop use. We already have
> Windows.

Not following you here. Since most people use Windows, shouldn't a Linux
desktop make it easy for Windows users to adopt to it? The fact you have
Windows (with all its baggage) is moot. Linux is superior for several
reasons. So if the desktop is familiar, all the better.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-02-14 11:00 a.m., DFS wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 4:08 AM, Joel wrote:
>> Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 04:37:55 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> All I can say is this: most popular versions of Microsoft Windows
>>>> present
>>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during recess.
>>>
>>> It's not the GUI that causes (or should cause) people to flee Microslop.
>>> It is the general nature of the OS itself, which is garbage.
>>>
>>> But the Microslop GUI is more professional in design than the
>>> GNU/Linux DEs,
>>> with the exception of it rigidity.  With M$ there are only two
>>> themes, light
>>> and dark, and both are annoying in the long term.
>>>
>>> GNU/Linux, however, offers more flexibility in being nearly infinitely
>>> configurable.  At least that used to be the case.  With GTK+3 we now see
>>> much greater GUI rigidity.
>>>
>>> That's why I use only WMs and stick with fvwm3.  It is based in the "old
>>> school" philosophy of offering an abundance of user control.
>>
>>
>> And you just converted millions to Linux, heh.  Your advocacy speaks
>> for itself ...
>
>
> 1 billion were permanently turned off Linux by cola nutjobs: you, Feeb,
> Rex Ballard, 7, shitv, Roy Spamowitz, etc.

I'm truly sorry I missed the Roy Schestowitz era. He sounds particularly
insane.

I wonder what Peter the Klöwn is doing nowadays. I'm sure it's something
with heated dirt.

--
RabidPedagog
Catholic paleoconservative

On 2024-02-14 11:25 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-02-14, RabidPedagog <rabid@pedag.og> wrote:
>> On 2024-02-14 2:15 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-02-14, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 13, 2024 at 5:46:12 PM EST, "Farley Flud" <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>>>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>>>>> recess.
>>>>
>>>> It is actually much worse than that. They are "designed" by programmers who
>>>> don't have a clue about visual design.
>>>
>>> Really? Because Cinnamon looks a whole lot like Windows 10 and 11. And so
>>> does Mate and Xfce the way Linux Mint sets it up.
>>
>> Windows 11 looks better than Cinnamon whereas Cinnamon looks better than
>> 10. 10 has a clunky feel to it that no amount of updates can eradicate.
>> Nevertheless, Cinnamon is a lot more responsive than either 11 or 10 can
>> hope to be. A lot of people, myself included, would gladly sacrifice
>> aesthetics for snappy behaviour.
>
> I don't think Windows 11 is ugly, but I think Cinnamon looks better. But
> this is a matter of personal taste.

Absolutely. The only reason I think Windows 11 has an advantage is
because its developer purposely set out to make it aesthetically
pleasing unlike the developers of Cinnamon. The latter ended up being
so, but I doubt it was their main objective.

>> Look like but not behave like. With the use of Flatpaks, Linux is
>> getting close to the Mac in terms of simplicity for application
>> installation and uninstallation since no remnants are left behind, but
>> the Mac is still a lot more comprehensive. Since the very beginning, it
>> was built to be as intuitive as possible and it is indeed as intuitive
>> as possible. Don't want an app? Drag it to the trash. Want to add a
>> picture to your e-mail? Drag it to the compose window. Want to add a
>> logo to a document you're writing? Drag it to the document editor.
>> Everyone has tried to imitate it and only partially succeeded. However,
>> even if they managed to get it right, they have something else to figure
>> out: how to make the imitator as power efficient and reliable as Macs
>> generally are. I can _easily_ get over ten hours of battery life on the
>> MacBook Air whereas compromises are necessary for a PC. Even if I
>> managed to get ten hours on a PC, the battery will be larger and speed
>> will be a fraction of what it was the moment I unplug the unit. With the
>> Mac, there is no difference in performance when it is unplugged. If the
>> PC can migrate to ARM and do it properly, they can offer something
>> alluring to a customer who doesn't care about gaming. If not, Mac's
>> market share will only grow.
>
> You can do all the dragging stuff with Linux Mint also. Personally I don't
> particularly like dragging files (except pictures into email, which works
> fine in Thunderbird). For me it's easier just to right-click on an
> application's icon and choose "uninstall" (as an example).
>
> I have nothing against the Mac hardware. Just not a huge fan its desktop.

I'm with you on that and don't see the advantage of
dragging-and-dropping a file. However, I recognize that it makes sense
for people who aren't interested in really understanding the inner
workings of their operating system. The Mac approach is a human one as
it relates to how it functions, but quite inhumane when it comes to
repairability. I doubt its devout care about that though. They probably
enjoy having an excuse to go out and buy another Mac.

>> Notice I haven't even mentioned how beautifully the Mac integrates with
>> other Apple products. You won't be able to do anything as seamless with
>> either Windows or Linux.
>
> It tries to integrate my Mac Mini, MacBook Air and my old iPhone SE. I won't
> let it. I like to decide what goes where. I want each device independent of
> the other. (Not a fan of "The Borg.")

I'll admit that it annoys me when I'm listening to something on my
iPhone and sound suddenly starts playing on a webpage on my MacBook Air,
causing the Airpods to disconnect from one and connect to the other.
It's technically convenient, but it can also be a nuisance.

>> It's a fantastic desktop environment and gives Linux users something
>> they won't need to constantly fight against to get work done. Cinnamon
>> just gives the user a comprehensive experience whereas other desktop
>> environments seem to want to cater to developers who adapt very easily
>> to interface changes. Cinnamon is familiar and easy to understand,
>> something that can't be said about Gnome or KDE if you put yourself in
>> the shoes of an average user.
>
> Agreed. Some people love Gnome and KDE. To me Gnome is just weird and KDE is
> too "busy." Cinnamon (and Mate and Xfce — the way Linux Mint implements these)
> are all pretty much the same.

I tried to like KDE but I just don't. To me, Gnome's interface is
actually rather intuitive and I would have enjoyed using something of
the sort even back in the 90s. Of course, I have a technical mind (even
though I don't do anything particularly technical) and I find things
like hot corners, a dock on the left-hand side and a list of all
applications in a single window to be quite facilitating.

--
RabidPedagog
Catholic paleoconservative

On 2/14/2024 3:58 AM, Farley Flud wrote:

> But the Microslop GUI is more professional in design than the GNU/Linux DEs,

MS finally did at least one thing right:

Settings | System has a list of options on the left, and when you click
one the available settings open in the right, in the same screen (no
additional dialog box opens that later has to be closed).

KDE was doing it right way back in 3.x (circa 2005), in their Control
Center app.

candycanearter07 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 2/14/24 08:37, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 22:46:12 +0000, Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote in
>>> <17b38d9927fae11c$85782$395177$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>:
>>>
>>>> Hey GNU/Linux aficionados! (Distro jockeys get lost.)
>>>>
>>>> Most people don't even know about desktop Linux, but the
>>>> few ones that do know don't seem too enthused.
>>>>
>>>> Why is this?
>>>>
>>>> Recently, I had a problem that required me to use a Linux
>>>> "rescue" USB. I used the Gentoo Live distro that contains
>>>> KDE Plasma as the DE.
>>>>
>>>> Oh my fucking God! KDE Plasma is droll to say the very
>>>> least. Plasma impresses me like the art work of elementary
>>>> school students who post their "creations" on the school
>>>> bulletin boards. It is puerile junk. It is almost laughable.
>>>>
>>>> Then there is System Rescue, another live USB, that contains
>>>> the XFCE DE. Again, pure juvenile garbage. It can make one
>>>> sick just to use that crap.
>>>>
>>>> What about GNOME? I believe that Gentoo Live USBs used to
>>>> offer a choice of DEs, including GNOME. IIRC, GNOME was
>>>> equally puerile.
>>>>
>>>> All I can say is this: Most popular GNU/Linux distros present
>>>> GUIs that appear to be designed by schoolchildren during
>>>> recess.
>>>>
>>>> Can there be any doubt that most people would just puke
>>>> and return to Microslop Winblows?
>>>>
>>>> GNU/Linux is by far the superior OS, but one would never
>>>> suspect when given the popular DE offerings.
>>>>
>>>> I use FVWM3 window manager and it is truly beautiful
>>>> in its simplicity and functionality. The same can be
>>>> said for OpenBox.
>>>>
>>>> But the popular DEs? They can only repel and not attract.
>>>
>>> xfce4 does the job for me.
>>>
>>> What do you want to do with fvwm that can't be done with
>>> xfce?
>>>
>>> (I used to use fvwm...I think in the 90's?)
>>
>> Everyone has their sweet spot. I like xfce, but mine is fluxbox.
>> One thing I don't like about xfce is that, when you move a window that is
>> maximized vertically, it reverts to its original dimensions, and you have to
>> maximize it again. The horror!
>
> One neat tip with XFCE is that if you hold alt and right click drag, you
> can resize a maximum window. You can pretty easily use that to move a
> maximized window without it reverting.

Fluxbox has that, too. Both it an xfce are very configurable.

Xcfe doesn't seem to handle wallpaper changes on dual screen, only the main
screen changes.

But I just map a Fluxbox key sequence to run "feh" to randomly select the next
wallpaper for all screens.

Mod4 z :ExecCommand /usr/bin/feh --no-fehbg --bg-scale --randomize
--recursive ~/.local/wallpapers/

--
Fame is a vapor; popularity an accident; the only earthly certainty is
oblivion.
-- Mark Twain