On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 17:04:57, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On 6/27/2021 2:34 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
[]
>> My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each
>>of my
>> systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.
>
>
>
>I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give it
>at try.
>
>
Some lighted keyboards just have illumination between/around the keys;
the best have it _through_ them, such that the letters are visible in
the dark.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never make the same mistake twice...there are so many new ones to make!

On 6/27/2021 5:22 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 17:04:57, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>On 6/27/2021 2:34 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> []
>>> My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each
>>>of my
>>> systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.
>>
>>
>>
>>I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give it
>>at try.
>>
>>
> Some lighted keyboards just have illumination between/around the keys;
> the best have it _through_ them, such that the letters are visible in
> the dark.

Since I never use my computer in the dark, that wouldn't matter to me.

--
Ken

In article <ijsjg0FjturU3@mid.individual.net>, Ken Blake
<ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

> >>> My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each
> >>>of my
> >>> systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.
> >>
> >>
> >>I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give it
> >>at try.
> >>
> >>
> > Some lighted keyboards just have illumination between/around the keys;
> > the best have it _through_ them, such that the letters are visible in
> > the dark.
>
>
> Since I never use my computer in the dark, that wouldn't matter to me.

it's useful in daytime too. quite a bit, actually.

In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/2021 4:50 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> > On 2021-06-27 6:23 p.m., J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> >> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:48:07, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
> >> responses usually follow points raised):
> >>> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> >>>
> >>> [snip]
> >>>
> >>>> CPU cooler is a must
> >>>
> >>> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this
> >>> year (AMD Ryzen 3700X).
> >>
> >> But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
> >> Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
> >> don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
> >> as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).
> >>>
> >>>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
> >>>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
> >>>
> >>> If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.
> >>
> >> I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
> >> didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
> >> learn!
> >> []
> >
> > Yes both Intel and AMD Have GPUs built into some of their CPUs that is
> > the Onboard graphics,

> Thanks for the clarification. I never knew that.

Yep. I didn't know that too until last month when I got one. Since video
cards are so crazy expensive, I was OK to use an onboard for now in
Intel Core i5-10400 Comet Lake 2.9GHz 6-Core LGA 1200 CPU (includes
Intel UHD 630 GPU). I am not computer gaming so...
--
The last baby bird left its nest as of 6/25/2021 at 10:13 AM PDT! :O Go L.A. Clippers! Beat those hot Suns! :P
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
....
> > Some CPUs include video,
> > however a lot don't.

> CPUs? I think you mean motherboards, not CPUs.

CPUs do like Intel Core i5-10400 Comet Lake 2.9GHz 6-Core LGA 1200 CPU
that includes Intel UHD 630 GPU which I have.
--
The last baby bird left its nest as of 6/25/2021 at 10:13 AM PDT! :O Go L.A. Clippers! Beat those hot Suns! :P
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 00:23:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:48:07, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
>responses usually follow points raised):
>>On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> CPU cooler is a must
>>
>>It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
>>(AMD Ryzen 3700X).
>
>But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
>Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
>don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
>as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).
>>
>>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
>>
>>If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.
>
>I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
>didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
>learn!
>[]

Many CPUs *provide* graphics.

Many motherboards *pass through* the graphics from the CPU, making it
available on a rear panel connector such as DisplayPort, HDMI, DVI, VGA,
etc.

No motherboards *provide* graphics, however. The most that they do is
simply take it from the CPU and make it available, as described above.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 17:29:52 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

>On 6/27/2021 5:22 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 17:04:57, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>>On 6/27/2021 2:34 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>> []
>>>> My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each
>>>>of my
>>>> systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give it
>>>at try.
>>>
>>>
>> Some lighted keyboards just have illumination between/around the keys;
>> the best have it _through_ them, such that the letters are visible in
>> the dark.
>
>
>Since I never use my computer in the dark, that wouldn't matter to me.

I use my computer in the dark about 2-3 times a year, but I'm thankful for
the lighted keyboard every day. Like John said, the keys need to be
backlit, where the light comes through the key rather than around it.
Another difference is in how the lights get turned on. The best is when the
keys light up at the first touch and stay on for a few seconds after the
last activity. I saw one Lenovo system where I was expected to manually
turn on the backlighting and then it just stayed on until I turned it off.
Inconvenient, but sometimes it's all you get.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:02:03 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

>On 6/27/2021 11:45 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On 6/26/21 5:54 PM, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> Sruti formulated the question :
>>>> On 26/06/2021 22:55, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
>>>>> somebody else assemble them.
>>>>
>>>> Is this what you need to build a computer?
>>>>
>>>> Case
>>>> CPU
>>>> Memory modules
>>>> Main board
>>>> HD Cables
>>>> Power unit
>>>> Hard disk
>>>> Thermal paste
>>>> Additional internal fans - optional
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything missing from the list?
>>>
>>> Neon lights?
>>>
>>> Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
>>> usage it will have.
>>
>> IIRC, main boards usually include audio.
>
>
>Yes.
>
>
>> Some CPUs include video,
>> however a lot don't.
>
>
>CPUs? I think you mean motherboards, not CPUs.

CPUs, not motherboards.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:03:24 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

>On 6/27/2021 11:48 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> CPU cooler is a must
>>
>> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
>> (AMD Ryzen 3700X).
>
>
>I don't know about AMD CPUs, but I've never seen it included with an
>Intel CPU.

AFAIK, an integrated GPU used to be included in almost all Intel CPUs but I
see that some 9th gen "F models" were marketed that either didn't have an
embedded GPU, or it was simply disabled. Interestingly, the following
article points out that Intel priced the same exact CPU, whether with or
without an embedded GPU, at exactly the same price. That's messed up.

Intel's new 9th Gen desktop CPUs ditch integrated GPUs without a price cut
By Kevin Lee January 09, 2019
<https://www.techradar.com/news/intels-new-9th-gen-desktop-cpus-ditch-their-integrated-gpus-to-take-on-amd>

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:15:48 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

>On 6/27/2021 12:40 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 09:22:17 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 6/26/2021 9:30 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:27:57 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
>>>>>them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
>>>>>non-standard keyboards.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but, is there anything easier to change than a keyboard? :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>No (and a much better keyboard would be very inexpensive), but there's
>>>nothing harder to do than convincing my wife that she should.
>>
>> That can be a significant hill to climb.
>>
>>>She also insists on using Microsoft Edge and Outlook.exe, so that
>>>whenever I go to her computer to help her with a problem (which is very
>>>often) I have trouble trying to figure how to do what she wants to do.
>>>
>>>She's good doing some things, but she's terrible with computers, and
>>>often asks me the same questions again and again. I use Quicken for all
>>>our financial record-keeping and a couple of years ago, she wanted to
>>>take that over from me. I absolutely refused to let her. It would have
>>>taken no time at all for her to royally screw it all up.
>>
>> Not to be morbid or anything, but I assume you've created notes of some
>> kind in case you exit stage left before her, leaving her to figure
>> everything out and carry on.
>
>
>She'll never figure it out. I've given all the information to our son,
>who is a computer professional.

That sounds like a plan.

>And by the way, she's been having some still-undiagnosed medical
>problems this year. I'm worried that she may die well before me.

I hope things work out!

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 00:39:16 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:52:41, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
>responses usually follow points raised):
>>On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> CPU fan (or water cooler)
>>> CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
>>
>>I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
>>very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.
>>
>>> SSD or NvME drive(s)
>>> Graphics Card (optional)
>>
>>Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
>>CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.
>>
>I think you'll find nowadays most motherboards now _do_ include a basic
>graphics "board" - it's sort of reached the stage audio did a few years
>ago (and before that, disc controllers and serial/parallel ports!).
>
>What may initially seem odd is that some _high end_ boards didn't - the
>assumption being that if someone was building a PC using a high-end
>motherboard, they wouldn't be happy with basic graphics, so would be
>adding a good graphics board of their own choice anyway. Though I've not
>seen a mobo without on-board graphics for some time - but I don't look
>at gaming motherboards, so such may still exist.

Do you have an example of a motherboard that provides graphics so I can see
how they do it? I've never seen or heard of such a thing.

What's common is to have a CPU provide graphics via an embedded GPU, like
most Intel CPUs and some AMD CPUs, but I'm wondering how a motherboard
would accomplish that.

On Jun 27, 2021 at 11:49:02 PM MST, "Char Jackson" wrote
<ouridghqlge1soim3614m03grm1mhthj3k@4ax.com>:

> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:03:24 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6/27/2021 11:48 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> CPU cooler is a must
>>>
>>> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
>>> (AMD Ryzen 3700X).
>>
>>
>> I don't know about AMD CPUs, but I've never seen it included with an
>> Intel CPU.
>
> AFAIK, an integrated GPU used to be included in almost all Intel CPUs but I
> see that some 9th gen "F models" were marketed that either didn't have an
> embedded GPU, or it was simply disabled. Interestingly, the following
> article points out that Intel priced the same exact CPU, whether with or
> without an embedded GPU, at exactly the same price. That's messed up.

Could be same process making it -- but the ones without the GPU had GPUs that
did not pass tests.

Still, that means defective -- sell it for less.

>
>
> Intel's new 9th Gen desktop CPUs ditch integrated GPUs without a price cut
> By Kevin Lee January 09, 2019
>
><https://www.techradar.com/news/intels-new-9th-gen-desktop-cpus-ditch-their-integrated-gpus-to-take-on-amd>

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:08:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 6/26/21 10:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
>>> think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
>>> the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
>>> so I chose that option.
>> AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
>> for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).
>
> From my motherboard manual:
>
> Installation Notices for the PCIEX4, M.2 and SATA Connectors:
> Due to the limited number of lanes provided by the Chipset, the
> availability of the SATA connectors may be affected by the type of device
> installed in the M2. sockets. The M2M connector shares bandwidth with the
> SATA3 4, 5 connectors. The M2A connector shares bandwidth with the SATA3
> 1; the M2P connector shares bandwidth with the PCIEX4 connector. Refer to
> the following tables for details.
>
> Then there's a table that essentially says the same thing.
>
> So the reason is, "Due to the limited number of lanes provided by the
> Chipset".
>

And these things can happen for product differentiation reasons.

You could start with one design for the "generation", turn off six
wires to make the "cheap" PCH, leave the six wires turned on for
the "expensive" PCH, leaving the impression Intel made a product
family. When all they did, was turn off shit to make a product family.

One of the larger demos of this, was LGA2011 or similar (the four
channels of memory, CPU family), where cheap CPU SKUs have 26 PCIe lanes and
expensive CPU SKUs have 44 PCIe lanes. For the cheap CPU, the lanes
are still there, but they're switched off.

Intel marketing people sit around all day, dreaming these
things up. Products that technically could support more
(the wires are there), but marketing has a config bit that
switches them off.

The "I/O starving of hardware" is a skill, that still exists
in the year 2021. It used to be done with egregiously bad
CPU busses (around year 2000 and later, using PCI bus
to connect the Northbridge to the Southbridge). They could
have used PCI64, but, they didn't. They could have used
PCI32 at 66MHz, but they didn't. One chipset had two PCI buses,
but, it was bugged, and the designers shipped it anyway :-/
Twits.

Paul

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:48:07, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
> responses usually follow points raised):
>> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> CPU cooler is a must
>>
>> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this
>> year (AMD Ryzen 3700X).
>
> But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
> Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
> don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
> as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).
>>
>>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
>>
>> If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.
>
> I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
> didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
> learn!
> []

AMD refers to their products as CPUs and "APUs".

The APU is a CPU and graphics, on a single die.

Intel can make a CPU with a single die inside it, and no GPU.
Or, it can make a CPU package with both a CPU die and a separate HD620 GPU die.
Desktop motherboards have been made, which accept both types,
and the end result, is the CPU without a GPU, the graphics connectors
on the back of the computer don't work :-) Neat.

A few users building their own computers, are "shocked"
when the HDMI/DP/VGA on the I/O plate doesn't work, then
they trace back and notice the CPU is one without the HD620 inside.

Intel has introduced devices which are CPU+GPU, then months
later starts making an identical SKU which is sans GPU and puts
an "F" on the end of the part number. 1234 is a CPU that doesn't
overclock. 1234K is a CPU which can be overclocked, but might
have a GPU inside. 1234KF is a CPU which overclocks if desired,
but the GPU is removed, so the graphics connectors on the IO plate
don't work.

Intel can be strapped for fab capacity. The CPU could be
made on 14nm, the GPU could be made on 22nm, the chipset
could be made on 45nm, and so on. These might involve
different fabs, with different wafer per year capacity.

When Intel "chased out" all the competing chipset makers,
it opened itself to managing its own demise. If Intel fouls
up the making of chipset support, then that stifles CPU
sales (eventually). If the GPU die happened to be hard to
make, then perhaps making SKUs without it included,
eases the shortage.

You need to do a lot of research, generation over generation,
to see all these twists and turns, as silly as they are.

There are enough chipset diagrams, I couldn't possibly do them
justice by redrawing them.

To me, the absolute best work, were Northbridges with a GPU
inside, where the GPU only burned two watts, and hardly
wasted any electricity at all. That to me was a winning design.
There have also been chipset designs at 20-25W that needed
a cooler with a fan fitted to the top. Anyone who has had
one of those fans burn out, will tell you what they think
of the designers for doing this :-/ There are also dummies
I will not name, who unscrewed the fan and threw it away,
and were then alarmed when the GPU cooked on them :-)
It takes all kinds sometimes... You would think more
people would have respect for the thermal design of others.
While lots of heatsinks are fitted as "decoratives"
or to hide the tech underneath, there are also lots
of them that are essential to product survival in the
long term.

Paul

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 6/27/2021 11:45 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On 6/26/21 5:54 PM, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> Sruti formulated the question :
>>>> On 26/06/2021 22:55, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and
>>>>> have somebody else assemble them.
>>>>
>>>> Is this what you need to build a computer?
>>>>
>>>> Case
>>>> CPU
>>>> Memory modules
>>>> Main board
>>>> HD Cables
>>>> Power unit
>>>> Hard disk
>>>> Thermal paste
>>>> Additional internal fans - optional
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything missing from the list?
>>>
>>> Neon lights?
>>>
>>> Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon
>>> what usage it will have.
>>
>> IIRC, main boards usually include audio.
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>> Some CPUs include video,
>> however a lot don't.
>
>
> CPUs? I think you mean motherboards, not CPUs.

AMD makes some devices it calls "APUs", which is a
CPU and GPU sharing the same piece of silicon.

Intel did not do this originally, because Intel
at the time, did not have the chops (silicon intellectual property)
to do it. Intel GPUs sucked at one time.

Intel still does not do APUs like AMD. Actually, I saw
a picture of one five minutes ago, but it's not really
an APU but more of a squashing together of two dies.

So Intel spins two silicon dies and put them in the CPU housing.
And it's been doing this for some number of years now.

This picture shows two silicon dies sharing a substrate.

https://en.wikichip.org/w/images/thumb/7/79/kaby_lake_r_%28front%29.png/300px-kaby_lake_r_%28front%29.png

And this is what it looks like when Intel squashes them
together, because at this point, Intel is now proud of
the progress it has made in GPU development.

https://en.wikichip.org/w/images/thumb/d/db/kaby_lake_r_die_shot_%28annotated%29.png/975px-kaby_lake_r_die_shot_%28annotated%29.png

*******

Doing the IO for graphics is "hard". Or so I'm told.

Currently, the Intel CPU+GPU, has no direct drive
for the wires that go to the I/O plate on the desktop.

Instead, the PCH (Southbridge) has a converter in it,
that converts from some digital bus on one side, to
HDMI/DP/VGA on the other.

HDMI and DP are digital, and the conversion process
is gear-grinding (parallel to serial conversion).

But VGA support was different. It used a DAC or
digital to analog converter, to make analog voltages
suited to a particular screen color. DAC development
stopped (stalled if you will) at around 400MHz of bandwidth.
Part of the problem, is the VGA connector is not a high
quality connector on the RGBHV signals, and too high
a resolution tends to suffer from reflections and
ghosting. They couldn't do 4K VGA, because the image
would suck (and you'd need more than a 400MHz DAC
to do it).

Making DACs is an "analog" technology. You need an emitter
follower amp after the table lookup perhaps. Maybe these
are best done in bipolar instead of CMOS.

In any case, the manufacturers have always gritted their
teeth when making VGA. So no matter where the VGA output
step occurs, it's a "risk item" for management. If the chip
comes back and the VGA didn't work, there would be words
exchanged at the plant :-)

This is why, the recent demise of VGA, signals the success
at all the angry bees at the plant, to remove the "risk item"
from the schedule. No longer do they live in fear of a VGA
failure on a chip design. The chip no longer has a designation
of "mixed analog/digital" and with VGA gone, the designation
is "digital".

If they wanted to , they could move the HDMI and DP drive,
back to the CPU+GPU die thingy. But, they probably won't.

Paul

Char Jackson wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 00:39:16 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:52:41, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
>> responses usually follow points raised):
>>> On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> CPU fan (or water cooler)
>>>> CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
>>> I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
>>> very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.
>>>
>>>> SSD or NvME drive(s)
>>>> Graphics Card (optional)
>>> Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
>>> CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.
>>>
>> I think you'll find nowadays most motherboards now _do_ include a basic
>> graphics "board" - it's sort of reached the stage audio did a few years
>> ago (and before that, disc controllers and serial/parallel ports!).
>>
>> What may initially seem odd is that some _high end_ boards didn't - the
>> assumption being that if someone was building a PC using a high-end
>> motherboard, they wouldn't be happy with basic graphics, so would be
>> adding a good graphics board of their own choice anyway. Though I've not
>> seen a mobo without on-board graphics for some time - but I don't look
>> at gaming motherboards, so such may still exist.
>
> Do you have an example of a motherboard that provides graphics so I can see
> how they do it? I've never seen or heard of such a thing.
>
> What's common is to have a CPU provide graphics via an embedded GPU, like
> most Intel CPUs and some AMD CPUs, but I'm wondering how a motherboard
> would accomplish that.
>

That's confusion around the FDI bus.

https://cdn.hw-lab.com/vendor/intel/h67/h67-block-diagram_p.png

A motherboard can have graphics connectors on it.

The signals come from the PCH.

But, if the CPU has nothing internally (no GPU) to drive
the FDI bus, then the PCH can't put anything on the graphics
connectors.

Motherboards don't have separate GPUs, unless they're in a
laptop, and doing something like Bumblebee/Prime (a hardware
name is Nvidia Optimus, don't know the AMD name). That's where
a separate outboard GPU (gamer class) DMA transfers frame
buffer images to memory, and the internal GPU reads out
the buffers of data and drives the HDMI/DP/VGA with the result.
The graphics output lines on the two GPUs are not joined by
wire-OR at the IO level, and there is a virtual ORing done
using frame buffer memory.

I'm also finding, that the FDI bus didn't exist for all
that long, and Intel resorted to driving out signals
from the CPU after a while. The same symptoms could be
seen (using a CPU with no GPU causes no drive on HDMI/DP
connectors on motherboard), but the source of the no-signal
situation is then the CPU package itself.

*******

One of the reasons I tell people building their own
computers to "allocate a month for planning", is precisely
for this level of detail. You have to read a lot of backgrounders,
to get every detail right on a build today. The flexibility
afforded by modern silicon design, plus the insistence on
changing the interface every year, means you have generation
after generation after generation, of details to sort out.
They keep moving the hardware deck chairs. Same shit,
different pins.

Paul

Ken Blake wrote:
> On 6/27/2021 5:22 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 17:04:57, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> On 6/27/2021 2:34 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>> []
>>>> My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each
>>>> of my
>>>> systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a
>>>> must-have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give
>>> it at try.
>>>
>>>
>> Some lighted keyboards just have illumination between/around the keys;
>> the best have it _through_ them, such that the letters are visible in
>> the dark.
>
> Since I never use my computer in the dark, that wouldn't matter to me.

Good keyboards in the past, used double-shot keys with good
color contrast between the embedded letter and the surrounding
contrast color. (No, you can't see them in a completely dark room.)

It's funny, that keyboard manufacturers in the past, *hated*
double shot keys (embed plastic within plastic). They liked
(somewhat kooky) "stickers" place on plain plastic keys.
But that was part of hitting a retail $20 price point.
The worst offenders used stickers. Others printed plastic
ink letters onto plain keys, which wore off after a year or
so.

Today, we can start with poor color/contrast choices for
the base plastic, double-shot the key with a transparent
plastic, then shine a LED through it, to get the
contrast ratio we used to have. This allows a
contrast ratio in a lit room or a dark room. And
it all hits a price point of $100, instead of $20.

That's the difference, the price point.

It's "how we separate ourself from the Chinese". So to speak.
One company started this, because the competition at the
low end, low price was winning over design qualities,
so they had to shoot for a different price tier. And
a side effect of that, is an explosion of overkill-in-design.

If you'd seen a recent exploded view picture of a
key switch, you'd think they were insane. So many
little piece parts, metal clips and shit. And all
to make a key we used to make with a membrane and
"almost no moving parts at all".

Paul

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 03:55:59, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>Intel marketing people sit around all day, dreaming these
>things up. Products that technically could support more
>(the wires are there), but marketing has a config bit that
>switches them off.
[]
Weird. I could understand turning off sections that fail at the
probe-testing stage during manufacture (say the CPU part works but the
GPU part doesn't); are you sure that isn't what they're doing? Actually
going to the full expense of making the full chip, then deliberately
disabling parts of it to be able to offer a cheaper part (or even not
cheaper!) seems very odd.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Does God believe in people?

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 00:07:47, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>Many CPUs *provide* graphics.
>
>Many motherboards *pass through* the graphics from the CPU, making it
>available on a rear panel connector such as DisplayPort, HDMI, DVI, VGA,
>etc.

I didn't realise this! You live and learn.
>
>No motherboards *provide* graphics, however. The most that they do is
>simply take it from the CPU and make it available, as described above.
>
I'll take your word for it. I'm sure there _were_ "on-board graphics"
motherboards in the past, but that might have been back in the dark days
before there was a separate GPU at all. I remember it being said that it
impacted performance considerably because the graphics memory was
addressed over the same bus as the main memory (and one PC I built for
my brother didn't suffer in this way because it had dedicated graphics
memory on the board that was connected by a separate bus), but those do
suggest it was pre-GPU.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Does God believe in people?

On 2021-06-28 12:07 a.m., Char Jackson wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 00:23:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:48:07, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
>> responses usually follow points raised):
>>> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> CPU cooler is a must
>>>
>>> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
>>> (AMD Ryzen 3700X).
>>
>> But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
>> Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
>> don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
>> as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).
>>>
>>>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>>>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
>>>
>>> If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.
>>
>> I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
>> didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
>> learn!
>> []
>
> Many CPUs *provide* graphics.
>
> Many motherboards *pass through* the graphics from the CPU, making it
> available on a rear panel connector such as DisplayPort, HDMI, DVI, VGA,
> etc.
>
> No motherboards *provide* graphics, however. The most that they do is
> simply take it from the CPU and make it available, as described above.
>

*Exactly*.

Rene

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 06:32:33, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
>Ken Blake wrote:
[]
>> Since I never use my computer in the dark, that wouldn't matter to
>>me.

(I don't often operate in the dark, but dim light not infrequently.)
>
>Good keyboards in the past, used double-shot keys with good
>color contrast between the embedded letter and the surrounding
>contrast color. (No, you can't see them in a completely dark room.)
>
>It's funny, that keyboard manufacturers in the past, *hated*
>double shot keys (embed plastic within plastic). They liked
>(somewhat kooky) "stickers" place on plain plastic keys.

IMO a major part of the problem - regardless of the technology
(double-shot or sticker) - is that form over function won: someone
decided it looked more "stylish" (or something) if they wasted the
majority of the keytop space, and just printed (or whatever) a tiny
symbol in the top left of the key - using mostly well under half of the
space available vertically, and often only a third horizontally. If
they'd just used most of the space available (and thicker - "bold" -
font), much of the problem of visibility in low light would not exist.

(You can get sheets of stickers, often marketed as for the visually
impaired/handicapped, which do solve the problem - but despite claims of
universality, they're too big for laptop keyboards [and I suspect some
full-size keyboards with tapered keys] - at least, if anyone knows of
ones for laptops, please share.)

>But that was part of hitting a retail $20 price point.
>The worst offenders used stickers. Others printed plastic
>ink letters onto plain keys, which wore off after a year or
>so.
>
>Today, we can start with poor color/contrast choices for
>the base plastic, double-shot the key with a transparent
>plastic, then shine a LED through it, to get the
>contrast ratio we used to have. This allows a
>contrast ratio in a lit room or a dark room. And
>it all hits a price point of $100, instead of $20.
>
>That's the difference, the price point.
>
>It's "how we separate ourself from the Chinese". So to speak.
>One company started this, because the competition at the
>low end, low price was winning over design qualities,
>so they had to shoot for a different price tier. And
>a side effect of that, is an explosion of overkill-in-design.

Indeed. When I've looked at illuminated keyboards, they've all included
features (such as changing colours!) I don't want; this has made me feel
they contribute to them being overpriced, though it could be that the
intrinsic cost of double-shotting (I'm ignoring the ones that only light
around and not through the keys: I imagine that actually makes them
_harder_ to use in low light!) pushes the price up anyway, and they add
gimmicks to try to justify that price.
>
>If you'd seen a recent exploded view picture of a
>key switch, you'd think they were insane. So many
>little piece parts, metal clips and shit. And all
>to make a key we used to make with a membrane and
>"almost no moving parts at all".
>
> Paul
Probably didn't survive gamers' hammering, or respond fast enough (or
perhaps consistently enough) for rapid touch-typists. Those of us who
aren't either gamers or rapid typists are thus paying for something we
don't need/want. (And getting something with lots of little bits that
can get lost too.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Does God believe in people?

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:Rm5kCIqZFd2gFw7c@255soft.uk...
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 06:32:33, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my
> responses usually follow points raised):
>>Ken Blake wrote:
> []
>>> Since I never use my computer in the dark, that wouldn't matter to me.
>
> (I don't often operate in the dark, but dim light not infrequently.)
>>
>>Good keyboards in the past, used double-shot keys with good
>>color contrast between the embedded letter and the surrounding
>>contrast color. (No, you can't see them in a completely dark room.)

My new laptop suffers from using a rather square typeface for the letters,
which causes a bit of confusion in dim light. Although the keys have
translucent letters and LED lighting, it is designed (form over function!)
to illuminate the area *between* the keys as well as the letters on the
keys.

It also has the backslash key on a key below the right shift key, rather
than the normal position between left shift and Z. I always have to stop and
think where to find \.

Not as bad as the keyboard I used the other day at a customer's house:
normal UK layout (with \ to left of Z), but with Ctrl and Alt keys
interchanged. When selecting and copy/cut/pasting files, you tend to use
Ctrl-click and Ctrl-C/X/V rather a lot. It took me a long time to unlearn
the position of the Ctrl key that I was used to.

On 2021-06-28 2:00 a.m., Char Jackson wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 00:39:16 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:52:41, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
>> responses usually follow points raised):
>>> On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> CPU fan (or water cooler)
>>>> CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
>>>
>>> I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
>>> very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.
>>>
>>>> SSD or NvME drive(s)
>>>> Graphics Card (optional)
>>>
>>> Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
>>> CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.
>>>
>> I think you'll find nowadays most motherboards now _do_ include a basic
>> graphics "board" - it's sort of reached the stage audio did a few years
>> ago (and before that, disc controllers and serial/parallel ports!).
>>
>> What may initially seem odd is that some _high end_ boards didn't - the
>> assumption being that if someone was building a PC using a high-end
>> motherboard, they wouldn't be happy with basic graphics, so would be
>> adding a good graphics board of their own choice anyway. Though I've not
>> seen a mobo without on-board graphics for some time - but I don't look
>> at gaming motherboards, so such may still exist.
>
> Do you have an example of a motherboard that provides graphics so I can see
> how they do it? I've never seen or heard of such a thing.
>
> What's common is to have a CPU provide graphics via an embedded GPU, like
> most Intel CPUs and some AMD CPUs, but I'm wondering how a motherboard
> would accomplish that.
>

JP mus be living way in the past, maybe he's thinking 40 years ago,
when the Apple II did indeed have graphics built on the motherboard!!!

Rene

On 6/27/2021 11:42 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:02:03 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6/27/2021 11:45 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>> On 6/26/21 5:54 PM, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> Sruti formulated the question :
>>>>> On 26/06/2021 22:55, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
>>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
>>>>>> somebody else assemble them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this what you need to build a computer?
>>>>>
>>>>> Case
>>>>> CPU
>>>>> Memory modules
>>>>> Main board
>>>>> HD Cables
>>>>> Power unit
>>>>> Hard disk
>>>>> Thermal paste
>>>>> Additional internal fans - optional
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything missing from the list?
>>>>
>>>> Neon lights?
>>>>
>>>> Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
>>>> usage it will have.
>>>
>>> IIRC, main boards usually include audio.
>>
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>
>>> Some CPUs include video,
>>> however a lot don't.
>>
>>
>>CPUs? I think you mean motherboards, not CPUs.
>
> CPUs, not motherboards.

Yes, you and others made this clear. I was wrong.

--
Ken

On 6/27/2021 10:30 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 17:29:52 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6/27/2021 5:22 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 17:04:57, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote
>>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>>>On 6/27/2021 2:34 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>> []
>>>>> My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each
>>>>>of my
>>>>> systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give it
>>>>at try.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Some lighted keyboards just have illumination between/around the keys;
>>> the best have it _through_ them, such that the letters are visible in
>>> the dark.
>>
>>
>>Since I never use my computer in the dark, that wouldn't matter to me.
>
> I use my computer in the dark about 2-3 times a year, but I'm thankful for
> the lighted keyboard every day.

Can you make it clearer as to what the advantage of a lighted keyboard is?

> Like John said, the keys need to be
> backlit, where the light comes through the key rather than around it.
> Another difference is in how the lights get turned on. The best is when the
> keys light up at the first touch and stay on for a few seconds after the
> last activity. I saw one Lenovo system where I was expected to manually
> turn on the backlighting and then it just stayed on until I turned it off.
> Inconvenient, but sometimes it's all you get.
>

--
Ken