On 2021-06-27 2:08 p.m., Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 6/26/21 10:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
>> think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port,
>> and
>> the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe
>> slot,
>> so I chose that option.
>
> AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
> for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).
>
>
Yes, quite common , NVMe can and will disable Sata ports, Says so in the
manual sand it on both my last builds with NVMe drives/

Rene

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:52:41 -0500, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote:

>On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> CPU fan (or water cooler)
>> CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
>
>I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
>very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.

I think I was an early adopter of getting rid of floppy drives and all
optical drives. I still have a CD/DVD-R drive in a drawer somewhere,
intended to be mounted internally, but using life events as a time gauge, I
probably haven't dragged it out since about 2010-2011. At this point, I
probably never will. I also have a few packages of unused CD-Rs and DVD-Rs
but those, too, must be well over a decade old and may not be in good shape
anymore.

>> SSD or NvME drive(s)
>> Graphics Card (optional)
>
>Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
>CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.

When I was building my latest system, a few of the AMD CPUs included
onboard graphics but all of the Intel CPUs that I was considering had that
feature. I don't think I've seen or heard of a motherboard that didn't have
one or more graphics ports of some kind, whether it was VGA, HDMI,
DisplayPort, etc.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:52:34 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>Do you remember the Capacitor Plague ?

I do, but the problem with telling that kind of story is that people who
are reading casually might think that there's still a 'capacitor plague' or
that it affected one PC maker more than others. Both of those premises are
essentially false.

<snip>

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 09:22:17 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

>On 6/26/2021 9:30 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:27:57 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
>>>them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
>>>non-standard keyboards.
>>
>> Yes, but, is there anything easier to change than a keyboard? :-)
>
>
>
>No (and a much better keyboard would be very inexpensive), but there's
>nothing harder to do than convincing my wife that she should.

That can be a significant hill to climb.

>She also insists on using Microsoft Edge and Outlook.exe, so that
>whenever I go to her computer to help her with a problem (which is very
>often) I have trouble trying to figure how to do what she wants to do.
>
>She's good doing some things, but she's terrible with computers, and
>often asks me the same questions again and again. I use Quicken for all
>our financial record-keeping and a couple of years ago, she wanted to
>take that over from me. I absolutely refused to let her. It would have
>taken no time at all for her to royally screw it all up.

Not to be morbid or anything, but I assume you've created notes of some
kind in case you exit stage left before her, leaving her to figure
everything out and carry on.

At my house, I take care of the recurring bills and the annual taxes, while
my wife handles the investments. We talk frequently, and I think each of us
could very easily take over from the other if we had to.

Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 6/26/21 10:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
>> think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port,
>> and
>> the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe
>> slot,
>> so I chose that option.
>
> AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
> for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).

That's the flex chipset at work.

Electrical signals on the chipset, now have multiple definitions.

This is similar to embedded or SOC tech, where an electrical
signal can have four definitions, and they're programmable.

It's the job of the engineer, to select electrical signals
and assign functions. And let me tell you, that job *sucks*,
especially if you have no guidance from the manufacturer.
You can sit there for hours, scratching your head and saying
"what exactly were they thinking, and what am I missing?".

In some cases, you can wire two peripherals on the motherboard,
to a single set of signals. Maybe this requires a re-driver for
SI reasons. The signal can run to a SATA connector (diff pair
for TX+- and RX+-), but the signals could also be used
as a PCI Express lane x1 (TX pair and RX pair for bidir PCIe)
or as USB3 pins. Since a lot of these diff technologies
are low amplitude, a lot of reuse is possible.

When you crack the manual on an enthusiast board, the manual
is "full of rules". It helps to examine the block diagram
of the motherboard first, but the resolution may not be
there to address this sort of reuse.

However, if you did your homework, for example, visited
Anandtech and saw their "review of Z97", then there can
be a diagram in there with the "flex diagram" and a table.
That will help a neophyte get the hang of how flex works.

This is different than OEM machines, where for the most part
an OEM sticks with a single electrical definition. This reduced support
costs from "stupid phone calls". Since OEM machines are not
properly documented (no BIOS manual), this is pretty clever
of them to not attempt options of any complexity.

I didn't get it at first either, but after a couple of
those chipset review articles, you could see the progression
from one chipset to the next.

Paul

"Char Jackson" wrote:
> Many years ago, after hearing that malware was being found that was
> looking for hardcoded paths such as C:\Windows\system32, I built a
> system where my Windows volume was D:. After that was up and running, I
> cloned it to a second volume that I called C:, which I never booted
> into. If malware came along and wanted to drop something into a
> directory on C:, it was free to do that but it would never get executed.

My first NT based Win was Win2k and I installed it on D:\winnt\ to
dual boot alongside a DOS partition which I wanted to keep as C:.
I later created fake "Windows" directories on C: for the benefit of
malware. There were a few that used hard-coded paths but not the
majority, IME.

On 2021-06-27 3:58 p.m., Paul wrote:
> Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On 6/26/21 10:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine
>>> print. I
>>> think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA
>>> port, and
>>> the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe
>>> slot,
>>> so I chose that option.
>>
>> AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not
>> be for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).
>
> That's the flex chipset at work.
>
> Electrical signals on the chipset, now have multiple definitions.
>
> This is similar to embedded or SOC tech, where an electrical
> signal can have four definitions, and they're programmable.
>
> It's the job of the engineer, to select electrical signals
> and assign functions. And let me tell you, that job *sucks*,
> especially if you have no guidance from the manufacturer.
> You can sit there for hours, scratching your head and saying
> "what exactly were they thinking, and what am I missing?".
>
> In some cases, you can wire two peripherals on the motherboard,
> to a single set of signals. Maybe this requires a re-driver for
> SI reasons. The signal can run to a SATA connector (diff pair
> for TX+- and RX+-), but the signals could also be used
> as a PCI Express lane x1 (TX pair and RX pair for bidir PCIe)
> or as USB3 pins. Since a lot of these diff technologies
> are low amplitude, a lot of reuse is possible.
>
> When you crack the manual on an enthusiast board, the manual
> is "full of rules". It helps to examine the block diagram
> of the motherboard first, but the resolution may not be
> there to address this sort of reuse.
>
> However, if you did your homework, for example, visited
> Anandtech and saw their "review of Z97", then there can
> be a diagram in there with the "flex diagram" and a table.
> That will help a neophyte get the hang of how flex works.
>
> This is different than OEM machines, where for the most part
> an OEM sticks with a single electrical definition. This reduced support
> costs from "stupid phone calls". Since OEM machines are not
> properly documented (no BIOS manual), this is pretty clever
> of them to not attempt options of any complexity.
>
> I didn't get it at first either, but after a couple of
> those chipset review articles, you could see the progression
> from one chipset to the next.
>
>    Paul

Yes it's in both my Asus manuals, it gives options and tells which Sata
port will be affected, It still pays to *RTFM*

I just ran the whynotwin11.exe on this AMD 5 3400G rig and got 11 green
OKs out of 11, I haven't checked my sons i7 8700 yet but should be OK.

Rene

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:08:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote:

>On 6/26/21 10:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
>> think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
>> the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
>> so I chose that option.
>
>AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
>for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).

From my motherboard manual:

Installation Notices for the PCIEX4, M.2 and SATA Connectors:
Due to the limited number of lanes provided by the Chipset, the
availability of the SATA connectors may be affected by the type of device
installed in the M2. sockets. The M2M connector shares bandwidth with the
SATA3 4, 5 connectors. The M2A connector shares bandwidth with the SATA3
1; the M2P connector shares bandwidth with the PCIEX4 connector. Refer to
the following tables for details.

Then there's a table that essentially says the same thing.

So the reason is, "Due to the limited number of lanes provided by the
Chipset".

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:13:03 -0500, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote:

>On 6/26/21 10:19 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> My system came with non-illuminated keys so I never really used it
>> except as a temporary backup. I now use backlit keyboards. My current
>> one is a Logitech K800 which has a great feel to it, at least for my
>> liking.
>
>When ordering my latest laptop, I decided on a backlit keyboard. That
>has been a good decision.
>
>Fn-SPACE turns on the white LEDs.

My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each of my
systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.

Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:52:34 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Do you remember the Capacitor Plague ?
>
> I do, but the problem with telling that kind of story is that people who
> are reading casually might think that there's still a 'capacitor plague' or
> that it affected one PC maker more than others. Both of those premises are
> essentially false.
>
> <snip>
>

That's why the sentence begins "do you remember",
as in the past tense.

Checking the tops of caps, remains a debug step.
Especially if you've seen a puff of gray smoke
go out the back of a desktop at start.

Paul

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 22:08:39 +0100, "Apd" <not@all.invalid> wrote:

>"Char Jackson" wrote:
>> Many years ago, after hearing that malware was being found that was
>> looking for hardcoded paths such as C:\Windows\system32, I built a
>> system where my Windows volume was D:. After that was up and running, I
>> cloned it to a second volume that I called C:, which I never booted
>> into. If malware came along and wanted to drop something into a
>> directory on C:, it was free to do that but it would never get executed.
>
>My first NT based Win was Win2k and I installed it on D:\winnt\ to
>dual boot alongside a DOS partition which I wanted to keep as C:.
>I later created fake "Windows" directories on C: for the benefit of
>malware. There were a few that used hard-coded paths but not the
>majority, IME.

Nice. Thank you, sir. I see that I wasn't the only one.

On 6/27/2021 11:45 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 6/26/21 5:54 PM, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> Sruti formulated the question :
>>> On 26/06/2021 22:55, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
>>>> two reasons:
>>>>
>>>> 1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
>>>>
>>>> 2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
>>>> somebody else assemble them.
>>>
>>> Is this what you need to build a computer?
>>>
>>> Case
>>> CPU
>>> Memory modules
>>> Main board
>>> HD Cables
>>> Power unit
>>> Hard disk
>>> Thermal paste
>>> Additional internal fans - optional
>>>
>>> Is there anything missing from the list?
>>
>> Neon lights?
>>
>> Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
>> usage it will have.
>
> IIRC, main boards usually include audio.

Yes.

> Some CPUs include video,
> however a lot don't.

CPUs? I think you mean motherboards, not CPUs.

> One thing I like to include is a memory (like SD) card reader that fits
> in the 3.5-inch bay.
>
> However, one little thing my last main board didn't include was a little
> system speaker - needed to hear the startup and any error beeps.
> https://www.amazon.com/Motherboard-Speaker-Desktop-Computer-Internal/dp/B079DKDSJ9/
>

--
Ken

On 6/27/2021 11:48 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> CPU cooler is a must
>
> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
> (AMD Ryzen 3700X).

I don't know about AMD CPUs, but I've never seen it included with an
Intel CPU.

>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
>
> If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.
>
>> No need for sound card, onboard sound is  good
>>
>> Accessories, Keyboard, Mouse   Speakers and a good monitor
>> If you have some good parts on hand use them to cut cost.
>>
>> Rene
>
>

--
Ken

On 6/27/2021 11:52 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> CPU fan (or water cooler)
>> CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
>
> I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
> very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.

I have a separate USB-connected one, but I still prefer to have one
built-in. They're very inexpensive.

>> SSD or NvME drive(s)
>> Graphics Card (optional)
>
> Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
> CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.

I don't think any CPU does, and in my experience, most motherboards do.

--
Ken

On 6/27/2021 11:57 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 6/26/21 6:42 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> [snp]
>
>>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>>
>> Yes. Not a  must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
>> buy a SSD anymore.
>
> NVMe speed depends on PCIe speed. For the fastest, you need a CPU that
> supports PCIe 4. It'll still work on PCIe 3, but will be slower (but
> still a lot faster than a SATA drive).
>
> Also, note that drive letters (like C:) are a function of Windows, and
> have nothing to do with the drive itself.

Yes, of course. I know that. My point was that I wanted an NVMe drive
to use for the WIndows C: drive.

--
Ken

On 6/27/2021 12:40 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 09:22:17 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6/26/2021 9:30 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:27:57 -0700, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
>>>>them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
>>>>non-standard keyboards.
>>>
>>> Yes, but, is there anything easier to change than a keyboard? :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>No (and a much better keyboard would be very inexpensive), but there's
>>nothing harder to do than convincing my wife that she should.
>
> That can be a significant hill to climb.
>
>>She also insists on using Microsoft Edge and Outlook.exe, so that
>>whenever I go to her computer to help her with a problem (which is very
>>often) I have trouble trying to figure how to do what she wants to do.
>>
>>She's good doing some things, but she's terrible with computers, and
>>often asks me the same questions again and again. I use Quicken for all
>>our financial record-keeping and a couple of years ago, she wanted to
>>take that over from me. I absolutely refused to let her. It would have
>>taken no time at all for her to royally screw it all up.
>
> Not to be morbid or anything, but I assume you've created notes of some
> kind in case you exit stage left before her, leaving her to figure
> everything out and carry on.

She'll never figure it out. I've given all the information to our son,
who is a computer professional.

And by the way, she's been having some still-undiagnosed medical
problems this year. I'm worried that she may die well before me.

>
> At my house, I take care of the recurring bills and the annual taxes, while
> my wife handles the investments. We talk frequently, and I think each of us
> could very easily take over from the other if we had to.

Great!

--
Ken

Rene Lamontagne graced us with on 6/27/2021 7:43 AM:
> On 2021-06-26 10:29 p.m., Sailfish wrote:
>> Rene Lamontagne graced us with on 6/26/2021 3:05 PM:
>>> On 2021-06-26 4:55 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On 6/26/2021 2:37 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>> Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
>>>>>> with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell
>>>>>> makes non-standard keyboards.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
>>>>> don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
>>>>> corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
>>>>> reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
>>>> two reasons:
>>>>
>>>> 1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
>>>>
>>>> 2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
>>>> somebody else assemble them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
>>> fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
>>> hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But
>>> What can you expect at 87 years old. :-)
>>>
>> You put this 72 yr old youngster to shame.
>>
>
> I am lucky to have a really retentive memory, I remember much of my
> growing up years from about 3 years old, I was reading school books at 4
> years old.
>
+5

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Ken Blake graced us with on 6/27/2021 9:11 AM:
> On 6/27/2021 7:43 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> On 2021-06-26 10:29 p.m., Sailfish wrote:
>>> Rene Lamontagne graced us with on 6/26/2021 3:05 PM:
>>>> On 2021-06-26 4:55 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 6/26/2021 2:37 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>>> Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of
>>>>>>> problems with them, but because of their design. I don't know why
>>>>>>> Dell makes non-standard keyboards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
>>>>>> don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
>>>>>> corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
>>>>>> reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and
>>>>> have somebody else assemble them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I,
>>>> My fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it
>>>> kind of hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2
>>>> builds,But What can you expect at 87 years old. :-)
>>>>
>>> You put this 72 yr old youngster to shame.
>>>
>>
>> I am lucky to have a really retentive memory,
>
> My memory is retentive for some things, but not others. For example, I
> can still remember Chess games and opening lines I learned around 65
> years ago.
>
> If I were too play a game now, I would be nowhere near as good as I used
> to be, but I would still be well above average.
>
Regrettably, I was never even approached to average; though, the game
always intrigued me.
>
>> I remember much of my
>> growing up years from about 3 years old,
>
> I remember almost nothing from that early an age.
>
My earliest connection has always been when I was an infant playing with
a truck but nothing after until several years later.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

On 2021-06-27 5:05 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 6/27/2021 11:52 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> CPU fan (or water cooler)
>>> CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
>>
>> I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
>> very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.
>
>
> I have a separate USB-connected one, but I still prefer to have one
> built-in. They're very inexpensive.
>
>
>
>>> SSD or NvME drive(s)
>>> Graphics Card (optional)
>>
>> Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
>> CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.
>
>
> I don't think any CPU does, and in my experience, most motherboards do.
>
>

Many Intel CPU,s have onboard graphics using the IntelUHD630 set, AMD
make it easier, their CPUs With onboard graphics end with a G example '5
3400G' using the Vega 8 or 11 set.
Most of the better MBs now have onboard graphics capability with an HDMI
or DIsplayport socket.

Rene

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:48:07, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
>On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> CPU cooler is a must
>
>It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
>(AMD Ryzen 3700X).

But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).
>
>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
>
>If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.

I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
learn!
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The desire to remain private and/or anonymous used to be a core British value,
but in recent times it has been treated with suspicion - an unfortunate by-
product of the widespread desire for fame. - Chris Middleton,
Computing 6 September 2011

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:45:20, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>However, one little thing my last main board didn't include was a
>little system speaker - needed to hear the startup and any error beeps.
>https://www.amazon.com/Motherboard-Speaker-Desktop-Computer-Internal/dp/
>B079DKDSJ9/
>
I wouldn't expect the little speaker to come with the motherboard - more
with the case, or as a standalone item (probably salvaged from an old
case). I have seen little piezo sounders attached to the standard
speaker connector, and could imagine one of _those_ being supplied with
the mobo - just sort of hanging over the mobo by the stiffness of the
wires, as they're so light, rather than actually being mounted/fixed to
the case.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The desire to remain private and/or anonymous used to be a core British value,
but in recent times it has been treated with suspicion - an unfortunate by-
product of the widespread desire for fame. - Chris Middleton,
Computing 6 September 2011

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:52:41, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
>On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> CPU fan (or water cooler)
>> CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
>
>I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
>very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.
>
>> SSD or NvME drive(s)
>> Graphics Card (optional)
>
>Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
>CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.
>
I think you'll find nowadays most motherboards now _do_ include a basic
graphics "board" - it's sort of reached the stage audio did a few years
ago (and before that, disc controllers and serial/parallel ports!).

What may initially seem odd is that some _high end_ boards didn't - the
assumption being that if someone was building a PC using a high-end
motherboard, they wouldn't be happy with basic graphics, so would be
adding a good graphics board of their own choice anyway. Though I've not
seen a mobo without on-board graphics for some time - but I don't look
at gaming motherboards, so such may still exist.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The desire to remain private and/or anonymous used to be a core British value,
but in recent times it has been treated with suspicion - an unfortunate by-
product of the widespread desire for fame. - Chris Middleton,
Computing 6 September 2011

On 2021-06-27 6:23 p.m., J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:48:07, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
> responses usually follow points raised):
>> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> CPU cooler is a must
>>
>> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this
>> year (AMD Ryzen 3700X).
>
> But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
> Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
> don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
> as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).
>>
>>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
>>
>> If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.
>
> I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
> didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
> learn!
> []

Yes both Intel and AMD Have GPUs built into some of their CPUs that is
the Onboard graphics, The motherboard must be able to support these CPUs
and have either an HDMI or Displayport socket.

As an example my sons rig has an Intel i7 8700 CPU with Intel UHD 630
graphics.
My unit has an AMD 5 3400G CPU using Vega 11 graphics. the G denote
built in GPU.

Rene

On 6/27/2021 2:34 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:13:03 -0500, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 6/26/21 10:19 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> My system came with non-illuminated keys so I never really used it
>>> except as a temporary backup. I now use backlit keyboards. My current
>>> one is a Logitech K800 which has a great feel to it, at least for my
>>> liking.
>>
>>When ordering my latest laptop, I decided on a backlit keyboard. That
>>has been a good decision.
>>
>>Fn-SPACE turns on the white LEDs.
>
> My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each of my
> systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.

I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give it
at try.

--
Ken

On 6/27/2021 4:50 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2021-06-27 6:23 p.m., J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:48:07, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> wrote (my
>> responses usually follow points raised):
>>> On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> CPU cooler is a must
>>>
>>> It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this
>>> year (AMD Ryzen 3700X).
>>
>> But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
>> Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
>> don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
>> as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).
>>>
>>>> NVMe or SSD for C; drive
>>>> CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
>>>
>>> If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.
>>
>> I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
>> didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
>> learn!
>> []
>
> Yes both Intel and AMD Have GPUs built into some of their CPUs that is
> the Onboard graphics,

Thanks for the clarification. I never knew that.

> The motherboard must be able to support these CPUs
> and have either an HDMI or Displayport socket.
>
> As an example my sons rig has an Intel i7 8700 CPU with Intel UHD 630
> graphics.
> My unit has an AMD 5 3400G CPU using Vega 11 graphics. the G denote
> built in GPU.
>
> Rene
>
>

--
Ken