On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:14:02 AM UTC-6, maus wrote:

> BTW, when I was younger, I was mislead on the idea of IQ, and attempted
> to join Mensa, and succeeded. Then I realised that I had joined a group
> that would take money to tell you you were smarter than most others,
> which logically actually showed that you were stupider.

That does not _necessarily_ follow. After all, any group has expenses,
if they have offices and postage and things like that. I remember hearing
about Mensa back in the early 60s, but it does not seem to have been a
success story.

John Savard

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 1:23:29 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> It all comes back to the nature vs. nurture argument.
> Those who argue it's all one and none of the other are
> missing the point.

Oh, I think that genetics plays a very important role in
determining an individual's potential intelligence. But that,
in itself, doesn't say anything about how differentiated that
genetic endowment might be between genetically distinct
ethnic groups.

John Savard

On 22 Apr 2022 16:13:59 GMT, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

>On 2022-04-22, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 4:26:24 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> > If there _were_ a real difference in IQ due to race, _that_ would be a big
>>> > problem, not because being smarter is _assumed_ to be better - it _is_
>>> > better - but because the reason horses aren't allowed to vote is because
>>> > horses aren't as smart as people.
>>
>>> Whether or not there are any real genetic differences in IQ (and people who
>>> have tried to find out have been crucified) this is too simplistic.
>>
>> I should have clarified. Obviously, there are no differences in IQ between the
>> races large enough to justify treating the members of any race as if they were
>> just animals. That, in itself, doesn't mean slight differences can't exist.
>
>I would think that there are massive differences in social conditions
>between peoples, for instance, Jewish social groups have an affinity to
>learning that aids them in life, where Hottentots ( Khoikhoi),do not, which
>impairs them. That is something that can be repaired easily.

Don't be too sure about that. When people are bound and determined to
resist your efforts to help them there's not really much you can do.

>The idea of Eugenics, arose with the rise in Racism after the 1880's or
>so. It is stupid and cruel.
>
>BTW, when I was younger, I was mislead on the idea of IQ, and attempted
>to join Mensa, and succeeded. Then I realised that I had joined a group
>that would take money to tell you you were smarter than most others,
>which logically actually showed that you were stupider.
>
>>
>> But if they did exist, and were proven to do so, it would still cause a problem
>> because then it would make it harder to argue that bigotry isn't valid. (Unless
>> the differences are in the "wrong" direction, of course.)
>>
>> John Savard

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:14:02 AM UTC-6, maus wrote:
>
>> BTW, when I was younger, I was mislead on the idea of IQ, and attempted
>> to join Mensa, and succeeded. Then I realised that I had joined a group
>> that would take money to tell you you were smarter than most others,
>> which logically actually showed that you were stupider.
>
>That does not _necessarily_ follow. After all, any group has expenses,
>if they have offices and postage and things like that. I remember hearing
>about Mensa back in the early 60s, but it does not seem to have been a
>success story.

They claim to have 134,000 members in more than 100 countries, so
perhaps rumors of their failure have been somewhat exaggerated.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:23:27 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

>On 2022-04-21, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> - Observed fact 1: The pervasiveness of inequality faced by black people in
>> the U.S. is _easily_ enough to account for the measured 15 points difference
>> in I.Q. between blacks and whites found by one study.
>
>It all comes back to the nature vs. nurture argument.
>Those who argue it's all one and none of the other are
>missing the point.

I'll believe there's not a genetic component when I get a
comprehensible text message from the cat.

On 22 Apr 2022 16:26:35 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Is this the place to mention Warren McCulloch's "A Heterarchy of Values
> Determined by the Topology of Nervous Nets"?
>
> https://vordenker.de/ggphilosophy/mcculloch_heterarchy.pdf

That is going to take some thoughtful reading.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 22 Apr 2022 16:13:59 GMT
maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

> BTW, when I was younger, I was mislead on the idea of IQ, and attempted
> to join Mensa, and succeeded. Then I realised that I had joined a group
> that would take money to tell you you were smarter than most others,
> which logically actually showed that you were stupider.

A college fiend of mine had one of the best descriptions of Mensa I
have ever heard, he called them "A bunch of brain proud idiots".

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 16:45:51 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll believe there's not a genetic component when I get a
> comprehensible text message from the cat.

How about a self aware AI - there's no genes there, assuming it's
possible of course which seems more likely than a texting cat.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Fr 22 Apr 2022 at 19:23, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2022-04-22, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> Now to speculation - if there are any racially linked intellectual
>> differences they won't be so crude as "these people are incredibly
>> intelligent and these ones are stupid" they will be more along the lines of
>> "these people tend to have better than average spatial awareness because
>> they ..." or even more subtle and specific.
>
> And even there we come back to the nature vs. nurture argument.
> With the spread of GPS, people's spatial awareness is atrophying.
> I think I read of a study that suggested the area in our brains
> that deals with spatial relationships is actually shrinking.
>
>> I have a higher measured IQ than pretty much everyone around
>> me but that doesn't make be better except at solving some kinds of puzzles -
>> for example I'm poor at languages while I recall a school friend with a much
>> lower measured IQ who was fluent in nine languages at the age of sixteen.
>
> I do really well with numbers, music, and many spatial problems -
> but I'm totally stumped by politics (and happy to be so).
>
> If you want an excuse to discriminate against a group, there
> all sorts of criteria you can pick to back up your arguments.
> (There are just as many criteria that will refute those arguments,
> though, and if you want to win you just have to shout them down.)

“It was so much easier to blame it on Them.
It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us.
If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault.
If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us.
I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them.
No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them.
We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.”
― Terry Pratchett, Jingo

On 2022-04-23, Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:

> On Fr 22 Apr 2022 at 19:23, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> If you want an excuse to discriminate against a group, there
>> all sorts of criteria you can pick to back up your arguments.
>> (There are just as many criteria that will refute those arguments,
>> though, and if you want to win you just have to shout them down.)
>
> “It was so much easier to blame it on Them.
> It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us.
> If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault.
> If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us.
> I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them.
> No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them.
> We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.”
> ― Terry Pratchett, Jingo

We have met the enemy and he is us.
-- Walt Kelly: Pogo

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 10:52:05 PM UTC-7, A.T. Murray wrote:

> President Biden wants the Russian butcher Putin to be gone. So be it.
> Leave Putin to Mentifex. Mentifex will get rid of Putin.
>
> 98004 42278 13935 96409 49097 88134 66187 34961
> 02750 62677 85021 91735 69568 63394 23804 67947
> 34322 30350 08918 08967 37613 98589 13452 81487
> 94136 01892 64829 39659 10745 58729 53448 53972

Mentifex relays Wayne Madsen Report: Russia's collapse

June 24, 2023 -- > Russia's collapse: News that will likely go unreported by the cable news pack

6/24 -- Private jets, as well as the IL96-300 PU presidential aircraft used by Putin, have flown from Moscow to St. Petersburg.
6/24 -- Former Russian President and current deputy chair of the Russian National Security Council Dmitry Medvedev and his family have reportedly fled Moscow for St. Petersburg.
6/24 -- The aircraft used by Belarusian President Aleksandr Lukasheno has flown from Minsk to Bodrum, Turkiye, reportedly with Lukashenko's family on board.
6/24 -- President Biden is spending the weekend at Camp David, which is close to the Alternate National Military Command Center on the Maryland-Pennsylvania state line.
6/24 -- Sandbag bunkers being set up on streets in Moscow.
6/24 -- Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov has deployed his Chechen National Guard troops to Wagner-held Rostov-on-Don. Wagner forces have mined the highway between Rostov and Taganrog, one of the key supply hubs for Russian forces in Ukraine.
6/24 -- Reports from inside Russia that the Russian state administration functions of the Russian Federation are being transferred from Moscow to St. Petersburg.
6/24 -- Heavy fighting reported between Wagner forces and Russian military units loyal to Putin in the Voronezh region.
6/24 -- 71st National Guard Regiment "Storm Z" unit commander, who goes by the name of "Zeki," has pledged his unit's loyalty to Wagner forces.
6/24 -- Wagner recruiting billboards are being taken down in Moscow.
6/24 -- Street brawls in Rostov between pro- and anti-Putin civilians being shown on Russian TV.
6/24 -- A prisoner riot has broken out in Vodnik pre-trial detention center..
6/24 -- British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has called an emergency Cobra national security meeting.
6/24 -- Putin made hurried phone calls to Belarus President Lukashenko, Kazakhstan President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev, Uzbekistan President Shavkat Mirziyoyev, and Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Erdogan pledged his full support for Putin. Tokayev told Putin that the events in Russia were an "internal" matter.

6/24 -- Russia watchers are looking for a repeat of the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union with constituent republics of the Russian Federation using the Russian uprising to declare their independence. All eyes are on Tatarstan, which is still upset with Putin for abrogating the last vestiges of its state autonomy.
6/24 -- Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin and Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin have been curiously silent and have not publicly rallied to Putin's support. Mishutin's plane was one of several belonging to Russian leaders that flew from Moscow to St. Petersburg.
6/24 -- Russian Deputy Prime Minister Denis Manturov, the richest person in the Russian government, excepting Putin, has reportedly fled Russia for Turkey.
6/24 -- Regular Russian Army units in Lipetsk have reportedly joined Wagner forces and are jointly en route to Moscow.
6/24 -- There are calls for mass protests in Moscow and St. Petersburg calling for an end to Russia's war against Ukraine and for Putin to step down.
6/24 -- Wagner forces have smashed through a barricade of dump truck placed on a highway to Moscow.

6/24 - Reports of Wagner forces in Syria and Africa flying to Russia to support the uprising against Putin.
6/24 -- The Kalinouski Regiment, a group of Belarusian soldiers fighting alongside Ukrainian forces against Russia, have announced plans to seize control of Minsk.
6/24 -- Russian Army machine gun emplacements are being set up along Moscow's Ring Road highway.
6/24 -- Russian civilians in Rostov are bringing food and water to Wagner troops in the city.
6/24 -- Russian army forces opened fire on a civilian car in Voronezh, killing the father and seriously wounding his wife and daughter.
6/24 -- Ukrainian forces have launched an offensive in the Kherson region.
6/24 -- Wagner forces have shot down 7 Russian military aircraft and helicopters in one day.
6/24 -- Polish President Andrzej Duda has summoned the National Security Bureau for an emergency meeting tonight. PM Morawiecki and Defense Minister Blaszczak will also attend. Poland is preparing for threats coming from instability in the Kaliningrad region and Belarus.
6/24 -- The Wagner Group convoy headed toward Moscow is led by its founder, the neo-Nazi commander Dmitry Utkin.
6/24 -- Lukashenko announces that Prigozhin has accepted Lukashenko's proposal to stop Wagner Group’s advance in Russia and start negotiations..
6/24 -- Major explosions at army bases in the Russian-occupied city of Urzuf, near Berdyansk, after a wave of Ukrainian missile strikes.
6/24 -- All flights out of Moscow have sold out.
6/24 -- There’s more and more theories pointing toward Prigozhin only being the face of a larger coup, which is supported by parts of the Army and the intelligence services. The goal is to remove Putin, withdraw from Ukraine and return to making business with the world.
6/24 -- Uganda will send soldiers to Moscow to defend Putin if need be, says Muhoozi Kainerugaba, the son of Uganda’s President.
6/24 -- Russian oligarch and Putin ally Arkady Rotenberg fled Moscow by plane to Baku, Azerbaijan.
6/24 -- Young Russian women fist-bumping Wagner fighters to say goodbye as they leave Rostov tonight. Crowds gathered along the streets and cheered as the Wagner soldiers shot their guns in the air. Note: Rostov-on-Don is the capital of the Don Cossacks, who don't consider themselves Russians.
6/24 -- Russian police have returned to Rostov after the Wagner Group’s departure tonight. The people aren’t happy to see them. They are blocking the streets and hurling insults at the policemen.
6/24 -- Russian special forces seized USD 48 million from the Wagner Group headquarters in St. Petersburg today.
6/24 -- The Wagner rank-and-file soldiers are furious with Prigozhin calling off the Battle of Moscow.
6/24 -- The authorities of Abkhazia have tightened control on the borders with Russia and Georgia and instructed to take critical infrastructure facilities under protection due to the situation in the Russian Federation.

https://www.waynemadsenreport.com/articles/june-24-2023-russias-collapse-news-that-will-likely-go

https://ai.neocities.org/Dushka.html --Russian Artificial Intelligence

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 21:29:55 -0700 (PDT)
"A.T. Murray" <mentificium@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 10:52:05 PM UTC-7, A.T. Murray wrote:
>
> > President Biden wants the Russian butcher Putin to be gone. So be it.
> > Leave Putin to Mentifex. Mentifex will get rid of Putin.
> >
> > 98004 42278 13935 96409 49097 88134 66187 34961
> > 02750 62677 85021 91735 69568 63394 23804 67947
> > 34322 30350 08918 08967 37613 98589 13452 81487
> > 94136 01892 64829 39659 10745 58729 53448 53972

What dis?
>
> Mentifex relays Wayne Madsen Report: Russia's collapse
>

> June 24, 2023 -- > Russia's collapse: News that will likely go unreported by the cable news pack
>
[]
> https://www.waynemadsenreport.com/articles/june-24-2023-russias-collapse-news-that-will-likely-go
[]

This is all Fantasy 'Reporting'
>
> https://ai.neocities.org/Dushka.html --Russian Artificial Intelligence

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.