On 2023-02-03, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Rockinghorse Winner <Rockinghorse@amgen.com> writes:
>>On 2023-02-02, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 02 Feb 2023 18:10:46 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone still here?
>>>
>>> Eastern Canada about to get it only. Temperatures plunge from -1 °C to
>>> -29 °C within 12 hours, windchill -40 °C. Which is by chance also -40 F.
>>>
>>>> Some pinhead posted a huge binary to the group, which is a pretty
>>>> effective DOS attack.
>>>
>>> NNTP Server here ignores those.
>>
>>I wonder if groups can be dropped from servers for inactivity.
>
> No. An inactive group costs nothing but a line in .newsrc.

Thanks for quick response.

--
'Many have sought in vain to tell joyously of the Most Joyous. Now at last It declares
Itself to me, now in this misery.' - Holderlin
____
/. \
___________< |___________
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
| |
^^^ ^^^
_________
| R W |
| (*) |
|____U____|

greymaus <greymaus@gmail.com> writes:
>On 2023-02-03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

>
>Plus, I am sad to say, in my case I am 30 years older, and a lot of fun has
>gone out of life anyway. Amazing, also, how reliable modern cars are, and how,
>after years of pushing EV's, how little they have penetrated the market

They currently have 18% of the market in california. That's not chump change.

On 3 Feb 2023 18:09:16 GMT
greymaus <greymaus@gmail.com> wrote:

> would call by to give out about EV's. Serious costs for replacing a
> battery.

Nobody in their right minds attempts that, an EV is essentially a
big battery in a mobile case.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 11:10:07 -0700
Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
> > Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
> > to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.
>
> I didn't notice it, getting my feed from eternal-september.org -- do
> they filter?

Yes they use cleanfeed.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-03 19:48, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> greymaus <greymaus@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 2023-02-03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Plus, I am sad to say, in my case I am 30 years older, and a lot of fun has
>> gone out of life anyway. Amazing, also, how reliable modern cars are, and how,
>> after years of pushing EV's, how little they have penetrated the market
>
> They currently have 18% of the market in california. That's not chump change.

In Norway it is 80%. It is cold up there, by the way.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On 3 Feb 2023 14:58:53 GMT
> greymaus <greymaus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To init a question, why were the `Micros' so much fun (say the Lorraine)
>> and the modern lapto[p so boring?.
>
> The early micros were limited, very varied and more than a bit rough
> around the edges and as such were only really suitable for people
> who were excited about the idea of having a computer of their own to
> play with instead of grubbing for time and privileges (at best) on a
> shared machine. A lot of the fun came from learning about them in
> detail (because you had to), exploring the capabilities and working
> round the limitations.
>
> The modern laptop is a polished consumer product designed for the
> most inattentive student to be able to use productively (if badly)
> with a minimum of effort and knowledge. they're pretty much all the
> same, it's either Windows or a Mac and that's it unless you're a
> geek. It's *designed* to be boring and doesn't reward detailed
> exploration with anything more than a severe headache and a deep
> sense of disgust.
>

[Not snipped because Mr. Shot is exactly right.]

I feel myself very fortunate to have spent 5 years with a flock of
Osborne I. Upgrading to double-density floppies and to 80-col
display, Z80 assembler, learning to talk to the serial port directly/
Figuring out how C worked when compiled, how the interrupts and stack
worked. All understandable, much of it documented.

So now, of course, there are a vast number of new complexities --
multi-core CPUs, CPU cache, pre-execution of code among many, many
others -- that I will never fully understand as well as both hardware
and kernel advances that I'm too old and stupid to beat up. But I
have a basic grasp of how computers work that I never would have
acquired had my first computer been something newer than a Windoes 95
laptop or even the 1st gen Mac.

That said, I cling doggedly to the fading notion that I can understand
what's going on in the box by running Slackware exclusively on several
machines. Intermittently a frustrating struggle but so far I remain
undefeated. I just bought a new pair of Redwing work boots. By the
time they're worn out, I'll probably be too old to wear work boots
anyhow. I can segue to bedroom slippers at the same time that I give
up trying to master Slackware Linux.

> In much the same way I expect the Model T Ford was a lot more fun
> than the latest Mondeo but I know which I'd rather drive across the
> country in.

I spent enough years as a foreign car mechanic (back when "foreign
car" meant something) to achieve something like wizard status. Now I
have no idea how to maintain good operation of my own Toyota but, as
AAR'sS opines, I don't have to as all that stuff I don't understand
makes reliaility and durability orders of magnitude better than a 1965
VW, 1975 Land Rover or 1985 Ford.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On Feb 3, 2023 at 7:48:53 AM CST, "Scott Lurndal" <Scott Lurndal> wrote:

> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
>>> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.
>>
>> Never saw said binary. Been here all along.
>
> It depends, of course, on the usenet provider. Mine did not
> filter the posts; there were some forty thousands parts posted
> over a two day stretch.

HighWinds and most other commercial providers do absolutely ZERO filtering.

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.

I'm still here.
--
"God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God." --Psalm 53:2. Old Ant saw his own shadow yesterday and still hasn't napped 4 days! Slammy Friday even when Home Alone so far. :) Black History Mo. & (L/C)NY 4721 [h2o black ????/(\_/)]!
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 2023-02-04, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
>> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.
>
> I'm still here.
>
>
Another pet hate, auto-mobiles that need special tools to fix. Cheers to John
Deere users.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On 03/02/2023 13:36, Joe Makowiec wrote:
> On 02 Feb 2023 in alt.folklore.computers, johnson wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-02, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
>>> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.
>>>
>>
>> adsum
>
> +1 for classical response
>

Caesar adsum jam forte?

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> greymaus wrote:
>
>> Amazing [...] after years of pushing EV's, how little they have
>> penetrated the market.
>
> Not really - they're still expensive options mostly bought new.
> They haven't really trickled down to the second hand market where most
> people buy their cars. I've been looking at it for some time, currently the
> only EVs that are good enough to completely replace my car are only
> available new or very nearly so

If I was running more than one car, I'd be more likely to consider an EV
as one of them, but I'm not ...

On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 14:21:48 +0000
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 03/02/2023 13:36, Joe Makowiec wrote:
> > On 02 Feb 2023 in alt.folklore.computers, johnson wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-02-02, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >>> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
> >>> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.
> >>>
> >>
> >> adsum
> >
> > +1 for classical response
> >
>
> Caesar adsum jam forte?

I once couldn't resist translating "summum est acumen" as "summer is
a comin'" which took a few minutes out of the latin lesson.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
>>> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.
>>
>> Never saw said binary. Been here all along.
>
> It depends, of course, on the usenet provider. Mine did not
> filter the posts; there were some forty thousands parts posted
> over a two day stretch.

Holy <bleep>! Yet another reason I <heart> Panix!

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

Am 02.02.2023 um 18:10:46 Uhr schrieb Charlie Gibbs:

> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.

Good news servers block binary posts in text groups.

2023-02-06, Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> schrieb:
> Am 02.02.2023 um 18:10:46 Uhr schrieb Charlie Gibbs:
>
>> Is anyone still here? Some pinhead posted a huge binary
>> to the group, which is a pretty effective DOS attack.
>
> Good news servers block binary posts in text groups.

Good news servers block _all_ binary posts.
--
"There's an eyeball in my Martini"

Jan v/d Broek balglaas@sdf.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - https://sdf.org

On 02/02/2023 22:53, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> Jim, you have two spaces after your two dashes. It confued my TBird.
>
> Now there is one. I thought two spaces was how it should be.

That's better. Thanks.
--
Andy

On 03/02/2023 19:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> In Norway it is 80%. It is cold up there, by the way.

Norway has loads of hydro electric power. Up there they really are
cutting carbon, unlike a lot of the world where the batteries are
charged by fossil fuels.

Andy

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 12:00:31 +0000
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 03/02/2023 19:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> > In Norway it is 80%. It is cold up there, by the way.
>
> Norway has loads of hydro electric power. Up there they really are

They have great geography for it.

> cutting carbon, unlike a lot of the world where the batteries are
> charged by fossil fuels.

Wind does a lot of it these days too, but to stop using fossil fuels
we need one or more of:

* A 90% population reduction
- No volunteers among those in favour it seems.
* A lot of nuclear power plants
- NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY ad so infinitum.
* An enormous amount of energy storage (flow batteries perhaps)
- Appears to be in progress *slowly* (which is unsurprising).
* Something new
- We might get lucky.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 12:00:31 +0000
>Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 03/02/2023 19:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> > In Norway it is 80%. It is cold up there, by the way.
>>
>> Norway has loads of hydro electric power. Up there they really are
>
> They have great geography for it.
>
>> cutting carbon, unlike a lot of the world where the batteries are
>> charged by fossil fuels.
>
> Wind does a lot of it these days too, but to stop using fossil fuels
>we need one or more of:
>
>* A 90% population reduction
> - No volunteers among those in favour it seems.
>* A lot of nuclear power plants

Back of the envelope calculation indicates a
requirement for about 30,000 1Gw nuclear power
plants to completely supply the annual 20TW
world-wide electricity consumption.

(which will be 30TW by the time the plants could be built
at the current rate of 2.5% annual energy growth).

There's not enough known obtainable reserves (by several orders of
magnitude) of fissionables to support that many active
reactors, whether based on Uranium or Thorium fuels.

Yes, there is a lot of U235 in the ocean. No, it's not
economically possible to recover it in sufficient quantities
to support 30,000 active reactors.

> - NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY ad so infinitum.
>* An enormous amount of energy storage (flow batteries perhaps)
> - Appears to be in progress *slowly* (which is unsurprising).

Storage in many forms, molten salts, hydro storage, batteries.

Efficiency improvements across the board (particularly in the
heating and air conditioning fields) are key. More mass
transit, long-distance trains instead of jet aircraft,
etc. et alia.

All of of which require energy themselves to create and implement, energy
that can't be used for the current purposes.

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/10/the-energy-trap/

>* Something new
> - We might get lucky.

I shouldn't like to bet my life on it, but it seems that
people[*] still aren't taking any of this seriously.

[*] Mainly those in the sorry-ass GOP.

On 2023-02-06, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 12:00:31 +0000
>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Norway has loads of hydro electric power. Up there they really are
>>
>> They have great geography for it.

So does British Columbia. Unfortunately, a lot of our projected
output is earmarked for producing LNG for export, while the rest
is being sold to California (with bitcoin factories sucking up
the remainder).

>>* Something new
>> - We might get lucky.
>
> I shouldn't like to bet my life on it, but it seems that
> people[*] still aren't taking any of this seriously.
>
> [*] Mainly those in the sorry-ass GOP.

A recent survey said that of all the provinces in Canada,
B.C. had the highest percentage (14%) of people whose
retirement planning included winning the lottery.

That's the kind of planning we're dealing with.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 15:07:05 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> >On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 12:00:31 +0000

> >* An enormous amount of energy storage (flow batteries perhaps)
> > - Appears to be in progress *slowly* (which is unsurprising).
>
> Storage in many forms, molten salts, hydro storage, batteries.

For sure there's nowhere near enough lithium to depend on that and
everything we can think of may well not be enough. We're pretty much maxed
out on hydro storage anyway, there are only so many good sites but there
are some oddball ideas around in that area.

Molten salts is an interesting one, especially when heat is what is
wanted and is available - generating electricity is far from efficient no
matter how you do it. I worry a bit about the above ground designs though -
the first time one of those leaks it will be NIMBY for ever unless the leak
containment is really good.

The only current battery design for which there is definitely no
shortage of materials for is the iron-iron redox (iron and salt water are in
plentiful supply) design for which someone (ICBA to look them up again) has
a long life electrode in production. IIRC it runs about 50Wh per litre so
useless for portable applications but good enough for long term grid
storage.

To use renewables alone we need storage for about a week, say
around 5000 terawatt hours.

To use iron-iron redox alone I make that around 100,000 billion
litres or perhaps better 100 million tanks of a million litres (swimming
pool size) - plus of course 30 terawatts of electrodes. This is at least
possible (I doubt we could even measure the impact on the ocean level
harvesting that much chloride to make ferric/ous chloride solution) but we
could certainly do with better options.

No matter how we do it getting off fossil fuels will be a huge
undertaking unless we go the population reduction route which is the
inevitable consequence of not doing better.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 11:58:31 +0000, Vir Campestris
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 02/02/2023 22:53, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> Jim, you have two spaces after your two dashes. It confued my TBird.
>>
>> Now there is one. I thought two spaces was how it should be.
>
>That's better. Thanks.

You're welcome.
--
Jim

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 13:20:47 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 12:00:31 +0000
>Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 03/02/2023 19:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> > In Norway it is 80%. It is cold up there, by the way.
>>
>> Norway has loads of hydro electric power. Up there they really are
>
> They have great geography for it.
>
>> cutting carbon, unlike a lot of the world where the batteries are
>> charged by fossil fuels.
>
> Wind does a lot of it these days too, but to stop using fossil fuels
>we need one or more of:
>
>* A 90% population reduction
> - No volunteers among those in favour it seems.
>* A lot of nuclear power plants
> - NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY ad so infinitum.
>* An enormous amount of energy storage (flow batteries perhaps)
> - Appears to be in progress *slowly* (which is unsurprising).
>* Something new
> - We might get lucky.

Or something like Shipstones, mentioned in various books by RAH.
--
Jim

D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> writes:
>On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 13:20:47 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
><steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 12:00:31 +0000
>>Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/02/2023 19:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> > In Norway it is 80%. It is cold up there, by the way.
>>>
>>> Norway has loads of hydro electric power. Up there they really are
>>
>> They have great geography for it.
>>
>>> cutting carbon, unlike a lot of the world where the batteries are
>>> charged by fossil fuels.
>>
>> Wind does a lot of it these days too, but to stop using fossil fuels
>>we need one or more of:
>>
>>* A 90% population reduction
>> - No volunteers among those in favour it seems.
>>* A lot of nuclear power plants
>> - NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY ad so infinitum.
>>* An enormous amount of energy storage (flow batteries perhaps)
>> - Appears to be in progress *slowly* (which is unsurprising).
>>* Something new
>> - We might get lucky.
>
>Or something like Shipstones, mentioned in various books by RAH.

Waiting for "something like Shipstones" would be pretty foolish.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 15:07:05 GMT
>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> >On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 12:00:31 +0000
>
>> >* An enormous amount of energy storage (flow batteries perhaps)
>> > - Appears to be in progress *slowly* (which is unsurprising).
>>
>> Storage in many forms, molten salts, hydro storage, batteries.
>
> For sure there's nowhere near enough lithium to depend on that and
>everything we can think of may well not be enough.

There is some work on sulfer-flow batteries that looks promising.

https://www.altenergymag.com/article/2018/09/are-sulfur-flow-batteries-the-answer/29441

> We're pretty much maxed
>out on hydro storage anyway, there are only so many good sites but there
>are some oddball ideas around in that area.

Some of the existing seasonal storage hydro reservoirs could be
used daily for power production (pump in at night and release
during the day). I'm thinking of San Luis, for example, which
currently stores in during the winter and releases during the
summer. I suspect there would be enough storage in the forebay
to support daily release/nightly pumping if they had a surplus
of wind energy for example. There are a number of (rather old)
windmills in the immediate vicinity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Luis_Reservoir

LA wants to do something similar at Lake Mead/Hoover dam, see
the article above.

>
> Molten salts is an interesting one, especially when heat is what is
>wanted and is available - generating electricity is far from efficient no
>matter how you do it. I worry a bit about the above ground designs though -
>the first time one of those leaks it will be NIMBY for ever unless the leak
>containment is really good.

There are some in operation.

https://www.aalborgcsp.com/business-areas/csp-power-plant-technologies/solar-tower-receiver-molten-salt

>
> The only current battery design for which there is definitely no
>shortage of materials for is the iron-iron redox (iron and salt water are in
>plentiful supply) design for which someone (ICBA to look them up again) has
>a long life electrode in production. IIRC it runs about 50Wh per litre so
>useless for portable applications but good enough for long term grid
>storage.
>
> To use renewables alone we need storage for about a week, say
>around 5000 terawatt hours.
>
> To use iron-iron redox alone I make that around 100,000 billion
>litres or perhaps better 100 million tanks of a million litres (swimming
>pool size) - plus of course 30 terawatts of electrodes. This is at least
>possible (I doubt we could even measure the impact on the ocean level
>harvesting that much chloride to make ferric/ous chloride solution) but we
>could certainly do with better options.

To many people out there don't bother to do the math. Those that
do get rather depressed by the results :-(.

>
> No matter how we do it getting off fossil fuels will be a huge
>undertaking unless we go the population reduction route which is the
>inevitable consequence of not doing better.

It's probably inevitable anyway, the earth is well beyond its
steady-state carrying capacity.

Until our economic systems no longer require growth to be healthy,
we're basically screwed in the long run.