On 10/9/22 14:01, Henry Crun wrote:
> On 07/10/2022 13:10, Mike Easter wrote:
>> stepore wrote:
>>> mechanic wrote:
>>>> Stupid things, such as?
>>>
>> (I think) stepore should've left enough previous context such as:
>>
>> ---------------------
>> stepore wrote:
>>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>>> Maybe 'buntu is an improvement of some kind over its parent Debian
>>>> or maybe not.
>>>
>>> It is. Of course it is. But it also does some stupid things that make
>>> me glad that Debian is still good ol' Debian. Thank the gods we have
>>> choice.---------------------
>>
>>> Some are politics I don't agree with and don't like discussing politics publicly.
>>> Some are poor leadership decisions by Mark, again I don't agree with.
>>>
>>> Some are technical things, like Snaps. I think they're a fine decision technically and have no problem with them as optional, but when they're actively removing packages like Firefox and replacing with snaps, it's a garbage decision. I rue the day
>>> when not only other major packages are replaced with snaps but even base system packages too. To the point where snaps will be dependent upon and removing them won't be an option. At that point, I'm out!
>>>
>>>> And there are a few distros which are close to the parent Debian,
>>>> but with some usability improvements (SolydX, SpiralLinux,...)
>>>
>>> I'm well aware of all the distros. I'll stick with Debian if/when Ubuntu jumps the shark.
>>
>> Some of the appeal of Mint to me is that it takes what is good about basing on 'buntu and its Debian-derived 'ub' repo/s and improving on the UI w/ its tweaked/forked DEs, particularly the Cinnamon fork, and eliminating 'buntu bad decisions like
>> default Snaps and adding some useful Mint apps and dev.
>>
>> To me, the 'buntu derived flagship Mint Cinnamon is clearly better than flagship Ubuntu Gnome because of those differences, and I find Neon's KDE a better 'buntu than Kubuntu.
>>
>> Mint is also 'looking after' the day when it might 'have to' go Deb because of its 'differences' w/ 'buntu decisions; ie LMDE, Debian in a Mint suit.
>>
>
> Personally, coming from a background of command-line oriented OSs (some RT11, RSTS, VMS) I tend to prefer the convenience of GNOME CLI, terminals that emulate VT<whatever>. (dons asbestos underwear...)
> Also, is Mint systemd-free? (I'm not near a place where I can install to try, at the momont, and too lazy to go a long way 'round)
>
Well when - if ever - you might evolve to use a GUI, you might
find a ocean of time. :-)

Edmund
--
“The further a society drifts from the truth,
the more it will hate those who speak it”

George Orwell

Henry Crun wrote:
> Also, is Mint systemd-free?

No.

The systemd-free distro/s I've used are MX/Anti-X, PCLOS, EasyOS &
Puppy, and Peppermint (but I haven't its Devuan v).

I like that MX/Anti-X make it 'optional' at the boot.

Peppermint has evolved a lot; once LXDE over Ub, now xfce default over Deb.

--
Mike Easter

On 10/8/22 16:57, Mike Easter wrote:
> Dr. Noah Bodie wrote:
>> Anyone using this? I have it on a pen drive and it looks good.
>>
>> https://endeavouros.com
>
> Tinkering w/ EOS.
>
> It is a huge departure from a 'conventional' Mint/Ubuntu UI or even a
> 'similar' (XFCE over Arch) Manjaro xfce.
>
> The endeavour 'people' (support, such as dev/s and supporters in E
> forum) expect the user to 'get with' using the command line to do things
> which includes solving problems.  It is NOT a beginner distro, as Jesse
> Smith's review says.
>
> Take the business of there not being a graphical package manager and
> follow that up with trying to install a graphical package manager.
>
> In such as ubuntu, if you don't like the default software manager, which
> I don't, it is simple to install such as synaptic from the software
> manager or the command line.
>
> Not so to 'simply' install pamac in E; you have yay & pacman by default,
> but you aren't there at all.  You need to get command educated first.
>
> I would have to do a lot of 'studying' to use E, and the
> command-line-only types in the community aren't very friendly to those
> who aren't -- it seems to me.

And that is an an advantage to the PCLinuxOS forum with plenty
of friendly terminal experts willing to help the newbies and plenty of
GUI in the distribution for people like me. Maybe more GUI than some
people want. We don't use Gnome but Mate, Plasma 5 and XFCE in the
house blends, but the Community uses Trident to Open Box.

I read here about Ubuntu to keep up on the problems faced
by some SF-LUG users but would never use Gnome or Unity.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
the Perfect Computer Linus Operating System(for me),
and a minor case of hypergraphia.
Linux 5.19.14 KDE Plasma 5 5.25.5
PCLinux Forum Free Registraion at
<https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php>

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 10/9/22 08:15, Mike Easter wrote:
> Henry Crun wrote:
>> Also, is Mint systemd-free?
>
> No.
>
> The systemd-free distro/s I've used are MX/Anti-X, PCLOS, EasyOS &
> Puppy, and Peppermint (but I haven't its Devuan v).
>
> I like that MX/Anti-X make it 'optional' at the boot.
>
> Peppermint has evolved a lot; once LXDE over Ub, now xfce default over Deb.
>
And have you tried Linux Mint Debian?
They should make a Linux Mint Devuan.

bliss

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>     And have you tried Linux Mint Debian?
>     They should make a Linux Mint Devuan.

Yes, I like LMDE just fine, I like Debian, I like Cinnamon, and I like
the mint 'tools'.

I'm not anti-systemd. I understand the 'beef', but it also has some
good purposes and some efficient ways of going about them.

I'm also glad that others would rather get it all done another way w/o
systemd.

I don't think Mint should make a Mint Devuan; they have enough on their
plate. I'm quite glad they broke w/ Ub over the Snap biz.

--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter wrote:
> Not so to 'simply' install pamac in E; you have yay & pacman by default,
> but you aren't there at all.  You need to get command educated first.
>
> I would have to do a lot of 'studying' to use E,

I have a lot more trouble w/ EOS but this is the wrong place for it.

--
Mike Easter

On Fri, 7 Oct 2022, space aliens made Mike Easter write:

>> It is. Of course it is. But it also does some stupid things that make
>> me glad that Debian is still good ol' Debian. Thank the gods we have
>> choice.---------------------

No, it's not. Anytime someone says "of course", it's usually an assumption
based on personal prejudice, free of factual information.

>> Some are poor leadership decisions by Mark, again I don't agree with.

Lots. Most software stuff these days is ego-based, someone trying to make
a name for themselves be reinventing a wheel that didn't need inventing in
the first place.

>> Some are technical things, like Snaps. I think they're a fine decision
>> technically and have no problem with them as optional, but when they're
>> actively removing packages like Firefox and replacing with snaps, it's a
>> garbage decision. I rue the day when not only other major packages are
>> replaced with snaps but even base system packages too. To the point where
>> snaps will be dependent upon and removing them won't be an option. At that
>> point, I'm out!

I totally disagree tih jamming stuff like this down people's throats.
Isn't Linux supposed to be about freedom of choice?

> Some of the appeal of Mint to me is that it takes what is good about basing
> on 'buntu and its Debian-derived 'ub' repo/s and improving on the UI w/ its
> tweaked/forked DEs, particularly the Cinnamon fork, and eliminating 'buntu
> bad decisions like default Snaps and adding some useful Mint apps and dev.

Besides, it's about 50% faster on the same hardware.

> To me, the 'buntu derived flagship Mint Cinnamon is clearly better than
> flagship Ubuntu Gnome because of those differences, and I find Neon's KDE a
> better 'buntu than Kubuntu.
>
> Mint is also 'looking after' the day when it might 'have to' go Deb because
> of its 'differences' w/ 'buntu decisions; ie LMDE, Debian in a Mint suit.

I like LMDE. Better than I like Ubuntu.

On Sun, 9 Oct 2022, space aliens made Henry Crun write:

> Personally, coming from a background of command-line oriented OSs (some
> RT11, RSTS, VMS) I tend to prefer the convenience of GNOME CLI, terminals
> that emulate VT<whatever>. (dons asbestos underwear...)
> Also, is Mint systemd-free? (I'm not near a place where I can install to
> try, at the momont, and too lazy to go a long way 'round)

Systemd is yet another "solution" in search of a problem, and someone
trying to create something as a monument to his ego, instead of actually
being useful, simple, and clean. We've strayed far away from the
beginnings of UNIX.

You people who trim excessively (which trimming I'm already aggressive
enough) and don't leave enough attribution and context to see who said
what about what annoy me.

You should be using less fancy schmancy attribution content and more
'precision' in your attributing and quoting.

I'll fix it for you.

Crypto God improperly attributed:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> stepore said:
>
>>> It is. Of course it is. But it also does some stupid things that
>>> make me glad that Debian is still good ol' Debian. Thank the gods
>>> we have choice.---------------------
>
> No, it's not. Anytime someone says "of course", it's usually an
> assumption based on personal prejudice, free of factual information.
>
>>> Some are poor leadership decisions by Mark, again I don't agree
>>> with.
>
> Lots. Most software stuff these days is ego-based, someone trying to
> make a name for themselves be reinventing a wheel that didn't need
> inventing in the first place.
>
>>> Some are technical things, like Snaps. I think they're a fine
>>> decision technically and have no problem with them as optional,
>>> but when they're actively removing packages like Firefox and
>>> replacing with snaps, it's a garbage decision. I rue the day when
>>> not only other major packages are replaced with snaps but even
>>> base system packages too. To the point where snaps will be
>>> dependent upon and removing them won't be an option. At that
>>> point, I'm out!
>
> I totally disagree tih jamming stuff like this down people's throats.
> Isn't Linux supposed to be about freedom of choice?
>
>> Some of the appeal of Mint to me is that it takes what is good
>> about basing on 'buntu and its Debian-derived 'ub' repo/s and
>> improving on the UI w/ its tweaked/forked DEs, particularly the
>> Cinnamon fork, and eliminating 'buntu bad decisions like default
>> Snaps and adding some useful Mint apps and dev.
>
> Besides, it's about 50% faster on the same hardware.
>
>> To me, the 'buntu derived flagship Mint Cinnamon is clearly better
>> than flagship Ubuntu Gnome because of those differences, and I
>> find Neon's KDE a better 'buntu than Kubuntu.
>>
>> Mint is also 'looking after' the day when it might 'have to' go Deb
>> because of its 'differences' w/ 'buntu decisions; ie LMDE, Debian
>> in a Mint suit.
>
> I like LMDE. Better than I like Ubuntu.

--
Mike Easter

On Fri, 7 Oct 2022 03:10:44 -0700
Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote:

> stepore wrote:
> > mechanic wrote:
> >> Stupid things, such as?
> >
> (I think) stepore should've left enough previous context such as:
>
> ---------------------
> stepore wrote:
> > Mike Easter wrote:
> >> Maybe 'buntu is an improvement of some kind over its parent Debian
> >> or maybe not.
> >
> > It is. Of course it is. But it also does some stupid things that make
> > me glad that Debian is still good ol' Debian. Thank the gods we have
> > choice.---------------------
>
> > Some are politics I don't agree with and don't like discussing politics
> > publicly.
> > Some are poor leadership decisions by Mark, again I don't agree with.
> >
> > Some are technical things, like Snaps. I think they're a fine decision
> > technically and have no problem with them as optional, but when they're
> > actively removing packages like Firefox and replacing with snaps, it's a
> > garbage decision. I rue the day when not only other major packages are
> > replaced with snaps but even base system packages too. To the point
> > where snaps will be dependent upon and removing them won't be an option.
> > At that point, I'm out!
> >
> >> And there are a few distros which are close to the parent Debian,
> >> but with some usability improvements (SolydX, SpiralLinux,...)
> >
> > I'm well aware of all the distros. I'll stick with Debian if/when Ubuntu
> > jumps the shark.
>
> Some of the appeal of Mint to me is that it takes what is good about
> basing on 'buntu and its Debian-derived 'ub' repo/s and improving on the
> UI w/ its tweaked/forked DEs, particularly the Cinnamon fork, and
> eliminating 'buntu bad decisions like default Snaps and adding some
> useful Mint apps and dev.
>
> To me, the 'buntu derived flagship Mint Cinnamon is clearly better than
> flagship Ubuntu Gnome because of those differences, and I find Neon's
> KDE a better 'buntu than Kubuntu.
>
> Mint is also 'looking after' the day when it might 'have to' go Deb
> because of its 'differences' w/ 'buntu decisions; ie LMDE, Debian in a
> Mint suit.
>
> --
> Mike Easter

My thoughts exactly.

Alan

--
Mint 20.3, kernel 5.4.0-124-generic, Cinnamon 5.2.7
running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 16GB of DRAM.

> Mint is also 'looking after' the day when it might 'have to' go Deb
> because of its 'differences' w/ 'buntu decisions; ie LMDE, Debian in a
> Mint suit.
===========================
Yes , I happily run LMDE 4 on my laptop ,whereas I have LM Cinnamon on
a desktop PC. Both are pretty good .......for me no future moving away
from Linux Mint. I have abandoned Ubuntu 2 years ago

On an old 32 bit machine (Dell desktop) I run MX-Linux, also very
satisfying.

Frank in County Wicklow -Ireland

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 21:21:55 +0100, wicklowham wrote:

>> Mint is also 'looking after' the day when it might 'have to' go Deb
>> because of its 'differences' w/ 'buntu decisions; ie LMDE, Debian in a
>> Mint suit.
> ===========================
> Yes , I happily run LMDE 4 on my laptop ,whereas I have LM Cinnamon on
> a desktop PC. Both are pretty good .......for me no future moving away
> from Linux Mint. I have abandoned Ubuntu 2 years ago
>
> On an old 32 bit machine (Dell desktop) I run MX-Linux, also very
> satisfying.
>
> Frank in County Wicklow -Ireland

Notice that no-one seems to be running Endeavor (or even Endeavour)
which is the subject of this thread.

mechanic wrote:
> Notice that no-one seems to be running Endeavor (or even Endeavour)
> which is the subject of this thread.

I booted it live, attempted to install pamac, was unsuccessful, and shut
it down because I didn't have enough interest to figure it out. I
figured that if I wanted to use an Arch, I would do it w/ Mjo.

Also, the EOS forum has no search function. If I use google advanced
search on forum.endeavouros.com/ + pamac, it hangs.

And I decided that I didn't want to 'talk about' (troubleshoot) the
problem here, as it was OT.

--
Mike Easter

Henry Crun <mike@rechtman.com> writes:

>
> Personally, coming from a background of command-line oriented OSs
> (some RT11, RSTS, VMS) I tend to prefer the convenience of GNOME CLI,
> terminals that emulate VT<whatever>. (dons asbestos underwear...)
> Also, is Mint systemd-free? (I'm not near a place where I can install
> to try, at the momont, and too lazy to go a long way 'round)

You can easily manage systemd from the command line. :-)

If you've been able to adjust to moving from the PDP-11 and the VAX to a
PC with Linux, you should be able to make the small adjustment to
systemd.

I've been using systemd professionally for a number of years and use it
at home with Linux Mint on my desktop and my wife's laptop, as well as
with Raspberry Pi OS on a few RPis. It's been working fine and it's
better in a number of ways than SysV init or BSD's rc init is.

I got used to SMF on Solaris too, back when I was a Solaris admin. I got
used to upstart on Ubuntu and the past few years I've been using a Mac
and am used to launchd.

I expect to keep learning new things about computers until they bury me,
keyboard clasped to my chest. :-)

Crypto God <cryptogod@china.com> writes:

> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022, space aliens made Henry Crun write:
>
>> Personally, coming from a background of command-line oriented OSs
>> (some RT11, RSTS, VMS) I tend to prefer the convenience of GNOME
>> CLI, terminals that emulate VT<whatever>. (dons asbestos
>> underwear...)
>> Also, is Mint systemd-free? (I'm not near a place where I can
>> install to try, at the momont, and too lazy to go a long way 'round)
>
> Systemd is yet another "solution" in search of a problem, and someone
> trying to create something as a monument to his ego, instead of
> actually being useful, simple, and clean. We've strayed far away from
> the beginnings of UNIX.

You're welcome to use an old version of UNIX if you don't want anything
modern.

I use vi, sed, awk, perl, etc. a whole lot more than I manually use init
scripts or systemd. I've got my unix system and it does what I want.

If you don't like systemd, don't use it. All of this whinging about it
is old and worn out.

On 10/12/22 06:26, Crypto God wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022, space aliens made Henry Crun write:
>
>> Personally, coming from a background of command-line oriented OSs
>> (some RT11, RSTS, VMS) I tend to prefer the convenience of GNOME CLI,
>> terminals that emulate VT<whatever>. (dons asbestos underwear...)
>> Also, is Mint systemd-free? (I'm not near a place where I can install
>> to try, at the momont, and too lazy to go a long way 'round)
>
> Systemd is yet another "solution" in search of a problem, and someone
> trying to create something as a monument to his ego, instead of actually
> being useful, simple, and clean. We've strayed far away from the
> beginnings of UNIX.

Numerous GNU/Linux Distributions are still free of systemd3.
Modern versions of Unix are downloadable but have more GUI perhaps than
you are interested in.
To keep up on this sort of thing I suggest visiting Distrowatch.com
where they keep track of FOSS

My Linux OS is free of systemd(Poettering's Folly) and
could be run from a Command Line though I myself do not need to use it
much. However if I need to use the CLI in an unfamiliar manner
we have a free forum <https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php> which
is searchable by free registered members.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
the Perfect Computer Linux Operating System(for me),
and a minor case of hypergraphia.
Linux 5.19.15 KDE 5.26.0

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022, space aliens made wicklowham write:

>> Mint is also 'looking after' the day when it might 'have to' go Deb
>> because of its 'differences' w/ 'buntu decisions; ie LMDE, Debian in a
>> Mint suit.
> ===========================
> Yes , I happily run LMDE 4 on my laptop ,whereas I have LM Cinnamon on a
> desktop PC. Both are pretty good .......for me no future moving away from
> Linux Mint. I have abandoned Ubuntu 2 years ago
>
> On an old 32 bit machine (Dell desktop) I run MX-Linux, also very
> satisfying.

I'm running LMDE 3 on an old Dell laptop, very fast. I wish they provided
a clean upgrade path between releases, though.

I thought the LMDE releases were rolling update releases, but since you
can't upgrade to 4 from 3, or 5 from 4, I guess it's not strictly true.

Oh, and Mike "improper attribution" Easter? Either figure out what
multiple levels of ">" mean, or you can KMA.

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022, space aliens made mechanic write:

> Notice that no-one seems to be running Endeavor (or even Endeavour)
> which is the subject of this thread.

Never heard of her.