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It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same question"
button.

https://support.google.com/groups/thread/231067143/how-can-we-prevent-the-relentless-spam-targeting-usenet-groups?hl=en

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On 8/29/23 07:16, Paul W. Schleck wrote:
> It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same question"
> button.
>
> https://support.google.com/groups/thread/231067143/how-can-we-prevent-the-relentless-spam-targeting-usenet-groups?hl=en
>

Seems to me the best way to stop seeing spam is to set up a filter to
delete all posts with a gmail.com email address.

--
~rdh

rdh <rdh@tilde.institute> wrote:

> On 8/29/23 07:16, Paul W. Schleck wrote:
> > It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same question"
> > button.
> >
> > <https://support.google.com/groups/thread/231067143/how-can-we-prevent-the-relentless-spam-targeting-usenet-groups?hl=en>
> >
>
> Seems to me the best way to stop seeing spam is to set up a filter to
> delete all posts with a gmail.com email address.
>

I think you must mean "posted using Google's User-Agent G2/1.0" .

To killfile all From: addresses using " *@gmail.com " means that you
will be discarding many worthwhile posters. The From: address and
the User-Agent are ~not~ the same thing.

Regrettably, you won't see this valuable clue, which was provided
to you at no cost, gratis, absolutely free, by the SnipeCo WWWB
Internet Clue Foundation. You're very welcome.

--
^Ï^. – Sn!pe – <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address of origin and the client used are different concepts. However, blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.

In my case I am practically forced to work with an Apple IPad tablet. There is no good NNTP software for IPad. No executables have been created by Apple itself. Only three of them by independent programmers, available at the Apple Store and in other places, but NONE of the three is good. They are all very defective, accessing News Groups with them is a pain. So, there is no other solution than the infamous Google Groups portal between the protocols NNTP and HTTP (or HTTPS) used by the two services, respectively Usenet and World Wide Web. And NOTHING ELSE.

The fortunate individual who works with Linux, or BSD, or Solaris, or another suitable system of the Unics family, has not such a problem, because he has plenty of good software available for NNTP. Even the mass of ignorants who use Microsoft Windows have not such a problem, they also have software. But those of us in IPad HAVE such a problem.

What would Mister RDH recommend to us ? To build our own software from scratch ? It is in theory possible, but it would be like recommending to someone who wants to travel across the Atlantic Ocean to build his own transatlantic ship. Surely, reinventing the ocean-going raft is also an alternative in the pure theory, but not free of very serious risks.

At the moment, we have no other solution than Google Groups, no matter what people like Mister RDH may say of us.

Dixieland for ever !

CSS Dixieland

[Original newsgroups restored.]

CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:

N.B. Please try to set your line length to some more reasonable value.
I'm sure the Google Groups web UI can do that.

> I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only
> impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access
> Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network
> Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As
> Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by
> the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an
> address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address
> of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
> blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.

Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
tools they use.

Anyway, as I just posted in a thread in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,
in most newsreaders, one can easily filter on people using Google Group
or/and having a gmail.com address and whitelist the good guys. That's
what I do for another group which is frequented by gmail.com 'spammers'.

> In my case I am practically forced to work with an Apple IPad tablet.
> There is no good NNTP software for IPad. No executables have been
> created by Apple itself. Only three of them by independent
> programmers, available at the Apple Store and in other places, but
> NONE of the three is good. They are all very defective, accessing News
> Groups with them is a pain. So, there is no other solution than the
> infamous Google Groups portal between the protocols NNTP and HTTP (or
> HTTPS) used by the two services, respectively Usenet and World Wide
> Web. And NOTHING ELSE.
>
> The fortunate individual who works with Linux, or BSD, or Solaris, or
> another suitable system of the Unics family, has not such a problem,
> because he has plenty of good software available for NNTP. Even the
> mass of ignorants who use Microsoft Windows have not such a problem,
> they also have software. But those of us in IPad HAVE such a problem.

IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI
newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).

BTW, please don't talk about "the mass of ignorants who use Microsoft
Windows", because that makes you sound exactly like those you are
criticising.

> What would Mister RDH recommend to us ? To build our own software from
> scratch ? It is in theory possible, but it would be like recommending
> to someone who wants to travel across the Atlantic Ocean to build his
> own transatlantic ship. Surely, reinventing the ocean-going raft is
> also an alternative in the pure theory, but not free of very serious
> risks.
>
> At the moment, we have no other solution than Google Groups, no matter
> what people like Mister RDH may say of us.
>
> Dixieland for ever !
>
> CSS Dixieland

Am 29.08.2023 schrieb pschleck@panix.com (Paul W. Schleck):

> It may or may not be useful to also press the "I have the same
> question" button.

I cannot do that without a Google account.

Am 29.08.2023 schrieb rdh <rdh@tilde.institute>:

> Seems to me the best way to stop seeing spam is to set up a filter to
> delete all posts with a gmail.com email address.

No, only combined with injected via Google Groups, some people use
@gmail.com with other news servers that care about spam.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:

> N.B. Please try to set your line length to some more reasonable value.
>I'm sure the Google Groups web UI can do that.

>>I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only
>>impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access
>>Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network
>>Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As
>>Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by
>>the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an
>>address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address
>>of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
>>blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.

>Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
>tools they use.

And you're wrong. It is impossible for a Google Groups user to post
a conventional plain text article through the Google Groups Web interface.

It's not "judgemental" but observation. It's always extra work to post a
followup or, more likely, to post a followup to someone who quoted in
followup an article from Google Groups. I have to find the non-printing
non-ASCII characters which violate the plain text convention and remove
them. There are plenty of newsreaders in use that don't adequately
translate non-ASCII into the character set they are using, so the
non-ASCII characters are turned into gobledegook. This is a
long-standing well known problem with incompatibility in Usenet that
Google Groups makes worse with its inability to produce plain text.

When one doesn't post a plain-text article to Usenet, it's a matter of
telling the rest of us, "It looks fine on my screen. I don't care how it
appears on your screen. I don't care if it's likely to get mistranslated
by others."

Stop defending it. It's indefensible. Non-printing characters DO NOT
belong on Usenet. It's ridiculous that they are in such wide-spread use
on the Web and in word processing but those aren't comparable network issues.

And then there's use of non-ASCII characters in lieu of ASCII characters
where the exist, like open and close single and double quote and
non-ASCII points of suspension and non-ASCII em dash. Again, there are
plenty of people using newsreaders that do not properly translate UTF-8
characters (or the character set they didn't set in the newsreader).
This is a known problem. This can be turned off in Google Groups by
overriding one of the defaults.

You yourself pointed out that the user posted with a long line, probably
because he's using a proportional font and cares only about how it
appears on his screen and not to others. But that's how Google Groups
produces a Usenet article by default.

For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop computers.
An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart phone screen
even if one can find an appropriate newsreader. Of course I'm using the
newsreader from the character cell terminal and not with a graphical
interface, but most people use GUIs. With a properly-designed newsreader,
it is possible to output plain text even using a GUI, even using a Web
interface. But Google Groups goes another way.

"I'm not using a desktop computer" is not the same as "I have no choice
but to use Google Groups." Give me a break.

> Anyway, as I just posted in a thread in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,
>in most newsreaders, one can easily filter on people using Google Group
>or/and having a gmail.com address and whitelist the good guys. That's
>what I do for another group which is frequented by gmail.com 'spammers'.

You made a point that there should be on filtering based on use of a
Gmail address, so I disagree that you offered such a filter.

Finally, the main problem with spam and Google Groups is that Google
Groups had been the main point of peering with certain servers in China
that were major spam sources. The user isn't in position to kill file
spam from peers. That must be handled at the server level but again,
Google Groups went another way, causing trouble for the whole network.

>>In my case I am practically forced to work with an Apple IPad tablet.
>>There is no good NNTP software for IPad. . . .

I use more than one computer. Big deal. Even if I used a tablet, I'd use
a different computer for Usenet and email.

>>The fortunate individual who works with Linux, or BSD, or Solaris, or
>>another suitable system of the Unics family, has not such a problem,
>>because he has plenty of good software available for NNTP. Even the
>>mass of ignorants who use Microsoft Windows have not such a problem,
>>they also have software. But those of us in IPad HAVE such a problem.

This doesn't explain why you cannot use another computer in addition to
your tablet.

> IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
>there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
>and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
>UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI
>newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
>like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
>best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).

> BTW, please don't talk about "the mass of ignorants who use Microsoft
>Windows", because that makes you sound exactly like those you are
>criticising.

I use Windows for certain purposes because I have certain mission-critical
applications that require Windows. I don't use Windows for Mail and News
because I don't like the clients. I like my Unix clients, so I access
News and Mail from a terminal window.

I don't use a butterknife to cut meat. I have more than one knife
available to me in the kitchen. I don't use a slotted screwdriver bit to
turn a Philips-head screw. I don't use a sledgehammer to pound nails.

>>. . .

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> >CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > N.B. Please try to set your line length to some more reasonable value.
> >I'm sure the Google Groups web UI can do that.
>
> >>I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only
> >>impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access
> >>Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network
> >>Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As
> >>Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by
> >>the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an
> >>address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address
> >>of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
> >>blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
>
> >Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
> >tools they use.
>
> And you're wrong. It is impossible for a Google Groups user to post
> a conventional plain text article through the Google Groups Web interface.

I think I've seen some reasonable plain text articles from Google
Groups users. Not perfect and not even great, but reasonable. But that
experience might depend on the groups or/and posters.

> It's not "judgemental" but observation. It's always extra work to post a
> followup or, more likely, to post a followup to someone who quoted in
> followup an article from Google Groups. I have to find the non-printing
> non-ASCII characters which violate the plain text convention and remove
> them. There are plenty of newsreaders in use that don't adequately
> translate non-ASCII into the character set they are using, so the
> non-ASCII characters are turned into gobledegook. This is a
> long-standing well known problem with incompatibility in Usenet that
> Google Groups makes worse with its inability to produce plain text.
>
> When one doesn't post a plain-text article to Usenet, it's a matter of
> telling the rest of us, "It looks fine on my screen. I don't care how it
> appears on your screen. I don't care if it's likely to get mistranslated
> by others."
>
> Stop defending it. It's indefensible. Non-printing characters DO NOT
> belong on Usenet. It's ridiculous that they are in such wide-spread use
> on the Web and in word processing but those aren't comparable network issues.
>
> And then there's use of non-ASCII characters in lieu of ASCII characters
> where the exist, like open and close single and double quote and
> non-ASCII points of suspension and non-ASCII em dash. Again, there are
> plenty of people using newsreaders that do not properly translate UTF-8
> characters (or the character set they didn't set in the newsreader).

Being old-school myself, I mostly agree with what you're saying, but
in this day and age, 'plain text' does not (no longer) equate to no
non-ASCII and no non-printing. The war on that has long been lost.

Even (very) technically competent posters mess up their posts, often
because - as you mention - it looks OK on their screen, so they're not
aware that something is wrong.

So I just accept reality and move on.

> This is a known problem. This can be turned off in Google Groups by
> overriding one of the defaults.
>
> You yourself pointed out that the user posted with a long line, probably
> because he's using a proportional font and cares only about how it
> appears on his screen and not to others. But that's how Google Groups
> produces a Usenet article by default.

If you know how to change those defaults, then please speak up, so we
can show Google Groups users how to become better Netizens.

> For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop computers.

Fully agreed.

> An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart phone screen
> even if one can find an appropriate newsreader.

Note that the poster (CSS Dixieland) is using a *tablet* (iPad), not a
smartphone, so he probably has a screen which is quite capable of doing
80x24 characters.

[...]

> > Anyway, as I just posted in a thread in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,
> >in most newsreaders, one can easily filter on people using Google Group
> >or/and having a gmail.com address and whitelist the good guys. That's
> >what I do for another group which is frequented by gmail.com 'spammers'.
>
> You made a point that there should be on filtering based on use of a
> Gmail address, so I disagree that you offered such a filter.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean here (even after deleting
the first 'on').

[...]

> > IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
> >there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
> >and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
> >UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI
> >newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
> >like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
> >best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
>
> > BTW, please don't talk about "the mass of ignorants who use Microsoft
> >Windows", because that makes you sound exactly like those you are
> >criticising.
>
> I use Windows for certain purposes because I have certain mission-critical
> applications that require Windows. I don't use Windows for Mail and News
> because I don't like the clients. I like my Unix clients, so I access
> News and Mail from a terminal window.

As my User-Agent header shows, I also use a Unix(-origin) newsreader
(tin) and because it runs 'under' Cygwin, I can do/use all kinds of
other Unix stuff on Windows. For *me* that's the best of both worlds and
I do not need two machines, multi-booting, VM or anything like that. (My
use of Cygwin predates WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) by nearly two
decades. If I'd had to start now, I might use WSL instead of Cygwin.)

> I don't use a butterknife to cut meat. I have more than one knife
> available to me in the kitchen. I don't use a slotted screwdriver bit to
> turn a Philips-head screw. I don't use a sledgehammer to pound nails.

Earlier today, I wrote:
> CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> > The fortunate individual who works with Linux, or BSD, or Solaris, or
> > another suitable system of the Unics family, has not such a problem,
> > because he has plenty of good software available for NNTP. Even the
> > mass of ignorants who use Microsoft Windows have not such a problem,
> > they also have software. But those of us in IPad HAVE such a problem.
>
> IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
> there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
> and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
> UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI
> newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
> like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
> best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).

I've done a simple Google search and found that the 'app' is called
'a-Shell':

'a-Shell'
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/a-shell/id1473805438?platform=ipad>

The App Store page contains further pointers, like to the Developer
Web Site, which in turn contains pointers to GitHub, etc..

N.B. The Reviews on the App Store page indicate that there are also
other 'shells' for iOS, like 'iSH'.

[...]

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>>>CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> N.B. Please try to set your line length to some more reasonable value.
>>>I'm sure the Google Groups web UI can do that.

>>>>I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only
>>>>impractical, but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access
>>>>Usenet not by a dedicated client through a server of News Network
>>>>Protocol, but by the Usenet to Web interface of Google Groups. As
>>>>Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhile posters would be discarded by
>>>>the too simplistic method of filtering out those who post from an
>>>>address of Google GMail, although as he correctly informs, the address
>>>>of origin and the client used are different concepts. However,
>>>>blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.

>>>Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
>>>tools they use.

>>And you're wrong. It is impossible for a Google Groups user to post
>>a conventional plain text article through the Google Groups Web interface.

> I think I've seen some reasonable plain text articles from Google
>Groups users. Not perfect and not even great, but reasonable. But that
>experience might depend on the groups or/and posters.

The attribution line has a nonbreaking space in it, always. It's part of
the timestamp. 5:14<NBSP>PM

>. . .

>>This is a known problem. This can be turned off in Google Groups by
>>overriding one of the defaults.

>>You yourself pointed out that the user posted with a long line, probably
>>because he's using a proportional font and cares only about how it
>>appears on his screen and not to others. But that's how Google Groups
>>produces a Usenet article by default.

> If you know how to change those defaults, then please speak up, so we
>can show Google Groups users how to become better Netizens.

The Google use of <NBSP> cannot be turned off. There are settings that
sometimes turn off non-ASCII quotes and use ASCII quotes, sometimes.
That helps. It's turning off the Rich Text feature. But I've seen Google
Groups posters who insist they have this turned off but sometimes post
non-ASCII quotes.

The long line? The user has to turn off both Rich Text and choose a
fixed-width font, then set the line length correct. Actually, one line
per paragraph, making the paragraph a single very long line (whether or
not it's marked as Format=Flowed), causes less trouble than a paragraph
with long lines with interstitial breaks.

>>For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop computers.

> Fully agreed.

>>An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart phone screen
>>even if one can find an appropriate newsreader.

> Note that the poster (CSS Dixieland) is using a *tablet* (iPad), not a
>smartphone, so he probably has a screen which is quite capable of doing
>80x24 characters.

Good point. There are older Apple newsreaders that haven't been
supported in years but they may not work on the latest operating
systems. Do tablets have the ability to start up in linux?

>[...]

CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
>I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only impractical, =
>but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access Usenet not by a ded=
>icated client through a server of News Network Protocol, but by the Usenet =
>to Web interface of Google Groups. As Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhi=
>le posters would be discarded by the too simplistic method of filtering out=
> those who post from an address of Google GMail, although as he correctly i=
>nforms, the address of origin and the client used are different concepts. H=
>owever, blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.

There are other web interfaces to Usenet. They are not spam sources the
way google groups is. Feel free to use one of them if you are worried about
people blocking Google Groups. I am definitely inclined to support a UDP
against Google Groups although I think it's probably too late to do much
good.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

O 30/08/23 ás 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
> Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
> properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
> set in the newsreader).

Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
or their users should find better working implementations.

> For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
> computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
> phone screen

Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.

Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
> O 30/08/23 ás 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
> > Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
> > properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
> > set in the newsreader).
>
> Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
> or their users should find better working implementations.
>
> > For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
> > computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
> > phone screen
>
> Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.

And 'short' lines can be easily *unwrapped* into long lines, if the
(human) reader wishes.

As ~72-80 character lines have been the standard since the beginning,
'modern' newsreaders have no excuse for breaking 'old' newsreaders.
NetNews rule number one: "Don't break old clients!".

Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
>O 30/08/23 as 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:

You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in
it. Brilliant move, there.

>>Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
>>properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
>>set in the newsreader).

>Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
>or their users should find better working implementations.

Don't be an asshole. This is a well-known issue. Use of these
newsreaders long predates UTF-8's use on Usenet. In some cases, these
newsreaders predate character set declaration. The newsreaders tend to
be abandoned by their authors and certain platforms don't have other
choices in newsreaders that users find acceptable. I know any number of
Usenet users who deliberately use long out-of-date MacOS's in order to
continue using a specific newsreader that they like.

>>For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
>>computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
>>phone screen

>Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.

No, moron, line wrapping does not solve the long line problem. Long lines
tend to break awkwardly. Again, this is a well-known problem. Format=Flowed
standard was developed for the Blackberry, if I recall correctly, but
it's a poorly implemented standard. Most clients that claim to implement
it choke on reflowing quoted text. Very few output line length at 78
characters or less so it displays properly where flowed text isn't
implemented.

Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has
encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.

On 8/30/23 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
> tools they use.
>

I'm not really judging anyone for using Google Groups. Do you remember
what happened to the IRC in the 90s? A single host was behaving poorly,
and because the operators would not do anything to stop the griefers, it
was eventually quarantined.

Today (and for the past 5+ years), Google Groups is operating as a haven
for spammers. If they won't fix it, it's up to us, but our only recourse
is to just can all posts from them.

For what it's worth: I didn't come up with this idea. It was one that
someone told me makes Usenet a much better experience. I haven't
actually done it yet, but I know there exists a subset of people already
blocking Google Groups. My suggestion to any person who wants to
communicate on Usenet is to not use Google Groups. It's just too spammy.

--
~rdh

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

> CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I have to denounce the narrow views of Mister RDH as not only impractical, =
>>but also UNFAIR to those of us who are forced to access Usenet not by a ded=
>>icated client through a server of News Network Protocol, but by the Usenet =
>>to Web interface of Google Groups. As Mister Sn!pe indicates, many worthwhi=
>>le posters would be discarded by the too simplistic method of filtering out=
>> those who post from an address of Google GMail, although as he correctly i=
>>nforms, the address of origin and the client used are different concepts. H=
>>owever, blocking Google is not a solution AT ALL.
>
> There are other web interfaces to Usenet. They are not spam sources the
> way google groups is. Feel free to use one of them if you are worried about
> people blocking Google Groups. I am definitely inclined to support a UDP
> against Google Groups although I think it's probably too late to do much
> good.
> --scott

An unofficial UDP against Google Groups is almost as good. Drop the
messages and tell your peers you're dropping them. Note it on your
peering page. If it becomes known that a high percentage of servers are
dropping GG messages, the best-case scenario is that *good* posters find
new servers and the *bad* posters continue to use GG (and get ignored).

Every time I see a terrible post, hit 't' for headers and confirm that
yep, it came from Google... I get one step closer to just adding that rule.

john

rdh <rdh@tilde.institute> wrote:
>On 8/30/23 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:

>> Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
>>tools they use.

>I'm not really judging anyone for using Google Groups. Do you remember
>what happened to the IRC in the 90s? A single host was behaving poorly,
>and because the operators would not do anything to stop the griefers, it
>was eventually quarantined.

>Today (and for the past 5+ years), Google Groups is operating as a haven
>for spammers. If they won't fix it, it's up to us, but our only recourse
>is to just can all posts from them.

>For what it's worth: I didn't come up with this idea. It was one that
>someone told me makes Usenet a much better experience. I haven't
>actually done it yet, but I know there exists a subset of people already
>blocking Google Groups. My suggestion to any person who wants to
>communicate on Usenet is to not use Google Groups. It's just too spammy.

We've been telling people that for years, but you can't tell anyone who
is reluctant to subscribe to a News server and use a newsreader as the
client. Other people have to chose to overcome their own ignorance and
apathy.

On 31/08/2023 17:05, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> rdh <rdh@tilde.institute> wrote:
>> On 8/30/23 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>>> Agreed. I have always objected to people judging other people for the
>>> tools they use.
>
>> I'm not really judging anyone for using Google Groups. Do you remember
>> what happened to the IRC in the 90s? A single host was behaving poorly,
>> and because the operators would not do anything to stop the griefers, it
>> was eventually quarantined.
>
>> Today (and for the past 5+ years), Google Groups is operating as a haven
>> for spammers. If they won't fix it, it's up to us, but our only recourse
>> is to just can all posts from them.
>
>> For what it's worth: I didn't come up with this idea. It was one that
>> someone told me makes Usenet a much better experience. I haven't
>> actually done it yet, but I know there exists a subset of people already
>> blocking Google Groups. My suggestion to any person who wants to
>> communicate on Usenet is to not use Google Groups. It's just too spammy.
>
> We've been telling people that for years, but you can't tell anyone who
> is reluctant to subscribe to a News server and use a newsreader as the
> client. Other people have to chose to overcome their own ignorance and
> apathy.

It's about getting google to stop the flood coming from their googlegroups.

I filter on all of: user-agent = G2, message-id = googlegroups and from
= gmail.com
(some people use GG to post but don't use a gmail address, so all three
works well for me)

GG used to be useful for searching, but they broke that too.

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> >Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
[...]
> >>An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart phone screen
> >>even if one can find an appropriate newsreader.
>
> > Note that the poster (CSS Dixieland) is using a *tablet* (iPad), not a
> >smartphone, so he probably has a screen which is quite capable of doing
> >80x24 characters.
>
> Good point. There are older Apple newsreaders that haven't been
> supported in years but they may not work on the latest operating
> systems. Do tablets have the ability to start up in linux?

I don't think so. But see my second response with details about
'a-Shell', which offers a Unix like environment. That allows the user to
compile C/C++ programs, so can probably be used to build (make/compile/
link?) newsreaders like slrn or tin.

Well, Mister Slootweg, then for not sounding like an ignorant I may have to say:

"The highly intelligent, deeply knowledgeable, and always sophisticated Computing experts who wisely choose the advanced tools generously offered by Microsoft Windows, and make impressive feats programming with them..."

Sorry for the piece of good humour, I could not resist the joke. I do not intend to offend, I know that You work with Cygwin. I can only say that I worked with MS-DOS until its last release in 1994, and with Windows until Windows 98, later versions of Windows were not of my liking for various reasons. I moved first to Free-DOS, later I experimented with Minix, BSD and Linux. Now I am temporarily attached to an Apple IPad that I made the BLUNDER of acquiring.

I am aware of the long lines, character set (page code) issues, and the other presentation problems that Mister Kerman mentions. I know that my text appearing correctly on the screen of my tablet IS NO GUARANTEE of also appearing correctly on the screens of other devices. Unfortunately, though I have carefully read the help of Google Groups, I do not recall having read how to solve those problems. That information seems to be absent from the help..

You are correct, Mister Slootweg, that ISH and A-Shell are the best options for working with a semblance of the Linux command line in Apple IPad. I have not tried accessing News Groups via NNTP from those Linux emulators, I have the two installed in my tablet but I use them for other purposes. It may be better than accessing Google Groups via WWW (HTTP or HTTPS). So far I do not know. Important warning: Once installed in the tablet, ISH should not be updated to newer versions, because if updated, it loses communication with the 'Files' executable. It becomes then necessary to uninstall and install again, but of course losing all the data that were stored in the previous installation. It is a known problem of ISH, mentioned in the documentation, but probably not to be solved upstream any time soon.

This is a very brief resume of past or present projects for TRYING to emulate Linux in Apple devices:

Asahi Linux: for Apple Macintosh, not for Apple IOS.

A-Shell: Linux emulator. Files works. Better keyboard than Ish but impossible package installation.

Blink Shell: basic commands. SSH, Mosh, Blink Code dev for VSCode. Free for 7 days, then paid.

Checkra1n/PongoOS: jailbreak for IPad, not system or emulator. Usable from Linux or Macintosh.

Ish: Alpine Linux emulator. Files works only at first installation, not after update. Poor keyboard.

JingOS: Chinese project for Linux in Apple, incomplete and discontinued.

Linux Apple Resources: Asahi creator gives very succint ideas for Linux via Checkra1n/PongoOS

NewTerm: real terminal emulator for IOS, jailbreak required. It fully controls the Apple device,
much more than what A-Shell can do. Functions, tab-based interface, font support.

PostmarketOS: of 2010. Alpine Linux for IPad first generation. Very limited, almost discontinued.

QMole: of 2017. Linux compatibility container layer for IPad 1 version 8 or older. Discontinued.

Sandcastle: Android Linux for IPhone or IPod Touch, not for IPad. Unreliable and undocumented.

Termux: terminal emulator for Android supporting other Linux systems. Not for Apple IOS.

UTM: Arch, Debian, Fedora, Kali, Ubuntu Linux or others in jailbroken IPad 14. Prefer Debian 10.4
(about 10 Gigabytes) and ARM64 via 'Open in UTM', but if necessary use X64 or use 'Download':
https://mac.getutm.app/gallery/

It may be possible to install .IPA data set without external computer by some of these services:
https://www.diawi.com/
https://testflight.apple.com/
https://www.installonair.com/

I hope to have been useful with the succint information given above. Receive a Confederate Salute, Gentlemen.

[Original newsgroups restored.]

CSS Dixieland <cssdixieland@gmail.com> wrote:

First off, why did you again strip the other original groups? Is that
yet another quirk of Google Groups?

[...]

> I know that You work with Cygwin. I can only say that I worked with
> MS-DOS until its last release in 1994, and with Windows until Windows
> 98, later versions of Windows were not of my liking for various
> reasons. I moved first to Free-DOS, later I experimented with Minix,
> BSD and Linux. Now I am temporarily attached to an Apple IPad that I
> made the BLUNDER of acquiring.

If you "experimented with Minix, BSD and Linux", do you still have the
machine(s)? If so, you could use that/those to access NetNews/Usenet in
a proper way.

[...]

> This is a very brief resume of past or present projects for TRYING to
> emulate Linux in Apple devices:
[...]
> A-Shell: Linux emulator. Files works. Better keyboard than Ish but
> impossible package installation.

Looking at the Developer Website and the linked GitHub pages, package
installation looks quite easy to me. What problems do you have? Have you
tried a-Shell's 'App Support' site? Etc..

Do you need any additional packages at all to compile a newsreader?

[...]

All-in-all, to me, a-Shell looks like your best bet.

Finally, have you looked into other (than GG) web interfaces to Usenet
which Scott Dorsey referred to? That would be a much easier solution
(than Unix/Linux emuators). Scott didn't give any specific examples, but
I'm sure he or others would be able to help with that (and there's
always Google! :-)).

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
> there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
> and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
> UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI
> newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
> like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
> best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
>

Many Usenet users with iOS devices use Newstap to post with, available
from the iOS App Store, also on MacOS App Store for those using Apple
Silicon machines.

--
^Ï^. – Sn!pe – <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > IIRC from a discussion in the Android and iPhone groups, I understand
> > there is an 'app' for iOS which offers some Unix/Linux like environment
> > and which can probably have some Unix-origin CUI (Character/'Console'
> > UI) newsreaders like slrn and tin (which I use) and maybe even GUI
> > newsreaders like Thunderbird. IIRC, the name of the app is something
> > like 'ashell' (Apple shell). If you can't find that app, it's probably
> > best to post to the iPhone group (misc.phone.mobile.iphone).
>
> Many Usenet users with iOS devices use Newstap to post with, available
> from the iOS App Store, also on MacOS App Store for those using Apple
> Silicon machines.

Yes, I've heard about good/reasonable experiences with Newstap.

But poster 'CSS Dixieland' seems to have rejected it, unless Newstap
was not amongst the three apps he did look at, which is quite unlikely.

O 31/08/23 ás 16:38, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
> Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
>> O 30/08/23 as 17:03, Adam H. Kerman escribiu:
>
> You managed to create an attribution line with a non-ASCII character in
> it. Brilliant move, there.

Yes? That's a key on my keyboard, it's not hard at all.

>>> Again, there are plenty of people using newsreaders that do no
>>> properly translate UTF-8 characters (or the character set they didn't
>>> set in the newsreader).
>
>> Which means those newsreaders are broken. Their authors should fix them
>> or their users should find better working implementations.
>
> This is a well-known issue. Use of these
> newsreaders long predates UTF-8's use on Usenet. In some cases, these
> newsreaders predate character set declaration. The newsreaders tend to
> be abandoned by their authors and certain platforms don't have other
> choices in newsreaders that users find acceptable.
Software rots. What else's new.

>>> For better or worse, Usenet works best on laptop and desktop
>>> computers. An 80x24 display is very difficult to produce on a smart
>>> phone screen
>
>> Usenet is plain text. Line size doesn't matter, it can be easily wrapped.
>
> line wrapping does not solve the long line problem. Long lines
> tend to break awkwardly.

On the contrary, your short lines puts a limit on how much I can reduce
my screen, because the line breaks leave dangling words.

> Again, this is a well-known problem. Format=Flowed
> standard was developed for the Blackberry, if I recall correctly, but
> it's a poorly implemented standard. Most clients that claim to implement
> it choke on reflowing quoted text. Very few output line length at 78
> characters or less so it displays properly where flowed text isn't
> implemented.

Right, so they *are* broken.

> Anyone who has been on Usenet for more than a few minutes has
> encountered everything I've mentioned. Knock off the trolling here.

I don't. My client works well enough. Also, stop the namecalling.