Home Page
https://www.betterbird.eu/

Release Notes
https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html

On 12 Dec 2023 14:48, AllanH wrote:
> Home Page
> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>
> Release Notes
> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html

A few new features this time:
Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
compose, make tab restore optional.

This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better. www.betterbird.eu
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon
funktioniert's!

On 12/12/2023 at 13:48, AllanH wrote:
> Home Page
> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>
> Release Notes
> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html

Why would I want to move to Betterbird? I'm happy with TB which has a
large number of contributors I believe, whereas I think BB is very much
driven by a single person. That seems to me to be a potential problem
for BB downstream. Views, please?
--
Wilf

Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:

> AllanH wrote:
>
>> Home Page
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>
>> Release Notes
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>
> A few new features this time:
> Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
> compose, make tab restore optional.
>
> This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.

Ah, I wasn't aware Betterbird (never used it, just interested in it) was
donationware.

https://www.betterbird.eu/donate/index.html

Just *who* is Betterbird again? I cannot find the equivalent of a
Hoovers company profile on them. I haven't found they have trademarked
the product name or have registered for copyrights (perhaps because they
are a fork of Thunderbird). They're not an LLC, or a company entity.
Users may be averse to disclosing credit card numbers to an unknown.
What I've found is:

https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/former.html

Perhaps Jörg here is the Jörg mentioned there.

Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might it
reappear with each new version update (i.e., nag counter gets reset)?
Someone with multiple profiles (e.g., nymshifters) will get multiple
nags. Nagware can turn off donations. Of course, no mention of
donations will engender few. I remember Sandboxie that had monthly nags
to donate. Turned me off of that product, so I dropped it instead of
buying a license. Instead of nags, how about having a "Donate" entry in
one of the menus, like in the Help menu, or an icon at the right end of
a toolbar?

On 13 Dec 2023 00:03, VanguardLH wrote:
> Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might it
> reappear with each new version update (i.e., nag counter gets reset)?

It nags less than TB. Once a year. TB has nagged three times this year:
https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/comm-esr115/log/tip/mail/app/profile/all-thunderbird.js

July, November, December.

Otherwise, thanks for your good advice, BB already has a donation menu
entry.

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better. www.betterbird.eu
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon
funktioniert's!

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:03:04 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:
>
>> AllanH wrote:
>>
>>> Home Page
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>
>>> Release Notes
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>
>> A few new features this time:
>> Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
>> compose, make tab restore optional.
>>
>> This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.
>
>Ah, I wasn't aware Betterbird (never used it, just interested in it) was
>donationware.
>
>https://www.betterbird.eu/donate/index.html
>
>Just *who* is Betterbird again?

>What I've found is:
>
>https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/former.html
>
>Perhaps Jörg here is the Jörg mentioned there.

Please pay attention! <g> That's been established in other OT TB
threads.

>Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might it
>reappear with each new version update.

Even TB has begun pleading since SuperNova was released should a user
uninstall olde/download new/install new.

Given Firefox doesn't, and Mozilla ain't exactly poor, I see no reason
for the nag.

On 12/12/2023 4:37 PM, Wilf wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 at 13:48, AllanH wrote:
>> Home Page
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>
>> Release Notes
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>
> Why would I want to move to Betterbird?  I'm happy with TB which has a
> large number of contributors I believe, whereas I think BB is very much
> driven by a single person.  That seems to me to be a potential problem
> for BB downstream.   Views, please?

Things get fixed. Complaints, recommendations, and even questions get
addressed. Jorg has been helpful to me personally, and it impressed the
hell out of me. He's nothing like the Mozilla people, and I used TBird
for decades. I switched probably a couple years ago now and haven't
looked back, especially after hearing all the problems with supernova,
and reading de.comm.software.mozilla.mailnews where he actively
participates and help users with many of the issues and listens to
complaints. Yes, it's Jorg and a small team working on issues the users
want fixed. It's simple to install, try out, and use, and can co-exist
with a TBird installation. The other Jorg that posts here uses both, I
believe.

I sent a donation last year to help pay for the work his group does, and
it's about time to send another. I never sent one to TBird. They make
their money in other ways and in a direction I don't like.

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On 12/12/2023 6:52 PM, Nobody wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:03:04 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:
>>
>>> AllanH wrote:
>>>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>>
>>>> Release Notes
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>>
>>> A few new features this time:
>>> Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
>>> compose, make tab restore optional.
>>>
>>> This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.
>>
>> Ah, I wasn't aware Betterbird (never used it, just interested in it) was
>> donationware.
>>
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/donate/index.html
>>
>> Just *who* is Betterbird again?
>
>> What I've found is:
>>
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/former.html
>>
>> Perhaps Jörg here is the Jörg mentioned there.
>
> Please pay attention! <g> That's been established in other OT TB
> threads.
>
>> Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might it
>> reappear with each new version update.
>
> Even TB has begun pleading since SuperNova was released should a user
> uninstall olde/download new/install new.
>
> Given Firefox doesn't, and Mozilla ain't exactly poor, I see no reason
> for the nag.
>

Thunderbird was initially kicked out of Mozilla and was setting
up its own web site. It was at that point, that a donation model
made more sense. The word Donation may have appeared earlier than
that, but when TBird was kicked out, then they really meant it.

I don't think any organizations like Apache Foundation, were
interested in homing the project, since it would be a cost
center from them to, and bring in close-to-zero income to
pay for serving costs.

Bringing Thunderbird back inside, was part of a business case.
The business case around Supernova, has something to do with
creating AddOns for TB which people would pay for. Subscription
services. But before a subscription service comes along, since it is
a business case, since it has expenses, it looks better in a business
report, if it has "income". Any time businesses review "cost centers",
they're very rough with them, they try to trim staff, and so on.
I don't think TBird can afford staff cuts.

You don't want the TB project to get treated in as rough and
ready a fashion as the staff at Mozilla providing IT services
to the cubicle village.

Mozilla is trying to establish a "security blanket" for itself,
in the form of "other businesses than the Google contract". They
tried to do other services in the past. The VPN co-project with
an external supplier, might still be in place. They've also had
various things like "Sync" or such. I don't keep track of these
things, except to note a lot of flailing going on. It's pretty
hard to be an at-scale company, and attach "small business" projects
as warts to the side of the business. Big companies use M&A to
advance their objectives. Look at Cisco or Marvell. Well, Mozilla
does not "have a cash pile" or leverage, so M&A is out of the question.
The K9 project at Mozilla, is the closest thing to M&A, yet.

Paul

On 12/12/2023 5:37 PM, Wilf wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 at 13:48, AllanH wrote:
>> Home Page
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>
>> Release Notes
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>
> Why would I want to move to Betterbird?  I'm happy with TB which has a large number of contributors I believe, whereas I think BB is very much driven by a single person.  That seems to me to be a potential problem for BB downstream.   Views, please?

Some people like their "fit and finish". They like having
someone who fixes user-centric issues.

Mozilla has never been user centric -- it's always been developer centric
(Awesome Bar and activities, was where I got that delivered
in spades, that Mozilla would say "fuck the users" rather than
listen. Eventually, the Awesome Bar was adjusted to a better
quality of graphical representation.)

The mere existence of Betterbird, helps inspire Mozilla
to do better.

It's easier for a Betterbird developer to incorporate changes
in their fork, than it is to make a feature submission to
Mozilla, and go through the (annoying) review process. Every
organization has that, so-called "coding standards", and then
the delivery of features is held up while you adjust all
your return statements, to conform to a corporate standard.

Paul

On 12/12/2023 6:52 PM, Paul wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 5:37 PM, Wilf wrote:
>> On 12/12/2023 at 13:48, AllanH wrote:
>>> Home Page
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>
>>> Release Notes
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>
>> Why would I want to move to Betterbird?  I'm happy with TB which has a large number of contributors I believe, whereas I think BB is very much driven by a single person.  That seems to me to be a potential problem for BB downstream.   Views, please?
>
> Some people like their "fit and finish". They like having
> someone who fixes user-centric issues.
>
> Mozilla has never been user centric -- it's always been developer centric
> (Awesome Bar and activities, was where I got that delivered
> in spades, that Mozilla would say "fuck the users" rather than
> listen. Eventually, the Awesome Bar was adjusted to a better
> quality of graphical representation.)
>
> The mere existence of Betterbird, helps inspire Mozilla
> to do better.

I would add that I believe the fixes are also shown to the Mozilla
people, but I'm not positive on that being 100% true. I know for a fact
that at least some were shared on Bugzilla forum as there was a bug of
mine that was involved, and it appeared they actually blocked the BBird
people. BBird fixed it, TBird never did.

> It's easier for a Betterbird developer to incorporate changes
> in their fork, than it is to make a feature submission to
> Mozilla, and go through the (annoying) review process. Every
> organization has that, so-called "coding standards", and then
> the delivery of features is held up while you adjust all
> your return statements, to conform to a corporate standard.
>
> Paul

--
Stand With Israel!
NOTE: If you use Google Groups I don't see you,
unless you're whitelisted and that's doubtful.

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 19:46:54 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 12/12/2023 6:52 PM, Nobody wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:03:04 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>
>>> Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> AllanH wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Home Page
>>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>>>
>>>>> Release Notes
>>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>>>
>>>> A few new features this time:
>>>> Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
>>>> compose, make tab restore optional.
>>>>
>>>> This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.
>>>
>>> Ah, I wasn't aware Betterbird (never used it, just interested in it) was
>>> donationware.
>>>
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/donate/index.html
>>>
>>> Just *who* is Betterbird again?
>>
>>> What I've found is:
>>>
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/former.html
>>>
>>> Perhaps Jörg here is the Jörg mentioned there.
>>
>> Please pay attention! <g> That's been established in other OT TB
>> threads.
>>
>>> Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might it
>>> reappear with each new version update.
>>
>> Even TB has begun pleading since SuperNova was released should a user
>> uninstall olde/download new/install new.
>>
>> Given Firefox doesn't, and Mozilla ain't exactly poor, I see no reason
>> for the nag.
>>
>
>Thunderbird was initially kicked out of Mozilla and was setting
>up its own web site. It was at that point, that a donation model
>made more sense. The word Donation may have appeared earlier than
>that, but when TBird was kicked out, then they really meant it.

Never encountered such...

"On January 28, 2020, the Mozilla Foundation announced that the
project would henceforth be operating from (1) *a new wholly owned
subsidiary, MZLA Technologies Corporation*, in order to explore
offering products and services that were not previously possible and
to collect revenue through partnerships and non-charitable donations."

(1) My emphasis...

So give me a break.

i won't even ask, please.

Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might
>> it reappear with each new version update (i.e., nag counter gets
>> reset)?
>
> It nags less than TB. Once a year. TB has nagged three times this year:
> https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/comm-esr115/log/tip/mail/app/profile/all-thunderbird.js
>
> July, November, December.

Thanks for the info. I quit using Tbird about 3 years ago after
multiple separate trials of e-mail client. The last Tbird trial lasted
6 months before I couldn't stand it anymore. Maybe back then Tbird
didn't do nags, or I didn't trial it long enough. That's why I keep an
ear to what is happening with Betterbird.

Eventually I decided on using eM Client for an e-mail client, but
separately use 40tude Dialog for Usenet. Neither one has ever nagged me
for many years of using them. eM Client does have a pseudo-nag in that
the free version limits accounts to just 2; i.e., the free version is
supposed to support only a max of 2 account. Yet you can define more
than 2. Eventually the client gets confused, and stops polling some of
the accounts. Perhaps instead of a nag it eventually degenerates
support of more than 2.

> Otherwise, thanks for your good advice, BB already has a donation menu
> entry.

For me, I don't mind freeware that asks for donations in a manner that
is subdued, and not in the form of nags. If I used freeware long enough
(about a year), and it is important to me, yep, I donate to help keep it
alive. I've done the same with several donationware Android apps (none
of which were adware in their freeware version -- and ad-free freeware
Android apps are rare).

One reason I chose Dialog over other NNTP clients is support of regex,
and on ALL headers, not just the overview headers. To get all headers
means configuring Dialog to download complete messages (headers + body)
rather than just overview headers, and getting full headers only when
the user selects a message. I also configured Dialog not just to flag
(hide) an unwanted article using filters, but also the subthread. If I
don't want to see a post, I don't want to see replies to it, either.
Last I recall trialing Tbird, it had no regex support, and on all
headers. Regex on all headers lets me focus my filters to eliminate
false positives. Rules on Subject, and other overview headers, using
substring matches just is not sufficiently precise. Even regex can
sometimes fail if the expression isn't sufficiently accurate, and why I
only hide unwanted posts instead of deleting them, so I can change from
"Hide Ignored" to "Show All" to check on my filtering. Regex is only as
accurate as the one who defines it, and I continually learn more about
regex through my failures or needs beyond my currently expertise.
OR'ing is pretty easy just by having filters execute in sequence, but
AND'ing is often lacking, and sometimes a stop-clause in filter is
missing which prevent flow control (through which filters a message will
get exercised).

I suspect one day I'll get disappointed with Dialog and eM Client, and
decide to do more trials of multiple clients again. Betterbird will be
in the mix, but regex (PCRE) on all headers is pretty much a critical
feature when determining which candidates survive my trials.

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:03:04 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:
>>
>>> AllanH wrote:
>>>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>>
>>>> Release Notes
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>>
>>> A few new features this time:
>>> Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
>>> compose, make tab restore optional.
>>>
>>> This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.
>>
>>Ah, I wasn't aware Betterbird (never used it, just interested in it) was
>>donationware.
>>
>>https://www.betterbird.eu/donate/index.html
>>
>>Just *who* is Betterbird again?
>
>>What I've found is:
>>
>>https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/former.html
>>
>>Perhaps Jörg here is the Jörg mentioned there.
>
> Please pay attention! <g> That's been established in other OT TB
> threads.

I don't compile bios on anyone in Usenet. No one here is that important
to me to waste that time and effort. If you think the topic has been
discussed elswhere, and definitely proven, provide the MIDs for those
articles instead of making vacuous claims. I visit this newsgroup. I
don't live here.

>> Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might
>> it reappear with each new version update.
>
> Even TB has begun pleading since SuperNova was released should a user
> uninstall olde/download new/install new.
>
> Given Firefox doesn't, and Mozilla ain't exactly poor, I see no reason
> for the nag.

Well, as I recall, if you disable Firefox from doing its own update
checks, you get nagged every time you load Firefox. Oh yes, you can
disable auto-updates in Firefox. Oh yes, you'll get nagged on loading
Firefox. The nag isn't about donations, but it's still a nag.

about:preferences -> Firefox Updates
Select "Check for updates but let you choose to install them"

Therein is the option missing "Never check for updates", so you don't
get, ahem, "informed" there are any. Make sure to delete the Mozilla
Maintenance Service. In the past, when I loaded Firefox anew, I'd get a
nag, er, update notification to enable updates. Did Mozilla correct
their behavior by having one of the many app.update.* settings in
about:config actually /disable/ update notifications? Not do them
silently in the background, but cease and desist without any prompt? In
the past, there was a "Do Not Update" option (with no nag prompt), but
Mozilla decided to make obtuse how to disable the nag by requiring
about:config entries (some of which are no longer valid) or defining
policies (all policies are registry entries). It's rude already for
Mozilla to instigate an update when all I wanted to do was go to Help ->
About to see what version I already have. Notifying me in Help -> About
of an update is far different than trying to shove a new version onto my
computer without ever asking my permission.

I've not see a donate nag in Tbird, but that could be explained away by
me not trialing Tbird long enough. I was surprised Tbird nags for
donations. I've used Firefox for many years, never seen a nag for
donations, but have seen other nags. If don't donate, or I change
behavior through settings, I don't want to be nagged about my choices
which conflict with the author's choices.

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 19:46:54 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On 12/12/2023 6:52 PM, Nobody wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:03:04 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AllanH wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Home Page
>>>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Release Notes
>>>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>> A few new features this time:
>>>>> Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
>>>>> compose, make tab restore optional.
>>>>>
>>>>> This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, I wasn't aware Betterbird (never used it, just interested in it) was
>>>> donationware.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/donate/index.html
>>>>
>>>> Just *who* is Betterbird again?
>>>
>>>> What I've found is:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/former.html
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps Jörg here is the Jörg mentioned there.
>>>
>>> Please pay attention! <g> That's been established in other OT TB
>>> threads.
>>>
>>>> Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might it
>>>> reappear with each new version update.
>>>
>>> Even TB has begun pleading since SuperNova was released should a user
>>> uninstall olde/download new/install new.
>>>
>>> Given Firefox doesn't, and Mozilla ain't exactly poor, I see no reason
>>> for the nag.
>>>
>>
>>Thunderbird was initially kicked out of Mozilla and was setting
>>up its own web site. It was at that point, that a donation model
>>made more sense. The word Donation may have appeared earlier than
>>that, but when TBird was kicked out, then they really meant it.
>
> Never encountered such...
>
> "On January 28, 2020, the Mozilla Foundation announced that the
> project would henceforth be operating from (1) *a new wholly owned
> subsidiary, MZLA Technologies Corporation*, in order to explore
> offering products and services that were not previously possible and
> to collect revenue through partnerships and non-charitable donations."
>
> (1) My emphasis...
>
> So give me a break.
>
> i won't even ask, please.

When users mention "Mozilla", they don't differentiate between "Mozilla"
and "MZLA". Both are Mozilla to them. Same for subsidiaries operated
by a parent company: whose name is on the product. For Firefox, it's
Mozilla, not MZLA. Help -> About says Mozilla. For Thunderbird, it's
who? What entity is identified with the product itself? When going
into Help -> About in Thunderbird, who is claim its owner?

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 19:46:54 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On 12/12/2023 6:52 PM, Nobody wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:03:04 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jörg Knobloch <jorgk@jorgk.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AllanH wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Home Page
>>>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Release Notes
>>>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>> A few new features this time:
>>>>> Account colours (part 1), more layouts, attachment list on top during
>>>>> compose, make tab restore optional.
>>>>>
>>>>> This version will ask for a donation once (per profile) only.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, I wasn't aware Betterbird (never used it, just interested in it) was
>>>> donationware.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/donate/index.html
>>>>
>>>> Just *who* is Betterbird again?
>>>
>>>> What I've found is:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/former.html
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps Jörg here is the Jörg mentioned there.
>>>
>>> Please pay attention! <g> That's been established in other OT TB
>>> threads.
>>>
>>>> Hopefully, as you state, the donate nag appears just once, but might it
>>>> reappear with each new version update.
>>>
>>> Even TB has begun pleading since SuperNova was released should a user
>>> uninstall olde/download new/install new.
>>>
>>> Given Firefox doesn't, and Mozilla ain't exactly poor, I see no reason
>>> for the nag.
>>>
>>
>>Thunderbird was initially kicked out of Mozilla and was setting
>>up its own web site. It was at that point, that a donation model
>>made more sense. The word Donation may have appeared earlier than
>>that, but when TBird was kicked out, then they really meant it.
>
> Never encountered such...
>
> "On January 28, 2020, the Mozilla Foundation announced that the
> project would henceforth be operating from (1) *a new wholly owned
> subsidiary, MZLA Technologies Corporation*, in order to explore
> offering products and services that were not previously possible and
> to collect revenue through partnerships and non-charitable donations."
>
> (1) My emphasis...
>
> So give me a break.
>
> i won't even ask, please.

Mozilla Foundation
_____________________________
/ \
Mozilla Corporation (1) MZLA Technologies Corporation (2)
Firefox Thunderbird

Both are taxable subsidiaries.

(1) Non-profit. All profits reinvested into projects. Types and
amounts of revenue are limited.
(2) For-profit.

Those are different definitions, and probably why Mozilla Foundation
created a separate subsidiary to decouple Tbird from FF.

https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/donate/

According to web.archive.org, that page showed up on Feb 2023. Explains
why I never knew Tbird was or became donationware. Of course, maybe it
was a different URL before 2023 to get to a donations page. MZLA Tech
Corp, where Tbird got re-homed, was created 3 years earlier in Jan 2020.

https://blog.thunderbird.net/2020/01/thunderbirds-new-home/
Dated Jan 28, 2020.

https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/11/the-untold-history-of-thunderbird/
Dated Nov 2023.

The 2nd article doesn't give a specific date when donations were started
for Tbird other than to indicate donations started sometime after 2017.
More datestamps in the article would help significantly to lock down
when events occurred.

On 12/13/2023 1:28 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

> I've not see a donate nag in Tbird, but that could be explained away by
> me not trialing Tbird long enough.

When you install TBird and use it the first time, it may open a web page in
a separate tab. It does not open web pages all that often, in terms
of using its web engine. But it does that for the (curated) pages
provided by their own server.

For some reason, the Windows VM did not open a Privacy web page
on TBird first usage. But that could be some problem with my networking
here, for all I know.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/vDFgzPww/donate.gif

The financial significance of donation this way,
is pretty small. Some private developers have made
sarcastic comments about what a donation tab on
a website earned them.

The problem is, not everyone is set up for money
transfer. For example, the best mechanism to get
my interest in the past, would be Kagi or DigitalRiver.
Not everyone has Paypal. Or cryptowallets from the mall.

Paul

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 12/13/2023 1:28 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> I've not see a donate nag in Tbird, but that could be explained away by
>> me not trialing Tbird long enough.
>
> When you install TBird and use it the first time, it may open a web page in
> a separate tab. It does not open web pages all that often, in terms
> of using its web engine. But it does that for the (curated) pages
> provided by their own server.
>
> For some reason, the Windows VM did not open a Privacy web page
> on TBird first usage. But that could be some problem with my networking
> here, for all I know.
>
> [Picture]
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/vDFgzPww/donate.gif
>
> The financial significance of donation this way,
> is pretty small. Some private developers have made
> sarcastic comments about what a donation tab on
> a website earned them.
>
> The problem is, not everyone is set up for money
> transfer. For example, the best mechanism to get
> my interest in the past, would be Kagi or DigitalRiver.
> Not everyone has Paypal. Or cryptowallets from the mall.
>
> Paul

Some users don't want to dole out their credit card numbers to an
unknown. Jorg aka Betterbird is not a registered LLC or DBA for users
to see they are dealing with a company. The donations are to a person.
Jorg may be very trustworthy, but if I donate then I'll use a temp
credit card number: I have my issuer give me a new credit card number
(associated to my real one) where I can defined a max to allow for
charge(s) to it, and how long it is valid (1 month minimum to ensure a
duration of 1 billing cycle). I can put a max amount of the temp card,
like $10 USD if that's what I donate, and a 1-month expiration, so no
more than that could be charged, and cannot be charged later (no cycling
charges). I know some folks want to use cryptocurrency. Unlike credit
cards, crypto has no user-initiated refund (no chargebacks or cancels).
Only the seller can issue a refund should they choose. For donations, I
doubt anyone expects a refund. Perhaps pre-paid credit cards would be
safe, too: max amount that could be charged depends on how much is
deposited into the account, then discard the pre-paid card unless you
want to reload it (which means a prior merchant could charge again).

I have bought product through DigitalRiver in the past, but that was
several years ago. That's where the owner wanted me to use as their
e-store. DigitalRiver isn't free, and they don't list prices at their
web site (they prefer to quote prices upon the expectation of how deep
are your pockets). I think buyers still had to use credit cards, so I'd
still use a temp or pre-paid card to DigitalRiver if I felt the need to
be safer.

On 13 Dec 2023 08:11, VanguardLH wrote:
> https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/11/the-untold-history-of-thunderbird/
> Dated Nov 2023.
>
> The 2nd article doesn't give a specific date when donations were started
> for Tbird other than to indicate donations started sometime after 2017.
> More datestamps in the article would help significantly to lock down
> when events occurred.

Quote:

By the time I [Ryan] joined in 2017, Thunderbird lived in the nonprofit
Mozilla Foundation and was governed by the Thunderbird Council, an
elected group of contributors to the project. At some point, a
Thunderbird donation form was set up and donations were high enough to
hire 3 people. A developer was hired [Jörg], someone else to keep the
infrastructure running, and a Community Manager (me).

I was that developer, hired in November 2016. I kept the project alive
single-handedly for years, repairing all the breakage coming from the
upstream Mozilla platform code:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210402042906/https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-planning/2016-December/005142.html

So please respect me as the veteran maintainer of Thunderbird during the
years 2016 to 2019.

Donations were organised by Kent James, member of the Thunderbird
Council, and they started in mid-2016.

BTW, the quoted article is very funny, being told by Ryan, a guy who I
participated in hiring. I was employee number one and also member of the
TB Council in 2016.

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better. www.betterbird.eu
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon
funktioniert's!

sticks wrote:

> I would add that I believe the fixes are also shown to the Mozilla
> people, but I'm not positive on that being 100% true.  I know for a fact
> that at least some were shared on Bugzilla forum as there was a bug of
> mine that was involved, and it appeared they actually blocked the BBird
> people.  BBird fixed it, TBird never did.

I didn't know of the "history" between Jörg and Mozilla/MZLA.

Not to take sides, but I can see how that might result in a corporate
edict of "never accept any patches from BB into TB".

On 13 Dec 2023 10:13, Andy Burns wrote:
> Not to take sides, but I can see how that might result in a corporate
> edict of "never accept any patches from BB into TB".

They are taking them left, right and centre:
https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/log?rev=betterbird
More detailed list:
https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/full-changes.txt

Guys, are you here to discuss software or politics?

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better. www.betterbird.eu
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon
funktioniert's!

On 12/12/2023 at 22:37, Wilf wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 at 13:48, AllanH wrote:
>> Home Page
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>
>> Release Notes
>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>
> Why would I want to move to Betterbird? I'm happy with TB which has a
> large number of contributors I believe, whereas I think BB is very much
> driven by a single person. That seems to me to be a potential problem
> for BB downstream. Views, please?

Thank you for the helpful replies.

--
Wilf

On 13 Dec 2023 00:52, Nobody wrote:
> Given Firefox doesn't, and Mozilla ain't exactly poor, I see no reason
> for the nag.

Since some people seem to prefer to discuss politics and finances, here
goes.

What makes you think that Mozilla isn't exactly poor?

Have you forgotten the 7% and 25% job cuts in January and August 2020?
If so: https://www.google.com.au/search?q=mozilla+sheds+employee

Have you forgotten the ever dwindling market share of Firefox?

Are you not aware of the desperate attempts of Mozilla to get onto the
AI boat (which might have left already)?
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/introducing-mozilla-ai-investing-in-trustworthy-ai/

Are you not aware that Mozilla CEO Mitchell Baker in interviews admits
that there are difficult times ahead. She hopes for support from the
(European) regulators for smaller players like Mozilla.
(Article can be supplied on request.)

Frankly, I'm always asking myself how much longer Mozilla will survive.
As I see it, Thunderbird/MZLA is the only successful enterprise under
the Mozilla umbrella ... maybe due to the nagging ;-)

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better. www.betterbird.eu
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon
funktioniert's!

On 13 Dec 2023 14:32:03 +0100 Jörg Knobloch wrote:
>
>Frankly, I'm always asking myself how much longer Mozilla will survive.
>As I see it, Thunderbird/MZLA is the only successful enterprise under
>the Mozilla umbrella ... maybe due to the nagging ;-)
>

And this: Firefox On the Brink?
<https://m.slashdot.org/story/422219>
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

On 13 Dec 2023 15:01, Dave Royal wrote:
> And this: Firefox On the Brink?
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422219>

Ouch! Close to 2% in the US, that hurts. I had 6% in the back of my
mind. It's certainly higher in some place in Europe, like Germany.

Yes, I'm noticing sites where FF doesn't work, mostly banks or
government where some access protocols they implemented (certificates,
scripts, that stuff) don't work. So far it's not a problem to use Chrome
or Edge on those sites.

The other thing I've been wondering: I see more and more Instagram
videos showing people how to save money by installing Chrome add-ons
that will do price comparisons, like on Amazon show the price history of
an item, or on Booking.com compare the price to the price on the hotel's
own website. If those add-ons don't exist for FF, it's not exactly
increasing FF's marketshare.

But we're almost totally OT here, although, if Mozilla and FF die, what
will happen to TB? 95% of its code is Mozilla platform code, with a 5%
"mail balcony" glued to the side of it. There is no TB code for
rendering a single pixel on the screen, no code for networking, no code
for the basis of the UI. All the interface code for the three OS
platforms Windows, Mac, Linux is from Mozilla. The list is endless. If
the Mozilla platform goes away, the TB folks will have a real bad time
to "rebase" to a new platform.

--
Viele Grüße, Jörg
Sent with Betterbird. Simply better. www.betterbird.eu
Es ist immer wieder erstaunlich: Kaum macht man's richtig, schon
funktioniert's!

On 12/13/23 05:34 AM, this is what Wilf wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 at 22:37, Wilf wrote:
>> On 12/12/2023 at 13:48, AllanH wrote:
>>> Home Page
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/
>>>
>>> Release Notes
>>> https://www.betterbird.eu/releasenotes/index.html
>>
>> Why would I want to move to Betterbird?  I'm happy with TB which has a
>> large number of contributors I believe, whereas I think BB is very much
>> driven by a single person.  That seems to me to be a potential problem
>> for BB downstream.   Views, please?
>
> Thank you for the helpful replies.
>
I'm sure there is some feature diff, well almost sure.
I duped my profile folder, changed as many path names in a few files (like prefs.js) from A to B and then tried it in a
really quick test.
I saw no difference between them. Of course this is it's purpose right?
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al