On 2023-10-01 14:44, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/1/23 14:24, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-10-01 12:13, Wally J wrote:
>>> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote
>>>
>>>>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship
>>>>> now,
>>>>> fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>>>>
>>>> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, terst their devices
>>>> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
>>>> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.
>>>
>>>   *All these excuses for a defective product mean Apple forgot to
>>> test it.*
>>
>> No, clown.
>>
>> It doesn't.
>>
>
> Then how did so much slip through?

There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.

Agreed?

On 10/1/23 17:25, Alan wrote:
> There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
> particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.
>
> Agreed?

If so many people have this issue then it would've come up in testing.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Oct 1, 2023, Alan Browne wrote
(in article <xQlSM.36250$%_f1.3838@fx06.iad>):

> On 2023-10-01 17:38, Alan wrote:
> > On 2023-10-01 14:13, Wally J wrote:
> > > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
> > >
> > > > No, you very clearly haven't.
> > >
> > > Well, both badgolferman and I have said we've worked on military grade
> > > software for decades but you can choose to disbelieve what we say.
> >
> > That's convenient, Clown...
> >
> > ...because we do so choose.
>
> Using terms like "military grade software" is a red flag.
>
> There is a way to say what he desperately wants to convey but since he
> said it the way he said it we know it is poppycock (at best).

Military Grade software does exist. VHDL (MIL-STD-454N) and Ada
(MIL-STD-1815) are examples. But just because something is military grade
doesn't mean it is good. Military grade means it is the cheapest made while
still meeting minimum contract specifications.

On 2023-10-01 16:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/1/23 17:25, Alan wrote:
>> There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
>> particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.
>>
>> Agreed?
>
> If so many people have this issue then it would've come up in testing.

You're so sure of that, are you?

On 2023-10-01 22:05:14 +0000, candycanearter07 said:
> On 10/1/23 16:59, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-10-01 17:43, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> On 10/1/23 16:36, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-01 16:38, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 10/1/2023 12:20 PM, Patrick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Damn Instagram.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone overheat.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL, here are the iOS apps that are downloaded the most:
>>>>> 1. TikTok
>>>>> 2. Instagram
>>>>> 3. Facebook
>>>>> 4. WhatsApp
>>>>> 5. Telegram
>>>>>
>>>>> I did see a complaint that Instagram causes Android phones to heat up
>>>>> as well. It seems like Instagram will just use as much CPU power as it
>>>>> can get. This is not really a bug in Instagram, the operating system
>>>>> should be limiting the amount of resources that an app can consume.
>>>>
>>>> Not at all.  The OS cannot tell if badly written software is doing
>>>> something useless driving up power consumption.
>>>
>>> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
>>> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage, or
>>> outright kill it.
>>
>> Some apps justifiably need a lot of CPU so the OS cannot do more that
>> allow the app / thread to run its time slice until the slice is over or
>> pre-empted by something with higher priority for which no other core is
>> available.
>>
>> Could one design an OS that applies the rule as you say?  Sure.  But
>> that is not the case in general purpose OS'.
>>
>> Could the OS detect race conditions and kill a thread (or several)?
>> Probably.  My example has no such possible state.
>>
>> And while my example might be trivial, there are cases where converging
>> on a solution with many variables can take a hell of a lot of CPU and
>> time.  And it's a very valid thing for a program to do.
>>
>> The main point is that OS' don't arbitrarily kill processes (or
>> throttle them) just because a given process is using a lot of CPU.
>
> At the very least, it should warn the user if a program is using a lot.

At the very least the user should have enough brains not to use utter
crap "Social Media" apps like Instagram. :-p

On 2023-10-01 23:04:06 +0000, candycanearter07 said:
> On 10/1/23 17:25, Alan wrote:
>>
>> There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
>> particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.
>>
>> Agreed?
>
> If so many people have this issue then it would've come up in testing.

So far, almost all the people reporting the issue have been reviewers,
many of whom by necessity of the job would be pushing the device to the
limit. There's also the likelihood that some reviewers also got early
production models so they could review the device.

On 10/1/23 18:54, Your Name wrote:
> On 2023-10-01 22:05:14 +0000, candycanearter07 said:
>> At the very least, it should warn the user if a program is using a lot.
>
> At the very least the user should have enough brains not to use utter
> crap "Social Media" apps like Instagram.  :-p
>
>

While I don't disagree, they should still have some safeguards against
rouge apps.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/1/2023 2:43 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:

> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage, or
> outright kill it.

Actually the OS _can_ stop the app from consuming excessive resources by
shutting it down. There have been complaints by developers of this
happening when the app has a legitimate need for those resources.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 10/1/23 19:22, sms wrote:
> On 10/1/2023 2:43 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
>> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage,
>> or outright kill it.
>
> Actually the OS _can_ stop the app from consuming excessive resources by
> shutting it down. There have been complaints by developers of this
> happening when the app has a legitimate need for those resources.
>

That's what I said?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2023-10-01, Dorper <usenet@dorper.me> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 2023, Alan Browne wrote
> (in article <xQlSM.36250$%_f1.3838@fx06.iad>):
>
>> On 2023-10-01 17:38, Alan wrote:
>> > On 2023-10-01 14:13, Wally J wrote:
>> > > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
>> > >
>> > > > No, you very clearly haven't.
>> > >
>> > > Well, both badgolferman and I have said we've worked on military
>> > > grade software for decades but you can choose to disbelieve what
>> > > we say.
>> >
>> > That's convenient, Clown...
>> >
>> > ...because we do so choose.
>>
>> Using terms like "military grade software" is a red flag.
>>
>> There is a way to say what he desperately wants to convey but since
>> he said it the way he said it we know it is poppycock (at best).
>
> Military Grade software does exist. VHDL (MIL-STD-454N) and Ada
> (MIL-STD-1815) are examples. But just because something is military
> grade doesn't mean it is good. Military grade means it is the cheapest
> made while still meeting minimum contract specifications.

The reason Arlen (Wally) is mentioning military grade software is
because he desperately wants to deflect from the original point which is
that Apple deploys complex system and app software to hundreds of
millions of heterogeneous devices regularly, where it is not uncommon
for bugs that affect numerous devices (albeit a relatively small number
of the total deployment base) to be found after release. Arlen and
other regular trolls in the Apple newsgroups repeatedly claim that the
fact that bugs exist in Apple software supposedly means "Apple never
tests their software" (yes, that's a direct quote), which is an
idiotic and baseless claim and completely ignores that Apple's
software teams, like many other large software teams, hold and manage
bug databases and go through traditional alpha and beta testing
phases, including public betas. They claim to know all about software
development, but turn around and claim bugs shouldn't exist. And this
says way more about them than Apple.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-10-01, candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 10/1/23 14:09, Wally J wrote:
>> It's _you_ who hasn't ever worked with software as complicated as the
>> military grade stuff both badgolferman and I worked on for decades.
>
> You've coded operating systems?? That's awesome!

In his (and your) fevered dreams.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-10-01, candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 10/1/23 17:25, Alan wrote:
>> There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
>> particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.
>>
>> Agreed?
>
> If so many people have this issue then it would've come up in testing.

Oh, it's "so many", huh? Go ahead and tell us, oh wise one, what
percentage of the 1+ billion active iPhone users have this issue. 🤡

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 12:54:57 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>> At the very least, it should warn the user if a program is using a lot.
>
> At the very least the user should have enough brains not to use utter
> crap "Social Media" apps like Instagram. :-p

This idea from Your Name is great as it will instantly solve all of Apple's
overheating iPhone 15 problems while still allowing sales to proceed.

Apple should instantly remove TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp &
Telegram from the App Store (and Apple should remove those installed).

That way Apple doesn't have to do anything else to fix the overheating
phones. Well, there is the problems of indexing and iOS 17 bugs too.

For that, Apple should turn off indexing (what does it do anyway?).
And Apple should allow the overheating iPhones to backport to iOS 16.

Problem solved thanks to Your Name!

On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:33:26 +0800, Patrick wrote:

>> At the very least the user should have enough brains not to use utter
>> crap "Social Media" apps like Instagram. :-p
>
> This idea from Your Name is great as it will instantly solve all of Apple's
> overheating iPhone 15 problems while still allowing sales to proceed.
>
> Apple should instantly remove TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp &
> Telegram from the App Store (and Apple should remove those installed).
>
> That way Apple doesn't have to do anything else to fix the overheating
> phones. Well, there is the problems of indexing and iOS 17 bugs too.
>
> For that, Apple should turn off indexing (what does it do anyway?).
> And Apple should allow the overheating iPhones to backport to iOS 16.
>
> Problem solved thanks to Your Name!

Good idea. Apple also needs to remove Uber and Asphalt 9 Legends games.
And Apple has to figure out how to turn off charging the iPhone 15 too.

As a side note, Apple has made the unusual admission that their iPhone may
feel slightly warmer but if you stop holding it - you won't feel it at all.

Apple suggests you lay the phone on a flat fire-proof surface and that you
interact with it remotely - they even sell a ten-foot long iStick for that.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 19:09:20 -0500, candycanearter07 wrote:

>> At the very least the user should have enough brains not to use utter
>> crap "Social Media" apps like Instagram.  :-p
>>
>
> While I don't disagree, they should still have some safeguards against
> rouge apps.

Apple marketing has started the new campaign to solve the problem the way
they always have solved any bad press in the news about Apple's product.

First Apple will only admit to "slight warming" of the iPhone 15 series.
Then Apple will "assure the safety" of the new iPhones so rest at ease.

Apple will issue new guidelines explaining not only how to hold it,
but also the types of Apple-approved fire-safe asbestos-free gloves to use.

These new fire-safe iPhone gloves will be called the iGlove, and will
retail for $79.99 USD if you wait outside in line at the Apple Store.

In addition, users will have the opportunity to beta test the new ten-foot
iPole that Apple is selling in various new bold colors like red & yellow.

The new iPoles will be sold for only $39.99 USD so get them now before the
bold color of your choice sells out (Sorry. Not available in plain white.)

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 17:22:58 -0700, sms wrote:

>> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
>> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage, or
>> outright kill it.
>
> Actually the OS _can_ stop the app from consuming excessive resources by
> shutting it down. There have been complaints by developers of this
> happening when the app has a legitimate need for those resources.

The only way Apple can stop this problem in software is to cut performance.

On 2023-10-01 20:51, Mickey D wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 17:22:58 -0700, sms wrote:
>
>>> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
>>> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage, or
>>> outright kill it.
>>
>> Actually the OS _can_ stop the app from consuming excessive resources by
>> shutting it down. There have been complaints by developers of this
>> happening when the app has a legitimate need for those resources.
>
> The only way Apple can stop this problem in software is to cut performance.

Clown... ...stick to one nym.

> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:33:26 +0800, Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> At the very least the user should have enough brains not to use utter
>>> crap "Social Media" apps like Instagram. :-p
>>
>> This idea from Your Name is great as it will instantly solve all of
>> Apple's overheating iPhone 15 problems while still allowing sales to
>> proceed.

People not using crappy "Social Media" would solve lots of the world's
problems in one go!

candycanearter07 wrote on 02.10.2023 00:04
>> There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
>> particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.
>>
>> Agreed?
>
> If so many people have this issue then it would've come up in testing.

I don't think Alan is correct that Apple "forgot" to test.
Apple consciously decided not to bother wasting the money to test it.

That's different.
It was a conscious decision not to test these iPhones for overheating.

It's clear there was no testing for this widespread overheating problem.
Otherwise it wouldn't be so many situations & so many of them being common.

Anyone saying it was tested has to first read that Apple said almost
everything is causing this overheating - which means they didn't test it.

None of this would have been allowed through had there been any testing.
But there wasn't any testing. That much is clear to everyone. Even Apple.

On 2023-10-01 23:06, Peter wrote:
> candycanearter07 wrote on 02.10.2023 00:04
>>> There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
>>> particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.
>>>
>>> Agreed?
>>
>> If so many people have this issue then it would've come up in testing.
>
> I don't think Alan is correct that Apple "forgot" to test.
> Apple consciously decided not to bother wasting the money to test it.
>
> That's different.
> It was a conscious decision not to test these iPhones for overheating.
>
> It's clear there was no testing for this widespread overheating problem.
> Otherwise it wouldn't be so many situations & so many of them being common.
>
> Anyone saying it was tested has to first read that Apple said almost
> everything is causing this overheating - which means they didn't test it.
>
> None of this would have been allowed through had there been any testing.
> But there wasn't any testing. That much is clear to everyone. Even Apple.

Clown:

Stick...

....to...

....one...

....nym.

On Oct 1, 2023, Alan wrote
(in article <ufdl24$2q1ir$1@dont-email.me>):
> Clown... ...stick to one nym.

On Oct 1, 2023, Alan wrote
(in article <ufdmu0$2qbmc$1@dont-email.me>):
>
> Clown:
>
> Stick...
>
> ...to...
>
> ...one...
>
> ...nym.

These aren't the same person

On 2023-10-01 23:36, Dorper wrote:
> On Oct 1, 2023, Alan wrote
> (in article <ufdl24$2q1ir$1@dont-email.me>):
>> Clown... ...stick to one nym.
>
> On Oct 1, 2023, Alan wrote
> (in article <ufdmu0$2qbmc$1@dont-email.me>):
>>
>> Clown:
>>
>> Stick...
>>
>> ...to...
>>
>> ...one...
>>
>> ...nym.
>
> These aren't the same person
>

I'll make my own judgment of that, thanks.

On 10/1/2023 5:41 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/1/23 19:22, sms wrote:
>> On 10/1/2023 2:43 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
>>> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage,
>>> or outright kill it.
>>
>> Actually the OS _can_ stop the app from consuming excessive resources
>> by shutting it down. There have been complaints by developers of this
>> happening when the app has a legitimate need for those resources.
>>
>
> That's what I said?

Sorry, I was correcting one of our favorite trolls.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 2023-10-01 18:05, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/1/23 16:59, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-10-01 17:43, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> On 10/1/23 16:36, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-01 16:38, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 10/1/2023 12:20 PM, Patrick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Damn Instagram.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone
>>>>>> overheat.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL, here are the iOS apps that are downloaded the most:
>>>>> 1. TikTok
>>>>> 2. Instagram
>>>>> 3. Facebook
>>>>> 4. WhatsApp
>>>>> 5. Telegram
>>>>>
>>>>> I did see a complaint that Instagram causes Android phones to heat
>>>>> up as well. It seems like Instagram will just use as much CPU power
>>>>> as it can get. This is not really a bug in Instagram, the operating
>>>>> system should be limiting the amount of resources that an app can
>>>>> consume.
>>>>
>>>> Not at all.  The OS cannot tell if badly written software is doing
>>>> something useless driving up power consumption.
>>>
>>> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
>>> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage,
>>> or outright kill it.
>>
>> Some apps justifiably need a lot of CPU so the OS cannot do more that
>> allow the app / thread to run its time slice until the slice is over
>> or pre-empted by something with higher priority for which no other
>> core is available.
>>
>> Could one design an OS that applies the rule as you say?  Sure.  But
>> that is not the case in general purpose OS'.
>>
>> Could the OS detect race conditions and kill a thread (or several)?
>> Probably.  My example has no such possible state.
>>
>> And while my example might be trivial, there are cases where
>> converging on a solution with many variables can take a hell of a lot
>> of CPU and time.  And it's a very valid thing for a program to do.
>>
>> The main point is that OS' don't arbitrarily kill processes (or
>> throttle them) just because a given process is using a lot of CPU.
>>
>
> At the very least, it should warn the user if a program is using a lot.

That would be an annoyance.

OTOH, iOS does provide an app power use graph in the battery section
that would help one isolate greedy apps.

There are user settings in Unix to lower the priority of a program, but
it will still get all the CPU it can that is available. Not sure if
there are internal calls in iOS so an app can have its priority lowered.
In stuff I do (barebones / no OS), I can have the scheduler assign
various priorities to threads - but even the lowest will get all it
wants if no other thread needs CPU.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-10-01 19:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/1/23 17:25, Alan wrote:
>> There is a difference between not finding a particular issue in
>> particular circumstances and "forget[ting]" to test.
>>
>> Agreed?
>
> If so many people have this issue then it would've come up in testing.

Depends on what testing is done and how the tests were designed.

If tests look for "did task BB002 complete w/o errors?" and it's
affirmative then it passes.

If tests look for "did task BB002 complete w/o errors and use little
CPU, time or result in the temperature not going up" and it's
affirmative then it passes.

Then, did the above while each of 100's of popular 3rd party apps was
also running?

This sort of thing shoots off to infinite tests pretty quickly...

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.