On 2023-10-01 12:06, Wally J wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> Thank you for admitting out loud Apple doesn┤ test their software.
>>
>> He very clearly didn't say they don't test.
>
> *Apple themselves openly admitted they didn't test it, JR*

No, they did not, Clown.

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote

>> It is because there are "millions of people" using their iPhones in
>> millions of different ways that there is no possible way that Apple
>> could test for all possible problems.
>
> It's very obvious neither badgolferman or Arlen (Wally) have ever worked
> professionally in a software team in charge of deploying software to
> massive numbers of heterogeneous clients.

Hehhehheh... ah... but we have.

Both of us have.

With extremely complicated software, Jolly Roger.

It's _you_ who hasn't ever worked with software as complicated as the
military grade stuff both badgolferman and I worked on for decades.

the most complex software you've ever touched, JR, is the toy Apple
operating systems - which have a millionth of the lines of code of teh
stuff badgolferman and I worked on for decades.

It's funny though that you think because we understand what happened, and
because you _hate_ what happened, that you blame us for what Apple did.

More to the point - you blame us for what Apple did NOT do.
*HINT: Apple forgot to sufficiently test the defective iPhones*

Again.

Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote

>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship now,
>> fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>
> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, terst their devices
> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.

*All these excuses for a defective product mean Apple forgot to test it.*
*Again*

Maybe Your Name can be excused for ignorance in that Your Name probably
didn't get a chance yet to read all the excuses Apple recently provided.

How many things did Apple blame for the overheating anyway?
*A dozen? Two dozen? Three dozen?*

*How many _different_ things did Apple again forget to test this time?*

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 17:48:50 -0700, sms wrote:
>> Do they test them against the most popular apps as rated on their own App
>> Store?
>
> That is a good point. This is different than a "computer company" trying
> to test "every single piece of third-party made software." The only
> software for the iPhone is what is on the App Store. You'd think that
> they'd at least test the most-used apps, including Instagram.

You'd think they'd test not only Instagram, but their own iOS 17 too.
They didn't.

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 21:55:25 -0500, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship
>>> now, fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>>
>> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, terst their devices
>> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
>> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.
>>
>
> Isn't there only 5-10 models of iphones supported?

Not only are there a puny set of models but the software on them is limited
to the App Store where apparently Apple didn't know Instagram even existed.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 17:46:58 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>>>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship now,
>>>> fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>>>
>>> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, test their devices
>>> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
>>> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.
>>
>> Isn't there only 5-10 models of iphones supported?
>
> Maybe, and only a couple of models that a few people reporting the heat
> problem with ... but there are millions of apps which Apple cannot
> possibly test nor be expected to.

Damn Instagram.

Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone overheat.

On 2023-10-01 12:13, Wally J wrote:
> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote
>
>>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship now,
>>> fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>>
>> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, terst their devices
>> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
>> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.
>
> *All these excuses for a defective product mean Apple forgot to test it.*

No, clown.

It doesn't.

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 17:11:35 -0700, sms wrote:

>> Why should they put all those resources into testing their software when
>> there are millions of people available to do it for free?
>
> <snip>
>
> There is just no way that they could test all the different apps in all
> the different usage scenarios. It's expected that there will be issues
> that don't turn up until the devices are in the hands of a very large
> number of users.

Did you count the number of things that Apple didn't test until now?

> What will be interesting to see is if the A17 benchmarks change once iOS
> 17 is updated to address overheating.

Of course it will.
Apple cares so much about you that they'll again "extend the life" for you.

> Kuo stated that they'd have to
> throttle the CPU in order to address the overheating, in which case the
> benchmarks could be affected.

The benchmarks are bogus.
Even more so now that the iPhone performance will require cutting.

> "Those who must not be named" insisted
> that there is no issue because not every user has reported overheating,
> though they now are aware that the issue is real. The truth will come
> out soon enough.

Apple already said they have identified many causes for the overheating.
Which means they are overheating.
Which means anyone saying they're not is disagreeing with Apple's findings.

On 2023-10-01 12:24, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 17:11:35 -0700, sms wrote:
>
>>> Why should they put all those resources into testing their software when
>>> there are millions of people available to do it for free?
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> There is just no way that they could test all the different apps in all
>> the different usage scenarios. It's expected that there will be issues
>> that don't turn up until the devices are in the hands of a very large
>> number of users.
>
> Did you count the number of things that Apple didn't test until now?
>
>> What will be interesting to see is if the A17 benchmarks change once iOS
>> 17 is updated to address overheating.
>
> Of course it will.
> Apple cares so much about you that they'll again "extend the life" for you.
>
>> Kuo stated that they'd have to
>> throttle the CPU in order to address the overheating, in which case the
>> benchmarks could be affected.
>
> The benchmarks are bogus.
> Even more so now that the iPhone performance will require cutting.
>
>> "Those who must not be named" insisted
>> that there is no issue because not every user has reported overheating,
>> though they now are aware that the issue is real. The truth will come
>> out soon enough.
>
> Apple already said they have identified many causes for the overheating.
> Which means they are overheating.
> Which means anyone saying they're not is disagreeing with Apple's findings.

Except no one has denied that... ...Clown.

On 10/1/2023 12:16 PM, Patrick wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 17:48:50 -0700, sms wrote:
>>> Do they test them against the most popular apps as rated on their own
>>> App
>>> Store?
>>
>> That is a good point. This is different than a "computer company"
>> trying to test "every single piece of third-party made software." The
>> only software for the iPhone is what is on the App Store. You'd think
>> that they'd at least test the most-used apps, including Instagram.
>
> You'd think they'd test not only Instagram, but their own iOS 17 too.
> They didn't.

iOS 17 has been out for a while. I'm on the Beta program so I've been
running it for quite a while. There haven't been any issues, that I have
heard of, with Instagram running on iOS 17 on earlier iPhone models.

There are definitely some apps out there that will max out the CPU if
they are allowed to do so, even when they are not performing what would
appear to be CPU intensive tasks. Instagram is one such app and it has
the same issue on Android devices.

Apparently there are ways for iOS to prevent excessive CPU usage and
ways to design the app to prevent excessive CPU usage, see
<https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/123975>. These come at the
expense of performance.

Since it's not possible to check over 1.6 million apps for using
excessive resources the solution is to stop the A17 Bionic from getting
so hot in the first place. Modifying the throttling temperature points
would do this. There's also the issue of the titanium frame having
poorer thermal conductivity which means more heat is being conducted out
through the glass back.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 1/10/2023, sms wrote:

> These come at the expense of performance.

The only way Apple can reduce overheating is at the expense of performance.

On 2023-10-01, Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> It is because there are "millions of people" using their iPhones in
>>> millions of different ways that there is no possible way that Apple
>>> could test for all possible problems.
>>
>> It's very obvious neither badgolferman or Arlen (Wally) have ever
>> worked professionally in a software team in charge of deploying
>> software to massive numbers of heterogeneous clients.
>
> Hehhehheh... ah... but we have.
>
> Both of us have.

No, you very clearly haven't.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-10-01, Frankie <frankie@nospam.usa> wrote:
> On 1/10/2023, sms wrote:
>
>> These come at the expense of performance.
>
> The only way Apple can reduce overheating is at the expense of
> performance.

Yes, yes. Fixing the bug that is causing excess resource usage is not an
option, guys. Frankie says so.

The pure idiocy on display here is staggering.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 10/1/2023 12:20 PM, Patrick wrote:

<snip>

> Damn Instagram.
>
> Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone overheat.

LOL, here are the iOS apps that are downloaded the most:
1. TikTok
2. Instagram
3. Facebook
4. WhatsApp
5. Telegram

I did see a complaint that Instagram causes Android phones to heat up as
well. It seems like Instagram will just use as much CPU power as it can
get. This is not really a bug in Instagram, the operating system should
be limiting the amount of resources that an app can consume.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote

> No, you very clearly haven't.

Well, both badgolferman and I have said we've worked on military grade
software for decades but you can choose to disbelieve what we say.

What you can't say is that we don't understand what happened, which is
a. Apple forgot to test the iPhone 15 for causes of overheating
b. When the shit hit the fan - only then did Apple bother to test it
c. After testing - Apple said it was tons (and tons!) of things that did it

Meaning...

*Apple forgot to sufficiently test the iPhone*

Again.

Worse...

*Apple is almost certainly going to decrease performance*

Because... (you fill in the blanks, Jolly Roger)...

ADULT QUESTION FOR JOLLY ROGER:

*How will Apple lower heat output from a CPU running too fast?*

On 2023-10-01 16:38, sms wrote:
> On 10/1/2023 12:20 PM, Patrick wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Damn Instagram.
>>
>> Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone overheat.
>
> LOL, here are the iOS apps that are downloaded the most:
> 1. TikTok
> 2. Instagram
> 3. Facebook
> 4. WhatsApp
> 5. Telegram
>
> I did see a complaint that Instagram causes Android phones to heat up as
> well. It seems like Instagram will just use as much CPU power as it can
> get. This is not really a bug in Instagram, the operating system should
> be limiting the amount of resources that an app can consume.

Not at all. The OS cannot tell if badly written software is doing
something useless driving up power consumption.

Simple example - if there is a loop that goes

double x = 33333;

while (1) {
x = 4 * atan(1) / (44.7777 / x);
if (x < 0.002) {
x = 33333;
}
}

The OS would not know it was doing useless work and the app would run
until pre-emption ... and resume the endless loop when the thread was
re-turned. This is an over-simplified example but gets to the gist of it.

So a good app would not hog thread time if it had no real work to do,
but instead would call for a Thread Sleep.

In C: usleep(10000); // 10 msec

(Note there are a lot of "sleep" variants depending on platform.

eg: This would likely be: "Thread.sleep(forTimeInterval: 0.010)" in
Swift 2 the iOS "preferred" language)

So, you're talking out of your hat. Again.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-10-01 12:18, Patrick wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 21:55:25 -0500, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship
>>>> now, fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>>>
>>> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, terst their devices
>>> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
>>> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.
>>>
>>
>> Isn't there only 5-10 models of iphones supported?
>
> Not only are there a puny set of models but the software on them is limited
> to the App Store where apparently Apple didn't know Instagram even existed.

Arlen... ...stop changing nyms, you Clown.

On 2023-10-01 14:13, Wally J wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
>
>> No, you very clearly haven't.
>
> Well, both badgolferman and I have said we've worked on military grade
> software for decades but you can choose to disbelieve what we say.

That's convenient, Clown...

....because we do so choose.

On 10/1/23 14:09, Wally J wrote:
> It's _you_ who hasn't ever worked with software as complicated as the
> military grade stuff both badgolferman and I worked on for decades.

You've coded operating systems?? That's awesome!
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/1/23 16:36, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-10-01 16:38, sms wrote:
>> On 10/1/2023 12:20 PM, Patrick wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Damn Instagram.
>>>
>>> Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone
>>> overheat.
>>
>> LOL, here are the iOS apps that are downloaded the most:
>> 1. TikTok
>> 2. Instagram
>> 3. Facebook
>> 4. WhatsApp
>> 5. Telegram
>>
>> I did see a complaint that Instagram causes Android phones to heat up
>> as well. It seems like Instagram will just use as much CPU power as it
>> can get. This is not really a bug in Instagram, the operating system
>> should be limiting the amount of resources that an app can consume.
>
> Not at all.  The OS cannot tell if badly written software is doing
> something useless driving up power consumption.

The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage, or
outright kill it.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/1/23 14:24, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-10-01 12:13, Wally J wrote:
>> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote
>>
>>>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship now,
>>>> fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>>>
>>> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, terst their devices
>>> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
>>> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.
>>
>>   *All these excuses for a defective product mean Apple forgot to test
>> it.*
>
> No, clown.
>
> It doesn't.
>

Then how did so much slip through?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2023-10-01 17:38, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-10-01 14:13, Wally J wrote:
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
>>
>>> No, you very clearly haven't.
>>
>> Well, both badgolferman and I have said we've worked on military grade
>> software for decades but you can choose to disbelieve what we say.
>
> That's convenient, Clown...
>
> ...because we do so choose.

Using terms like "military grade software" is a red flag.

There is a way to say what he desperately wants to convey but since he
said it the way he said it we know it is poppycock (at best).

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-10-01 17:43, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/1/23 16:36, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-10-01 16:38, sms wrote:
>>> On 10/1/2023 12:20 PM, Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Damn Instagram.
>>>>
>>>> Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone
>>>> overheat.
>>>
>>> LOL, here are the iOS apps that are downloaded the most:
>>> 1. TikTok
>>> 2. Instagram
>>> 3. Facebook
>>> 4. WhatsApp
>>> 5. Telegram
>>>
>>> I did see a complaint that Instagram causes Android phones to heat up
>>> as well. It seems like Instagram will just use as much CPU power as
>>> it can get. This is not really a bug in Instagram, the operating
>>> system should be limiting the amount of resources that an app can
>>> consume.
>>
>> Not at all.  The OS cannot tell if badly written software is doing
>> something useless driving up power consumption.
>
> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage, or
> outright kill it.

Some apps justifiably need a lot of CPU so the OS cannot do more that
allow the app / thread to run its time slice until the slice is over or
pre-empted by something with higher priority for which no other core is
available.

Could one design an OS that applies the rule as you say? Sure. But
that is not the case in general purpose OS'.

Could the OS detect race conditions and kill a thread (or several)?
Probably. My example has no such possible state.

And while my example might be trivial, there are cases where converging
on a solution with many variables can take a hell of a lot of CPU and
time. And it's a very valid thing for a program to do.

The main point is that OS' don't arbitrarily kill processes (or throttle
them) just because a given process is using a lot of CPU.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-10-01 17:44, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/1/23 14:24, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-10-01 12:13, Wally J wrote:
>>> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote
>>>
>>>>> Because people expect polish?? What kind of argument is this? Ship
>>>>> now,
>>>>> fix later is hated by consumers for a reason.
>>>>
>>>> No computer company on the planet does, nor can, terst their devices
>>>> against every single piece of third-party made software and hardware.
>>>> It's not remotely sensible for anyone to expect them to either.
>>>
>>>   *All these excuses for a defective product mean Apple forgot to
>>> test it.*
>>
>> No, clown.
>>
>> It doesn't.
>>
>
> Then how did so much slip through?

General purpose appliance for the masses.

It's a miracle so few bugs do.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 10/1/23 16:59, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-10-01 17:43, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> On 10/1/23 16:36, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-01 16:38, sms wrote:
>>>> On 10/1/2023 12:20 PM, Patrick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> Damn Instagram.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is it always the app that nobody uses that makes the iPhone
>>>>> overheat.
>>>>
>>>> LOL, here are the iOS apps that are downloaded the most:
>>>> 1. TikTok
>>>> 2. Instagram
>>>> 3. Facebook
>>>> 4. WhatsApp
>>>> 5. Telegram
>>>>
>>>> I did see a complaint that Instagram causes Android phones to heat
>>>> up as well. It seems like Instagram will just use as much CPU power
>>>> as it can get. This is not really a bug in Instagram, the operating
>>>> system should be limiting the amount of resources that an app can
>>>> consume.
>>>
>>> Not at all.  The OS cannot tell if badly written software is doing
>>> something useless driving up power consumption.
>>
>> The operating system controls thread scheduling and memory. They can
>> just lower the apps priority if its past a certain usage percentage,
>> or outright kill it.
>
> Some apps justifiably need a lot of CPU so the OS cannot do more that
> allow the app / thread to run its time slice until the slice is over or
> pre-empted by something with higher priority for which no other core is
> available.
>
> Could one design an OS that applies the rule as you say?  Sure.  But
> that is not the case in general purpose OS'.
>
> Could the OS detect race conditions and kill a thread (or several)?
> Probably.  My example has no such possible state.
>
> And while my example might be trivial, there are cases where converging
> on a solution with many variables can take a hell of a lot of CPU and
> time.  And it's a very valid thing for a program to do.
>
> The main point is that OS' don't arbitrarily kill processes (or throttle
> them) just because a given process is using a lot of CPU.
>

At the very least, it should warn the user if a program is using a lot.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom