Install iOS 17.4.1 now to patch 2 new zero-day vulnerabilities.
https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/you-should-update-your-iphone-to-ios-17-4-1-before-ios-17-5-is-released/

While Apple is beta testing iOS 17.5 (which should be released soon), you
want to download iOS 17.4.1 now to patch two new iOS zero-day
vulnerabilities which Google's Project Zero found & reported to Apple.

After Apple first conclusively confirmed that their engineering department
testing group missed these two vulnerabilities in their testing procedures,
Apple wrote in the update's CVE entry -- which stands for common
vulnerabilities and exposures -- that iOS 17.4.1 addresses two issues that
could lead to arbitrary code execution. According to the IT services
company Okta, arbitrary code execution could allow a third party to steal
your data or hack your device for other nefarious purposes.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT214097

As is often the case, Google reported these 2 new 0-day vulnerabilities to
Apple during Project Zero testing of the iOS and macOS operating systems.

Enrico Papaloma <enrico@papaloma.net> wrote:
> Install iOS 17.4.1 now to patch 2 new zero-day vulnerabilities.

You're a month late. 17.4.1 was released a month ago.

On 4/24/2024 4:51 PM, Chris wrote:
>> Install iOS 17.4.1 now to patch 2 new zero-day vulnerabilities.
>
> You're a month late. 17.4.1 was released a month ago.

The article is dated "April 24, 2024 3:00 a.m. PT" as it's advice to people
who would normally skip the 17.4.1 release since many people wait for 17.5.

The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they were
intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.

These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in testing.

CoreMedia
Available for: iPhone XS and later, iPad Pro 12.9-inch 2nd generation and
later, iPad Pro 10.5-inch, iPad Pro 11-inch 1st generation and later, iPad
Air 3rd generation and later, iPad 6th generation and later, and iPad mini
5th generation and later
Impact: Processing an image may lead to arbitrary code execution
Description: An out-of-bounds write issue was addressed with improved input
validation.
CVE-2024-1580: Nick Galloway of Google Project Zero

WebRTC
Available for: iPhone XS and later, iPad Pro 12.9-inch 2nd generation and
later, iPad Pro 10.5-inch, iPad Pro 11-inch 1st generation and later, iPad
Air 3rd generation and later, iPad 6th generation and later, and iPad mini
5th generation and later
Impact: Processing an image may lead to arbitrary code execution
Description: An out-of-bounds write issue was addressed with improved input
validation.
CVE-2024-1580: Nick Galloway of Google Project Zero

What is arbitrary code execution?
https://www.okta.com/identity-101/arbitrary-code-execution/

Enrico Papaloma <enrico@papaloma.net> wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 4:51 PM, Chris wrote:
>>> Install iOS 17.4.1 now to patch 2 new zero-day vulnerabilities.
>>
>> You're a month late. 17.4.1 was released a month ago.
>
> The article is dated "April 24, 2024 3:00 a.m. PT" as it's advice to people
> who would normally skip the 17.4.1 release since many people wait for 17.5.
>
> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they were
> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.

There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.

> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in testing.

Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.

On 4/24/2024 9:36 PM, Chris wrote:
>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they were
>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>
> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.

But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.

>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in testing.
>
> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.

One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
that updates are happening due to A/B partitions. Sadly iOS isn't that OS.
https://www.xda-developers.com/how-to-check-android-device-supports-seamless-updates/

But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).

Enrico Papaloma <enrico@papaloma.net> wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 9:36 PM, Chris wrote:
>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they were
>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>
>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>
> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.

Still not a reason to wait. The slowdown - if it even exists - is
temporary. I can understand waiting a day or two to see any real-world
issues shakes out, but not over a month.

>>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in testing.
>>
>> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.
>
> One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
> that updates are happening due to A/B partitions.

Which causes its own problems.

On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 9:36 PM, Chris wrote:
>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they were
>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>
>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>
> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.
>
>>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in testing.
>>
>> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.
>
> One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
> that updates are happening due to A/B partitions. Sadly iOS isn't that OS.
> https://www.xda-developers.com/how-to-check-android-device-supports-seamless-updates/
>
> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).

These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority of
users.

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.

Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>> On 4/24/2024 9:36 PM, Chris wrote:
>>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they
>>>> were
>>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>>
>>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>>
>> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.
>>
>>>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in
>>>> testing.
>>>
>>> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.
>>
>> One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
>> that updates are happening due to A/B partitions. Sadly iOS isn't that OS.
>> https://www.xda-developers.com/how-to-check-android-device-supports-seamless-updates/
>>
>>
>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>
> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority of users.
>

Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not Super
USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.

The apple walled garden works fairly well for us. We are not trying to
destroy apple. We do not care about the minutia of apple's imarket, istock
prices, isales statistics ... nor any other ibullshit.

In fact we don't give a shit about apple itself. We are only concerned with
using our apple device and learning about it's behavior and how to solve
problems that may arise. I have a fridgidare refrigerator, but I feel no
urge to defend that company against anybody that says it's bad. I'm damn
sure glad it wasn't made by apple.

This group seems dedicated to quarreling over apple's statistical minutia,
and trading sophomoric insults.

Once in a great while, an honest question will be helpfully answered. A
miracle. Occasionally, even a loyal apple cultist might provide such a
helpful answer. But this is GODDAMN RARE. Usually, the reply is an attempt
to start another new iquarrel. This is an ishame.

To those who are knowledgeable:

Please try to help people with your knowledge. Try to remember that
sometimes, they are trying to learn, NOT attacking your GODS. You can
answer without destroying apple.

If you die tomorrow, Apple will survive, many years after worms have eaten
your ibrain.

On 2024-04-25 18:49, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:

>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>
>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority
>> of users.
>>
>
> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not
> Super USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>
> The apple walled garden

There is no "walled garden" except in the fevered brains of a small
number of anguished Android types.

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.

Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2024-04-25 18:49, Hank Rogers wrote:
>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>
>>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>>
>>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority of
>>> users.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not
>> Super USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>>
>> The apple walled garden
>
> There is no "walled garden" except in the fevered brains of a small number
> of anguished Android types.
>

You just proved my point.

People who buy android devices are truly evil. Their only motive is to
destroy apple! Like people that use windows ... they are working to destroy
linux and macOS. Bastards!

Long live igarden!

On 2024-04-25 19:46, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2024-04-25 18:49, Hank Rogers wrote:
>>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>>
>>>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has
>>>>> enjoyed for
>>>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>>>
>>>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority
>>>> of users.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not
>>> Super USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>>>
>>> The apple walled garden
>>
>> There is no "walled garden" except in the fevered brains of a small
>> number of anguished Android types.
>>
>
> You just proved my point.

.... er, no. Just gave you incentive for another stream of
conscienceless ....

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.

Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2024-04-25 18:49, Hank Rogers wrote:
>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>
>>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>>
>>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority of
>>> users.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not
>> Super USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>>
>> The apple walled garden
>
> There is no "walled garden" except in the fevered brains of a small number
> of anguished Android types.
>

So, Android is a mortal enemy. We have to attack android and defend the
holy apple.

I think I've got it now. Thanks.

Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2024-04-25 19:46, Hank Rogers wrote:
>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-25 18:49, Hank Rogers wrote:
>>>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>>>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>>>>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>>>>
>>>>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority
>>>>> of users.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not
>>>> Super USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>>>>
>>>> The apple walled garden
>>>
>>> There is no "walled garden" except in the fevered brains of a small
>>> number of anguished Android types.
>>>
>>
>> You just proved my point.
>
> ... er, no.  Just gave you incentive for another stream of conscienceless ....
>

Patriotism is when love of Apple comes first; And hate for Android comes
second.
- Alan Browne.

On 4/25/2024 5:30 PM, Chris wrote:
>>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they were
>>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>>
>>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>>
>> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.
>
> Still not a reason to wait.

I'm not disagreeing with you that people should not wait.
But they do wait.

You have to ask yourself WHY those people wait.
Why do YOU think they wait?

> The slowdown - if it even exists - is
> temporary. I can understand waiting a day or two to see any real-world
> issues shakes out, but not over a month.

The iPhone update slowdown doesn't always exist but it often exists.
It's even worse with iOS upgrades than with the more numerous updates.

You know this because you have experienced it.
Everyone has.

>>>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in testing.
>>>
>>> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.
>>
>> One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
>> that updates are happening due to A/B partitions.
>
> Which causes its own problems.

The way iOS updates is different from how every other platform updates.

Specifically, Android updates monthly over the Internet where the only
people who even notice that the OS has been updated are those who delve
into the settings to notice the security date continually increments.

Windows also updates monthly over the Internet where most people notice it
because it says what it's doing (much like iOS says what it's doing).

Android updates are monthly for years & seamless. iOS updates are not.

On 25/4/2024, Hank Rogers wrote:

>> There is no "walled garden" except in the fevered brains of a small number
>> of anguished Android types.
>>
>
> So, Android is a mortal enemy. We have to attack android and defend the
> holy apple.
>
> I think I've got it now. Thanks.

There is no walled garden. And the earth is flat. Says so in the Bible.
EOD

In comp.mobile.ipad Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2024 9:36 PM, Chris wrote:
>>>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they
>>>>> were
>>>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>>>
>>>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>>>
>>> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>>> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.
>>>
>>>>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in
>>>>> testing.
>>>>
>>>> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.
>>>
>>> One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
>>> that updates are happening due to A/B partitions. Sadly iOS isn't that OS.
>>> https://www.xda-developers.com/how-to-check-android-device-supports-seamless-updates/
>>>
>>>
>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>
>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority of users.
>
> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not Super
> USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.

+1 this. I've used Android and Apple phones/tablets. NEITHER was ever
intended as a power-user device. Phones and tablets fall very much in
the "appliance" category for me (AppleIance?). I did try to do photo
editing and organization and use the iPad as primary computing device
for a while. It was not very successful, mostly because the organization
aspect was very lacking.

I ended up with Apple devices because I got tired of the various
annoyances with Android, because I at best tolerate Windows, and Linux
doesn't really cut it for the photo editing side of things.
iOS/iPadOS/MacOS solved some of those annoyances, but
the trade off is different annoyances. I can live with them.

> The apple walled garden works fairly well for us. We are not trying to
> destroy apple. We do not care about the minutia of apple's imarket, istock
> prices, isales statistics ... nor any other ibullshit.

Exactly. Nothing I choose to do with a tablet or phone is limited by
being within a walled garden. For those, I just want them to work
reasonably well when they need to.

The real work gets done on the Mac, or my work Windows laptop, or a
small BSD virtual machine which runs the "old school" stuff like 'tin'
newsreader in a terminal (and I can login to that from the iPad or
iPhone if I want to, even remotely over a VPN).

If I want to tinker around with a system, I've got plenty of them to
choose from that are capable of such, and can emulate just about
anything I feel like on the Mac.

> This group seems dedicated to quarreling over apple's statistical minutia,
> and trading sophomoric insults.

I just came back to Usenet after probably 25 years away. Such it was
then, such it remains (just with fewer people left to flame each other).
Oh well. :)

--
Paul.

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 22:11:04 -0000 (UTC), paul@paulglover.net.invalid
wrote:

>> The apple walled garden works fairly well for us. We are not trying to
>> destroy apple. We do not care about the minutia of apple's imarket, istock
>> prices, isales statistics ... nor any other ibullshit.
>
> Exactly. Nothing I choose to do with a tablet or phone is limited by
> being within a walled garden. For those, I just want them to work
> reasonably well when they need to.

The pre-Galilean Pope decreed that the sun revolves around the earth.

There is nothing wrong with you thinking that the sun revolves around the
earth as long as it works for you, just as you seeming to be saying that
the infamous walled garden doesn't hinder your efforts with a tablet or
phone isn't wrong - as long as it works for you.

But the fact you said it means you don't actually do anything with that
tablet or phone that Apple hasn't scripted for you because the walled
garden very much is debilitating if you did.

It's like someone who thinks the earth revolves around the moon isn't
actually ever going to get a spaceship to the moon thinking that way.

Because the number of rather useful things that everyone else can do but
which the walled garden prevents you from doing is absolutely astounding.

On 2024-04-26 22:11:04 +0000, paul@paulglover.net.invalid said:

> In comp.mobile.ipad Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2024 9:36 PM, Chris wrote:
>>>>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>>>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>>>>
>>>> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>>>> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.
>>>>
>>>>>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in
>>>>>> testing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.
>>>>
>>>> One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
>>>> that updates are happening due to A/B partitions. Sadly iOS isn't that OS.
>>>> https://www.xda-developers.com/how-to-check-android-device-supports-seamless-updates/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>>
>>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority of users.
>>
>> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not Super
>> USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>
> +1 this. I've used Android and Apple phones/tablets. NEITHER was ever
> intended as a power-user device. Phones and tablets fall very much in
> the "appliance" category for me (AppleIance?). I did try to do photo
> editing and organization and use the iPad as primary computing device
> for a while. It was not very successful, mostly because the organization
> aspect was very lacking.
<snip>

Despite Apple's attempts to claim otherwise, the iPad is not and cannot
be a computer replacement for many reasons. The main one being that fat
fingers are a hopelessly inaccurate input device. The Pencil or similar
stylus (that Steve Jobs abhored when the iPad first launched) make is a
bit better, but your hands are still in the way of the display so it is
still nowhere near as good as a mouse, trackpad, or separate graphics
tablet.

paul@paulglover.net.invalid wrote:
> In comp.mobile.ipad Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2024 9:36 PM, Chris wrote:
>>>>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>>>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>>>>
>>>> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>>>> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.
>>>>
>>>>>> These are the 2 0-day holes that Google found that Apple missed in
>>>>>> testing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why all updates should be installed. Doesn't matter which OS.
>>>>
>>>> One smartphone OS does "seamless updates" where the user isn't even aware
>>>> that updates are happening due to A/B partitions. Sadly iOS isn't that OS.
>>>> https://www.xda-developers.com/how-to-check-android-device-supports-seamless-updates/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has enjoyed for
>>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>>
>>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority of users.
>>
>> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not Super
>> USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>
> +1 this. I've used Android and Apple phones/tablets. NEITHER was ever
> intended as a power-user device. Phones and tablets fall very much in
> the "appliance" category for me (AppleIance?). I did try to do photo
> editing and organization and use the iPad as primary computing device
> for a while. It was not very successful, mostly because the organization
> aspect was very lacking.
>
> I ended up with Apple devices because I got tired of the various
> annoyances with Android, because I at best tolerate Windows, and Linux
> doesn't really cut it for the photo editing side of things.
> iOS/iPadOS/MacOS solved some of those annoyances, but
> the trade off is different annoyances. I can live with them.
>
>
>> The apple walled garden works fairly well for us. We are not trying to
>> destroy apple. We do not care about the minutia of apple's imarket, istock
>> prices, isales statistics ... nor any other ibullshit.
>
> Exactly. Nothing I choose to do with a tablet or phone is limited by
> being within a walled garden. For those, I just want them to work
> reasonably well when they need to.
>
> The real work gets done on the Mac, or my work Windows laptop, or a
> small BSD virtual machine which runs the "old school" stuff like 'tin'
> newsreader in a terminal (and I can login to that from the iPad or
> iPhone if I want to, even remotely over a VPN).
>
> If I want to tinker around with a system, I've got plenty of them to
> choose from that are capable of such, and can emulate just about
> anything I feel like on the Mac.
>
>
>> This group seems dedicated to quarreling over apple's statistical minutia,
>> and trading sophomoric insults.
>
> I just came back to Usenet after probably 25 years away. Such it was
> then, such it remains (just with fewer people left to flame each other).
> Oh well. :)
>

Yes. I think the majority of users get good service from their apple
devices. I certainly do. Sometimes they might not work for a particular
task, but I don't get upset, I just boot up a computer and do the job.

But I do not, and will not, religiously worship the company, join any
cults, nor vigorously defend their every action. I just don't give a shit.
It's just tool, an appliance.

Enrico Papaloma <enrico@papaloma.net> wrote:
> On 4/25/2024 5:30 PM, Chris wrote:
>>>>> The advice is that these iOS zero-day holes that Apple didn't find are so
>>>>> severe, the recommendation is for iPhone owners to update even if they were
>>>>> intending to wait for iOS 17.5 before running yet another update cycle.
>>>>
>>>> There's no reason to wait that long to install updates.
>>>
>>> But a lot of people do wait, for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>>> which is the way iPhones are updated can cause a variety of slowdowns.
>>
>> Still not a reason to wait.
>
> I'm not disagreeing with you that people should not wait.
> But they do wait.
>
> You have to ask yourself WHY those people wait.
> Why do YOU think they wait?

No idea. Misinformation that's propagated online, probably.

>> The slowdown - if it even exists - is
>> temporary. I can understand waiting a day or two to see any real-world
>> issues shakes out, but not over a month.
>
> The iPhone update slowdown doesn't always exist but it often exists.
> It's even worse with iOS upgrades than with the more numerous updates.
>
> You know this because you have experienced it.
> Everyone has.

Nope never.

Oscar Mayer <nobody@oscarmayer.com> wrote:
>
>
> But the fact you said it means you don't actually do anything with that
> tablet or phone that Apple hasn't scripted for you because the walled
> garden very much is debilitating if you did.

"Debilitating" rofl

> It's like someone who thinks the earth revolves around the moon isn't
> actually ever going to get a spaceship to the moon thinking that way.

How many people fly to the moon...?

> Because the number of rather useful things that everyone else can do but
> which the walled garden prevents you from doing is absolutely astounding.

"Everyone else" being tech nerds who like to tinker. Everyone else truly
just want something that works for Snapchat, tiktok and instagram.

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:58:32 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

>> But the fact you said it means you don't actually do anything with that
>> tablet or phone that Apple hasn't scripted for you because the walled
>> garden very much is debilitating if you did.
>
> "Debilitating" rofl

Again, if you only use the iPhone for basic things like playing games, then
you won't notice how debilitating the walled garden truly is when you want
to do things that everyone else does without even thinking about doing it.

>> It's like someone who thinks the earth revolves around the moon isn't
>> actually ever going to get a spaceship to the moon thinking that way.
>
> How many people fly to the moon...?

The number of things that every operating system except iOS does that iOS
doesn't do is so large that it's debilitating to use an iPhone after you've
used Android with any other operating system, including Linux & Windows.

>> Because the number of rather useful things that everyone else can do but
>> which the walled garden prevents you from doing is absolutely astounding.
>
> "Everyone else" being tech nerds who like to tinker. Everyone else truly
> just want something that works for Snapchat, tiktok and instagram.

What if you want to plug any phone you want into any Windows or Linux PC
you want where you can copy files back and forth to anywhere you want?

Every other operating system can do that except iOS.

On 4/27/2024 8:53 AM, Chris wrote:
>> You know this because you have experienced it.
>> Everyone has.
>
> Nope never.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

To deny that there are slowdowns after updating/upgrading iOS is to deny
what many people have & even Apple has documented to often be the case.

In comp.mobile.ipad Oscar Mayer <nobody@oscarmayer.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 22:11:04 -0000 (UTC), paul@paulglover.net.invalid
> wrote:
>
>>> The apple walled garden works fairly well for us. We are not trying to
>>
>> Exactly. Nothing I choose to do with a tablet or phone is limited by
>> being within a walled garden. For those, I just want them to work
>
> The pre-Galilean Pope decreed that the sun revolves around the earth.
>
> There is nothing wrong with you thinking that the sun revolves around the
> earth as long as it works for you, just as you seeming to be saying that
> the infamous walled garden doesn't hinder your efforts with a tablet or
> phone isn't wrong - as long as it works for you.

And yet, you're choosing an analogy in which one of the options is
very demonstrably wrong. The earth orbits the sun. Period. Anyone
who says otherwise is obviously crazy. Ergo, anyone who disagrees with
you must be crazy. Right? ;-)

Whereas in reality, what one person needs their tablet to do is very
different to another. Neither is actually wrong, unless they stubbornly
refuse to accept that a particular device has limits which make it
unsuitable for *their* needs.

Where they get very sideways indeed is when they INSIST that everyone
else should be upset because a device can't do something that only they
care about. Your experience is not theirs, and vice-versa. Most people
have quite limited use cases for a tablet device, and so never come
close to hitting the limits. They just don't care about the things you
care about.

> But the fact you said it means you don't actually do anything with that
> tablet or phone that Apple hasn't scripted for you because the walled
> garden very much is debilitating if you did.

To be fair, you do have a point here. If I stubbornly insisted on trying
to use my iPad for things it isn't able or lacks the software tools to
do, it would be debilitating.

But I do not, because it's really about using the right tool for the
job and I have plenty of other tools that are suitable.

The thing you ignored here is that I was actually surprised at what I
*could* do with an iPad. As for the things I could not? Those mostly
came down to lack of storage space and lack of specific software tools,
not any apparent Apple imposed limits.

As far as I can tell, Apple wasn't stopping anyone from writing a
digital asset management tool for the iPad.

The only limit I did run into that was related directly to Apple policy
was emulating old computers (no emulation allowed). Didn't they just
remove that limit?

> It's like someone who thinks the earth revolves around the moon isn't
> actually ever going to get a spaceship to the moon thinking that way.

Not entirely sure what your point is here.

I suppose the real world version of that analogy is that, lacking an
iPad native digital asset management system written by someone else, I
should have just gone ahead and written my own so I could have used the
iPad for everything? Which I could not have done using just an iPad, so
I'd have been stuck, because this is all taking place in some fever
dream where I have nothing but an iPad and iPhone available?

No thanks. Someone else can take care of that sort of moonshot.

> Because the number of rather useful things that everyone else can do but
> which the walled garden prevents you from doing is absolutely astounding.

I'm genuinely curious what it is that you are trying to do which you
cannot because of the "walled garden". Or what you're presuming that
I've been limited from being able to do?

The list of things I've found which I could not adequately do with just
an iPad is not "absolutely astounding" at all:

1. Digital photo library management. IPhoto sucks at this. Flash storage
isn't enough for ingesting large cards full of images. Nobody has
written software to do this properly on an iPad.

2. Developing iPad software on the iPad. Except I don't have time for
this as a hobby now (after 30 years of programming for a living, the
last thing I want to do is more of the same in my spare time!) I have
Xcode on my Mac. I never use it. I could certainly see this one being
upsetting to some people, though.

3. Playing emulated classic games.

That makes three things I could not do. Three. One of which I didn't
really have time for anyway. I'm sure there are others, but if so, they
aren't things I personally needed to do.

What about things I *could* do on an iPad? Just a sampling:

Photo editing. Video editing. Thin client remote desktop to Windows and
Mac. Vector art. Page layout. Text editing. Anything I can connect to
with an SSH client (which includes the BSD VM running a copy of tin
newsreader that I'm logged into right now to write this reply to you).
Email, web, listening to music, reading e-books, planning an
astrophotography/stargazing evening, watching movies and TV shows,
doomscrolling through endless sponsored posts on Instagram, playing
games. Task management, calendar management. Additional display for the
Mac, with the ability to interact with Mac apps using an Apple Pencil (I
always wanted a graphics tablet which showed the content right there as
you edited it, now I have one.) Lots and lots of other things, because I
can't be bothered listing all of what I am able to do with this iPad.
It's a lot, and life is too short for that.

So excuse me if I don't feel limited by whatever it is you seem to think
Apple doesn't want me to do with their device. If that means I'm not
being ambitious enough for your liking, well... I don't care :)

--
Paul.

On 2024-04-25 19:51, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2024-04-25 18:49, Hank Rogers wrote:
>>> Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-25 05:37, Enrico Papaloma wrote:
>>
>>>>> But iOS is getting better with the advent of real patches in iOS 16 so
>>>>> maybe Apple will add the seamless updates that the other has
>>>>> enjoyed for
>>>>> years (where the OS updates monthly without the user even knowing it).
>>>>
>>>> These "features" are actually not missed on iOS by the vast majority
>>>> of users.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly. Many of us just use apple stuff as an appliance. We are not
>>> Super USERS. We are not Apple cult fans.
>>>
>>> The apple walled garden
>>
>> There is no "walled garden" except in the fevered brains of a small
>> number of anguished Android types.
>>
>
> So, Android is a mortal enemy.

Your bloviation, not mine.

>We have to attack android and defend the
> holy apple.

More useful is to ignore the few Android users who complain about Apple
ceaselessly for little reason.

>
> I think I've got it now. Thanks.

You don't think. You certainly don't "got it".

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.