Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(

Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
--
"Ants can lift up to 50 times their own weight. And your monitor is missing. Time to bring out the bugspray." --BBspot's Geek Horoscopes (2/28/2003)
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
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Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>
> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Ant wrote:
> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>
> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

Windows 7 is out of support, so you might need version 11.9
and have the thing download the updates for you. I have
a version 9.6 (with a fileset in the client folder that
the tool downloaded) that I use to patch up VMs with.

https://download.wsusoffline.net/

There is some sort of hack, so that Windows Update will work
with processors later than Skylake.

But I'm not sure that it's necessary if you use the Client-folder
update in that tool. That tool downloads the updates directly
from Microsoft as .cab files and the like.

Probably the main reason to restore Windows Update to
working state (via hack), is so the Optional Updates work
and you can get Certificates.

So if you bought a Coffee Lake and installed Windows 7 SP1,
chances are some sort of notation would appear in Windows Update
to the effect that "this CPU is not supported". There's
a discussion here of some tool for rolling back the update
that sticks a fork in it.

https://www.sevenforums.com/general-discussion/416739-kaby-lake-coffee-lake-win-7-a.html

I don't have any hardware modern enough to "offend" Windows 7,
so don't have experimental materials for checking out how
to update to EOL state.

If the "kit" you purchase, doesn't have a working AHCI driver
solution for the Southbridge, you may have to switch the
UEFI BIOS to MSIDE mode. Perhaps by now, Intel has
trashed that too, as part of its campaign of harassment.
Never underestimate the depths they'll go to.

I'm finding all sorts of stuff missing. I can only do a Win10 WADK
now, the Win 7 and Win8 WADK downloads have been trashed by Microsoft.
All I want it the Performance Analysis Tools, like WPA or xperf, not
the whole thing. But the mothers have trashed it, and the Win10 version
of WADK won't run on Windows 7. Has a version number baked into it.
These are materials that properly belonged on a DVD, but they
decided being "Cloud Fuckers", they would offer a downloader,
then they remove the files and leave you high and dry. You would
have to know their evil plan in advance to do 12GB of presumptive
downloads for a day like today.

Maybe you should just switch to Linux instead and be done with it.

Paul

Sailfish wrote:
> Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>
>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>
> Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
> Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.
>

8900 XPS is "sixth generation" and according to this, that
is a Skylake processor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core

And Kaby Lake in the listing, seventh generation, is the
first one not supported by Microsoft for Win7. What it means, is
the injection of a bogus setting in Windows Update, to
disable Windows Update if your Kaby Lake is detected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7

"In January 2016, Microsoft announced that it would no longer support
Windows platforms older than Windows 10 on any future Intel-compatible
processor lines, citing difficulties in reliably allowing the operating
system to operate on newer hardware. Microsoft stated that effective
July 17, 2017, devices with Intel Skylake CPUs were only to receive the
"most critical" updates for Windows 7 and 8.1, and only if they have
been judged not to affect the reliability of Windows 7 on older hardware."

It was a bit later, before a significant change to CPU design
(faster power state changes) came along, to perhaps justify that
stance. I bet Kaby Lake runs "just fine" on there :-)

As for Microsofts work under the hood, they used to make claims
about "how they'd changed the scheduler", on topics such
as NUMA, then when people tested, they would discover no
change in behavior at all. An example of this bozo behavior
is even evident in Windows 10, where if the core count gets
high enough to exceed a "processor group" of 64 cores,
the OS doesn't make good usage of them. It takes
an installation of the Workstation SKU to be able
to profit from the cores. So if you had a 64C 128T processor,
if you enable HyperThreading, the 128 number is greater than
64 and requires two processor groups, and the performance
tails off in things like 7ZIP compressor. Whereas the heat map
in Task Manager might have room for 192 tiles, "hinting" the
OS was "ready for 192 cores", which it was discovered by
enthusiast web sites, it was not all that ready. When the
enthusiast sites benchmarked Pro and Workstation, the Pro
had a kink in the curve after 64 cores (cores as counted in
Task Manager).

If we could peer under the bed covers, you will see
three things under the sheets. Microsoft, Intel, AMD.
Packets of money go from two of the parties, to one
of the parties for "testing funds". If two of the
parties are unwilling to fork over the Reddies,
the result is the knobbling of the OS so you can't use it.
They're not "pals", they "partners" with wodges of cash
here and there.

Microsoft has historically done stuff for money. For
$150 million, they will put Windows on PowerPC for you,
as an example of the dollar-magnitude. It's only when it
is in their own best interests, they do ARM for free.
If you wanted Windows ported to MIPS (CPUs used in routers),
then that would cost you. The figure could be two or three
times that amount, today.

Paul

On Tue, 11 May 2021 23:27:23 -0500, Ant wrote:
> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>
> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

No. Windows 7, Windows XP or even DOS, can still run on latest hardwares.

The likely problem is when you use additional device. Whether their
manufacturer still provide a driver for your OS version or not.

However, if gaming experience is a priority, Windows 10 is highly
recommended. Otherwise, you can keep your old OS and use it on newer
hardwares.

JJ wrote:
> On Tue, 11 May 2021 23:27:23 -0500, Ant wrote:
>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>
>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>
> No. Windows 7, Windows XP or even DOS, can still run on latest hardwares.
>
> The likely problem is when you use additional device. Whether their
> manufacturer still provide a driver for your OS version or not.
>
> However, if gaming experience is a priority, Windows 10 is highly
> recommended. Otherwise, you can keep your old OS and use it on newer
> hardwares.

It's not as recommended as it once was.

There was a report of a reduced gaming frame rate
right after the last Windows 10 monthly updates.

Paul

Paul graced us with on 5/11/2021 10:36 PM:
> Sailfish wrote:
>> Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>
>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>
>> Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
>> Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.
>>
>
> 8900 XPS is "sixth generation" and according to this, that
> is a Skylake processor.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core
>
> And Kaby Lake in the listing, seventh generation, is the
> first one not supported by Microsoft for Win7. What it means, is
> the injection of a bogus setting in Windows Update, to
> disable Windows Update if your Kaby Lake is detected.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7
>
> "In January 2016, Microsoft announced that it would no longer support
> Windows platforms older than Windows 10 on any future Intel-compatible
> processor lines, citing difficulties in reliably allowing the operating
> system to operate on newer hardware. Microsoft stated that effective
> July 17, 2017, devices with Intel Skylake CPUs were only to receive the
> "most critical" updates for Windows 7 and 8.1, and only if they have
> been judged not to affect the reliability of Windows 7 on older
> hardware."
>
> It was a bit later, before a significant change to CPU design
> (faster power state changes) came along, to perhaps justify that
> stance. I bet Kaby Lake runs "just fine" on there :-)
>
> As for Microsofts work under the hood, they used to make claims
> about "how they'd changed the scheduler", on topics such
> as NUMA, then when people tested, they would discover no
> change in behavior at all. An example of this bozo behavior
> is even evident in Windows 10, where if the core count gets
> high enough to exceed a "processor group" of 64 cores,
> the OS doesn't make good usage of them. It takes
> an installation of the Workstation SKU to be able
> to profit from the cores. So if you had a 64C 128T processor,
> if you enable HyperThreading, the 128 number is greater than
> 64 and requires two processor groups, and the performance
> tails off in things like 7ZIP compressor. Whereas the heat map
> in Task Manager might have room for 192 tiles, "hinting" the
> OS was "ready for 192 cores", which it was discovered by
> enthusiast web sites, it was not all that ready. When the
> enthusiast sites benchmarked Pro and Workstation, the Pro
> had a kink in the curve after 64 cores (cores as counted in
> Task Manager).
>
> If we could peer under the bed covers, you will see
> three things under the sheets. Microsoft, Intel, AMD.
> Packets of money go from two of the parties, to one
> of the parties for "testing funds". If two of the
> parties are unwilling to fork over the Reddies,
> the result is the knobbling of the OS so you can't use it.
> They're not "pals", they "partners" with wodges of cash
> here and there.
>
> Microsoft has historically done stuff for money. For
> $150 million, they will put Windows on PowerPC for you,
> as an example of the dollar-magnitude. It's only when it
> is in their own best interests, they do ARM for free.
> If you wanted Windows ported to MIPS (CPUs used in routers),
> then that would cost you. The figure could be two or three
> times that amount, today.
>
As before, thanks for the more in-depth description of the issues involved.

Yes, I can confirm my CPU being Skylake (see https://imgur.com/RdwyxJr).
My previous post suggests that there is a workaround that will bypass
firewalls put in place by WinTel to allow for Win7 to install on
processors past Skylake. Are you aware if there will be mobo driver
incompatibilities in doing so?

I'm not in the market to upgrade, as yet, but would like to know there
is a path sometime in the future to port Win7 instead of having to
suffer Win10. Regrettably, I am too invested in graphics-intense
Windows-based programs to entertain a Linux install other than as a VBox
machine. I've installed several Linux distros including RedHat, Ubunto
and Mint. Do you have a favorite distro other than those?

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Paul graced us with on 5/12/2021 7:29 AM:
> JJ wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 May 2021 23:27:23 -0500, Ant wrote:
>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>
>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>
>> No. Windows 7, Windows XP or even DOS, can still run on latest hardwares.
>>
>> The likely problem is when you use additional device. Whether their
>> manufacturer still provide a driver for your OS version or not.
>>
>> However, if gaming experience is a priority, Windows 10 is highly
>> recommended. Otherwise, you can keep your old OS and use it on newer
>> hardwares.
>
> It's not as recommended as it once was.
>
> There was a report of a reduced gaming frame rate
> right after the last Windows 10 monthly updates.
>
There may be some gaming issues due to lack of full support past
Direct-X 11, no?

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Ant wrote:
> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>
> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

I do not like the Windows 10 Menu system. Probably because I am an engineer
and like things more structured. I run a program (skin) called Open-Shell.

https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu

I did not check the above URL but you get the idea. This makes Windows 10
look just like Windows 7.

I am running Windows 10 Pro, x64, lastest version of 20H2. So I guess the
next test for Open-Shell will be 21H1.
--
<Bill>

Brought to you from Anchorage, Alaska

Paul graced us with on 5/11/2021 10:02 PM:
> Ant wrote:
>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>
>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>
> Windows 7 is out of support, so you might need version 11.9
> and have the thing download the updates for you. I have
> a version 9.6 (with a fileset in the client folder that
> the tool downloaded) that I use to patch up VMs with.
>
> https://download.wsusoffline.net/
>
Do you know which Win7 version is download (Home/Pro/Ultimate)?

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Sailfish wrote:

> As before, thanks for the more in-depth description of the issues involved.
>
> Yes, I can confirm my CPU being Skylake (see https://imgur.com/RdwyxJr).
> My previous post suggests that there is a workaround that will bypass
> firewalls put in place by WinTel to allow for Win7 to install on
> processors past Skylake. Are you aware if there will be mobo driver
> incompatibilities in doing so?
>
> I'm not in the market to upgrade, as yet, but would like to know there
> is a path sometime in the future to port Win7 instead of having to
> suffer Win10. Regrettably, I am too invested in graphics-intense
> Windows-based programs to entertain a Linux install other than as a VBox
> machine. I've installed several Linux distros including RedHat, Ubunto
> and Mint. Do you have a favorite distro other than those?

The answer to your question is "absolutely". The number of
drivers produced, has been dropping with time, and the
Intel site is getting pretty thin on the ground (yes, they
love their graphics drivers). They don't have to include
a USB3 driver for your Win7 machine and its Southbridge.
That's because Windows 7 is now out of support. Even
though the logic macro might be pretty well exactly like
the one in other Southbridges (the USB Class standards
define a standardized register set). But at least some
of the stuff they do, they could have spun a set of
drivers without writing new code. Just editing the INF
would be enough.

Now, it's not entirely that simple, because there
are some issues with bandwidth fairness in some of the
"higher than USB3.0" standards, and probably nobody
has made Windows 7 drivers for the really fancy stuff
(USB 4/Thunderbolt or whatever).

I was lucky, that I got a USB3 card, where the chip
drivers went back to WinXP :-) I didn't realize at
the time, just how "special" this would be :-)

Network chips, the manufacturers at one time,
were proud of just how many OSes they covered.
They probably even had drivers for DOS in the package.
But the days of overly generous driver efforts are
pretty well behind us now. We're in the "nobody cares"
era now.

It's "Windows 10 or hit the highway, pal". There are
no second choices.

Paul

Sailfish wrote:
> Paul graced us with on 5/11/2021 10:02 PM:
>> Ant wrote:
>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>
>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>
>> Windows 7 is out of support, so you might need version 11.9
>> and have the thing download the updates for you. I have
>> a version 9.6 (with a fileset in the client folder that
>> the tool downloaded) that I use to patch up VMs with.
>>
>> https://download.wsusoffline.net/
>>
> Do you know which Win7 version is download (Home/Pro/Ultimate)?
>

It would cover all those SKUs as far as I know.

I don't remember any discussions about the SKUs
being treated differently.

The last time that happened, was WinXP 32-bit
going to SP3. And WinXP 64 bit (which is actually
Windows 2003 in disguise), stopped at SP2.
But those weren't really the same OS, and finding
drivers for WinXP 64 bit was a chore not to be
underestimated, just as Windows 2003 was
treated like a bastard child too (no drivers).

The update installers are "marked" according to what
OSes they cover. There were some updates,
which applied to Windows Server and Windows
Desktop at the same time, and the same file
would install on either OS version. But the update
would say "Windows 7" and not "Windows 7 Ultimate".

The tracking scheme, uses the OS release number,
like 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, 10. Again, no mention of
Ultimate.

Paul

Sailfish wrote:
> Paul graced us with on 5/12/2021 7:29 AM:
>> JJ wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 May 2021 23:27:23 -0500, Ant wrote:
>>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>>
>>> No. Windows 7, Windows XP or even DOS, can still run on latest
>>> hardwares.
>>>
>>> The likely problem is when you use additional device. Whether their
>>> manufacturer still provide a driver for your OS version or not.
>>>
>>> However, if gaming experience is a priority, Windows 10 is highly
>>> recommended. Otherwise, you can keep your old OS and use it on newer
>>> hardwares.
>>
>> It's not as recommended as it once was.
>>
>> There was a report of a reduced gaming frame rate
>> right after the last Windows 10 monthly updates.
>>
> There may be some gaming issues due to lack of full support past
> Direct-X 11, no?

There was DirectX 12, which changes from "object passing"
in DX11, to (old fashioned) Display Lists in DX12. The object
model used to "flood" the hardware interface (every blade
of grass in Flight Sim would mean a call to the graphics card).

Display lists would allow, say, a hundred objects to be handled
in one display list (a kind of script). This means fewer interrupts,
fewer calls to interrupt handler routines and so on. The
game developers design their own display lists and pass
those to the graphics card. The end result is 30% more
performance, by doing absolutely nothing clever :-)
Just returning to how things were done in the late 80's.

When DX11 was done, someone was sitting on their thumb.
What happened, makes no sense at all. All we can
say in their defense, is "at least they fixed it"
for DX12.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_12

"In 2019 Microsoft announced the arrival of DirectX 12
to Windows 7 but only as a plug-in for certain game titles."

Which as a concept, sank like a rock. There might have
been only one title with that feature/method.

Paul

Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
> Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
> > Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
> > replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
> >
> > Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)

> Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
> Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.

4.5 years old isn't that new. LOL.
--
"Ants can lift up to 50 times their own weight. And your monitor is missing. Time to bring out the bugspray." --BBspot's Geek Horoscopes (2/28/2003)
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Paul graced us with on 5/12/2021 12:00 PM:
> Sailfish wrote:
>
>> As before, thanks for the more in-depth description of the issues
>> involved.
>>
>> Yes, I can confirm my CPU being Skylake (see
>> https://imgur.com/RdwyxJr). My previous post suggests that there is a
>> workaround that will bypass firewalls put in place by WinTel to allow
>> for Win7 to install on processors past Skylake. Are you aware if there
>> will be mobo driver incompatibilities in doing so?
>>
>> I'm not in the market to upgrade, as yet, but would like to know there
>> is a path sometime in the future to port Win7 instead of having to
>> suffer Win10. Regrettably, I am too invested in graphics-intense
>> Windows-based programs to entertain a Linux install other than as a
>> VBox machine. I've installed several Linux distros including RedHat,
>> Ubunto and Mint. Do you have a favorite distro other than those?
>
> The answer to your question is "absolutely". The number of
> drivers produced, has been dropping with time, and the
> Intel site is getting pretty thin on the ground (yes, they
> love their graphics drivers). They don't have to include
> a USB3 driver for your Win7 machine and its Southbridge.
> That's because Windows 7 is now out of support. Even
> though the logic macro might be pretty well exactly like
> the one in other Southbridges (the USB Class standards
> define a standardized register set). But at least some
> of the stuff they do, they could have spun a set of
> drivers without writing new code. Just editing the INF
> would be enough.
>
> Now, it's not entirely that simple, because there
> are some issues with bandwidth fairness in some of the
> "higher than USB3.0" standards, and probably nobody
> has made Windows 7 drivers for the really fancy stuff
> (USB 4/Thunderbolt or whatever).
>
> I was lucky, that I got a USB3 card, where the chip
> drivers went back to WinXP :-) I didn't realize at
> the time, just how "special" this would be :-)
>
> Network chips, the manufacturers at one time,
> were proud of just how many OSes they covered.
> They probably even had drivers for DOS in the package.
> But the days of overly generous driver efforts are
> pretty well behind us now. We're in the "nobody cares"
> era now.
>
> It's "Windows 10 or hit the highway, pal". There are
> no second choices.
>
Heh, yeah, Bill'em Gates needs more billions to offset his soon-to-be
loss of "sizing" rites against Elon and Bezos

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Paul graced us with on 5/12/2021 12:28 PM:
> Sailfish wrote:
>> Paul graced us with on 5/11/2021 10:02 PM:
>>> Ant wrote:
>>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>>
>>> Windows 7 is out of support, so you might need version 11.9
>>> and have the thing download the updates for you. I have
>>> a version 9.6 (with a fileset in the client folder that
>>> the tool downloaded) that I use to patch up VMs with.
>>>
>>> https://download.wsusoffline.net/
>>>
>> Do you know which Win7 version is download (Home/Pro/Ultimate)?
>>
>
> It would cover all those SKUs as far as I know.
>
> I don't remember any discussions about the SKUs
> being treated differently.
>
> The last time that happened, was WinXP 32-bit
> going to SP3. And WinXP 64 bit (which is actually
> Windows 2003 in disguise), stopped at SP2.
> But those weren't really the same OS, and finding
> drivers for WinXP 64 bit was a chore not to be
> underestimated, just as Windows 2003 was
> treated like a bastard child too (no drivers).
>
> The update installers are "marked" according to what
> OSes they cover. There were some updates,
> which applied to Windows Server and Windows
> Desktop at the same time, and the same file
> would install on either OS version. But the update
> would say "Windows 7" and not "Windows 7 Ultimate".
>
> The tracking scheme, uses the OS release number,
> like 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, 10. Again, no mention of
> Ultimate.
>
Much obliged.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Ant graced us with on 5/12/2021 1:05 PM:
> Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
>> Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>
>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>
>> Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
>> Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.
>
> 4.5 years old isn't that new. LOL.

Agreed. Perhaps I should have stated relatively new and relatively old? :_)

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
> Ant graced us with on 5/12/2021 1:05 PM:
> > Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
> >> Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
> >>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
> >>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
> >
> >> Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
> >> Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.
> >
> > 4.5 years old isn't that new. LOL.

> Agreed. Perhaps I should have stated relatively new and relatively old? :_)

Mine are so old. I am amazed that they still work. I need to plan to replace them. I read GPUs, drives, etc. are harder and pricer to get. :(
--
"Ants can lift up to 50 times their own weight. And your monitor is missing. Time to bring out the bugspray." --BBspot's Geek Horoscopes (2/28/2003)
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Sailfish graced us with on 5/12/2021 1:07 PM:
> Paul graced us with on 5/12/2021 12:28 PM:
>> Sailfish wrote:
>>> Paul graced us with on 5/11/2021 10:02 PM:
>>>> Ant wrote:
>>>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>>>
>>>> Windows 7 is out of support, so you might need version 11.9
>>>> and have the thing download the updates for you. I have
>>>> a version 9.6 (with a fileset in the client folder that
>>>> the tool downloaded) that I use to patch up VMs with.
>>>>
>>>> https://download.wsusoffline.net/
>>>>
>>> Do you know which Win7 version is download (Home/Pro/Ultimate)?
>>>
>>
>> It would cover all those SKUs as far as I know.
>>
>> I don't remember any discussions about the SKUs
>> being treated differently.
>>
>> The last time that happened, was WinXP 32-bit
>> going to SP3. And WinXP 64 bit (which is actually
>> Windows 2003 in disguise), stopped at SP2.
>> But those weren't really the same OS, and finding
>> drivers for WinXP 64 bit was a chore not to be
>> underestimated, just as Windows 2003 was
>> treated like a bastard child too (no drivers).
>>
>> The update installers are "marked" according to what
>> OSes they cover. There were some updates,
>> which applied to Windows Server and Windows
>> Desktop at the same time, and the same file
>> would install on either OS version. But the update
>> would say "Windows 7" and not "Windows 7 Ultimate".
>>
>> The tracking scheme, uses the OS release number,
>> like 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, 10. Again, no mention of
>> Ultimate.
>>
> Much obliged.
>
ah, correct me if I'm mistaken. I had initially thought that WSUS would
include both the Windows 7 Installation files along with the updates;
however, after further analysis, it appears to include just the Windows
7 OS updates up to the build date of the WSUS build version and NOT the
Win7 Installation files.

So, the user would would/could use this AFTER a Win7 installation from a
Win7 DVD or ISO file, negating the tedium of having to go through the
multiple online Windows Update processes, yes?

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Sailfish wrote:
> Sailfish graced us with on 5/12/2021 1:07 PM:
>> Paul graced us with on 5/12/2021 12:28 PM:
>>> Sailfish wrote:
>>>> Paul graced us with on 5/11/2021 10:02 PM:
>>>>> Ant wrote:
>>>>>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>>>>>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows 7 is out of support, so you might need version 11.9
>>>>> and have the thing download the updates for you. I have
>>>>> a version 9.6 (with a fileset in the client folder that
>>>>> the tool downloaded) that I use to patch up VMs with.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://download.wsusoffline.net/
>>>>>
>>>> Do you know which Win7 version is download (Home/Pro/Ultimate)?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would cover all those SKUs as far as I know.
>>>
>>> I don't remember any discussions about the SKUs
>>> being treated differently.
>>>
>>> The last time that happened, was WinXP 32-bit
>>> going to SP3. And WinXP 64 bit (which is actually
>>> Windows 2003 in disguise), stopped at SP2.
>>> But those weren't really the same OS, and finding
>>> drivers for WinXP 64 bit was a chore not to be
>>> underestimated, just as Windows 2003 was
>>> treated like a bastard child too (no drivers).
>>>
>>> The update installers are "marked" according to what
>>> OSes they cover. There were some updates,
>>> which applied to Windows Server and Windows
>>> Desktop at the same time, and the same file
>>> would install on either OS version. But the update
>>> would say "Windows 7" and not "Windows 7 Ultimate".
>>>
>>> The tracking scheme, uses the OS release number,
>>> like 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, 10. Again, no mention of
>>> Ultimate.
>>>
>> Much obliged.
>>
> ah, correct me if I'm mistaken. I had initially thought that WSUS would
> include both the Windows 7 Installation files along with the updates;
> however, after further analysis, it appears to include just the Windows
> 7 OS updates up to the build date of the WSUS build version and NOT the
> Win7 Installation files.
>
> So, the user would would/could use this AFTER a Win7 installation from a
> Win7 DVD or ISO file, negating the tedium of having to go through the
> multiple online Windows Update processes, yes?
>

When you prepare a WSUSOffline folder, all the materials
listed in the stick get downloaded. Some might be blacklisted,
such as irritating ones that put a band across the screen.

For a given OS, the WSUSOffline team knows that first
you have to patch Windows Update to make it "responsive".
Normally, you would have trouble even getting the WU
to contact Microsoft. For example, the downloaded patches
today use SHA2 for signing, and not something older as
a signing method. On an older OS, the signing method
patch has to be installed first, in order for the
WU to be able to deal with the rest of the updates.

Using WSUSOffline then, after you "build" your cache of
files in the Client folder, the setup has a "staged"
approach. There might be a total of five reboots.
Repair WU, fix signing, do Certificates update file
next, and eventually it will say "starting 138 updates".
If you control-c'ed your way out of it, it will
pick up where it left off.

Once a WSUSOffline folder is loaded into the machine,
you should find it much more responsive in terms of
future WU visits (the exception being the CPU issue,
in which case, you track down the "back-out" patch).
It's even possible the "CPU buster" patch is blacklisted
and not installed at the instant WSUSOffline is finished.

Some patches installed by WU are "non-reversing" and
are marked as "uninstallable". But that's just a
facade and they can be modified to change that
status. It would take some extra skulduggery, to
add additional mechanisms to prevent removal. A
"patch remover", one of those hacks, would be
working the levers to prepare the nuisance patch
for removal. Hacks sometimes also change the
"stream" of the OS, so as far as WU is concerned,
it's a different OS. That's how the POS Updates
were added to Windows XP, by flipping a switch
to claim the desktop machine was a Point Of Sale
terminal.

Paul

On Wed, 12 May 2021 10:29:40 -0400, Paul wrote:
>
> It's not as recommended as it once was.
>
> There was a report of a reduced gaming frame rate
> right after the last Windows 10 monthly updates.

Like the old OSes, you don't have to upgrade/update the OS.

In case of Windows 10 OS, it's similar: you don't have to update the OS.
i.e. you don't have to accept any shoved-down-into-throat hotfixes which
only turn users to lab rats.

In most cases nowadays, the probability that a computer is hacked by a
hacker due to unpatched security holes (meaning that the computer has to be
already being targetted in the first place), is much lower than the
probability that the computer got broken due to unreliable/premature OS
update.

Unless a user is one of those people who tend to make enemies, how many
times a hacker would try to hack a user's computer in a month? What about in
3 months? Or 6 months? A year? Only you know the answer.

JJ graced us with on 5/13/2021 3:25 AM:
> On Wed, 12 May 2021 10:29:40 -0400, Paul wrote:
>> It's not as recommended as it once was.
>>
>> There was a report of a reduced gaming frame rate
>> right after the last Windows 10 monthly updates.
>
> Like the old OSes, you don't have to upgrade/update the OS.
>
> In case of Windows 10 OS, it's similar: you don't have to update the OS.
> i.e. you don't have to accept any shoved-down-into-throat hotfixes which
> only turn users to lab rats.
>
REF:
https://www.howtogeek.com/410183/microsoft-abandons-windows-10s-forced-updates/

[excerpt quote=\"
Windows 10 will still automatically install a feature update when your
current version reaches “end of service.” This happens about every 18
months—see the Windows lifecycle fact sheet. That means, if you were
using Windows 10’s Fall Creators Update (1709), your PC would be about
to install a feature update—but you wouldn’t have had to install the
last few feature updates. (So yes, some forced feature updates
remain—but only once every 18 months or so, after a lot of testing.)
\" /]

Has even this Win10 forced install be abandoned?

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

On Thu, 13 May 2021 11:24:24 -0700, Sailfish wrote:

> JJ graced us with on 5/13/2021 3:25 AM:
>> On Wed, 12 May 2021 10:29:40 -0400, Paul wrote:
>>> It's not as recommended as it once was.
>>>
>>> There was a report of a reduced gaming frame rate
>>> right after the last Windows 10 monthly updates.
>>
>> Like the old OSes, you don't have to upgrade/update the OS.
>>
>> In case of Windows 10 OS, it's similar: you don't have to update the OS.
>> i.e. you don't have to accept any shoved-down-into-throat hotfixes which
>> only turn users to lab rats.
>>
> REF:
> https://www.howtogeek.com/410183/microsoft-abandons-windows-10s-forced-updates/
>
> [excerpt quote=\"
> Windows 10 will still automatically install a feature update when your
> current version reaches “end of service.” This happens about every 18
> months—see the Windows lifecycle fact sheet. That means, if you were
> using Windows 10’s Fall Creators Update (1709), your PC would be about
> to install a feature update—but you wouldn’t have had to install the
> last few feature updates. (So yes, some forced feature updates
> remain—but only once every 18 months or so, after a lot of testing.)
> \" /]
>
> Has even this Win10 forced install be abandoned?

Even if it is, it simply changes form into misleading nags. Presumably,
which can non be disabled - at least, easily. Just like the forced auto
update.

On 5/11/2021 10:00 PM, Sailfish wrote:
> Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
>> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
>> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
>>
>> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
>
> Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
> Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.
>

This PC is running win7 on a GA-Z270XP-SLI running an I7-8700K with some
tape mods to it's connections, and a modded BIOS. There are hacks
available to keep getting updates.

Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/11/2021 10:00 PM, Sailfish wrote:
> > Ant graced us with on 5/11/2021 9:27 PM:
> >> Or do they all require newer OSes like W10 these days? I'd like to
> >> replace my over decade old PCs, but I really hate W10. :(
> >>
> >> Thank you for reading and hopefully answering soon. :)
> >
> > Mine is relatively new (4.5 yearsold), a Dell 8900 XPS and Win 7 Pro &
> > Ultimate work fine. However, I can't confirm anything later than that.
> >

> This PC is running win7 on a GA-Z270XP-SLI running an I7-8700K with some
> tape mods to it's connections, and a modded BIOS. There are hacks
> available to keep getting updates.

That sounds complex and difficult.
--
Dang hot weather, colony, new job (quit after eight work days), life, and elevated blood pressure. :(
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/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
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