It's time for another big CRAP*...poll. Because nothing feels as good
as taking a massive CRAP... poll.

-----------

It's time to play a game! But how are we going to navigate the
game-world? Now, obviously in the real world, every game has different
needs and no controller will fit every case... but we're going to
pretend we live in a world where every control scheme is equal to all
the others (this is the same world where cows are spheres**). So given
the choice, which control method do you pick?

- 1 - I choose the KEYBOARD.
// The old-school ways are best. 80+ buttons
// to jab at: infinite diversity in infinite
// combinations.
- 2 - I choose the MOUSE.
// Precise control over everything on the
// screen is a must.
- 3 - I choose the KEYBOARD + MOUSE combo
// Boom! Headshot!
- 4 - I choose the JOYSTICK (maybe with a HOTAS)
// If it's good enough for Top Gun, it's good
// enough for me!
- 5 - I choose the GAMEPAD
// A versatile compromise that works with
// almost everything
- 6 - I choose the TOUCH-PAD
// Because I hate my life
- 7 - I choose the TOUCH-SCREEN
// If I want things to move on the screen, I
// just touch the screen! What could be more
// intuitive?
- 8 - I choose the TRACKBALL
// Wheeee! Look at it spin!
- 9 - I choose VOICE CONTROLS
// "My voice is my passport. Verify me."
- 10 - I choose THOSE WEIRD VR THINGEES
// It's just like being there in real life!
- 11 - Screw that, I HACK THE INODES USING TINY MAGNETS
// Bare metal, baby!

Okay, sure, this CRAP poll is a bit more tongue-in-cheek than most,
and - given its intended audience - I can wager the results are going
to be weighted more towards certain options than others. But we can
have fun with it anyway, right? Just pretend this is a perfect game
designed just to meet your needs and desires; what's the controller
you'd pick for that situation?

Myself, yeah, I'm going with #1, the good ol' keyboard. It's just the
most comfortable option for me.

I think this because - since I didn't grow up with a gamepad in my
hands like most Nintendo-kids - my brain never developed the same
number of connections and neurons to make alternate controls feel
quite as intuitive. But I started using the a keyboard fairly early,
and I always have faster and more precise reactions with my fingers on
a 'board. It's just the most comfortable. I never take my hands off
the keys!

So, it's a perfect game where any control scheme works perfectly...
which one do you go with?

----------------
* Completely Random And Pointless... but you knew that.
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow .... but you knew that
too.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:24:05 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>So, it's a perfect game where any control scheme works perfectly...
>which one do you go with?

TL;DR: 3. WTAF? Of course, 3.

3.* Of course.* Why would I do anything else than KBM?* For sure with
other games, but FPS with a game controller is like playing with oven
mitts. Pro gamers all use KBM for a reason. Gamepads are for MAME.

If I am _forced_ to use a controller because the game is designed that
way, my favorite is a wired X-Box 360 controller (for my PC).* I
literally haven't played Stray since I bought it because they warned me
that I should use a controller, and I can't be arsed to plug one in.

A joystick for space combat sims and flight (combat or other) sims. A FF
racing controller with pedals and paddle gear shift for racing.

A Pro Controller on my Switch.* Unless I'm playing emulated console games
on my Switch, in which case I have specialized SNES, Genesis, and N64
remakes from Nintendo Online. They are _a-maze-iiing_.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

* With notable exceptions, of course. I can never give a straight answer
to a straight question. Details follow.

On 10/14/2023 7:24 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> So given
> the choice, which control method do you pick?
>
>
> - 1 - I choose the KEYBOARD.
> // The old-school ways are best. 80+ buttons
> // to jab at: infinite diversity in infinite
> // combinations.
> - 2 - I choose the MOUSE.
> // Precise control over everything on the
> // screen is a must.
> - 3 - I choose the KEYBOARD + MOUSE combo
> // Boom! Headshot!
> - 4 - I choose the JOYSTICK (maybe with a HOTAS)
> // If it's good enough for Top Gun, it's good
> // enough for me!
> - 5 - I choose the GAMEPAD
> // A versatile compromise that works with
> // almost everything
> - 6 - I choose the TOUCH-PAD
> // Because I hate my life
> - 7 - I choose the TOUCH-SCREEN
> // If I want things to move on the screen, I
> // just touch the screen! What could be more
> // intuitive?
> - 8 - I choose the TRACKBALL
> // Wheeee! Look at it spin!
> - 9 - I choose VOICE CONTROLS
> // "My voice is my passport. Verify me."
> - 10 - I choose THOSE WEIRD VR THINGEES
> // It's just like being there in real life!
> - 11 - Screw that, I HACK THE INODES USING TINY MAGNETS
> // Bare metal, baby!

#3 - Greatest capabilities overall and just about everything on a PC
needs both anyways. And I'm proficient enough with mouse and keyboard
at work that I'm awesome.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 10:24:05 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>- 1 - I choose the KEYBOARD.
> // The old-school ways are best. 80+ buttons
> // to jab at: infinite diversity in infinite
> // combinations.
>- 2 - I choose the MOUSE.
> // Precise control over everything on the
> // screen is a must.
>- 3 - I choose the KEYBOARD + MOUSE combo
> // Boom! Headshot!
>- 4 - I choose the JOYSTICK (maybe with a HOTAS)
> // If it's good enough for Top Gun, it's good
> // enough for me!
>- 5 - I choose the GAMEPAD
> // A versatile compromise that works with
> // almost everything

Depending on the game, it will be either 1 or 3 for me. I can't think
of any game I play where I don't use the keyboard to some degree so 2
is out.

Occasionally, very occasionally, I will use a gamepad.

On 10/14/23 09:24, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> - 3 - I choose the KEYBOARD + MOUSE combo
> // Boom! Headshot!

Mostly because that's what I grew up with, stuff like DOOM, Quake, and
the Valve classics. Also, most of the games I play have at least some
mouse control. The only one that I actively play (not counting arcade
games) that don't would be like One Step from Eden.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> It's time to play a game! But how are we going to navigate the
> game-world? Now, obviously in the real world, every game has
> different needs and no controller will fit every case... but we're
> going to pretend we live in a world where every control scheme is
> equal to all the others (this is the same world where cows are
> spheres**). So given the choice, which control method do you pick?

My control scheme is going to be dependent on what I am playing If we
are talking FPS and TPS games:

- 3 - I choose the KEYBOARD + MOUSE combo
// Boom! Headshot!

Most of us were playing FPS titles with just the keyboard cursors (1),
no strafing. Stop, turn, shot, hope your life and armor last enough,
IDDQD when you end giving up. Some people attempted playing with just
(2), moving the mouse forward to advance.

If we are talking about "console" games:

- 5 - I choose the GAMEPAD
// A versatile compromise that works with
// almost everything

Actually, no single gamepad is versatile for everything, so I will have
sub-options here:
5.1: Games with 3d movement (think Mario 64): A controller with the
analog on the top
5.2: 2d movement games, or precise movemente required (Hollow Knight,
VVVVV, Super Mario World): A Classic gamepad without an analog, or a
modern controller with the D-pad at the top.
5.3: Games that were not designed for a diamond button layout: A Saturn
gamepad or a fightpad. The Saturn has one of the most interesant d-pad
systems that feels completely different from traditional d-pads.
5.4: When we go full arcade: Hori Fightstick mini. Extremely
comfortable, distribute the interaction between multiple fingers. Also,
best thing ever for Tetris, specially if you install a special gate
instead of the square.

Part of the stuff I have:
https://anonpic.org/image.php?di=SGXQ

Talking a bit about the others:
4) The Joystick: Tried it, never had any luck
6) The Touchpad: Maybe the dual trackpads on the Steam Deck, which feel
very different from a normal touchpad.
7) Touchscreen: Works for some games, but Nintendo seems to hate it now,
removing touch support from the latest versions of Pokemon and Animal
Crossing. The touchscreen helped a lot with inventory management.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

> - 3 - I choose the KEYBOARD + MOUSE combo
> // Boom! Headshot!

Yep. Absolutely. Boom!

> - 5 - I choose the GAMEPAD
> // A versatile compromise that works with
> // almost everything

Hardly but if I feel a gamepad's right for the game then sure. The right
tool for the job and all that. If there's any part of the game that's
better played with mouse and keyboard, then that part is still played
with mouse and keyboard.

For example, I recently played through the updated GTA games where
driving and riding and flying was always better with a gamepad. On foot,
well, it's the "Boom! Headshot!" city always. Although I'd say the
combat on foot was still pretty bad in GTA3 and Vice City and the
precision a mouse provides didn't make that much of a difference there.

> - 9 - I choose VOICE CONTROLS
> // "My voice is my passport. Verify me."

I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of voice
control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys' keyboards
so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked and the tech
guys beat him even with voice control.

>It's time to play a game! But how are we going to navigate the game-world?

No mention of VR as yet, so I'll throw in that using a gamepad is a good
option for many games, since after all you can't see the keyboard, and can
play seated while still using the headset to look around. Gamepads are also
a great option for point & click adventure games, freeing you from being
stuck to a desk.

rms

On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of voice
> control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys' keyboards
> so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked and the tech
> guys beat him even with voice control.

I want to see the comic.
Also, voice chat always felt kinda futuristic and all, but is very
impractical.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of
>> voice control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys'
>> keyboards so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked
>> and the tech guys beat him even with voice control.
>
> I want to see the comic. Also, voice chat always felt kinda
> futuristic and all, but is very impractical.

I just had a flashback of AVGN playing with the Konami Laserscope for
NES, once he finds out that the voice activated controllers does not
care if you say "Fire" or "Fuck".

"Wow, I just shot down a duck by saying fuck".

On 10/15/23 12:18, H1MEM wrote:
> candycanearter07 wrote:
>> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of
>>> voice control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys'
>>> keyboards so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked
>>> and the tech guys beat him even with voice control.
>>
>> I want to see the comic. Also, voice chat always felt kinda
>> futuristic and all, but is very impractical.
>
> I just had a flashback of AVGN playing with the Konami Laserscope for
> NES, once he finds out that the voice activated controllers does not
> care if you say "Fire" or "Fuck".
>
> "Wow, I just shot down a duck by saying fuck".

Close enough, right?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/15/2023 10:28 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/15/23 12:18, H1MEM wrote:
>> candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of
>>>> voice control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys'
>>>> keyboards so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked
>>>> and the tech guys beat him even with voice control.
>>>
>>> I want to see the comic. Also, voice chat always felt kinda
>>> futuristic and all, but is very impractical.
>>
>> I just had a flashback of AVGN playing with the Konami Laserscope for
>> NES, once he finds out that the voice activated controllers does not
>> care if you say "Fire" or "Fuck".
>>
>> "Wow, I just shot down a duck by saying fuck".
>
> Close enough, right?

My father used to say "Fuck a duck!" when he was angry when I was a you't.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> writes:

> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of voice
>> control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys' keyboards
>> so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked and the tech
>> guys beat him even with voice control.
>
> I want to see the comic.

Looks like the comic's website, userfriendly.org, is gone. I used to
have an archive of quite a lot of the strips but I think I lost most or
all of that. There are archives online but Userfriendly published
thousands of strips and if the original site had a search function, that
probably isn't around any more.

On 10/15/23 14:30, Anssi Saari wrote:
> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> writes:
>
>> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of voice
>>> control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys' keyboards
>>> so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked and the tech
>>> guys beat him even with voice control.
>>
>> I want to see the comic.
>
> Looks like the comic's website, userfriendly.org, is gone. I used to
> have an archive of quite a lot of the strips but I think I lost most or
> all of that. There are archives online but Userfriendly published
> thousands of strips and if the original site had a search function, that
> probably isn't around any more.

Ah rip, lost media always sucks.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/15/23 14:30, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of voice
>>>> control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech guys' keyboards
>>>> so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he still sucked and the tech
>>>> guys beat him even with voice control.
>>>
>>> I want to see the comic.
>>
>> Looks like the comic's website, userfriendly.org, is gone. I used to
>> have an archive of quite a lot of the strips but I think I lost most or
>> all of that. There are archives online but Userfriendly published
>> thousands of strips and if the original site had a search function, that
>> probably isn't around any more.
>
> Ah rip, lost media always sucks.

What Go...Internet takes, wayback machine gives:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190505071300/http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20130624
Do you remember the date the strip was published around?

candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 10/15/23 14:30, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of
>>>> voice control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech
>>>> guys' keyboards so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he
>>>> still sucked and the tech guys beat him even with voice
>>>> control.
>>>
>>> I want to see the comic.
>>
>> Looks like the comic's website, userfriendly.org, is gone. I used
>> to have an archive of quite a lot of the strips but I think I lost
>> most or all of that. There are archives online but Userfriendly
>> published thousands of strips and if the original site had a search
>> function, that probably isn't around any more.
>
> Ah rip, lost media always sucks.

Even better, we have a nicely packaged zip containing 1997 to 2013.
Just that please, can anybody keep this safe? I am close to filling a
4TB NAS drive with hard to find stuff that is not on internet anymore. I
can't tell the line between preservation and data hoarding anymore

https://archive.org/details/user-friendly-comic

On 10/15/23 15:37, H1MEM wrote:
> can't tell the line between preservation and data hoarding anymore

The only difference is the intent and in-depth ness of storage.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/15/2023 1:37 PM, H1MEM wrote:
> candycanearter07 wrote:
>> On 10/15/23 14:30, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 10/15/23 10:28, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>>>> I remember the Userfriendly web comic made a few strips out of
>>>>> voice control. Something like, the sales guy removed the tech
>>>>> guys' keyboards so he could beat them in whatever FPS but he
>>>>> still sucked and the tech guys beat him even with voice
>>>>> control.
>>>>
>>>> I want to see the comic.
>>>
>>> Looks like the comic's website, userfriendly.org, is gone. I used
>>> to have an archive of quite a lot of the strips but I think I lost
>>> most or all of that. There are archives online but Userfriendly
>>> published thousands of strips and if the original site had a search
>>> function, that probably isn't around any more.
>>
>> Ah rip, lost media always sucks.
>
> Even better, we have a nicely  packaged zip containing 1997 to 2013.
> Just that please, can anybody keep this safe? I am close to filling a
> 4TB NAS drive with hard to find stuff that is not on internet anymore. I
> can't tell the line between preservation and data hoarding anymore
>
You seem to be implying that there IS a difference between the two other
than organizing....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

>It's time to play a game! But how are we going to navigate the game-world?

No mention of VR as yet, so I'll throw in that using a gamepad is a good
option for many games, since after all you can't see the keyboard, and can
play seated while still using the headset to look around. Gamepads are also
a great option for point & click adventure games, freeing you from being
stuck to a desk.

rms

Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> You seem to be implying that there IS a difference between the two
> other than organizing....

candycanearter07 wrote:
> The only difference is the intent and in-depth ness of storage.

I definitely tidy less now, compared to finding a DVD I created 20 years
ago that even had notes for the future.

I stopped saving stuff when it felt like stuff on Internet would remain
forever, but as "Internet Disease" / "Website Rot" worsens, update
systems for digital stores replace good versions with worse ones and no
option to keep or redownload the old one (Rocksmith 2014 before the 2022
"remaster"), and forums get deleted and replaced with Discord, I keep
saving more and more stuff and become increasingly paranoid. From
specific versions of software to web pages with tutorials and commands
for server administration, laser discs rips, and building my own local
network wiki with all the documentation I write.

I only used to save and maintain my photo albums. Nowadays it's more
like "I need to save everything", then share it at the annual lanparty,
and find that 4TB is not that much when you find somebody else has 40TB
on DC.

rms wrote:
> Gamepads are also a great option for point & click adventure games,
> freeing you from being stuck to a desk.

Steam Deck may be one of the best options thanks to the crazily complex
controller mapping. You can play LucasArts or similar game with touch
screen mouse emulation, trackpads, analog and even the d-pad. Even if
there's no native controller support, the client makes it easy to
implement controller control schemes.

I played Maniac Mansion on NES. It's a pity they did not release more
adventure games for 16 bits consoles save for Monkey Island on Mega CD,
Given that both Snes and Megadrive having mouse support. And speaking of
that, thankfully the community created hacks for mouse only games so
that it is now possible to play Wonder Project J on an Snes without the
mouse (it's getting harder to find one in good shape).

On 10/16/23 05:27, H1M3M wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> You seem to be implying that there IS a difference between the two
>> other than organizing....
>
> candycanearter07 wrote:
>> The only difference is the intent and in-depth ness of storage.
>

> I stopped saving stuff when it felt like stuff on Internet would remain
> forever, but as "Internet Disease" / "Website Rot" worsens, update
> systems for digital stores replace good versions with worse ones and no
> option to keep or redownload the old one (Rocksmith 2014 before the 2022
> "remaster"), and forums get deleted and replaced with Discord, I keep
> saving more and more stuff and become increasingly paranoid. From
> specific versions of software to web pages with tutorials and commands
> for server administration, laser discs rips, and building my own local
> network wiki with all the documentation I write.

Completely fair, the internet is going downhill somewhat.

> I only used to save and maintain my photo albums. Nowadays it's more
> like "I need to save everything", then share it at the annual lanparty,
> and find that 4TB is not that much when you find somebody else has 40TB
> on DC.

Have you considered uploading to archive.org?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/16/23 05:35, H1M3M wrote:
> rms wrote:
>> Gamepads are also a great option for point & click adventure games,
>> freeing you from being stuck to a desk.
>
> Steam Deck may be one of the best options thanks to the crazily complex
> controller mapping. You can play LucasArts or similar game with touch
> screen mouse emulation, trackpads, analog and even the d-pad. Even if
> there's no native controller support, the client makes it easy to
> implement controller control schemes.

Steam Deck is really good at providing enough to play most anything.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

candycanearter07 wrote:

> Have you considered uploading to archive.org?

There was a preservation effort to scan a lot of old game magazines from
the eighties and nineties. Everybody was working in secrecy, and in the
moment files were leaked, the copyright strikes fell like a hammer. Only
a few issues have ever made it to archive.org, and they get removed often.

It's more like avoiding having all the eggs in one single basket, and
the fear of archive.org getting taken down one day only fuels the data
hoarding issues.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/03/20/internet_archive_lawsuit_latest/

On 10/16/23 09:07, H1M3M wrote:
> candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Have you considered uploading to archive.org?
>
> There was a preservation effort to scan a lot of old game magazines from
> the eighties and nineties. Everybody was working in secrecy, and in the
> moment files were leaked, the copyright strikes fell like a hammer. Only
> a few issues have ever made it to archive.org, and they get removed often.

It's not like they're selling them nowadays.. Feels cruel to remove the
only source for their history

like Nintendo
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom