On Fri, 01 Mar 2024 02:18:31 +0000, Tyrone wrote:

> On Feb 29, 2024 at 8:53:45 PM EST, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 16:35:55 -0500, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Either way, it's a great feature, well implemented.
>>
>> But not really a recommendation for buying a macOS machine, is it?
>
> What makes you think you need a Mac for this?

Because that is what the thread is about. It’s about Unix pioneer Ken
Thompson giving up on Apple Macs in favour of a Linux machine.

On Feb 29, 2024 at 10:14:40 PM EST, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <ldo@nz.invalid>
wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Mar 2024 02:18:31 +0000, Tyrone wrote:
>
>> On Feb 29, 2024 at 8:53:45 PM EST, "Lawrence D'Oliveiro"
>> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 16:35:55 -0500, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Either way, it's a great feature, well implemented.
>>>
>>> But not really a recommendation for buying a macOS machine, is it?
>>
>> What makes you think you need a Mac for this?
>
> Because that is what the thread is about. It’s about Unix pioneer Ken
> Thompson giving up on Apple Macs in favour of a Linux machine.

Which has nothing to do with finding iPhones.

There is this thing called thread drift. Next time, try to pay attention.

On 2/29/2024 8:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 16:35:55 -0500, DFS wrote:
>
>> Either way, it's a great feature, well implemented.
>
> But not really a recommendation for buying a macOS machine, is it?

No, but that feature saved my wife's company probably $500.

On Fri, 1 Mar 2024 13:23:51 -0500, DFS wrote:

> On 2/29/2024 8:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> But not really a recommendation for buying a macOS machine, is it?
>
> No, but that feature saved my wife's company probably $500.

You can see why Ken Thompson got disillusioned though, can’t you.

On 3/2/2024 4:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Mar 2024 13:23:51 -0500, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 2/29/2024 8:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> But not really a recommendation for buying a macOS machine, is it?
>>
>> No, but that feature saved my wife's company probably $500.
>
> You can see why Ken Thompson got disillusioned though, can’t you.

I cannot.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have, for most of my life — because I was sort of born into it —
run Apple.

Now recently, meaning within the last five years, I've become more
and more depressed, and what Apple is doing to something that
should allow you to work is just atrocious. But they are taking a
lot of space and time to do it, so it's okay.

And I have come, within the last month or two, to say, even though
I've invested, you know, a zillion years in Apple — I'm throwing
it away. And I'm going to Linux. To Raspbian in particular."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"...what Apple is doing to something that should allow you to work is
just atrocious"

huh? I have NO idea what that means. Apple hardware/software doesn't
allow him to work? He can run Linux on his Apple using Parallels vm.

And his claim that he was "born into Apple" is strange, since he was
most likely around 40 when he got his first bit of Apple hardware.
Maybe he means his first personal computer was an Apple?

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:

>Maybe he means his first personal computer was an Apple?

The one my family had in 1991 served me very well at the time. We got
a PC in 1995. A real OS (W2K) in 2000.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Sat, 2 Mar 2024 17:50:07 -0500, DFS wrote:

> And his claim that he was "born into Apple" is strange, since he was
> most likely around 40 when he got his first bit of Apple hardware. Maybe
> he means his first personal computer was an Apple?

That's what I assumed. Even the most diehard people seldom had a PDP-11 in
the bedroom. The Apple II came out in '77 which would be about right for
the timing. Personally, I was working with the Z80 which channeled me into
the CP/M world rather than Apple's 6502.

I found the Raspian comment to be more interesting.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/how-two-volunteers-
built-the-raspberry-pis-operating-system/

I've thought about getting a Pi. It's a natural for a distributed
architecture where Arduinos are handling the low level tasks. The RPi pico
is also very interesting at the uC level.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-pico/

It can use MicroPython. I've been using CircuitPython, a derivative, with
one of the Adafruit offerings. However I have a Arduino Nano 33 BLE Sense
Rev2 sitting on the shelf and that can also use MicroPython after jumping
through a few hoops.

But back to the original thread, did Thompson mean he is using a RPi? He's
always been interested in space but I don't know about embedded. It's not
a stretch to say that running his 'Space Travel' game on Multics might be
responsible for Unix.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 16:06:29 -0500, -hh wrote:
>
>> True, one can't do brain salad surgery and replace CPUs, but for most
>> folk, that sort of DIY work died out after the 1990s, or 25+ years ago.
>
> Yeah, well it was a couple of weeks ago when I slapped a core i5 processor
> in my Dell box to replace the original Pentium. I also added a couple of
> sticks of DDR3 8GB RAM and a Crucial SATA SSD.

A Pentium? They were in Intel’s product lineup for 30 years, so just how
old
was this machine?

> The hardest part was getting those damn tiny screws started to mount the
> SSD in the 3.5 adapter.

Well yeah, that’s an age factor as well: the screws aren’t getting
smaller,
but we lose dexterity in fingertips as we age.

-hh

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 16:06:29 -0500, -hh wrote:
>
>> On 2/29/24 12:44 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:> On Wed, 28 Feb 2024
>>>
>>> 21:21:52 -0500, -hh wrote:
>>>
>>>> probably similar to what they’ve done with the M1 & M2, including
>>>> the Pro/Max/Ultra architecture, where they can double them up to
>>>> build some monsters.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, not upgradeable ones.
>>
>> True, one can't do brain salad surgery and replace CPUs...
>
> But you expect to be able to upgrade things like RAM, or stick in a new
> graphics card, at least on a desktop machine.

For the small market share of surviving desktops.

Plus when one has wicked fast memory access & fast NVMe storage, the
performance hit of using virtual memory due to inadequate RAM just isn’t
as painful as it was years ago.

>> And the trade-off of this are systems which because of their much higher
>> degree of SoC integration can kick ass on things like how much data they
>> can internally push around.
>
> Yes, we know all that. But there is still a need for workstation-class
> machines that are adaptable to a range of workloads, like the old Mac Pro.
> Unfortunately Apple has effectively given up on that market.

So have a lot of the other traditional builders: try pricing out a serious
PC workstation and you’ll see that they’re not anywhere close to cheap
anymore .. I think the last one I did was ~$4K.

-hh

On 3/2/2024 5:59 PM, rbowman wrote:
> But back to the original thread, did Thompson mean he is using a RPi? He's
> always been interested in space but I don't know about embedded. It's not
> a stretch to say that running his 'Space Travel' game on Multics might be
> responsible for Unix.

I read somewhere it was his chess programming that did it.

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On Sat, 2 Mar 2024 20:53:02 -0500, -hh wrote:

> A Pentium? They were in Intel’s product lineup for 30 years, so just
> how old was this machine?

About 10 years old. It started life as Windows 7 and quickly became
OpenSUSE 13.2. The processors are 4th gen with the Haswell architecture.
> Well yeah, that’s an age factor as well: the screws aren’t getting
> smaller,
> but we lose dexterity in fingertips as we age.

The eyes don't help either. Since December I've been through two cataract
surgeries and a macular hole repair. Hopefully that's behind me but I'm
not planning to build boards with surface mount components not that I ever
did. I was out of hardware by the time that technology came it. Took all
the fun out of wire-wrapping a working Z80 computer on the kitchen table.

On 3/2/2024 6:59 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Mar 2024 17:50:07 -0500, DFS wrote:
>
>> And his claim that he was "born into Apple" is strange, since he was
>> most likely around 40 when he got his first bit of Apple hardware. Maybe
>> he means his first personal computer was an Apple?
>
> That's what I assumed. Even the most diehard people seldom had a PDP-11 in
> the bedroom. The Apple II came out in '77 which would be about right for
> the timing. Personally, I was working with the Z80 which channeled me into
> the CP/M world rather than Apple's 6502.
>
> I found the Raspian comment to be more interesting.
>
> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/how-two-volunteers-
> built-the-raspberry-pis-operating-system/
>
> I've thought about getting a Pi. It's a natural for a distributed
> architecture where Arduinos are handling the low level tasks. The RPi pico
> is also very interesting at the uC level.
>
> https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-pico/

I've thought about getting one too, possibly to host a homegrown
security / camera monitoring system at my house.

> It can use MicroPython. I've been using CircuitPython, a derivative, with
> one of the Adafruit offerings. However I have a Arduino Nano 33 BLE Sense
> Rev2 sitting on the shelf and that can also use MicroPython after jumping
> through a few hoops.

Damn. Is there any technology you haven't been involved with?

> But back to the original thread, did Thompson mean he is using a RPi? He's
> always been interested in space but I don't know about embedded. It's not
> a stretch to say that running his 'Space Travel' game on Multics might be
> responsible for Unix.

I doubt he uses a Raspberry Pi as his main system. Probably he's
trolling a little bit.

On 3/2/2024 10:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
> Since December I've been through two cataract
> surgeries and a macular hole repair.

Eat less frequently.

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On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 11:42:17 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> On 3/2/2024 10:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> Since December I've been through two cataract surgeries and a macular
>> hole repair.
>
>
> Eat less frequently.

What does that have to do with anything?

On 3 Mar 2024 18:12:17 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in
<l4jss0FklahU1@mid.individual.net>:

> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 11:42:17 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> On 3/2/2024 10:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> Since December I've been through two cataract surgeries and a macular
>>> hole repair.
>>
>>
>> Eat less frequently.
>
> What does that have to do with anything?

Iranian jingoism is a terrible thing to behold.

--
-v

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 10:35:23 -0500, DFS wrote:

>> It can use MicroPython. I've been using CircuitPython, a derivative,
>> with one of the Adafruit offerings. However I have a Arduino Nano 33
>> BLE Sense Rev2 sitting on the shelf and that can also use MicroPython
>> after jumping through a few hoops.
>
> Damn. Is there any technology you haven't been involved with?

I like playing around with microprocessors. That's pretty much where I
started but for the last 24 years I've been doing work that isn't hardware
oriented. Now I'm down to about 10 hours a week and have more time to
play.

The MicroPython with the Rev2 board has some limitations. I'm getting
output from the accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer, temperature,
humidity, and pressure but not the ambient light, proximity sensor, pr
microphone that I can get from C++.

The R-Pi pico and other boards that work with MicroPython don't have those
sensors so it's lagging a bit. MicroPython is also behind regular Python
so it doesn't have the match case statement or the f"" string
interpolation format. Still, it's interesting. The Arduino MicroPython is
a little rough and I don't think the PlatformIO plugin for VS Code is
ready for prime time so I'll most likely go back to C++.

Thompson may be trolling but the Raspberry Pi 5 isn't a slouch.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/raspberry-pi-5

It's a Debian branch so if you want to try Linux on a ARM processor it's
viable. There are some kits on Amazon for around $170 that have a case,
power supply, active cooling, and other trinkets or you can roll your own.

On 3/3/2024 12:12 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 11:42:17 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> On 3/2/2024 10:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> Since December I've been through two cataract surgeries and a macular
>>> hole repair.
>>
>>
>> Eat less frequently.
>
> What does that have to do with anything?

It has to do with health.

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rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Mar 2024 20:53:02 -0500, -hh wrote:
>
>
>> A Pentium? They were in Intel’s product lineup for 30 years, so just
>> how old was this machine?
>
> About 10 years old. It started life as Windows 7 and quickly became
> OpenSUSE 13.2. The processors are 4th gen with the Haswell architecture.

Something I’ve read with chip transplants is that the motherboard may be
old enough to be a bottleneck that limits the new CPU; hopefully that’s not
the case for you, or that there’s enough other benefits that still make it
worthwhile.

>> Well yeah, that’s an age factor as well: the screws aren’t getting
>> smaller, but we lose dexterity in fingertips as we age.
>
> The eyes don't help either. Since December I've been through two cataract
> surgeries and a macular hole repair.

I’m going to need cataract surgery soon; think I’m off to the
Ophthalmologist later this week for a checkup and update.

> Hopefully that's behind me but I'm
> not planning to build boards with surface mount components not that I ever
> did. I was out of hardware by the time that technology came it. Took all
> the fun out of wire-wrapping a working Z80 computer on the kitchen table.

It’s been over a decade since I was on the kitchen table with a soldering
iron; that was for assembling the circuits for a (scuba) Nitrox oxygen
sensor kit for $150 instead of the $300 retail price they were going for
back then.

-hh

On 3/3/2024 2:07 PM, -hh wrote:
> I’m going to need cataract surgery soon;

Eat less frequently.

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On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 15:07:54 -0500, -hh wrote:

> Something I’ve read with chip transplants is that the motherboard may be
> old enough to be a bottleneck that limits the new CPU; hopefully that’s
> not the case for you, or that there’s enough other benefits that still
> make it worthwhile.

No, it's replacing a 2 core Pentium with a 4 core i5 that operated at the
same speed. It's not a fantastic upgrade but for $17 I figured why not.
There are hotter processors that would fit the LGA 1150 but it only has a
300w PS and I didn't want to push it. It has twice the cache and a little
better GPU. It was sitting there using power so I figured I might as well
spruce it up. It was about $100 for the SSD, RAM, and processor.

> I’m going to need cataract surgery soon; think I’m off to the
> Ophthalmologist later this week for a checkup and update.

I put it off too long. The harder the cataract becomes the greater the
chance of complications but it went smoothly for me. The actual procedure
takes about 10 minutes and other than a regimen of eye drops you're good
to go.

The macular hole fix is more bothersome. The vitreous fluid is removed and
the eye inflated with sulfur hexafluoride to hold everything in place. For
two or three days after the surgery you maintain a face down posture,
staring at your toes and sleeping face down. The bubble is slowly replaced
with fluid. Right now it occupied about half of my visual field and being
a bubble it's bouncy which can be distracting.

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 13:29:22 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> On 3/3/2024 12:12 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 11:42:17 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/2/2024 10:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>>> Since December I've been through two cataract surgeries and a macular
>>>> hole repair.
>>>
>>>
>>> Eat less frequently.
>>
>> What does that have to do with anything?
>
>
> It has to do with health.

https://www.nei.nih.gov/learn-about-eye-health/eye-conditions-and-
diseases/cataracts

Your risk for cataracts goes up as you get older. You’re also at higher
risk if you:

Have certain health problems, like diabetes
Smoke
Drink too much alcohol
Have a family history of cataracts
Have had an eye injury, eye surgery, or radiation treatment on your upper
body
Have spent a lot of time in the sun
Take steroids — medicines used to treat some health problems, like
arthritis or allergies

I do not have diabetes and I neither smoke or drink alcohol. Guilty of
spending a lot of time in the sun, often at high altitudes. I got better
about eye protection with age but the process may have been in motion by
them.

The eye surgery I had 7 years ago is known to hasten the formation of
cataracts.

My BMI is within the normal weight range although being a Neanderthal it
is toward the high end rather than down with the gracile little ectomorphs
that make up your Modern Men.

On 3/3/2024 9:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 13:29:22 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> On 3/3/2024 12:12 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 11:42:17 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/2/2024 10:06 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> Since December I've been through two cataract surgeries and a macular
>>>>> hole repair.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eat less frequently.
>>>
>>> What does that have to do with anything?
>>
>>
>> It has to do with health.
>
> https://www.nei.nih.gov/learn-about-eye-health/eye-conditions-and-
> diseases/cataracts
>
> Your risk for cataracts goes up as you get older. You’re also at higher
> risk if you:
>
> Have certain health problems, like diabetes
> Smoke
> Drink too much alcohol
> Have a family history of cataracts
> Have had an eye injury, eye surgery, or radiation treatment on your upper
> body
> Have spent a lot of time in the sun
> Take steroids — medicines used to treat some health problems, like
> arthritis or allergies
>
> I do not have diabetes and I neither smoke or drink alcohol. Guilty of
> spending a lot of time in the sun, often at high altitudes. I got better
> about eye protection with age but the process may have been in motion by
> them.
>
> The eye surgery I had 7 years ago is known to hasten the formation of
> cataracts.
>
> My BMI is within the normal weight range although being a Neanderthal it
> is toward the high end rather than down with the gracile little ectomorphs
> that make up your Modern Men.
>

Hahhhahahh :-)

Despite all that, eat less frequently and at least half of your problems
will go away. That's what it did to me. Certainly most of the
carcinogens you're eating will go away. But that measure isn't just for
reducing the carcinogens, but to get a lot of stuff having to do with
metabolism, back in the order that human body can understand, and has
formed accordingly.

My frequency of eating is 1/8th of how frequent you guys eat. The amount
of food I take in is about 1/4th of what you eat in 48 hours. So I'm
eating 1/4th of the carcinogens that you're putting in your bodies. And
that's just for carcinogens. There are all sorts of other benefits also.

The body is a machine. A metabolism machine. The more you have it deal
with food, the faster it wears down. You cannot escape this reality.

Look at all the people who live 100+ or at least get very close to 100.
They're all light, eat little, and do not eat four times a day. Perhaps
just once a day, and that's when somebody is around pressing them to
eat. Those are the ones who live long.

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On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:42:41 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> My frequency of eating is 1/8th of how frequent you guys eat. The amount
> of food I take in is about 1/4th of what you eat in 48 hours. So I'm
> eating 1/4th of the carcinogens that you're putting in your bodies. And
> that's just for carcinogens. There are all sorts of other benefits also.

You have no idea how or what I eat.