Am 10.01.2024 um 04:20:04 Uhr schrieb immibis:

> On 1/9/24 13:45, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> > Marco Moock wrote:
> >
> >> Many systems still run X11
> >
> > Then those systems are obsolete and should be replaced.
> >
> >> and the nvidia blob doesn't support it
> >> (yet).
> >
> > That is the fault of nvidia, not the fault of Wayland. That
> > stalemate will continue until it stops.
> >
>
>
> Nvidia has no obligation to support Wayland. Open source means: if
> you don't like how something is done, do it yourself. If Wayland
> wants Nvidia support, it has to do it itself.

That applies if both software is FOSS, but the blob isn't.
Nobody except Nvidia knows how it internally works and that makes
compatibility much harder.

On 1/10/24 08:56, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 10.01.2024 um 04:20:04 Uhr schrieb immibis:
>
>> On 1/9/24 13:45, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>> Marco Moock wrote:
>>>
>>>> Many systems still run X11
>>>
>>> Then those systems are obsolete and should be replaced.
>>>
>>>> and the nvidia blob doesn't support it
>>>> (yet).
>>>
>>> That is the fault of nvidia, not the fault of Wayland. That
>>> stalemate will continue until it stops.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Nvidia has no obligation to support Wayland. Open source means: if
>> you don't like how something is done, do it yourself. If Wayland
>> wants Nvidia support, it has to do it itself.
>
> That applies if both software is FOSS, but the blob isn't.
> Nobody except Nvidia knows how it internally works and that makes
> compatibility much harder.
>

Reverse engineering exists, and they give you the Windows driver for
free. Most hardware vendors don't give specifications for most hardware.

Am 10.01.2024 um 09:22:50 Uhr schrieb immibis:

> On 1/10/24 08:56, Marco Moock wrote:
> > Am 10.01.2024 um 04:20:04 Uhr schrieb immibis:
> >
> >> On 1/9/24 13:45, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> >>> Marco Moock wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Many systems still run X11
> >>>
> >>> Then those systems are obsolete and should be replaced.
> >>>
> >>>> and the nvidia blob doesn't support
> >>>> it (yet).
> >>>
> >>> That is the fault of nvidia, not the fault of Wayland. That
> >>> stalemate will continue until it stops.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Nvidia has no obligation to support Wayland. Open source means: if
> >> you don't like how something is done, do it yourself. If Wayland
> >> wants Nvidia support, it has to do it itself.
> >
> > That applies if both software is FOSS, but the blob isn't.
> > Nobody except Nvidia knows how it internally works and that makes
> > compatibility much harder.
> >
>
> Reverse engineering exists, and they give you the Windows driver for
> free.

Reverse engineering is much harder. The Windows API/ABI is also
different than the Linux API/ABI.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 09/01/2024 12:43, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 08/01/2024 16:44, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>>> Wayland has already obsolesced X11 and will eventually completely
>>>> eliminate it everywhere. There is no stopping this.
>>>>
>>> As I said elsewhere, 'proof by assertion' is not an argument I consider
>>> to be valid
>> Wayland and X11 fill the same niche. Wayland is a better-designed
>> protocol than X11: see, for instance, its much simpler design and its
>> explicit support of protocol extensions. Wayland is actively maintained;
>> X11 cannot reasonably be considered to be so.
>> All of this points as evidence to Wayland obsolescing X11.
>
> The verb is 'obsolete' There is no verb from 'obsolescent'

Obsolesce (and obsolescing in particular) has been in continuous (and
mostly growing) use since the 1870s.

--
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On 09/01/2024 22:54, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 17:32:47 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 08/01/2024 16:44, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>
>>> Wayland has already obsolesced X11 and will eventually completely
>>> eliminate it everywhere. There is no stopping this.
>>>
>> As I said elsewhere, 'proof by assertion' is not an argument I consider
>> to be valid
>
> X11 development is essentially moribund, and has been for some years. Even
> the X11 developers themselves recognize Wayland as the future.
>

Ok, that's a lot better than 'proof by assertion'.
As far however as 'X11 development is essentially moribund' well as long
as you have a server that is bug free and meets the spec, why would you
want to develop it further?

> If you really care about it, nothing is stopping you from taking up the
> torch and continuing to carry X11 forward.

Me? As I said. I have no dog in this fight. I will use whatever becomes
the de facto standard, because it has become de facto standard! :-)

--
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eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 10/01/2024 03:23, immibis wrote:
> The whole
> point of switching away from X was to kill all the features people
> actually want.
>

I rather thought the intention (if not the actuality) was to kill all
the features people *didn't* want.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

On 10/01/2024 00:30, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On 9 Jan 2024 06:53:30 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> Performance with Wayland, so far as I could see, only seemed to be
>> considered in terms of 3D graphics ...
>
> All hardware graphics acceleration is centred around 3D APIs like OpenGL
> and Vulkan these days. So even a 2D graphical desktop gets implemented at
> the lowest level on top of these 3D APIs.
>
> That’s why, even if you think you don’t care about 3D graphics
> performance, you still do.
Fair point...

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

On 10/01/2024 07:49, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 09.01.2024 um 19:55:45 Uhr schrieb Dan Espen:
>
>> John McCue <jmccue@neutron.jmcunx.com> writes:
>>
>>> Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Marco Moock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From Wayland, I only hear about problems with graphic drivers
>>>>> (mostly Nvidia's crappy blob).
>>>>
>>>> That is the fault of nvidia, not the fault of Wayland.
>>>
>>> Agree, but I wish the Linux Foundation would get b**ls
>>> and forbid Nvidia usage in Linux until Nvidia opens up
>>> their GPUs.
>>
>> I sure hope not. I've tried to use Noveau multiple times, every time
>> I encounter some problem that is not in the Nvidia drivers.
>> Yes, I have filed problem reports.
>
> The problem with that is the manpower and the missing open
> specifications from nvidia.
> Reverse engineering is much harder than implementing something that is
> known.
>
When I was using nvidia cards, Nouveau was simply too slow, but Nvidia's
drivers were free and worked OK.

--
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On 10/01/2024 03:19, immibis wrote:
> On 1/9/24 10:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/01/2024 00:44, immibis wrote:
>>> Why can't I just send the server the pixels I want to draw?
>> Well you can. Its called an 'image'.
>>
>> But of course you must be young not to remember why we didn't send
>> pixels and developed 'fat' clients: Network bandwidth.
>>
>
> We've flipflopped between fat and thin clients throughout history. Now
> we're in an age of thin clients (web apps), trending towards fat.
>
A web browser is not a thin client.

> How do I send pixels to a Wayland server without involving a client-side
> GPU driver?

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On 10/01/2024 08:50, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 09/01/2024 12:43, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 08/01/2024 16:44, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>>>> Wayland has already obsolesced X11 and will eventually completely
>>>>> eliminate it everywhere. There is no stopping this.
>>>>>
>>>> As I said elsewhere, 'proof by assertion' is not an argument I consider
>>>> to be valid
>>> Wayland and X11 fill the same niche. Wayland is a better-designed
>>> protocol than X11: see, for instance, its much simpler design and its
>>> explicit support of protocol extensions. Wayland is actively maintained;
>>> X11 cannot reasonably be considered to be so.
>>> All of this points as evidence to Wayland obsolescing X11.
>>
>> The verb is 'obsolete' There is no verb from 'obsolescent'
>
> Obsolesce (and obsolescing in particular) has been in continuous (and
> mostly growing) use since the 1870s.
>
Not as a transitive verb

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...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> writes:

> It is also the user's decision to use it or use nouveau instead.

Assuming nouveau works. I don't even have top of the line GPUs usually
but still nouveau has mostly been able to produce only a black screen,
nothing else. And when it works, performance and features are usually
sub par.

I'd say it's the user's decision to pick the kind of hardware they like
and what kind of software support they're willing to deal with. Free
ideals may affect the choice but how much depends on the individual.

immibis wrote:

> On 1/9/24 14:03, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>> immibis wrote:
>>
>>> Did you know that Wayland clients aren't allowed to know or set their
>>> window coordinates on the screen?
>>
>> Might ask i you what purpose for which the usefulness of such things
>> would be?
>>
>>
> Thanks for demonstrating the kind of mental illness which Wayland
> supporters somehow all develop. "Why would you want to know the
> coordinates on the screen of the windows you're showing on the screen?"

Humor me, will ya?

--
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Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
Five envelopes left!

immibis wrote:

> Open source means: if you
> don't like how something is done, do it yourself.

That is dogmatic and unnuanced.

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blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
For a bad time, ping 233.252.0.149!

Marco Moock wrote:

> Am 09.01.2024 um 23:29:04 Uhr schrieb Blue-Maned_Hawk:
>
>> Marco Moock wrote:
>>
>> > New versions were recently released. Isn't that a proof that [X11]
>> > is still developed?
>>
>> Is this an actual official effort, or is it simply the ignorant last
>> vestiges of X11 supporters futilely trying to keep it alive? If it is
>> an official effort, is it anything more than basic maintainence or a
>> security fix?
>
> What is the problem with that?
> Most of the features already exist.

You did not answer my question and i do not know what you are asking
about.

>> > What can the people who need X11-exclusive features do?
>>
>> Fight for inclusion of those features into Wayland.
>
> Rather unlikely that this fight can be won because Wayland is designed
> to have less features that X11 because only a small amount of users use
> them.

That does not preclude any particular feature from being one of those
which are worth incorporating.

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blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

immibis wrote:

> If Wayland includes all the X features, it won't be Wayland. The whole
> point of switching away from X was to kill all the features people
> actually want.

What is your evidence for that?

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blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
The `%n` specifier for printf is rarely used except to cause problems.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> All hardware graphics acceleration is centred around 3D APIs like OpenGL
> and Vulkan these days.

With how much “graphics” processing units are used for other
paralelization tasks, it seems to me like they ought to be renamed to be
more reflective of their function.

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blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
Weirder than you thought!

Marco Moock wrote:

> Am 10.01.2024 um 02:20:54 Uhr schrieb John McCue:
>> It breaks the spirit of the GPL where many people are forced to use a
>> proprietary blob on an open system.
>
> This isn't covered by the GPL.

_Spirit_.

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immibis wrote:

> It's also standard and default practice, and not only in the realm of
> graphics drivers. I'm sure you've written code that you won't let me
> see.

Normalcy does not implicate morality. I would only restrict the free and
open flow of information if dire circumstances forced me to; what nvidia
does cannot be justified under that justification.

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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> As far however as 'X11 development is essentially moribund' well as long
> as you have a server that is bug free and meets the spec, why would you
> want to develop it further?

Certainly there are instances of such things where they would be
maintained to fix problems if they needed to be, but they just haven't
needed to be in a while—OpenGL to mine own mind first comes. X11 is not
one of those things; there are problems in it that are not going to be
fixed.

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blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
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On 10/01/2024 13:26, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:

>
> Normalcy does not implicate morality.

WTF has morality to do with operating systems?

--
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:21:25 -0000 (UTC), Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> All hardware graphics acceleration is centred around 3D APIs like
>> OpenGL and Vulkan these days.
>
> With how much “graphics” processing units are used for other
> paralelization tasks, it seems to me like they ought to be renamed to be
> more reflective of their function.

OpenCL, anybody?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:15:05 -0000 (UTC), Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:

> immibis wrote:
>
>> Open source means: if you don't like how something is done, do it
>> yourself.
>
> That is dogmatic and unnuanced.

That is exactly how all those open source projects got started.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 10/01/2024 08:50, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 09/01/2024 12:43, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 08/01/2024 16:44, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>>>>>> Wayland has already obsolesced X11 and will eventually completely
>>>>>> eliminate it everywhere. There is no stopping this.
>>>>>>
>>>>> As I said elsewhere, 'proof by assertion' is not an argument I consider
>>>>> to be valid
>>>> Wayland and X11 fill the same niche. Wayland is a better-designed
>>>> protocol than X11: see, for instance, its much simpler design and its
>>>> explicit support of protocol extensions. Wayland is actively maintained;
>>>> X11 cannot reasonably be considered to be so.
>>>> All of this points as evidence to Wayland obsolescing X11.
>>>
>>> The verb is 'obsolete' There is no verb from 'obsolescent'
>> Obsolesce (and obsolescing in particular) has been in continuous
>> (and
>> mostly growing) use since the 1870s.
>>
> Not as a transitive verb

Pretty obvious extension from the intransitive form though.

--
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Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> Am 10.01.2024 um 07:09:15 Uhr schrieb Marc Haber:
>
>> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>> >At least, ssh provides -C to compress all the stuff that massively
>> >reduced the load.
>>
>> Which further increases the latency.
>
> Without compression it consumes so much bandwidth (especially when
> using GTK or Qt) that it can't be used on the internet unless you have
> a really fast connection.

Indeed, the delay compressing/decompressing the data is made up for
by the increased speed of transferring the data over the internet.

There have also been various specialised compression systems for X.
NX/NoMachine and forks are current options.

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__ __
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Am 11.01.2024 um 07:13:37 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd Kev:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> > Am 10.01.2024 um 07:09:15 Uhr schrieb Marc Haber:
> >
> >> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> >> >At least, ssh provides -C to compress all the stuff that massively
> >> >reduced the load.
> >>
> >> Which further increases the latency.
> >
> > Without compression it consumes so much bandwidth (especially when
> > using GTK or Qt) that it can't be used on the internet unless you
> > have a really fast connection.
>
> Indeed, the delay compressing/decompressing the data is made up for
> by the increased speed of transferring the data over the internet.

I've now tried that with Firefox on a local network (same Ethernet
link, no routing).
With compressing, a latency was visible when scrolling in Firefox with
X11 forwarding. It used ~100 MBit/s, most time less.
Without compression, it used ~800 MBit/s, but was more smoothly.