On 9 Jan 2024 05:04:20 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

> Are the rumors true that Wayland is hard-limited to the Doze-like
> focus-on-top-window-only restriction?

Of course not.

On 9 Jan 2024 07:14:23 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> Xlib is the API ...

Xlib is a client-side (?) library that implements the X11 protocol. There
are some deficiencies in the structure of that, which is why an
alternative library, XCB, was developed.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:44:51 +0100, immibis wrote:

> Why should a display system require every client application to
> possess a full GPU driver?

Because there are loads of different client-side rendering libraries
available, and different apps want to choose different ones for different
reasons. The X11 graphics API wasn’t even a particularly good one.

At one time, X11 even offered a font server. But that (thankfully)
disappeared a long time ago.

> Why can't I just send the server the pixels I want to draw?

That’s exactly what Wayland does. Use your client-side library to render
your graphics structures/primitives/commands to pixels, then send those
rendered pixels to the Wayland display server.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 17:32:47 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 08/01/2024 16:44, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>
>> Wayland has already obsolesced X11 and will eventually completely
>> eliminate it everywhere. There is no stopping this.
>>
> As I said elsewhere, 'proof by assertion' is not an argument I consider
> to be valid

X11 development is essentially moribund, and has been for some years. Even
the X11 developers themselves recognize Wayland as the future.

If you really care about it, nothing is stopping you from taking up the
torch and continuing to carry X11 forward.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 13:42:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 09/01/2024 12:43, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
>
>> All of this points as evidence to Wayland obsolescing X11.
>>
> The verb is 'obsolete' There is no verb from 'obsolescent'

Intransitive verb? “X11 continues to obsolesce”.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Nothing stops ypu owning a web server

Poverty.

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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> The verb is 'obsolete' There is no verb from 'obsolescent'

“who give a shit.”
— René Descartes [disputed]

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It hasn't killed anybody yet!

Marco Moock wrote:

> New versions were recently released. Isn't that a proof that [X11] is
> still developed?

Is this an actual official effort, or is it simply the ignorant last
vestiges of X11 supporters futilely trying to keep it alive? If it is an
official effort, is it anything more than basic maintainence or a security
fix?

> What can the people who need X11-exclusive features do?

Fight for inclusion of those features into Wayland.

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If you can manage to pull this off, everyone will hate you, and that's
what this game is all about.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 02:08:33 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

> RDP/VNC/etc. do not provide the same setup because they require the
> remote system to at a minimum be running an X session with at least the
> framebuffer console on a video card on the remote machine.

At least they offer network transparency. That means that loss of the
network connection will not kill the remote GUI clients. You can
disconnect, then reconnect at some later time, and they will still be
running.

On 9 Jan 2024 06:53:30 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> Performance with Wayland, so far as I could see, only seemed to be
> considered in terms of 3D graphics ...

All hardware graphics acceleration is centred around 3D APIs like OpenGL
and Vulkan these days. So even a 2D graphical desktop gets implemented at
the lowest level on top of these 3D APIs.

That’s why, even if you think you don’t care about 3D graphics
performance, you still do.

John McCue <jmccue@neutron.jmcunx.com> writes:

> Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Marco Moock wrote:
>>
>>> From Wayland, I only hear about problems with graphic drivers (mostly
>>> Nvidia's crappy blob).
>>
>> That is the fault of nvidia, not the fault of Wayland.
>
> Agree, but I wish the Linux Foundation would get b**ls
> and forbid Nvidia usage in Linux until Nvidia opens up
> their GPUs.

I sure hope not. I've tried to use Noveau multiple times, every time I
encounter some problem that is not in the Nvidia drivers.
Yes, I have filed problem reports.

> But the Foundation is now controlled by fortune 500
> Companies, so that will never happen :(

Baseless BS, it stinks.

--
Dan Espen

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> Am 08.01.2024 um 16:58:35 Uhr schrieb John McCue:
>
>> Agree, but I wish the Linux Foundation would get b**ls
>> and forbid Nvidia usage in Linux until Nvidia opens up
>> their GPUs.
>
> How is that compatible with the GPLv2?

It breaks the spirit of the GPL where many people are forced
to use a proprietary blob on an open system.

Plus if you have an old Nvidia card and the blob becomes
unsupported, you need to buy a new card. That happened to
me around 10 years ago because nouveau did not work with
that card. In that case I picked up a fully open card.

Also if you use OpenBSD or NetBSD, pretty much all systems
with Nvidia cannot be used. NetBSD has some support, but it
still has issues with nouveau in many cases.

<snip>

On 1/9/24 10:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/01/2024 00:44, immibis wrote:
>> Why can't I just send the server the pixels I want to draw?
> Well you can. Its called an 'image'.
>
> But of course you must be young not to remember why we didn't send
> pixels and developed 'fat' clients: Network bandwidth.
>

We've flipflopped between fat and thin clients throughout history. Now
we're in an age of thin clients (web apps), trending towards fat.

How do I send pixels to a Wayland server without involving a client-side
GPU driver?

On 1/9/24 13:45, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> Many systems still run X11
>
> Then those systems are obsolete and should be replaced.
>
>> and the nvidia blob doesn't support it (yet).
>
> That is the fault of nvidia, not the fault of Wayland. That stalemate
> will continue until it stops.
>

Nvidia has no obligation to support Wayland. Open source means: if you
don't like how something is done, do it yourself. If Wayland wants
Nvidia support, it has to do it itself.

On 1/9/24 13:36, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> immibis wrote:
>
>> It's not like Nvidia has any obligation to support non-Windows
>> platforms. We wish they would, but they don't have to.
>
> A refusal to tell how the devices they create work, holding all those who
> use them hostage to their own code, is a hostile and immoral business
> tactic.
>

It's also standard and default practice, and not only in the realm of
graphics drivers. I'm sure you've written code that you won't let me see.

On 1/10/24 00:29, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> New versions were recently released. Isn't that a proof that [X11] is
>> still developed?
>
> Is this an actual official effort, or is it simply the ignorant last
> vestiges of X11 supporters futilely trying to keep it alive? If it is an
> official effort, is it anything more than basic maintainence or a security
> fix?
>
>> What can the people who need X11-exclusive features do?
>
> Fight for inclusion of those features into Wayland.
>

If Wayland includes all the X features, it won't be Wayland. The whole
point of switching away from X was to kill all the features people
actually want.

On 1/9/24 14:03, Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> immibis wrote:
>
>> Did you know that Wayland clients aren't allowed to know or set their
>> window coordinates on the screen?
>
> Might ask i you what purpose for which the usefulness
> of such things would be?
>

Thanks for demonstrating the kind of mental illness which Wayland
supporters somehow all develop. "Why would you want to know the
coordinates on the screen of the windows you're showing on the screen?"

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:23:03 +0100, immibis wrote:

> The whole point of switching away from X was to kill all the features
> people actually want.

Because of the sheer market dominance of Free Software, Inc, there can
never be realistic alternatives for users, can they.

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>X11 remote windows are perfectly integrated in the desktop environment
>of the remote machine.

But X11 remote windows are also abysmally slow when compared to an RDP
session since the X11 network protocol is totally killed by network
latency because it needs to many round trips to work.

Greetings
Marc
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Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>At least, ssh provides -C to compress all the stuff that massively
>reduced the load.

Which further increases the latency.

Greetings
Marc
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Am 10.01.2024 um 02:20:54 Uhr schrieb John McCue:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> > Am 08.01.2024 um 16:58:35 Uhr schrieb John McCue:
> >
> >> Agree, but I wish the Linux Foundation would get b**ls
> >> and forbid Nvidia usage in Linux until Nvidia opens up
> >> their GPUs.
> >
> > How is that compatible with the GPLv2?
>
> It breaks the spirit of the GPL where many people are forced
> to use a proprietary blob on an open system.

This isn't covered by the GPL. The GPL applies to the Linux kernel and
other software and allows you to use it as YOU wish. That means you are
allowed to run proprietary software on it that is under a different
license.
The GPL only applies to the products that are covered by it and does
not apply to the blob.

> Plus if you have an old Nvidia card and the blob becomes
> unsupported, you need to buy a new card.

Or use nouveau if it supports the card.

> That happened to me around 10 years ago because nouveau did not work
> with that card. In that case I picked up a fully open card.

That is always the best way.

Am 09.01.2024 um 19:55:45 Uhr schrieb Dan Espen:

> John McCue <jmccue@neutron.jmcunx.com> writes:
>
> > Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> Marco Moock wrote:
> >>
> >>> From Wayland, I only hear about problems with graphic drivers
> >>> (mostly Nvidia's crappy blob).
> >>
> >> That is the fault of nvidia, not the fault of Wayland.
> >
> > Agree, but I wish the Linux Foundation would get b**ls
> > and forbid Nvidia usage in Linux until Nvidia opens up
> > their GPUs.
>
> I sure hope not. I've tried to use Noveau multiple times, every time
> I encounter some problem that is not in the Nvidia drivers.
> Yes, I have filed problem reports.

The problem with that is the manpower and the missing open
specifications from nvidia.
Reverse engineering is much harder than implementing something that is
known.

Am 10.01.2024 um 07:08:42 Uhr schrieb Marc Haber:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> >X11 remote windows are perfectly integrated in the desktop
> >environment of the remote machine.
>
> But X11 remote windows are also abysmally slow when compared to an RDP
> session since the X11 network protocol is totally killed by network
> latency because it needs to many round trips to work.

Agreed, but in my own network the latency is low and applications run
fast when I need to access some on the desktop PC in the office from
the laptop elsewhere.
Much more comfortable than RDP/VNC.

Am 10.01.2024 um 07:09:15 Uhr schrieb Marc Haber:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> >At least, ssh provides -C to compress all the stuff that massively
> >reduced the load.
>
> Which further increases the latency.

Without compression it consumes so much bandwidth (especially when
using GTK or Qt) that it can't be used on the internet unless you have
a really fast connection.

Am 09.01.2024 um 23:29:04 Uhr schrieb Blue-Maned_Hawk:

> Marco Moock wrote:
>
> > New versions were recently released. Isn't that a proof that [X11]
> > is still developed?
>
> Is this an actual official effort, or is it simply the ignorant last
> vestiges of X11 supporters futilely trying to keep it alive? If it
> is an official effort, is it anything more than basic maintainence or
> a security fix?

What is the problem with that?
Most of the features already exist.

> > What can the people who need X11-exclusive features do?
>
> Fight for inclusion of those features into Wayland.

Rather unlikely that this fight can be won because Wayland is designed
to have less features that X11 because only a small amount of users use
them.