On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> Biggest mistake I ever made was to throw all my Amigas out.

Would you like one or two?

> I am also using Linux now.
> I spent WAY too long running Windows for work, and finally got totally
> fed up with it.

I'm still at it. I like to say that my software doesn't so much run
under Windows as despite it. However, I also build Linux versions,
and we have a few Linux customers out there. Hopefully there will
be more.

To build and test my stuff, I run XP under VirtualBox. XP is the
last version of Windows that I can tolerate at all, and if my stuff
runs there it'll run under whatever newer version our customers are
afflicted with. The front-end stuff has been taken over by someone
else, so I don't need get into all that fluff - I just sit in the
background doing the heavy lifting, and communicate with the world
via sockets.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 09:06:21 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>>>> main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>>>
>>>> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
>>>> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
>>>> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
>>>> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
>>>> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
>>>> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
>>>> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
>>>> similar size.
>>>>
>>>> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
>>>> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.
>>>
>>> Take another look at the picture.
>>>
>>> 1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.
>>
>> I think that the “K” there is decimal, i.e. 4,000 characters (4KC?) not
>> 4,096 - or is that digits?
>
>Yes, 4,000 characters.
>
>> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
>> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
>> character, so six bits could be a byte.
>
>Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.

Nor had I.

On 2022-11-09 13:00, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> Are you _that_ Larry?
>> I'm still living in the same place, but I'm running Linux now.
>> Although I still have four Amigas in storage...
> There's a game by Garry Flynn for the Pet 2001 called "Titrate".
> When you're very good, it will PRINT "Is that you, Garry?".

I remember it well. The PET was my fourth computer. The first two, I
built with parts. The third was a COSMAC Elf.

--
I have a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

On 2022-11-09 15:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> Biggest mistake I ever made was to throw all my Amigas out.
>
> Would you like one or two?

Gasp! Two, please.
What would you want for them?
And how should I contact you?

>> I am also using Linux now.
>> I spent WAY too long running Windows for work, and finally got totally
>> fed up with it.
>
> I'm still at it. I like to say that my software doesn't so much run
> under Windows as despite it. However, I also build Linux versions,
> and we have a few Linux customers out there. Hopefully there will
> be more.
>
> To build and test my stuff, I run XP under VirtualBox. XP is the
> last version of Windows that I can tolerate at all, and if my stuff
> runs there it'll run under whatever newer version our customers are
> afflicted with. The front-end stuff has been taken over by someone
> else, so I don't need get into all that fluff - I just sit in the
> background doing the heavy lifting, and communicate with the world
> via sockets.

Sounds like you're still having fun.

I still have a Windows box, it's on the same LAN as one of my Linux
boxes. I need it for my call recording software and for Adobe Digital
Editions, neither of which have a Linux version

My other Linux machine is a Pi4 on my second IP address.

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>>>> main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>>>
>>>> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
>>>> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
>>>> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
>>>> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
>>>> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
>>>> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
>>>> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
>>>> similar size.
>>>>
>>>> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
>>>> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.
>>>
>>> Take another look at the picture.
>>>
>>> 1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.
>>
>> I think that the “K” there is decimal, i.e. 4,000 characters (4KC?) not
>> 4,096 - or is that digits?
>
> Yes, 4,000 characters.
>
>> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
>> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
>> character, so six bits could be a byte.
>
> Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.
>

I’d have to look it up to see where it came from. I know the PDP-10 had the
ability to handle various byte sizes, and I think they used the term. I
think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> Biggest mistake I ever made was to throw all my Amigas out.
>
> Would you like one or two?
>
>> I am also using Linux now.
>> I spent WAY too long running Windows for work, and finally got totally
>> fed up with it.
>
> I'm still at it. I like to say that my software doesn't so much run
> under Windows as despite it. However, I also build Linux versions,
> and we have a few Linux customers out there. Hopefully there will
> be more.
>
> To build and test my stuff, I run XP under VirtualBox. XP is the
> last version of Windows that I can tolerate at all, and if my stuff
> runs there it'll run under whatever newer version our customers are
> afflicted with. The front-end stuff has been taken over by someone
> else, so I don't need get into all that fluff - I just sit in the
> background doing the heavy lifting, and communicate with the world
> via sockets.
>

XP wasn’t too bad. When I shared a machine with Spouse she needed to have
‘Doz, so I used that a bit. I have it now on VirtualBox because I
occasionally have to use Windows PL/I to see how something is supposed to
work. I had some games I used to play, some day I’ll install them on XP,
too.

--
Pete

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 13:06:21 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>On 2022-11-09 12:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-11-08 16:42, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
>>>> That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
>>>> two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
>>>> drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
>>>> the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)
>>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs of Panorama fame?
>>
>> Are you _that_ Larry?
>
>Indeed. That be me.
>
>> I'm still living in the same place, but I'm running Linux now.
>> Although I still have four Amigas in storage...
>
>Biggest mistake I ever made was to throw all my Amigas out.
>
>I am also using Linux now.
>I spent WAY too long running Windows for work, and finally got totally
>fed up with it.

There appears to be a Pi emulator for Amiga, along with an SD card
drive that can hold hundreds of programs. I wonder if my Fred Fish
floppies will fit ?
--
Jim

On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> [...]
>>> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
>>> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
>>> character, so six bits could be a byte.
>>
>> Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.
>
> I’d have to look it up to see where it came from. I know the PDP-10 had the
> ability to handle various byte sizes, and I think they used the term.

Yes, but

- The PDP-10 came out a couple of years after the S/360.

- "Byte" for PDP-10 is not specifically intended for representing
characters. It is just any chunk that is smaller than a 36-bit
word.

- The PDP-10 can extract a byte (into a 36-bit register) with a
single instruction via a 36-bit pointer, but is not really
byte-addressable. I.e., the memory address lines are still
word granular.

whereas for the s/360

- byte is specifically for representing an EBCDIC character; or
two BCD (binary coded decimal) digits

- address lines are byte-granular (and thus the s/360 can have
variable length instructions, which is the real payout)

> think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
> called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.

The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.

Around MIT's ITS (PDP-10) environs, a 7-bit ASCII character was
simply an ASCII character. ASCII characters were generally
packed 5 to a 36-bit word.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

On 2022-11-10, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2022-11-09 15:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Biggest mistake I ever made was to throw all my Amigas out.
>>
>> Would you like one or two?
>
> Gasp! Two, please.
> What would you want for them?
> And how should I contact you?

E-mail me. See my .sig.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 10/11/2022 17:04, Tak To wrote:
> On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> [...]
>>>> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
>>>> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
>>>> character, so six bits could be a byte.
>>>
>>> Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.
>>
>> I’d have to look it up to see where it came from. I know the PDP-10 had the
>> ability to handle various byte sizes, and I think they used the term.
>
> Yes, but
>
> - The PDP-10 came out a couple of years after the S/360.
>
> - "Byte" for PDP-10 is not specifically intended for representing
> characters. It is just any chunk that is smaller than a 36-bit
> word.
>
> - The PDP-10 can extract a byte (into a 36-bit register) with a
> single instruction via a 36-bit pointer, but is not really
> byte-addressable. I.e., the memory address lines are still
> word granular.
>
> whereas for the s/360
>
> - byte is specifically for representing an EBCDIC character; or
> two BCD (binary coded decimal) digits
>
> - address lines are byte-granular (and thus the s/360 can have
> variable length instructions, which is the real payout)
>
>> think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
>> called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.
>
> The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
> and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.
>
> Around MIT's ITS (PDP-10) environs, a 7-bit ASCII character was
> simply an ASCII character. ASCII characters were generally
> packed 5 to a 36-bit word.
>
PDP-10 is a long time ago, but I don't recall any byte type stuff.
Strings were as you say packed as 5x7-bit chars in a word. And there
were SIXBIT strings too - 6-bit characters, as used in filenames.

I can't recall anything that allowed you to pull parts of words out.

Andy

Den 10-11-2022 kl. 18:04 skrev Tak To:
> On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> [... I ...]
>> think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
>> called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.
>
> The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
> and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.

My memory is *very* hazy, but the system I used in my first year
at university answers to that description.
I'm fairly sure it was a UNIVAC; probably a model 1100.

Since then, every byte I've come across has been 8 bits.

/Anders, Denmark

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:09:59 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:

> PDP-10 is a long time ago, but I don't recall any byte type stuff.
> Strings were as you say packed as 5x7-bit chars in a word. And there
> were SIXBIT strings too - 6-bit characters, as used in filenames.
>
> I can't recall anything that allowed you to pull parts of words out.

It had byte pointers which allowed such selection.

http://pdp10.nocrew.org/docs/instruction-set/Byte.html

It was also true on the PDP-6, and that came out the same year as the IBM
360 (1964).

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Tak To <takto@alum.mit.eduxx> writes:

> On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
> > Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> >>> [...]
> >>> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
> >>> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
> >>> character, so six bits could be a byte.
> >>
> >> Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.
> >
> > I’d have to look it up to see where it came from. I know the PDP-10 had the
> > ability to handle various byte sizes, and I think they used the term.
>
> Yes, but
>
> - The PDP-10 came out a couple of years after the S/360.

The PDP-6 is the origin of the architecture. It was announced in March 1964 in
Business Week, 3 weeks before the announcement of the IBM System/360 in April.

First customer ship of the PDP-6 was in June 1964; FCS of the System/360 was in
October 1965.

> - "Byte" for PDP-10 is not specifically intended for representing
> characters. It is just any chunk that is smaller than a 36-bit
> word.

The original definition of a byte, in signal processing, was "a collection of
bits", and had nothing to do with characters, or memory words.

The PDP-6 usage of the term is based on that original definition.

> - The PDP-10 can extract a byte (into a 36-bit register) with a
> single instruction via a 36-bit pointer, but is not really
> byte-addressable. I.e., the memory address lines are still
> word granular.

No one ever said that was addressable at the character level!

[ snip irrelevancies ]

> > think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
> > called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.

> The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
> and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.

They were called "characters", as were 6 bit entities.

> Around MIT's ITS (PDP-10) environs, a 7-bit ASCII character was simply an
> ASCII character. ASCII characters were generally packed 5 to a 36-bit word.

That is also the format for ASCII text in the DEC operating systems for the
PDP-6 (on which ITS originally ran) and PDP-10. Nothing special about MIT
here.

And the 7 bit entities treated as ASCII characters are called "bytes" when
manipulating them with byte pointers in the relevant instructions.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:

> PDP-10 is a long time ago, but I don't recall any byte type stuff.
> Strings were as you say packed as 5x7-bit chars in a word. And there
> were SIXBIT strings too - 6-bit characters, as used in filenames.

> I can't recall anything that allowed you to pull parts of words out.

Then that's a function of your failing memory.

The PDP-6/10 instruction set includes LDB, DPB, ILDB, and IDPB: Load byte
pointed to by the byte pointer addressed in the instruction, deposit byte to
the addressed byte pointer, increment the byte pointer and load the noewly
addressed byte, increment the byte pointer and deposit into the newly addressed
byte location.

Bytes may be any size from 1 to 36 bits.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

"Anders D. Nygaard" <news2012adn@gmail.com> writes:

> Den 10-11-2022 kl. 18:04 skrev Tak To:
> > On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
> >> [... I ...]
> >> think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
> >> called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.
> >
> > The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
> > and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.
>
> My memory is *very* hazy, but the system I used in my first year
> at university answers to that description.
> I'm fairly sure it was a UNIVAC; probably a model 1100.
>
> Since then, every byte I've come across has been 8 bits.

Because the 400kg gorilla from Armonk changed the definition.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

On 2022-11-10, Anders D. Nygaard <news2012adn@gmail.com> wrote:
> Den 10-11-2022 kl. 18:04 skrev Tak To:
>> On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> [... I ...]
>>> think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
>>> called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.
>>
>> The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
>> and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.
>
> My memory is *very* hazy, but the system I used in my first year
> at university answers to that description.
> I'm fairly sure it was a UNIVAC; probably a model 1100.
>
> Since then, every byte I've come across has been 8 bits.
>
> /Anders, Denmark

I remember the BBS's time, the communications program had to be set. I
remember that 8n1 was a good general setting. The local telecom called
bytes `octets'. what would develope into the internet was *very*
expensive. Many people had `blue-boxes'. I made one but never used it.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

In article <mddk042w40y.fsf@panix5.panix.com>,
Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
>Tak To <takto@alum.mit.eduxx> writes:

>> On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:

> [ snip irrelevancies ]

>> > think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
>> > called them bytes. 'Characters' was the term of art earlier.

>> The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
>> and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.

>They were called "characters", as were 6 bit entities.

The PL/I language used the type identifier "character" (or "char"),
but at the Multics OS level they were often (perhaps even usually)
called "bytes". I remember having numerous discussions with external
people about bytes not being synonymous with 8-bit fields.

To verify my memory I just grepped about a dozen Multics manuals for
"byte". I got 600+ matches, of which about a tenth were the set
phrase "9-bit byte". For instance, in the Multics Reference Guide
(AG91, Dec 1975), there are lines such as:

An unstructured file contains a sequence of 9-bit bytes.

A character string (packed or unpacked) whose length is n
occupies n consecutive 9-bit bytes. Each byte contains a
single 7-bit ASCII character right justified within the byte.

The Multics hardware supported 6-bit fields (indeed called
characters), but I can't think of any aspect of the Multics OS
architecture that used 6-bit fields.

>> Around MIT's ITS (PDP-10) environs, a 7-bit ASCII character was simply an
>> ASCII character. ASCII characters were generally packed 5 to a 36-bit word.

>That is also the format for ASCII text in the DEC operating systems for the
>PDP-6 (on which ITS originally ran) and PDP-10. Nothing special about MIT
>here.

>And the 7 bit entities treated as ASCII characters are called "bytes" when
>manipulating them with byte pointers in the relevant instructions.

To the best of my memory the use of "byte" in Multics preceded my
acquaintance with it, but there were enough PDP-10s (and a PDP-6)
around that it was difficult to move without tripping over one. This
probably helped with the insertion of the term "byte" into Multics
terminology.

Also, I will add that at least the KCC C compiler on the PDP-10 also
stored characters in the same form of 7-bit ASCII right justified in a
9-bit byte field. (The "extra" bit at the end of normal PDP-10 ASCII
(5*7+1) isn't allowed for "char" types in the C language.)

- dmw
--
.. Douglas Wells . nr201404@gmail.com .

Anders D. Nygaard <news2012adn@gmail.com> wrote:
> Den 10-11-2022 kl. 18:04 skrev Tak To:
>> On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> [... I ...]
>>> think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
>>> called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.
>>
>> The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
>> and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.
>
> My memory is *very* hazy, but the system I used in my first year
> at university answers to that description.
> I'm fairly sure it was a UNIVAC; probably a model 1100.
>

Yes, I think that one too. IIRC 110x used both 6 and 9 bit characters.

> Since then, every byte I've come across has been 8 bits.
>
> /Anders, Denmark
>

--
Pete

On 11/11/2022 03:45, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Then that's a function of your failing memory.

Agreed. Thank you, and also Bob for the doc link.

I really liked the PDP-10 instruction set. OTOH, it was my first!

Andy

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 21:30:33 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:

> On 11/11/2022 03:45, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Then that's a function of your failing memory.
>
> Agreed. Thank you, and also Bob for the doc link.
>
> I really liked the PDP-10 instruction set. OTOH, it was my first!

It was about my fourth. My first was the Elliott/ICL 4100 series, which
is rarely mentioned.

The PDP-10's instruction set was so orthogonal that there was a complete
set of conditional jumps and skips. For example, JUMP was a no-op. JUMPA
was an unconditional jump. (but JRST was reputedly faster)

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 11/11/2022 5:47 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 21:30:33 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:
>
>> On 11/11/2022 03:45, Rich Alderson wrote:
>>> Then that's a function of your failing memory.
>>
>> Agreed. Thank you, and also Bob for the doc link.
>>
>> I really liked the PDP-10 instruction set. OTOH, it was my first!
>
> It was about my fourth. My first was the Elliott/ICL 4100 series, which
> is rarely mentioned.
>
> The PDP-10's instruction set was so orthogonal that there was a complete
> set of conditional jumps and skips. For example, JUMP was a no-op. JUMPA
> was an unconditional jump. (but JRST was reputedly faster)

Yes. And the fastest no-op is JFCL.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

On 11/10/2022 10:42 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Tak To <takto@alum.mit.eduxx> writes:
>
>> On 11/10/2022 8:40 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
>>>>> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
>>>>> character, so six bits could be a byte.
>>>>
>>>> Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.
>>>
>>> I’d have to look it up to see where it came from. I know the PDP-10 had the
>>> ability to handle various byte sizes, and I think they used the term.
>>
>> Yes, but
>>
>> - The PDP-10 came out a couple of years after the S/360.
>
> The PDP-6 is the origin of the architecture. It was announced in March 1964 in
> Business Week, 3 weeks before the announcement of the IBM System/360 in April.
>
> First customer ship of the PDP-6 was in June 1964; FCS of the System/360 was in
> October 1965.
>
>> - "Byte" for PDP-10 is not specifically intended for representing
>> characters. It is just any chunk that is smaller than a 36-bit
>> word.
>
> The original definition of a byte, in signal processing, was "a collection of
> bits", and had nothing to do with characters, or memory words.
>
> The PDP-6 usage of the term is based on that original definition.
>
>> - The PDP-10 can extract a byte (into a 36-bit register) with a
>> single instruction via a 36-bit pointer, but is not really
>> byte-addressable. I.e., the memory address lines are still
>> word granular.
>
> No one ever said that was addressable at the character level!

I was pointing out a related fact -- byte was a more tangible concept
when memory was organized by bytes.

> [ snip irrelevancies ]
>
>>> think systems with 36-bit words that stored characters in 9 bits may have
>>> called them bytes. “Characters” was the term of art earlier.
>
>> The only system I know of that fits that description is Multics,
>> and I don't remember how those 9-bit entities were called.
>
> They were called "characters", as were 6 bit entities.
>
>> Around MIT's ITS (PDP-10) environs, a 7-bit ASCII character was simply an
>> ASCII character. ASCII characters were generally packed 5 to a 36-bit word.
>
> That is also the format for ASCII text in the DEC operating systems for the
> PDP-6 (on which ITS originally ran) and PDP-10. Nothing special about MIT
> here.

No one ever said ITS was unique. I just have no idea how other
PDP-10 OS works.

> And the 7 bit entities treated as ASCII characters are called "bytes" when
> manipulating them with byte pointers in the relevant instructions.

No one ever said otherwise.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 03:45, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Then that's a function of your failing memory.
>
> Agreed. Thank you, and also Bob for the doc link.
>
> I really liked the PDP-10 instruction set. OTOH, it was my first!

I thought it was the acme of instruction sets. Everything was downhill from
there.

--
Pete

Vir Campestris submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:
> On 11/11/2022 03:45, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Then that's a function of your failing memory.
>
> Agreed. Thank you, and also Bob for the doc link.
>
> I really liked the PDP-10 instruction set. OTOH, it was my first!
>
> Andy

The coincidence of having 365 instructions in the set led my high
school group to make the joke that the opcodes were "November 11",
"November 12", ....

(there were a couple of DEC10's we could observe, one at a timesharing
service that gave idle time to Tektronix's terminal group)

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

Just this Friday, Vir Campestris explained that ...
> On 11/11/2022 03:45, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Then that's a function of your failing memory.
>
> Agreed. Thank you, and also Bob for the doc link.
>
> I really liked the PDP-10 instruction set. OTOH, it was my first!
>
> Andy

My first was the PDP-8. A straight 8 in a cabinet, with DECtape.
Later upgraded to 8K words (8192 x 12 bits). You had to bank-switch
the memory to use it all.

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013