On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> >> >>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> >>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
> >> >>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
> >> >>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
> >> >>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
> >> >>>> ...
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
> >> >>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
> >> >>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
> >> >>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
> >> >>
> >> >> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
> >> >> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
> >> >> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
> >> >> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
> >> >work for?
> >> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
> >> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
> >> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
> >> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
> >>
> >> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
> >> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
> >>
> >> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
> >> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
> >> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
> >> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
> >>
> >> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
> >> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
> >>
> >> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
> >> positions in other companies.
> >>
> >The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>
> Weird? In what way?
>
>
> > I used to
> >code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>
> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>
>
> >But in the end
> >all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
> >tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.

You need afc (if not already subscribed)

NB xpost!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:

> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
>> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> >> >>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> >>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
>> >> >>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
>> >> >>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
>> >> >>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
>> >> >>>> ...
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
>> >> >>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
>> >> >>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
>> >> >>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
>> >> >> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
>> >> >> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
>> >> >> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
>> >> >work for?
>> >> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
>> >> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
>> >> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
>> >> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
>> >>
>> >> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
>> >> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
>> >>
>> >> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
>> >> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
>> >> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
>> >> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
>> >>
>> >> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
>> >> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
>> >>
>> >> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
>> >> positions in other companies.
>> >>
>> >The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>>
>> Weird? In what way?
>>
>>
>> > I used to
>> >code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>>
>> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
>> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
>> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>>
>>
>> >But in the end
>> >all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
>> >tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.
>
> You need afc (if not already subscribed)
>
> NB xpost!

The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.

I knew about SPS but used Autocoder.

Many 1401s were used for a LOT more than card to tape.

It cost a lot to rent one of those things, but companies saved a fortune
using one.

--
Dan Espen

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
>>> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> >> >> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> >> >>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> >> >>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
>>> >> >>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
>>> >> >>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
>>> >> >>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
>>> >> >>>> ...
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
>>> >> >>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
>>> >> >>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
>>> >> >>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
>>> >> >> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
>>> >> >> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
>>> >> >> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
>>> >> >work for?
>>> >> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
>>> >> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
>>> >> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
>>> >> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
>>> >>
>>> >> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
>>> >> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
>>> >>
>>> >> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
>>> >> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
>>> >> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
>>> >> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
>>> >>
>>> >> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
>>> >> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
>>> >>
>>> >> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
>>> >> positions in other companies.
>>> >>
>>> >The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>>>
>>> Weird? In what way?
>>>
>>>
>>> > I used to
>>> >code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>>>
>>> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
>>> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
>>> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>>>
>>>
>>> >But in the end
>>> >all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
>>> >tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.
>>
>> You need afc (if not already subscribed)
>>
>> NB xpost!
>
> The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
> for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.
>
> I knew about SPS but used Autocoder.
>
> Many 1401s were used for a LOT more than card to tape.
>
> It cost a lot to rent one of those things, but companies saved a fortune
> using one.

Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.

--
Dan Espen

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
>>>> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> >> >> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> >> >>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
>>>> >> >>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
>>>> >> >>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
>>>> >> >>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
>>>> >> >>>> ...
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
>>>> >> >>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
>>>> >> >>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
>>>> >> >>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
>>>> >> >> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
>>>> >> >> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
>>>> >> >> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
>>>> >> >work for?
>>>> >> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
>>>> >> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
>>>> >> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
>>>> >> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
>>>> >> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
>>>> >> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
>>>> >> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
>>>> >> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
>>>> >> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
>>>> >> positions in other companies.
>>>> >>
>>>> >The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>>>>
>>>> Weird? In what way?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I used to
>>>> >code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>>>>
>>>> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
>>>> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
>>>> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >But in the end
>>>> >all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
>>>> >tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.
>>>
>>> You need afc (if not already subscribed)
>>>
>>> NB xpost!
>>
>> The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
>> for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.
>>
>> I knew about SPS but used Autocoder.
>>
>> Many 1401s were used for a LOT more than card to tape.
>>
>> It cost a lot to rent one of those things, but companies saved a fortune
>> using one.
>
>Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>

This one is still running at CHM:

http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg

On 2022-11-06 16:22, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
>>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
>>>>> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
>>>>>>>>>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
>>>>>>>>>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
>>>>>>>>>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
>>>>>>>>>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
>>>>>>>>> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
>>>>>>>>> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
>>>>>>>>> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
>>>>>>>> work for?
>>>>>>> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
>>>>>>> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
>>>>>>> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
>>>>>>> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
>>>>>>> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
>>>>>>> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
>>>>>>> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
>>>>>>> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
>>>>>>> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
>>>>>>> positions in other companies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Weird? In what way?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to
>>>>>> code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
>>>>> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
>>>>> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> But in the end
>>>>>> all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
>>>>>> tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.
>>>>
>>>> You need afc (if not already subscribed)
>>>>
>>>> NB xpost!
>>>
>>> The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
>>> for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.
>>>
>>> I knew about SPS but used Autocoder.
>>>
>>> Many 1401s were used for a LOT more than card to tape.
>>>
>>> It cost a lot to rent one of those things, but companies saved a fortune
>>> using one.
>>
>> Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>> main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>
>
> This one is still running at CHM:
> http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg

I see a couple of 1403s in that shot. They were also used on the 360/370
series machines. I hated working on them.

--
A man, a plan, a canal. Suez!

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> This one is still running at CHM:
>
>
> http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg

That's 2 systems. Very cool.

My school had a simple 1401. My first job they had a maxed out 1401 and
a 1460. Jobs would run on either one. Second job, they had a 1440 and
I found the wonderful world of hard disks.

--
Dan Espen

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:10:06 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
>>> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> >> >> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> >> >>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> >> >>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
>>> >> >>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
>>> >> >>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
>>> >> >>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
>>> >> >>>> ...
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
>>> >> >>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
>>> >> >>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
>>> >> >>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
>>> >> >> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
>>> >> >> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
>>> >> >> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
>>> >> >work for?
>>> >> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
>>> >> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
>>> >> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
>>> >> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
>>> >>
>>> >> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
>>> >> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
>>> >>
>>> >> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
>>> >> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
>>> >> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
>>> >> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
>>> >>
>>> >> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
>>> >> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
>>> >>
>>> >> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
>>> >> positions in other companies.
>>> >>
>>> >The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>>>
>>> Weird? In what way?
>>>
>>>
>>> > I used to
>>> >code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>>>
>>> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
>>> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
>>> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>>>
>>>
>>> >But in the end
>>> >all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
>>> >tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.
>>
>> You need afc (if not already subscribed)
>>
>> NB xpost!
>
>The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
>for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.

Yes, of course. I meant 1403. I have no idea why I remembered wrong
and wrote 1407. I'd like to claim it was a typo, but it wasn't. Thanks
for the correction.
I knew what the 1407 was, although I never worked anywhere that had
one. I think they were very uncommon.

>I knew about SPS but used Autocoder.
>
>Many 1401s were used for a LOT more than card to tape.
>
>It cost a lot to rent one of those things, but companies saved a fortune
>using one.

Yes.

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
>>>> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> >> >> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> >> >>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
>>>> >> >>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
>>>> >> >>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
>>>> >> >>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
>>>> >> >>>> ...
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
>>>> >> >>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
>>>> >> >>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
>>>> >> >>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
>>>> >> >> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
>>>> >> >> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
>>>> >> >> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
>>>> >> >work for?
>>>> >> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
>>>> >> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
>>>> >> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
>>>> >> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
>>>> >> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
>>>> >> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
>>>> >> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
>>>> >> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
>>>> >> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
>>>> >> positions in other companies.
>>>> >>
>>>> >The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>>>>
>>>> Weird? In what way?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I used to
>>>> >code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>>>>
>>>> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
>>>> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
>>>> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >But in the end
>>>> >all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
>>>> >tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.
>>>
>>> You need afc (if not already subscribed)
>>>
>>> NB xpost!
>>
>> The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
>> for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.
>>
>> I knew about SPS but used Autocoder.
>>
>> Many 1401s were used for a LOT more than card to tape.
>>
>> It cost a lot to rent one of those things, but companies saved a fortune
>> using one.
>
>Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.

I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
similar size.

We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:22:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 11:12:52 -0700
>>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke
>>>>> <dkleinecke@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:08:06 AM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:00:42 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >On 03/11/2022 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> >> >> On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:26:15 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>> On 02/11/2022 18:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>> >> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:06 AM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>>>> >> >>>>> In article <cd80f306-7e2c-4bb5...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> >> >>>>> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >>>>>> do some Americans write their 1's in this way ?
>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://i.redd.it/phpsw48kjfx91.jpg
>>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>>> >> >>>>>> The numerals look French to me.
>>>>> >> >>>>> I think many people who have lived in Europe will have picked up the
>>>>> >> >>>>> habit of crossing sevens to keep them from being interpreted as ones
>>>>> >> >>>>> -- and similarly z's and twos.
>>>>> >> >>>> ...
>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >>>> I've never lived in Europe, but I always cross my z's (a habit that was
>>>>> >> >>>> necessary for me in math and physics) but not my 7's.
>>>>> >> >>>>
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >>> When I took my first programming course at university, in the days of
>>>>> >> >>> punch-cards and hand-written code, I was told to cross my zeros (with a
>>>>> >> >>> diagonal slash, Ø) in order to distinguish them from capital letter 'O's.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> There were no computer courses in college when I was a student (I
>>>>> >> >> graduated in 1959) but I started programming professionally in 1962,
>>>>> >> >> and that's what we did in those days, unless it was the letter that we
>>>>> >> >> slashed; I can't remember for sure which it was.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >When you say "when I started programming professionally", who did you
>>>>> >> >work for?
>>>>> >> Howard Clothes, which no longer exists. We had an IBM 1401 computer,
>>>>> >> which was about the size of a large refrigerator, had no disk space
>>>>> >> and no screen, and was much slower, much less powerful, and had much
>>>>> >> less memory than the smart phone I now have in my pocket.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Add to its size its 1402 card reader/punch, its 1407 printer, and its
>>>>> >> four tape drives and it was bigger than the kitchen I now have.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Its monthly rental cost was also much more than the purchase cost of
>>>>> >> my smart phone, powerful desktop computer with 5TB of disk space, 34"
>>>>> >> widescreen monitor, keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, speakers,
>>>>> >> router, modem, and UPS all added together.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I programmed in SPS and later in Autocoder, both roughly 1401
>>>>> >> equivalents of the later 360/370 Assembly Language.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I worked there for four years before moving on to more responsible IT
>>>>> >> positions in other companies.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >The IBM 1401 I remember was a wonderfully weird machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Weird? In what way?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > I used to
>>>>> >code ours in the 1401 machine code. It was lots of fun.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only time I used machine code was for patching object code to fix
>>>>> errors or make small requested changes. It was very difficult to get
>>>>> enough computer time to recompile a program.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >But in the end
>>>>> >all the 1401 was used for was reading punched cards onto tapes and
>>>>> >tapes onto the printer. A line printer of course.
>>>>
>>>> You need afc (if not already subscribed)
>>>>
>>>> NB xpost!
>>>
>>> The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
>>> for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.
>>>
>>> I knew about SPS but used Autocoder.
>>>
>>> Many 1401s were used for a LOT more than card to tape.
>>>
>>> It cost a lot to rent one of those things, but companies saved a fortune
>>> using one.
>>
>>Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>
>
>This one is still running at CHM:

What is CHM?

>http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg

I didn't know any 1401s still existed. That one has two 1403
printers-very unusual--and six tape drives--a lot.

For those here who don't recognize the devices, the printers are the
two on the left, the device on the right is a 1402 card-reader pinch.
the six devices against the wall in the back are tape drives. The 1401
is the device in the middle--wider than a refrigerator, but not as
tall as a big refrigerator today.

All those devices are connected to the 1401 by cables, but you can't
see them. They are sitting on a raised floor and the cables are under
that floor.

On 2022-11-08, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:22:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
>> This one is still running at CHM:
>
> What is CHM?

Computer History Museum

>> http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg

Nice photo.

> I didn't know any 1401s still existed. That one has two 1403
> printers-very unusual--and six tape drives--a lot.

Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:

> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:10:06 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>The IBM 1407 was a console, it had a printer but you wouldn't use it
>>for volume printing. For that you'd use the 1403.
>
> Yes, of course. I meant 1403. I have no idea why I remembered wrong
> and wrote 1407. I'd like to claim it was a typo, but it wasn't. Thanks
> for the correction.
>
> I knew what the 1407 was, although I never worked anywhere that had
> one. I think they were very uncommon.

I never saw one on a 1401. The first company I worked at had a 1460
with a console.

--
Dan Espen

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:

> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>
> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
> similar size.
>
> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.

Take another look at the picture.

1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.

It's been a REALLY long time, but all the models I remember had the same
size cabinet. I worked on the 1.4K model. If it had a smaller cabinet
I don't remember it.

--
Dan Espen

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2022-11-08, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:22:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This one is still running at CHM:
>>
>> What is CHM?
>
> Computer History Museum
>
>>> http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg
>
> Nice photo.
>
>> I didn't know any 1401s still existed. That one has two 1403
>> printers-very unusual--and six tape drives--a lot.
>
> Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
> That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
> two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
> drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
> the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)

Agree, that picture shows 2 systems.

A single 1401 wouldn't have any way to use 2 printers.

--
Dan Espen

On 2022-11-08 16:42, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-11-08, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:22:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This one is still running at CHM:
>>
>> What is CHM?
>
> Computer History Museum
>
>>> http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg
>
> Nice photo.
>
>> I didn't know any 1401s still existed. That one has two 1403
>> printers-very unusual--and six tape drives--a lot.
>
> Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
> That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
> two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
> drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
> the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)

Charlie Gibbs of Panorama fame?

--
I got tired of being accused of having no sense of direction,
so I packed up my things and right.

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>> main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>
>> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
>> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
>> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
>> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
>> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
>> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
>> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
>> similar size.
>>
>> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
>> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.
>
> Take another look at the picture.
>
> 1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.

I think that the “K” there is decimal, i.e. 4,000 characters (4KC?) not
4,096 - or is that digits?

Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
character, so six bits could be a byte.

>
> It's been a REALLY long time, but all the models I remember had the same
> size cabinet. I worked on the 1.4K model. If it had a smaller cabinet
> I don't remember it.
>

--
Pete

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>>> main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>>
>>> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
>>> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
>>> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
>>> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
>>> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
>>> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
>>> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
>>> similar size.
>>>
>>> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
>>> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.
>>
>> Take another look at the picture.
>>
>> 1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.
>
> I think that the “K” there is decimal, i.e. 4,000 characters (4KC?) not
> 4,096 - or is that digits?

Yes, 4,000 characters.

> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
> character, so six bits could be a byte.

Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.

--
Dan Espen

On 11/9/2022 9:06 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>>>> main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>>>
>>>> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
>>>> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
>>>> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
>>>> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
>>>> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
>>>> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
>>>> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
>>>> similar size.
>>>>
>>>> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
>>>> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.
>>>
>>> Take another look at the picture.
>>>
>>> 1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.
>>
>> I think that the “K” there is decimal, i.e. 4,000 characters (4KC?) not
>> 4,096 - or is that digits?
>
> Yes, 4,000 characters.
>
>> Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits, although nowadays
>> it’s conventionally 8. Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
>> character, so six bits could be a byte.
>
> Until S/360 was announced I never heard the term byte.

And not until the PDP-11 did it cross the EBCDIC-Ascii or the
mainframe-mini boundary.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2022-11-08 16:42, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
>> That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
>> two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
>> drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
>> the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)
>
> Charlie Gibbs of Panorama fame?

Are you _that_ Larry?

I'm still living in the same place, but I'm running Linux now.
Although I still have four Amigas in storage...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>Are you _that_ Larry?
>I'm still living in the same place, but I'm running Linux now.
>Although I still have four Amigas in storage...

There's a game by Garry Flynn for the Pet 2001 called "Titrate".
When you're very good, it will PRINT "Is that you, Garry?".

On 2022-11-09 12:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-11-08 16:42, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
>>> That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
>>> two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
>>> drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
>>> the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)
>>
>> Charlie Gibbs of Panorama fame?
>
> Are you _that_ Larry?

Indeed. That be me.

> I'm still living in the same place, but I'm running Linux now.
> Although I still have four Amigas in storage...

Biggest mistake I ever made was to throw all my Amigas out.

I am also using Linux now.
I spent WAY too long running Windows for work, and finally got totally
fed up with it.

--
The best way to accelerate a Windows machine is at 32 ft/sec/sec.

On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2022-11-09 12:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2022-11-09, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-11-08 16:42, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
>>>> That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
>>>> two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
>>>> drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
>>>> the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)
>>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs of Panorama fame?
>>
>> Are you _that_ Larry?
>
> Indeed. That be me.
>
>> I'm still living in the same place, but I'm running Linux now.
>> Although I still have four Amigas in storage...
>
> Biggest mistake I ever made was to throw all my Amigas out.
>
> I am also using Linux now.
> I spent WAY too long running Windows for work, and finally got totally
> fed up with it.
>

Present hate. Foss IRC was easy, and one could type while reading
earlier texts. Zoom reminds me of Goebbels screaming at a captive
audience.

--
greymausg@mail.com

Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?

On Tue, 08 Nov 2022 22:42:30 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

>On 2022-11-08, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:22:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This one is still running at CHM:
>>
>> What is CHM?
>
>Computer History Museum

Thanks. I had never heard of it before.

>
>>> http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg
>
>Nice photo.

Yes.

>> I didn't know any 1401s still existed. That one has two 1403
>> printers-very unusual--and six tape drives--a lot.
>
>Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
>That looks like another processor cabinet.

Yes, that you mention it, I'm almost sure you're right. And I think
that's another 1402 in front of it.

>I suspect they have
>two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
>drives.

Yes.

>(Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
>the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)

Yes.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2022 22:49:03 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2022-11-08, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:22:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This one is still running at CHM:
>>>
>>> What is CHM?
>>
>> Computer History Museum
>>
>>>> http://ibm-1401.info/FullSizeRender-.jpg
>>
>> Nice photo.
>>
>>> I didn't know any 1401s still existed. That one has two 1403
>>> printers-very unusual--and six tape drives--a lot.
>>
>> Take a closer look in the background behind the leftmost 1403.
>> That looks like another processor cabinet. I suspect they have
>> two complete systems, each with a 1402, 1403, and three tape
>> drives. (Actually, the rightmost system has four tape drives -
>> the fourth is hiding behind someone but is just visible.)
>
>Agree, that picture shows 2 systems.
>
>A single 1401 wouldn't have any way to use 2 printers.

I didn't give it any thought when I posted my previous message, but
now that you mention it, I'm sure you're right.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2022 22:44:17 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>>main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>
>> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
>> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
>> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
>> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
>> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
>> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
>> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
>> similar size.
>>
>> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
>> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.
>
>Take another look at the picture.
>
>1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.

Right. Its characters weren't called bytes, and they had only six bits
(and a seventh bit called a word mark), so I suppose K is more
accurate than KB, but I just used the common abbreviation KB that I
thought most people would understand.

Also a 4K machine had only 4000 characters, not 4096. That 96
character difference sounds like very little, but with so little
memory, an extra 96 would have my life much easier.

>It's been a REALLY long time, but all the models I remember had the same
>size cabinet. I worked on the 1.4K model. If it had a smaller cabinet
>I don't remember it.

It's been a REALLY long time for me too--1966. I never worked on a
1.4K 1401 and I don't think I even ever saw one, but I saw pictures of
one, and I'm almost sure I remember correctly. Look at the vertical
line in the center of the 1401 in the middle of the picture. A 1.4K
1401 cabinet was like just what's on the left side of that line.

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 06:04:46 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 17:18:40 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Oh yeah, a 1401 would be a LOT larger than a refrigerator. Just the
>>>> main cabinet would be at least 3 refrigerators.
>>>
>>> I was talking about the main cabinet. How big it was depended on how
>>> much memory it had. The 1.4 KB model was about the size of a
>>> refrigerator. The next memory size was 2KB, and I don't remember how
>>> big it was. The 4KB, 8KB, 12KB, and 16KB models were bigger, but not
>>> as big as three refrigerators. Yes, bigger than one, but I used the
>>> phrase "about the size of a large refrigerator" only as an
>>> approximation. It was the closest common thing I thought of with a
>>> similar size.
>>>
>>> We started with a 4KB model, which was upgraded to 8KB and then 12KB.
>>> We never went to 16KB, at least not before I left.
>>
>> Take another look at the picture.
>>
>> 1401s don't have bytes so it would be 4K, not 4KB.
>
>I think that the “K” there is decimal, i.e. 4,000 characters

Yes.

>(4KC?)

I suppose that could have been the abbreviation, but it was never
used. At least I've never seen or heard it.

> not 4,096 -

Right.

>or is that digits?

Most (all?) people said characters. Since each could contain a
letter, a number, or a special character, "digit" isn't really an
appropriate name.

>Actually, “byte” is really an unspecified number of bits,

Is it? I'm not sure. I just did a web search. I found some sites that
said what you said, and some that said it's always 8, which is what I
would have said.

>although nowadays
>it’s conventionally 8.

In my experience it's always been 8.

>Normally a byte is a glob large enough to hold a
>character, so six bits could be a byte.
>
>>
>> It's been a REALLY long time, but all the models I remember had the same
>> size cabinet. I worked on the 1.4K model. If it had a smaller cabinet
>> I don't remember it.
>>