Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

> On 2/21/2024 10:24 AM, Stefan Claas wrote:
> > Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> >
> >> If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can
> >> create a special plaintext that can give the message in the
> >> ciphertext, or whatever... Think about it... ;^)
> >
> > Can you craft an example, maybe with code (that compiles ...)?
> >
> > BTW. I would appreciate if you and other sci.crypt regulars
> > can sign my guestbook, on my Gemini-Capsule.
> >
> > gemini://tilde.club/~pollux/
> >
> > The guestbook is under Gästebuch.
> >
> > I am thinking about to set-up a cryptobook for us in Geminispace,
> > so that small encrypted messages can be left there ... ;-)
>
>
> http://fractallife247.com/test/hmac_cipher/ver_0_0_0_1?ct_hmac_cipher=9c113c0799ac3d9b52edbf3429aa673022d46643c5689d93f7cc16688e99961c249bb349a7c6a1c9603ddc793f613cb08a32d3c8284f6dd1a0e9fe3d2cbaf4b32d9717a7be19a1b4934a1e5c5b653ce9213e2acf0cd24a9af41789f9c0bba9fbe2f835a31fe35d90b95514f4d3ad1261e8fc3de2268fec68037bce2dc315ed0668cfd03c78335c171123bc164cca83816da4

Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a mixture
of gopher and classic html.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
a3ea8d7848721a39804504886a973579eba929486734109e6a345b7d187c405b
4e2d0b5662ed90305670277288fce36151675d3789e48c9e334141e2613ab103

Rich wrote:

> In sci.crypt Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> > Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> >
> >> If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can
> >> create a special plaintext that can give the message in the
> >> ciphertext, or whatever... Think about it... ;^)
> >
> > Can you craft an example, maybe with code (that compiles ...)?
>
> This is not go, but you should be able to follow along well enough.
> Note that ^ is Tcl's expr's byte wise XOR operator.:
>
> #!/usr/bin/tclsh
>
> # "OTP" - obtained by running this, then converted to 0x notation
> by hand: # dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1 count=2 | xxd
> # f1c3
>
> set otp 0xf1c3
>
> # show otp:
> puts [format "OTP: %04x" $otp]
>
> # message that Bob should see in the encrypted text
> # "feed"
>
> set bob 0xfeed
>
> # create Alice's message, which when 'encrypted' will result in
> Bob seeing # "feed" in the encrypted text
>
> set alice [expr {$otp ^ $bob}]
>
> # output Alice's message as a hex string:
> puts [format "Alice 'special' message: %04x" $alice]
>
> # encrypt Alice's special message using the OTP:
>
> set ciphertext [expr {$alice ^ $otp}]
>
> # output ciphertext as hex string
> puts [format "Ciphertext: %04x" $ciphertext]

Thanks for the code example.
> Running this results in:
>
> OTP: f1c3
> Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
> Ciphertext: feed

He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself, but the
ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool if there
would be a real world usage scenario for this.

Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
0c8a7d5aead639537cab202da5fab93756cc33bd29705ca6edc240c9172d1a0e
e8dfca6350ec5e2963d906042c7667824673753acba4b7495a909b54bc1b6809

Stefan Claas wrote:

> Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a mixture
> of gopher and classic html.

https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
0d1bafdd4013b840a05c4a6b7218a01ce97f7e6faa213f917ae861a12af38d8c
1f1d33e84cc5547aa35c164ac810872324c8ebe738d8df9f00d301a332ae0e07

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> Thanks for the code example.
>
>> Running this results in:
>>
>> OTP: f1c3
>> Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
>> Ciphertext: feed
>
> He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,

Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three pieces
means one of the other pieces is going to look like gibberish.

> but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool
> if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.

Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
(assuming ASCII bytes):

*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456

And you would like to "decrypt" it to read:

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy

Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone else
who isn't very cryptographicly aware?

So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of the
purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted text.
I.e., you do:

otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ... length(cipher)

Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that you
just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the pad" (not
mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message about the fox
pops out.

> Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
> in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
> says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'

Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided Alice
and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much harder to
fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.

On 2/23/2024 10:59 AM, Stefan Claas wrote:
> Stefan Claas wrote:
>
>> Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a mixture
>> of gopher and classic html.
>
> https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini

http://fractallife247.com/test/hmac_cipher/ver_0_0_0_1?ct_hmac_cipher=19d672f834593b161ffb1338f77bd51aa5328ab1854b531f33d415ac79ddb154a85beacb0a155cb64b47e551cadf2ad22ad689920bcdc670d1283d337413b691cd1294db0a7ae44bf6e5a9aa3adc138d4a7e2807c48c6612b1674b3caba2257776bfad003601cc973d6d95e2bab113cd7f70be4e8309c8a34a8c2aab53d511576093be2f566d67552c85812070ded60528b863f414a1e15a768302fe0bfabd28ed46d6593f32f33a0c1c4168dea84e722251a6f231979e93c1ba7c30

A little busy right now.

Rich wrote:

> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> > Thanks for the code example.
> >
> >> Running this results in:
> >>
> >> OTP: f1c3
> >> Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
> >> Ciphertext: feed
> >
> > He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
>
> Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three pieces
> means one of the other pieces is going to look like gibberish.
>
> > but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool
> > if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
>
> Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
> (assuming ASCII bytes):
>
> *1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
>
> And you would like to "decrypt" it to read:
>
> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>
> Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
> else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?

Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted message,
kind of steganography.
> So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of the
> purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted text.
> I.e., you do:
>
> otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
> length(cipher)
>
> Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that you
> just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the pad" (not
> mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message about the
> fox pops out.
>
> > Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
> > in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
> > says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
>
> Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
> learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
> algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
> Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much harder
> to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.

Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
6a0eaa08046bba8dc871aa0b8efdc88737ae9e8687d310cb79e5f0329ae52b40
acd37e2d21cbfb7ca41095488a261f0c68031a0dea86e2c698a3f70c51581701

For your reference, records indicate that
Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:

> He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself, but the
> ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool if there
> would be a real world usage scenario for this.

There are probably plenty. One obvious use is simply transforming one OTP
to another OTP, for whatever reason it might make sense to “refresh” or
“resync" the parties holding the OTP.

As an example, you can create a kind of dead man’s switch if you not only
exchange an OTP with someone, but also agree to XOR it with some commonly
available innocuous “message”, like a news story/video/podcast, or a nightly
build of some open source software, or pretty much any shared-but-non-secret
info. Access to the OTP alone does not then compromise all the secrets.

Another use might be to just flat out *lie* about the data format your
encrypted message is:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_number_(programming)#In_files>

I mean, yeah, you can certainly try hide the message in another *valid*
file format, but you can spice things up for the attacker by forcing them
to consider if the JPEG they have intercepted is corrupted, or was ever
even a JPEG at all! :-)

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

Doc O'Leary , wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that
> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
>
> > He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself, but the
> > ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool if there
> > would be a real world usage scenario for this.
>
> There are probably plenty. One obvious use is simply transforming
> one OTP to another OTP, for whatever reason it might make sense to
> “refresh” or “resync" the parties holding the OTP.
>
> As an example, you can create a kind of dead man’s switch if you not
> only exchange an OTP with someone, but also agree to XOR it with some
> commonly available innocuous “message”, like a news
> story/video/podcast, or a nightly build of some open source software,
> or pretty much any shared-but-non-secret info. Access to the OTP
> alone does not then compromise all the secrets.
>
> Another use might be to just flat out *lie* about the data format
> your encrypted message is:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_number_(programming)#In_files>
>
> I mean, yeah, you can certainly try hide the message in another
> *valid* file format, but you can spice things up for the attacker by
> forcing them to consider if the JPEG they have intercepted is
> corrupted, or was ever even a JPEG at all! :-)

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated! :-)

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
5d8b1bcd6084543a05426e256fbaa12e44e570cd152fd6c8f61c26bb06519ed9
ea0107239bf7465654726af7f3158651d3bfeb1056d0ca709e48af8a4d279d0d

Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

> On 2/23/2024 10:59 AM, Stefan Claas wrote:
> > Stefan Claas wrote:
> >
> >> Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a
> >> mixture of gopher and classic html.
> >
> > https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini
>
> http://fractallife247.com/test/hmac_cipher/ver_0_0_0_1?ct_hmac_cipher=19d672f834593b161ffb1338f77bd51aa5328ab1854b531f33d415ac79ddb154a85beacb0a155cb64b47e551cadf2ad22ad689920bcdc670d1283d337413b691cd1294db0a7ae44bf6e5a9aa3adc138d4a7e2807c48c6612b1674b3caba2257776bfad003601cc973d6d95e2bab113cd7f70be4e8309c8a34a8c2aab53d511576093be2f566d67552c85812070ded60528b863f414a1e15a768302fe0bfabd28ed46d6593f32f33a0c1c4168dea84e722251a6f231979e93c1ba7c30
>
> A little busy right now.
>

No Problem! Don't forget to sign my guestbook (Gästebuch),
when exploring Geminispace. ;-)

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
2f610593c193e717c188b9cc56c8d99a724227c8f67107f41c1714bb54e9e7fc
60c9bb65e4c1ade36179980d8a4d560ea18e358af033d56f54d0fbcedb658f06

On 2/23/2024 1:16 PM, Stefan Claas wrote:
> Rich wrote:
>
>> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
>>> Thanks for the code example.
>>>
>>>> Running this results in:
>>>>
>>>> OTP: f1c3
>>>> Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
>>>> Ciphertext: feed
>>>
>>> He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
>>
>> Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three pieces
>> means one of the other pieces is going to look like gibberish.
>>
>>> but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool
>>> if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
>>
>> Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
>> (assuming ASCII bytes):
>>
>> *1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
>>
>> And you would like to "decrypt" it to read:
>>
>> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>>
>> Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
>> else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?
>
> Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted message,
> kind of steganography.
>
>> So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of the
>> purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted text.
>> I.e., you do:
>>
>> otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
>> length(cipher)
>>
>> Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that you
>> just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the pad" (not
>> mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message about the
>> fox pops out.
>>
>>> Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
>>> in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
>>> says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
>>
>> Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
>> learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
>> algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
>> Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much harder
>> to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
>
> Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
> probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.

Bob: "The dog was walking itself when the sun was down yesterday." in a
public forum.

Alice reads that and just "knows" to meet Bob in a _specific_ park where
there are dogs off their leashes when the sun is up in 42 days from now...

Something like that? Never mind that Alice is under surveillance...

;^)

Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

> On 2/23/2024 1:16 PM, Stefan Claas wrote:
> > Rich wrote:
> >
> >> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> >>> Thanks for the code example.
> >>>
> >>>> Running this results in:
> >>>>
> >>>> OTP: f1c3
> >>>> Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
> >>>> Ciphertext: feed
> >>>
> >>> He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
> >>
> >> Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three
> >> pieces means one of the other pieces is going to look like
> >> gibberish.
> >>
> >>> but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be
> >>> cool if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
> >>
> >> Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
> >> (assuming ASCII bytes):
> >>
> >> *1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
> >>
> >> And you would like to "decrypt" it to read:
> >>
> >> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
> >>
> >> Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
> >> else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?
> >
> > Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted
> > message, kind of steganography.
> >
> >> So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of
> >> the purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted
> >> text. I.e., you do:
> >>
> >> otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
> >> length(cipher)
> >>
> >> Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that
> >> you just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the
> >> pad" (not mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message
> >> about the fox pops out.
> >>
> >>> Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to
> >>> Bob, in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice
> >>> if it says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
> >>
> >> Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
> >> learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
> >> algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
> >> Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much
> >> harder to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
> >
> > Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
> > probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.
>
> Bob: "The dog was walking itself when the sun was down yesterday." in
> a public forum.
>
> Alice reads that and just "knows" to meet Bob in a _specific_ park
> where there are dogs off their leashes when the sun is up in 42 days
> from now...
>
> Something like that? Never mind that Alice is under surveillance...

Yes, that would be nice, if a software implementation for that exists.

One the other side, you can hide OTP messages in text, like this:

Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.

Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can decrypt,
with the exchanged pads, the story.

You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many words
per sentence must be in the story. I did this once successfully. :-)

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
3333210c0ee5a760d6f03d01d5717f1d273f6e479f6db89a69b12b9b8d8a6d7b
3c082fb637cef297ee3b2bcb664f24ce4dded79dc2f9c5419a31ce41c297130d

On 25/02/2024 16:44, Stefan Claas wrote:
> Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>
>> On 2/23/2024 1:16 PM, Stefan Claas wrote:
>>> Rich wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for the code example.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Running this results in:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OTP: f1c3
>>>>>> Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
>>>>>> Ciphertext: feed
>>>>>
>>>>> He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three
>>>> pieces means one of the other pieces is going to look like
>>>> gibberish.
>>>>
>>>>> but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be
>>>>> cool if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
>>>>
>>>> Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
>>>> (assuming ASCII bytes):
>>>>
>>>> *1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
>>>>
>>>> And you would like to "decrypt" it to read:
>>>>
>>>> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
>>>>
>>>> Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
>>>> else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?
>>>
>>> Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted
>>> message, kind of steganography.
>>>
>>>> So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of
>>>> the purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted
>>>> text. I.e., you do:
>>>>
>>>> otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
>>>> length(cipher)
>>>>
>>>> Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that
>>>> you just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the
>>>> pad" (not mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message
>>>> about the fox pops out.
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to
>>>>> Bob, in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice
>>>>> if it says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
>>>>
>>>> Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
>>>> learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
>>>> algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
>>>> Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much
>>>> harder to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
>>>
>>> Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
>>> probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.
>>
>> Bob: "The dog was walking itself when the sun was down yesterday." in
>> a public forum.
>>
>> Alice reads that and just "knows" to meet Bob in a _specific_ park
>> where there are dogs off their leashes when the sun is up in 42 days
>> from now...
>>
>> Something like that? Never mind that Alice is under surveillance...
>
> Yes, that would be nice, if a software implementation for that exists.
>
> One the other side, you can hide OTP messages in text, like this:
>
> Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
> create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
> of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
>
> Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
> each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can decrypt,
> with the exchanged pads, the story.
>
> You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many words
> per sentence must be in the story. I did this once successfully. :-)
>

That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.

Richard Harnden wrote:

> > Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
> > create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
> > of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
> >
> > Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
> > each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
> > decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
> >
> > You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
> > words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
> > successfully. :-)
> >
>
> That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.

Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
the help of AI your story.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
1c4087b8b9c1a9574db57d25a7af79286ee494146cce2de510a325bc1fd4ce17
8d8d8d68442dc1ca5e6bb4c2861981293318092685fd6ff39b9a47214e22410d

Stefan Claas wrote:

> Richard Harnden wrote:
>
> > > Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
> > > done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
> > > word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
> > >
> > > Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
> > > in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
> > > decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
> > >
> > > You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
> > > words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
> > > successfully. :-)
> > >
> >
> > That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
>
> Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
> usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
> the help of AI your story.

<https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
dc19ac1817f25ebe02c54514b64d911a701c338e4b3bd618e47d37756ca73a31
3c6c761eb5b79ed2b00b11af5ab46ed4773cba010c572c069d5ff838d2578d0c

On 25/02/2024 17:59, Stefan Claas wrote:
> Stefan Claas wrote:
>
>> Richard Harnden wrote:
>>
>>>> Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
>>>> done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
>>>> word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
>>>>
>>>> Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
>>>> in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
>>>> decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
>>>>
>>>> You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
>>>> words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
>>>> successfully. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
>>
>> Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
>> usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
>> the help of AI your story.
>
> <https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
>

I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.

Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult to
securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.

Aren't you making the problem worse?

Richard Harnden wrote:

> On 25/02/2024 17:59, Stefan Claas wrote:
> > Stefan Claas wrote:
> >
> >> Richard Harnden wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
> >>>> done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
> >>>> word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP
> >>>> message.
> >>>>
> >>>> Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
> >>>> in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
> >>>> decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
> >>>>
> >>>> You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
> >>>> words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
> >>>> successfully. :-)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
> >>
> >> Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
> >> usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create
> >> with the help of AI your story.
> >
> > <https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
> >
>
> I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.
>
> Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
> longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult
> to securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.
>
> Aren't you making the problem worse?

Ok, I must admit that the OP's thread was about 'Patterns', but I
replied to Chris, showing another way.

I somehow doubt that we can create proper (i.e. long) cipher text
consisting of a pattern, shown by the OP, in form of software and
that it can be reused with other plain code messages. I can be wrong
of course and would like to see such a solution.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
31412e4b9c6ea60f0a1e7d437766b3bfe4e5a89f3ccbcfb558dcdb212bf328cd
a1d4bc51bdb8914c9c769b1f3fc8049158852e6515ed1c8fd7398672e1ea290e

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> Richard Harnden wrote:
>
>> > Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
>> > create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
>> > of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
>> >
>> > Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
>> > each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
>> > decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
>> >
>> > You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
>> > words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
>> > successfully. :-)
>> >
>>
>> That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
>
> Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
> usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
> the help of AI your story.

Your plan is to hide the encrypted message using steganography.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography

Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> Richard Harnden wrote:
>
>> On 25/02/2024 17:59, Stefan Claas wrote:
>> > Stefan Claas wrote:
>> >
>> >> Richard Harnden wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
>> >>>> done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
>> >>>> word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP
>> >>>> message.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
>> >>>> in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
>> >>>> decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
>> >>>> words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
>> >>>> successfully. :-)
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
>> >>
>> >> Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
>> >> usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create
>> >> with the help of AI your story.
>> >
>> > <https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
>> >
>>
>> I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.
>>
>> Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
>> longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult
>> to securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.
>>
>> Aren't you making the problem worse?
>
> Ok, I must admit that the OP's thread was about 'Patterns', but I

Of which I still highly suspect that the doctor was simply trolling.

> replied to Chris, showing another way.
>
> I somehow doubt that we can create proper (i.e. long) cipher text
> consisting of a pattern, shown by the OP, in form of software and
> that it can be reused with other plain code messages. I can be wrong
> of course and would like to see such a solution.

Presuming "the doctor" was not actually trolling (99% probability it
was a troll) then the doctors question was "what algorithm was used to
encrypt". Of course the simplest answer is: "unknown, insufficient
information provided to answer that question".

But, presuming one, for some reason, did want a message to 'ecrypt' to
the doctor's original pattern, then one has three choices to obtain
such:

1) brute force try keys and/or inputs to a selected algorithm until
finding a key/input which results in that specific output. This choice
is likely to take a nearly infinite amount of time.

2) analyze the mathematics of a selected algorithm sufficient to be
able to select a given key and input which would result in the doctor's
output. This would also possibly take significant time, but if one
succeeded here, one would also likely have a paper worthy of
publication and also likely have found a significant break of the
selected algorithm.

3) use the OTP algorithm, and fashion one of either a special OTP that
converts a given message of exactly the output length into that output
or fashion a special message that for a given OTP creates that output.

This is the route that is the quickest, because fashioning either the
"special OTP" or the "special message" is simply bitwise xor of the
doctors output with a selected message (to create a special OTP) or
with a given OTP (to create a special message).

4) create a custom "algorithm" that "encrypts" the message to that
output. This option is little different from #3 beyond it uses "custom
algorithm X" instead of the OTP algorithm.

Therefore, given the lack of information in the doctors initial post, a
reasonable "possible encryption algorithm" to 'create' that output
would be an OTP with specially crafted message or pad.

Rich wrote:

> [...]

> Therefore, given the lack of information in the doctors initial post,
> a reasonable "possible encryption algorithm" to 'create' that output
> would be an OTP with specially crafted message or pad.

Yes, since the 'Doctor gave little info, I leave it as it is and
concentrate on other things, but because the Subject: is Patterns,
I have one for the Doctor, he can try to decode. :-)

🔵🔴🔵🔵🔵🔲🔴🔵🔵🔵🔴🔲🔴🔵🔴🔴🔴🔲🔴🔵🔴🔴🔵🔲🔵🔵🔴🔴🔵🔲🔴🔴🔴🔵🔴
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🔴🔵🔵🔵🔴🔲🔴🔵🔵🔴🔵🔲🔴🔴🔴🔵🔵🔲

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
50fd9c70676ccf73bbec2d451c4b86c4478d18d5f091b6e4b7c348326184b35d
c6b3b30ee77317082481081eda6b4bc62581bc02f465268c6e059fcba05dce09

On 2/25/2024 10:23 AM, Stefan Claas wrote:
> Richard Harnden wrote:
>
>> On 25/02/2024 17:59, Stefan Claas wrote:
>>> Stefan Claas wrote:
>>>
>>>> Richard Harnden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
>>>>>> done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
>>>>>> word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP
>>>>>> message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
>>>>>> in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
>>>>>> decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
>>>>>> words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
>>>>>> successfully. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
>>>>
>>>> Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
>>>> usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create
>>>> with the help of AI your story.
>>>
>>> <https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.
>>
>> Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
>> longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult
>> to securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.
>>
>> Aren't you making the problem worse?
>
> Ok, I must admit that the OP's thread was about 'Patterns', but I
> replied to Chris, showing another way.

If Bob Writes, Had a good time with my cousins today. Alice can
"decrypt" that to mean, high noon, we meet on that rock we used to go to
as teenagers. This requires a preexisting deep connection between Alice
and Bob.

>
> I somehow doubt that we can create proper (i.e. long) cipher text
> consisting of a pattern, shown by the OP, in form of software and
> that it can be reused with other plain code messages. I can be wrong
> of course and would like to see such a solution.
>
> Regards
> Stefan

Stefan Claas wrote:

> Rich wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> > Therefore, given the lack of information in the doctors initial
> > post, a reasonable "possible encryption algorithm" to 'create' that
> > output would be an OTP with specially crafted message or pad.
>
> Yes, since the 'Doctor gave little info, I leave it as it is and
> concentrate on other things, but because the Subject: is Patterns,
> I have one for the Doctor, he can try to decode. :-)
>
> 🔵🔴🔵🔵🔵🔲🔴🔵🔵🔵🔴🔲🔴🔵🔴🔴🔴🔲🔴🔵🔴🔴🔵🔲🔵🔵🔴🔴🔵🔲🔴🔴🔴🔵🔴

Updated the encoder, so that the white square is a white circle. :-)

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🔵🔵🔴🔵🔴⚪🔵🔵🔴🔵🔵⚪

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
358b6316425f212f655fc6e0b4a26ed4a3d91c656eb394821a80d27bcbc2d618
0a3b2dda1d1e2104f128b494a49819f9525d171c82e2d7dae77fd92053c22a06