Hi,

the ADA SCDI is about to publish an ADA/ANSI standard 1107 which defines how to use DICOM to encode photograph views commonly used in orthodontics.

In the proposed standard, we currently make use of AcquisitionContextSequence to add an ImageView and an ImageViewModifier, to describe projections, such as

260499007 SCT Occlusal projection (qualifier value)
399198007 SCT Right lateral projection (qualifier value)
....

However, this is essentially used like View Code Sequence (0054,0220), already present in other SOP Classes/Modalities.

As DICOM experts, would you recommend that in our correction package (CP-1570) View Code Sequence (0054,0220) be added to the VL Image Module (kind of like, for example, SC has in it's SC Image Module), or would you recommend going down the less elegant and more complex-to-implement AcquisitionContextSequence route we currently have?

You can find a list of demo DICOM files of how we are currently doing it with the Acquisition Context here:

http://brillig.org/~afm/dicom_samples/

Hi,

maybe Anatomic Region Sequence (0008,2218), Anatomic Region Modifier Sequence (0008,2220), Primary Anatomic Structure Sequence (0008,2228) and Primary Anatomic Structure Modifier Sequence (0008,2230) would do the job?

Regards,
Patrick

On Thursday, 30 March 2023 at 03:29:43 UTC-4, Patrick A. Nast wrote:
> Hi,
>
> maybe Anatomic Region Sequence (0008,2218), Anatomic Region Modifier Sequence (0008,2220), Primary Anatomic Structure Sequence (0008,2228) and Primary Anatomic Structure Modifier Sequence (0008,2230) would do the job?
>
> Regards,
> Patrick

I have a feeling this would not be the right place, since what i am referring to is not anatomy. It's Image view/projection. The anatomic region and structure tags are already been used for specifying anatomy. See example DCM files linked in original post.

Hi Toni

Interesting choice, but if it were me I would probably :

(a) add View Code Sequence (0054,0220) and View Modifier Code Sequence (0054,0222) to the VL Photographic Image as a Standard Extended SOP Class, to mirror the way it is encoded in the DX Positioning Module to mimic the way it is already done in the Digital Intra-Oral X-Ray Image

(b) submit a CP to add these to the standard for VL Photographic Image

rather than using Acquisition Context Sequence, which most consumers (which might otherwise recognize the existing view attributes) won't know to go looking inside, and which is intended for things that don't already have specific data elements defined for them already..

Wrt. CP 1570, that has been festering for some time, and WG 6 has not heard from WG 22 about it for ages, so it doesn't sound like a very good idea to be publishing an ADA/ANSI standard if it is covering the same material as CP 1570 without further input from WG 6.

I recall that CP 1744 added the anatomy information that WG 22 was looking for in relation to this, but I don't think View and View Modifier were included in the previous discussions.

David

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 7:35:54 PM UTC-4, Toni Magni wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the ADA SCDI is about to publish an ADA/ANSI standard 1107 which defines how to use DICOM to encode photograph views commonly used in orthodontics.
>
> In the proposed standard, we currently make use of AcquisitionContextSequence to add an ImageView and an ImageViewModifier, to describe projections, such as
>
> 260499007 SCT Occlusal projection (qualifier value)
> 399198007 SCT Right lateral projection (qualifier value)
> ...
>
> However, this is essentially used like View Code Sequence (0054,0220), already present in other SOP Classes/Modalities.
>
> As DICOM experts, would you recommend that in our correction package (CP-1570) View Code Sequence (0054,0220) be added to the VL Image Module (kind of like, for example, SC has in it's SC Image Module), or would you recommend going down the less elegant and more complex-to-implement AcquisitionContextSequence route we currently have?
>
> You can find a list of demo DICOM files of how we are currently doing it with the Acquisition Context here:
>
> http://brillig.org/~afm/dicom_samples/

David,

Thanks for the reply. The reason WG6 hasn’t heard from 22 re CP1570, was because SCDI WG11.6 (us) was still wrapping up how to define the standard and getting new codes added to SNOMED that we could use.

CP1570 (or 1571?) was proposing the utilization of the Acquisition Context for Image View, but i agree with your suggestion.

ADA-1107 should be going out to WG22 for comments/review any moment. I’ll make sure it makes use of ImageView as discussed below before it goes out and I’ll alert Andrew Casertano (author of 1570/1571) to update 1570 and/or 1571 to reflect the change.

If you had a chance to look at the sample dcm files, you might have noticed that they already make use of the attributes added by CP-1744. Thank you for the CP. They were needed.

On Thursday, 30 March 2023 at 18:39:24 UTC-4, David Clunie wrote:
> Hi Toni
>
> Interesting choice, but if it were me I would probably :
>
> (a) add View Code Sequence (0054,0220) and View Modifier Code Sequence (0054,0222) to the VL Photographic Image as a Standard Extended SOP Class, to mirror the way it is encoded in the DX Positioning Module to mimic the way it is already done in the Digital Intra-Oral X-Ray Image
>
> (b) submit a CP to add these to the standard for VL Photographic Image
>
> rather than using Acquisition Context Sequence, which most consumers (which might otherwise recognize the existing view attributes) won't know to go looking inside, and which is intended for things that don't already have specific data elements defined for them already..
>
> Wrt. CP 1570, that has been festering for some time, and WG 6 has not heard from WG 22 about it for ages, so it doesn't sound like a very good idea to be publishing an ADA/ANSI standard if it is covering the same material as CP 1570 without further input from WG 6.
>
> I recall that CP 1744 added the anatomy information that WG 22 was looking for in relation to this, but I don't think View and View Modifier were included in the previous discussions.
>
> David
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 7:35:54 PM UTC-4, Toni Magni wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > the ADA SCDI is about to publish an ADA/ANSI standard 1107 which defines how to use DICOM to encode photograph views commonly used in orthodontics..
> >
> > In the proposed standard, we currently make use of AcquisitionContextSequence to add an ImageView and an ImageViewModifier, to describe projections, such as
> >
> > 260499007 SCT Occlusal projection (qualifier value)
> > 399198007 SCT Right lateral projection (qualifier value)
> > ...
> >
> > However, this is essentially used like View Code Sequence (0054,0220), already present in other SOP Classes/Modalities.
> >
> > As DICOM experts, would you recommend that in our correction package (CP-1570) View Code Sequence (0054,0220) be added to the VL Image Module (kind of like, for example, SC has in it's SC Image Module), or would you recommend going down the less elegant and more complex-to-implement AcquisitionContextSequence route we currently have?
> >
> > You can find a list of demo DICOM files of how we are currently doing it with the Acquisition Context here:
> >
> > http://brillig.org/~afm/dicom_samples/

Oh, and by the way, yeah: if we can get basically everything that is in ADA-1107 into CP1570, geez, awesome! Sure, why make another standard? But I suspect that it might be slightly too granular and restrictive to go into DICOM itself.

But hey, who ami i to tell? Personally i would love it to go straight into DICOM. All we need is an official standardized way for developers to easily follow and implement orthodontic photographs the same (ideally exact) way. Currently DICOM offers too many ways to do it.

On Thursday, 30 March 2023 at 22:04:57 UTC-4, Toni Magni wrote:
> David,
>
> Thanks for the reply. The reason WG6 hasn’t heard from 22 re CP1570, was because SCDI WG11.6 (us) was still wrapping up how to define the standard and getting new codes added to SNOMED that we could use.
>
> CP1570 (or 1571?) was proposing the utilization of the Acquisition Context for Image View, but i agree with your suggestion.
>
> ADA-1107 should be going out to WG22 for comments/review any moment. I’ll make sure it makes use of ImageView as discussed below before it goes out and I’ll alert Andrew Casertano (author of 1570/1571) to update 1570 and/or 1571 to reflect the change.
>
> If you had a chance to look at the sample dcm files, you might have noticed that they already make use of the attributes added by CP-1744. Thank you for the CP. They were needed.
> On Thursday, 30 March 2023 at 18:39:24 UTC-4, David Clunie wrote:
> > Hi Toni
> >
> > Interesting choice, but if it were me I would probably :
> >
> > (a) add View Code Sequence (0054,0220) and View Modifier Code Sequence (0054,0222) to the VL Photographic Image as a Standard Extended SOP Class, to mirror the way it is encoded in the DX Positioning Module to mimic the way it is already done in the Digital Intra-Oral X-Ray Image
> >
> > (b) submit a CP to add these to the standard for VL Photographic Image
> >
> > rather than using Acquisition Context Sequence, which most consumers (which might otherwise recognize the existing view attributes) won't know to go looking inside, and which is intended for things that don't already have specific data elements defined for them already..
> >
> > Wrt. CP 1570, that has been festering for some time, and WG 6 has not heard from WG 22 about it for ages, so it doesn't sound like a very good idea to be publishing an ADA/ANSI standard if it is covering the same material as CP 1570 without further input from WG 6.
> >
> > I recall that CP 1744 added the anatomy information that WG 22 was looking for in relation to this, but I don't think View and View Modifier were included in the previous discussions.
> >
> > David
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 7:35:54 PM UTC-4, Toni Magni wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > the ADA SCDI is about to publish an ADA/ANSI standard 1107 which defines how to use DICOM to encode photograph views commonly used in orthodontics.
> > >
> > > In the proposed standard, we currently make use of AcquisitionContextSequence to add an ImageView and an ImageViewModifier, to describe projections, such as
> > >
> > > 260499007 SCT Occlusal projection (qualifier value)
> > > 399198007 SCT Right lateral projection (qualifier value)
> > > ...
> > >
> > > However, this is essentially used like View Code Sequence (0054,0220), already present in other SOP Classes/Modalities.
> > >
> > > As DICOM experts, would you recommend that in our correction package (CP-1570) View Code Sequence (0054,0220) be added to the VL Image Module (kind of like, for example, SC has in it's SC Image Module), or would you recommend going down the less elegant and more complex-to-implement AcquisitionContextSequence route we currently have?
> > >
> > > You can find a list of demo DICOM files of how we are currently doing it with the Acquisition Context here:
> > >
> > > http://brillig.org/~afm/dicom_samples/