Ar> By the way, I dare say that the existence of the European Union has
Ar> pacified the Eurozone more than, say, the existence of NATO, by virtuoe

Define pacify? No more "Hitler alike" ignited war flaming the continent?
I think Cold War with a continual threat that whole Europe may be Bolshevik and NATO/American presence on the continent pacified Europe.

When both of these weakened EU tried to grow and struggle to maintain current growth level that keeps the traditional continental powers in charge.

It is dragged into internal conflicts and most likely will miss the opportunity to become what ideally it could have.

And the current conflict in Ukraine also shows that countries that were neutral rather believe in NATO than EU to keep the borders safe.

I think that was surprising to Putin, to see Sweden and Finland joining the Alliance and Switzerland offering ammunition at the early stage of the conflict before anybody spotted that it's a move... when it was spotted the latter withdrew itself from the horizon, but Scandinavia is all about NATO for sure.

-h1

.... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

Re: Re: Russia's Defeat
By: hollowone to Arelor on Tue Aug 01 2023 11:22 am

> Define pacify? No more "Hitler alike" ignited war flaming the continent?

I mean "No more Country_1 invades Country_2 because it likes some strategical
feature of Country_2".

European powers used to be at war against each other all day and now they
aren't.

Current European conflicts of interests may be dangerous (and even threatening
at an existential level) but won't cause EU countries to invade other EU
countries.

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Re: Re: Russia's Defeat
By: Arelor to hollowone on Tue Aug 01 2023 04:49 pm

> Current European conflicts of interests may be dangerous (and even
> threatening at an existential level) but won't cause EU countries to invade
> other EU countries.

This is certainly the hope, but I think we've seen signs that Eastern European countries, but especially Hungary, and even potentially Poland (with its Law and Justice party), are being pushed out of the European mainstream given that their behavior is rightly judged as anti-democratic. Remember that Austria, Romania, and Bulgaria all had similar aliberal moments in recent history, and that this behavior largely has led to the defeat of major EU treaties that would have driven centralization and expansion of the Union.

The next logical step behind a lot of this, in my view, is that as the Eastern Europeans lean more into authoritarianism, there will be a clear incentive to separate from the European Union, and potentially settle differences in a far more confrontational manner. NATO is really the only safeguard against this happening, which is to say that EU member-states must all ultimately become NATO-aligned. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has essentially guaranteed NATO's global supremacy.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Re: Russia's Defeat
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Tue Aug 01 2023 03:16 pm

> This is certainly the hope, but I think we've seen signs that Eastern Europe > ghtly judged as anti-democratic. Remember that Austria, Romania, and Bulgari > of the Union.
>
> The next logical step behind a lot of this, in my view, is that as the Easte > manner. NATO is really the only safeguard against this happening, which is > _____

You are making my case.

The EU has turned into a private club in which people with slightly different
values will be labeled as anti-democratic and demeaned. This is another proof
that the foundations are weaker than people think.

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