-=> Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

Ar> That is all good in paper.

Many things are good on paper, but Bruce is talking about real life.

Ar> My observation from playing hundres of board games is that people is
Ar> actually very bad at deciding for the best option for themselves and
Ar> that there are lots of arbitrary psychological factors kicking in. This
Ar> also applies in real life in spades, but I bring up board games because
Ar> the impact is measurable.

The problem with board games is that they are games. Is a person who stands to
lose their imaginary sword going to play the game the same way if they were
going to lose their car? No.

So, yes, people will make bad decisions in games - because they have less to
lose and don't care.

Ar> Fast forward to real life, I can tell so many stories about people
Ar> backstabbing a third party for 3000 EUR of benefit when a deal between
Ar> the two would have made them tens of thousand of Euro. It is freaking
Ar> nuts.

Yes, it is. And that's an example of a child-minded person who values short
term gains over long term ones. And is a good example of how society is
keeping people child-like longer - to the detriment of society.

Ar> This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws
Ar> parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and
Ar> Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because
Ar> Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
Ar> that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a
Ar> limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in
Ar> Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home
Ar> bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of
Ar> resources, usually because they never gave a damn for Jack to being
Ar> with.

And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how communities
come together to help each other in times of need.

I would argue that Jack didn't have friends. He had a bunch of users who took
advantage of him. He was willfully ignorant if he couldn't see that.

.... When talking nonsense try not to be serious.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

> I would argue that Jack didn't have friends. He had a bunch of users who to
> advantage of him. He was willfully ignorant if he couldn't see that.
>

I agree. My point is precisely that actual friends you can rely on for
anything, even if trivial, are much, much more scarce than people think.

A funny thing is that University Mafias are composed of people who are not
friends to each other but actualy cover for each other. You can tell of
Cathedratics who don't like somebody, yet they still do favors to that person
in order to get the favor in return later. Meanwhile, a lot of average folks
don't get that relationships have a maintenance cost and if you are not
contributing at all you will get eventually cut out.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

> The problem with board games is that they are games. Is a person who stands
> lose their imaginary sword going to play the game the same way if they were
> going to lose their car? No.
>

Many competitive boardgamers take playing Brass more seriously than they take
managing the domestic accounting. They don't make mistakes because it is a game
and they don't care. They make mistakes because of a number of reasons:

Many of these reasons are psychological. The last turn of my first Catan game I
played was something like:

ALFRED: Hey, Tom, if you give me a Wood card, I will give you a Stone card.
RICHARD: Alfred, if Tom gets a single Stone he will do a Development action and
win this turn.
FRED: Don't nobody listen to Richard! I think he does not want Alfred to get
Wood for some reason.
ALFRED: Fuck you, Richard, I am not going to stop a deal just because you don't
like it. Tom, do you accept the deal?
TOM: I do. (Cards change hands). With the Stone I got and this Wheat I Develop.
I win.

ie: Public information such as that Tom had been collecting the resources
needed to win for a good while weighted less for Alfred and Fred than the
perceived idea that they were screwing me over by going on with a deal that got
a gameover for the three of us.

These guys were genuinely surprised when they lost. They genuinely thought they
were screwing me over and thought I was trying to prevent Alfred from building
whatever with Wood.

I know it is a freaking game, but many economic simulators reflect patterns
often seen in reality, and one common pattern is going out of one's way to
screw somebody you think to be a threat and exposing oneself to bad
consequences as a result.

The other most common pattern is exchanging resources with another player,
which then uses the resources you just gave him to destroy you (ie: you set a
trade agreement with another player and provide him with ore in exchange of
food. Then the player uses the ore to build a tank army and run you over). How
many Heterosexual Whites are funding political parties and purchasing products
from firms that are openly torpedoing Heterosexual Whites? Paying a
subscription for a streaming service which will use your money to generate
propaganda against you is well out of the realm of board games and happens all
the freaking time.

--
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am

> Ar> This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws
> Ar> parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and
> Ar> Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because
> Ar> Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates
> Ar> that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a
> Ar> limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in
> Ar> Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at home
> Ar> bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of

this is the 'hare with many friends' aesop fable.

> And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how
> communities come together to help each other in times of need.

that doesn't happen anymore.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: MRO to Dr. What on Mon Jul 25 2022 02:27 pm

> Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
> By: Dr. What to Arelor on Mon Jul 25 2022 08:32 am
>
> > Ar> This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws
> > Ar> parties with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly a
> > Ar> Jack asks for friends for help in order to get it repaired, because
> > Ar> Jack is one-handed and has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dicta
> > Ar> that at least one of Jack's friends will help out, because for a
> > Ar> limited investment, everybody will get to continue having parties in
> > Ar> Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack friends stays at h
> > Ar> bored forever more because they don't want to spend the meagrest of
>
>
> this is the 'hare with many friends' aesop fable.
>
> > And you are ignoring the many instances of "barn raising" and how
> > communities come together to help each other in times of need.
>
> that doesn't happen anymore.

Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jul 25 2022 11:57 pm

> > that doesn't happen anymore.
>
> Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

you need to look deeper into that.
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> > > that doesn't happen anymore.
> >
> > Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.

> you need to look deeper into that.

I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who
could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make
payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

Several years ago, a tornado went through a town in Arkansas. The only
homes left standing were HoH homes because they were the only ones built to
the latest code.

* SLMR 2.1a * Keep your stick on the ice

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

> > > > that doesn't happen anymore.
>
> > > Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
>
> > you need to look deeper into that.
>
> I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
> team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who
> could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make
> payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold
off to someone else.
and pretty damn soon too.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm

> > > > that doesn't happen anymore.
> > >
> > > Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
>
> > you need to look deeper into that.
>
> I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
> team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who
> could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make
> payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.
>
> Several years ago, a tornado went through a town in Arkansas. The only
> homes left standing were HoH homes because they were the only ones built to
> the latest code.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * Keep your stick on the ice
>
Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the
house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids
were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided
supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to
prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the
house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a
hood rat a new crack house.

One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some houses
in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and
replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by
Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they
were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

---
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 12:37 am

>
> Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of
> the house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose
> kids were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided
> supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to
> prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the
> house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home

https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/regional/florida/habitat-for-humanity-harsh-reality-hits-home/67-326566274

i'm in wisconsin. every habitat for humanity home i know of no longer has that resident.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 27 2022 11:04 pm

> Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
> By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jul 27 2022 04:14 pm
>
> > > > > that doesn't happen anymore.
> >
> > > > Explain Habitat for Humanities, and what they do.
> >
> > > you need to look deeper into that.
> >
> > I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
> > team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people wh
> > could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to ma
> > payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes
>
> some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold
> off to someone else.
> and pretty damn soon too.

Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those that
need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to
provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify.
They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mortage
off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is
interest rate is 0%.

---
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> > I am not sure about their international organization but, locally, they
> > team up with churches and private businesses to build homes for people who
> > could not otherwise afford a mortgage. Those persons do still have to make
> > payments... the house is not free but is more affordable than other homes.

> some people arent meant to own homes. every Hfh home i know of has been sold
> off to someone else.
> and pretty damn soon too.

That is possible for sure, especially if the persons who originally own the
home don't keep their payments up.

I agree, some folks are not meant to own them. The government
encouragement to persons to buy homes is part of what lead to our housing
market crisis a few years back... and, yes, I do know that there were other
reasons, including banks that took advantage of these same folks.

* SLMR 2.1a * Goodness! That was close! I almost gave a damn.

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> Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of the
> house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kids
> were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided
> supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to
> prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the
> house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
> is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a
> hood rat a new crack house.

Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H,
participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially
help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
do have to go through a selection process.

> One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some houses
> in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and
> replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by
> Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they
> were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.

I am guessing that Jimmy puts them to work. :) 20+ years ago, Carter was
here in KY working with a similar group in an event called "Hammering in
the Hills" where they were building homes in poorer areas of Appalachia.

Jimmy Carter was not great as a President when it comes to economics, but
he is one of the few recent ones that has really put an effort behind
trying to make lives better for people.

* SLMR 2.1a * What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:00 am

> Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those that
> need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to
> provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify.
> They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mortage
> off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is
> interest rate is 0%.

nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy?
especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm

>
> Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H,
> participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially
> help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
> do have to go through a selection process.
>

no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people have what it takes to help build a home.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm

> > Not sure how that works after the houses were built, but I do know one of
> > house our H4H volunteers at the place I worked at was for a lady whose kid
> > were finally at an age where she could go to work, and she was provided
> > supplemental education from the local junior college to provide certs to
> > prove she had employable skills. The family had to help in building the
> > house, and the families have to go through a selection process so the home
> > is going to someone who can sustain a home and keep it up versus giving a
> > hood rat a new crack house.
>
> Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H,
> participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially
> help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
> do have to go through a selection process.
>
> > One year we had Jimmy Carter and his wife come out and help build some hou
> > in a new community project. Several old rotting houses were torn down and
> > replaced by modern housing built up to code. He was still protected by
> > Secret Service, and instead of looking like extras from Men in Black, they
> > were wearing polo shirts, jeans, and work boots.
>
> I am guessing that Jimmy puts them to work. :) 20+ years ago, Carter was
> here in KY working with a similar group in an event called "Hammering in
> the Hills" where they were building homes in poorer areas of Appalachia.
>
> Jimmy Carter was not great as a President when it comes to economics, but
> he is one of the few recent ones that has really put an effort behind
> trying to make lives better for people.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!
>
Indeed. Carter is better know for what he did outside the office than when
he was in the office.

One of the my teachers was a member of the Sotuhwest Michigan Economics Club,
and each month they would bring in a speaker. He attended the time Carter
spoke. He liked Carter becuase there were times when Carter failed, but was
also ahead of the curve when it came to energy conservation.

After the speech, the line was long for getting autographs, so he went tothe
restroom first. While finishing up a tthe urinal, a Secret Serviceman came
in, checked all the stalls, then gave the "all clear" for Carter to use the ba
throom. Of all the stalls and urinals, he parks himself right next to my
teacher. My teacher started talking politics and economics, then asked if
he he could shake his hand. Carter said, " I hate to be impolite, but maybe
we should wash our hands first." i guess it's standard operating procedure
for Sercet Service to check the hands of people before they shake hands with
the people they protect to make sure they do not have blades or needles or
other dangerous items.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:46 pm

> Indeed. Carter is better know for what he did outside the office than when
> he was in the office.
>

he's known for what he did in office but not in a good way.

> One of the my teachers was a member of the Sotuhwest Michigan Economics
> Club, and each month they would bring in a speaker. He attended the time
> Carter spoke. He liked Carter becuase there were times when Carter failed,
> but was also ahead of the curve when it came to energy conservation.
>
> After the speech, the line was long for getting autographs, so he went tothe
> restroom first. While finishing up a tthe urinal, a Secret Serviceman came
> in, checked all the stalls, then gave the "all clear" for Carter to use the

he's good at being a figurehead or doing sound bites.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: MRO to Moondog on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:32 pm

> Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
> By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jul 28 2022 11:00 am
>
> > Very true. That doesn't mean people should stop offering help to those t
> > need a chance to make their live's better. HfH recipients are required to
> > provide "sweat equity" and help build other homes, and very few qualify.
> > They cannot do any major renovations to the homes until they pay the mort
> > off, and must notify HfH if they decide to sell the house. Nice part is
> > interest rate is 0%.
>
>
> nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy?
> especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.

The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing
handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't need
help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people are
born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to climb
further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have to fight
their own peers pulling them down.

---
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jul 28 2022 10:36 pm

> Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
> By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:25 pm
>
> >
> > Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H,
> > participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially
> > help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and th
> > do have to go through a selection process.
> >
>
> no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people

That is why they are given jobs they can do or are under supervision for
people who do this all the time. At a former employer we had guys that had
about a hundred H4H houses under their belt. They knew how to frame, do
drywall, roof, do plumbing and electricty as part of their regular trades.
The random volunteers end up painting, sweeping, picking up debris, or act as
runners and fetch items for the experts. You might even see the new owners
and their families helping in planting trees, doing landscaping, and other
menial labor. Even if they are building one or two houses, other houses are
being painted, repaired or general cleanup is required.

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> > Exactly. I have a family member who has been involved with H4H,
> > participating on the building crews, for years now. They don't initially
> > help just anyone get a home. They do have to help in building it, and they
> > do have to go through a selection process.

> no only do some people not have what it takes to OWN a home, not many people h
> e what it takes to help build a home.

They don't give them the hard jobs unless they have experience in home
building.

* SLMR 2.1a * Kill them all! .... Let God sort them out.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 11:31 am

>
> > nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy?
> > especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handouts.
>
> The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing
> handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't need
> help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people
> are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to
> climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have to
> fight their own peers pulling them down.

that's just a bunch of words without meaning. i got myself out of the hole.
other people can do that too.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Jul 30 2022 01:25 am

> Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
> By: Moondog to MRO on Fri Jul 29 2022 11:31 am
>
> >
> > > nobody ever gave me any help so why should other people have it easy?
> > > especially when they arent cut out for it after getting so many handou
> >
> > The objective is to get people who are on the verge of no longer needing
> > handouts out of that trap and back into regular society. If you didn't n
> > help, no one will lend you a hand. Easy is a relative term. When people
> > are born, the cards may already ben stacked against them. Some have to
> > climb further up the rope to get clear of rising water. They might have
> > fight their own peers pulling them down.
>
>
> that's just a bunch of words without meaning. i got myself out of the hole.
> other people can do that too.

Everyone is different. Some take longer to learn concepts such as saving
moneey and spending within their means. Some are less willing to take risks.
Mileage varies. If we have a chance to teach people how to take care of
themselves, this helps everybody eventually. It is better than hiding under
a rock and letting the world unravel.

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