-=> Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

Ar> Sorry, but people is inherently untrustworthy and this is evident for
Ar> anybody who ever tries to push forward a personal project that needs
Ar> support from other people. Friends are your friends only as long as it
Ar> does not cost them any effort. Once your friendship requires
Ar> maintenance on their part, you can kiss your friends goodbie.

The Bruce Schneier book "Liars and Outliars" comes to mind. He goes over why
most people are honest, why a few people are almost always dishonest, and why
honest people will sometimes be dishonest. It's actually quite interesting.

But I disagree with your idea that people are inherently untrustworthy. They
are completely trustworthy: to do what is in **their**, not **your**, best
interests. Once you understand that, you don't do things like always pay
upfront, for example.

The problem comes in with the mentality that we can **make** others act in
**our** best interests. This mentality can never work and trying to force
people to do so will make them sabotage things.

Ar> Success comes from realizing that most people will backstab you for a
Ar> bag of chewing gum and keeping a close circle of trustworthy friends
Ar> from the 5% that would not murder their mothers for pocket change.

Success comes from realizing that no one but you will act in your best
interests and the others will always act in their best interests. From that
you set up an agreement that, for the most part, is in both of your best
interests, with substantial penalties if either of you break the agreement.

This type of system has been in use for a long, long time now and is very
successful.

.... Always remember you're unique - just like everyone else.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dr. What to Arelor on Sun Jul 24 2022 09:17 am

> The Bruce Schneier book "Liars and Outliars" comes to mind. He goes over wh
> most people are honest, why a few people are almost always dishonest, and wh
> honest people will sometimes be dishonest. It's actually quite interesting.
>
> But I disagree with your idea that people are inherently untrustworthy. The
> are completely trustworthy: to do what is in **their**, not **your**, best
> interests. Once you understand that, you don't do things like always pay
> upfront, for example.
>

That is all good in paper.

My observation from playing hundres of board games is that people is actually
very bad at deciding for the best option for themselves and that there are lots
of arbitrary psychological factors kicking in. This also applies in real life
in spades, but I bring up board games because the impact is measurable.

I can count by scores the number of times I have offered a deal in a board game
that provided both myself and the second party with a huge boost, and the offer
has been discarded in favor of a move that placed the other player in a losing
position. I can also count by scores the number of times I have made a move
assuming the next player in turn order would act in his best interest, making
both he and me a lot of points and destroying the third player, only for the
second player to make a suicidal move and grant victory to the third player
instead.

Many of those botches were made in games with PERFECT INFORMATION.

Fast forward to real life, I can tell so many stories about people backstabbing
a third party for 3000 EUR of benefit when a deal between the two would have
made them tens of thousand of Euro. It is freaking nuts.

History is full of losers who did not only lose, but they pulled lots of people
alongside them in their trip to Hell. Hitler comes to mind.

This applies in so many fields of life. Jack has hut where he throws parties
with friends. One day the wind damages the roof very badly and Jack asks for
friends for help in order to get it repaired, because Jack is one-handed and
has a wooden peg for a leg. Game theory dictates that at least one of Jack's
friends will help out, because for a limited investment, everybody will get to
continue having parties in Jack's hut. What happens is that everyone of Jack
friends stays at home bored forever more because they don't want to spend the
meagrest of resources, usually because they never gave a damn for Jack to being
with.

It would not be a problem if people lacked loyalty ONLY. THe problem is they
are stupid in addition to that.

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