-=> Kaelon wrote to Dr. What <=-

Ka> system, they should have been all allowed to fail. Where are your
Ka> cries for the lame excuses of banks and manufacturing in 2008-2009, or
Ka> for airlines, commodities traders, and real estate speculators now in
Ka> the 2020-2022 Pandemic period?

You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.

.... Please save the above drivel for future reference!
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm

> You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.

It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was talking about "you," the arch-capitalist defending the current nonsense.
_____
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Kaelon to Dr. What on Sun Jul 17 2022 01:22 pm

> Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
> By: Dr. What to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 02:12 pm
>
> > You should actually **read** my messages before replying to them.
>
> It was rhetorical. I wasn't talking about "you, Dr. What," I was talking about "you
> _____
> -=: Kaelon :=-
>
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Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks crash and
rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that, to arrange a solution for a
profit.

Here in Spain we had lots of banks buying crashed banks because of their customer
portfolio.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu Jul 21 2022 06:04 am

> Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed banks
> crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that, to arrange
> a solution for a profit.
>
> Here in Spain we had lots of banks buying crashed banks because of their
> customer portfolio.

Yes. And I am in full agreement with the concept that true Capitalism, without institutional interference but with some basic safeguards to ensure that consolidation to exploit consumers is restricted, has to have clear risks to match their rewards. Banks have enjoyed vast profits with almost no real risk of collapse.

True Capitalism would have allowed all of the banks to fail. And would have never allowed such a thing as "too big to fail" to exist. But, as we've discussed elsewhere, the Western Global Order is not capitalist. It is a Corporate Syndicate that reflects the consolidation of economic and political pillars in our society stemming from the Post-War Order.
_____
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-=> Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

Ar> Actually, the arch-capitalists were the ones saying to let the failed
Ar> banks crash and rot, or if any institution was not willing to do that,
Ar> to arrange a solution for a profit.

The idea is that if a business fails, you free up the capital for a new
business built on stronger foundations/ideals. You don't patch a sinking
ship, you build a better ship.

.... Only a part, not the whole
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 05:40 am

> Yes. And I am in full agreement with the concept that true Capitalism,
> without institutional interference but with some basic safeguards to ensure
> that consolidation to exploit consumers is restricted, has to have clear
> risks to match their rewards. Banks have enjoyed vast profits with almost
> no real risk of collapse.
>
> True Capitalism would have allowed all of the banks to fail. And would have
> never allowed such a thing as "too big to fail" to exist. But, as we've
> discussed elsewhere, the Western Global Order is not capitalist. It is a
> Corporate Syndicate that reflects the consolidation of economic and
> political pillars in our society stemming from the Post-War Order.
> _____

What *IS* true Capitalism? Serious question. IT seems to me like saying if we has TRUE Christianity then.... That just invites debate as to which is the true Christianity. Is it the Catholics, the Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses?

AnarchoCapitalists say theirs is the true faith, but others have different
ideas.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Thu Jul 21 2022 07:34 am

> The idea is that if a business fails, you free up the capital for a new
> business built on stronger foundations/ideals. You don't patch a sinking
> ship, you build a better ship.
>
When Wall St tomfoolery crashes the market, it doens't "Free up" capital. Wealth just dissapears.

Blowing up the economy doesn't free up Capital.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat Jul 23 2022 10:54 am

> What *IS* true Capitalism? Serious question. IT seems to me like saying if
> we has TRUE Christianity then.... That just invites debate as to which is
> the true Christianity. Is it the Catholics, the Orthodox, Jehovah's
> Witnesses?

First of all, I would never advance dogma as part of a central truth. Truths have factual elements born from observation and experimentation to establish their systems of tautology. Dogma would advance absolutes regardless of facts, and the idea that "Capitalism must look exactly like this in order for it to be qualified as capitalism," is misguided zealotry, at best.

Capitalism's central tautological tenets, therefore, have been borne out through history, and I understand them to be as follows, at their "core":

1. Free Markets, open to easy and unencumbered entrance by new players, to spur genuine competition so that customers have comparable choices and companies have incentives to innovate.

2. Anti-Trust, so that large companies do not consolidate the marketplace to eliminate the possibility of new entrants from competing or limit the choices that consumers have when determining what to purchase.

3. Transparency, in understanding the way in which companies are managing their businesses so that shareholders can make informed decisions about where to invest and how to cast votes.

4. Accountability, in ensuring that for every reward gained there is a proportional and real risk endured in the marketplace by its actors, and that success is rewarded and failure accordingly punished.

5. Openness, in ensuring that government does not interfere in the participation in its market by creating favored winners or losers, but whose only laws and regulations exist to enforce the above characteristics.

Those are my views. What do you think? Capitalism shouldn't be a religion. It should be a constant civic virtue to make the system work through freedom, anti-trust, transparency, risk-and-reward, and institutional openness.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun Jul 24 2022 12:44 pm

> The reason I ask is that usually when I discuss another system, which ticks
> "Socialist".
>

Here is the thing:

No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you
describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whole
territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

The problem comes when you point at a firm which is not a cooperative, and uses
a traditional structure with an employer and a bunch of employees, and you
claim such model is broken. This is specially problematic because the arguments
in doing so are not new and tipically come from Marxist wannabes going bonkers.
"See, Jack built the shoe making machine and taught me to use it. He is such an
asshat. How come I do all the work for a salary and he gets the profits from
the sales? He is a lazy scumbag. Burn the factory!"

Then there is the fact I think cooperatives only take you so far. As I have
mentioned multiple times already, the only cooperatives that stay healthy are
horizontal ones. Horizontal cooperatives are limited in what they accomplish by
virtue of lacking specialized resources (ie.deeply specialized workers or
deeply specialized machinery).

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> Here is the thing:

> No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you
> describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whole
> territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.

They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating in
one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people who
really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our whole
economy. However, if I point out that it would be fine if they want to get
a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they
are not at all interested in doing so.

Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something they
don't want to.

* SLMR 2.1a * "Cool! I broke his brain!" - Bart on Principal Skinner

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to ARELOR on Mon Jul 25 2022 04:33 pm

> > Here is the thing:
>
> > No Capitalist has an issue with anybody setting up a cooperative as you
> > describe. In fact no Capitalists would object if you managed to run a whol
> > territory on cooperatives alone, as you describe.
>
> They don't like if if you are trying to force them into participating in
> one. That is one thing that confuses me... there are some people who
> really want us to go to a cooperative or socialist model for our whole
> economy. However, if I point out that it would be fine if they want to get
> a bunch of like-minded people together and form one for themselves, they
> are not at all interested in doing so.
>
> Their interest seems to mostly be in forcing others to do something they
> don't want to.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * "Cool! I broke his brain!" - Bart on Principal Skinner
>

The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their part.
Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable or
undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, it
may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a need
for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor
sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communities
so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job.
Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not be
the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either.

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> The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their part.
> Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable or
> undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major, it
> may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a need
> for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor
> sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communities
> so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job.
> Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not be
> the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either.

We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons
I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still
be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal
arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain
favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in
charge.

I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.

* SLMR 2.1a * "I didn't know chicks in videos wore underpants!"- Beavis

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Tue Jul 26 2022 06:11 pm

DW> We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist
DW> persons I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will
DW> still be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a
DW> liberal arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope
DW> to gain favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who
DW> would be in charge.

DW> I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.

A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if the United States ever becomes a socialist country. I have had family that came from behind the Iron curtin after world war 2. I have had friends that have come from socialist countries due to all sorts of issues that are a result of a communist / socialist country. I know people that have immigrated here to the us legally and they are terrified that it will happen here as well beacuse they see it starting to happen here

BrokenMind

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Tue Jul 26 2022 06:11 pm

> > The fallacy in moving to a socialist model is everyone has to do their par
> > Everybody capable of working will have a job, regardless of how desirable
> > undesirable. If you want to go to school to lbecome a liberal arts major,
> > may or may not happen based on the society's need for it. If there is a n
> > for floor sweepers, you may become one of the most educated of the floor
> > sweepers. In China, they restrict travel of residents in farming communit
> > so they will not walk away from the fields in order to work a factory job.
> > Socialism may not be that stripped down, however the job you want may not
> > the job you like. Social assistance will not a bunch of giveaways, either
>
> We've probably discussed this before, but most of the pro-socialist persons
> I know do not understand this. They seem to believe that they will still
> be able to pursue their dreams of being able-bodied and having a liberal
> arts major while doing nothing. I suspect that some of them hope to gain
> favor from, or even a cushy government position from, those who would be in
> charge.
>
> I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * "I didn't know chicks in videos wore underpants!"- Beavis
>

Canada's healthcare system is a good example of limitations of services.
Some US cities have multiple hospitals and clinics that may provide
or advanced radiology services. In Canada you might have to drive 100
miles to another city. Second opinions requiring a drastic change in
treatmenrt may not be approved. The service you receive will be the best for
the budget they provide, but don't ask for more.

---
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> DW> I believe that a vast majority of them would be in for a rude awakening.

> A lot of people will be in for a rude awakening if the United States ever beco
> s a socialist country. I have had family that came from behind the Iron curti
> after world war 2. I have had friends that have come from socialist countries
> e to all sorts of issues that are a result of a communist / socialist country.
> know people that have immigrated here to the us legally and they are terrifie
> that it will happen here as well beacuse they see it starting to happen here

Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have noticed,
when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope for our country
to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their experiences, as if
it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in such a place.

Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

* SLMR 2.1a * "Dude! We have the power supreme!" - Butthead

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> Canada's healthcare system is a good example of limitations of services.
> Some US cities have multiple hospitals and clinics that may provide
> or advanced radiology services. In Canada you might have to drive 100
> miles to another city. Second opinions requiring a drastic change in
> treatmenrt may not be approved. The service you receive will be the best for
> the budget they provide, but don't ask for more.

I was talking to a born-Canadian once who volunteered to serve in the US
Army. It seems like we are often seeing news articles here in the US that
give the VA healthcare system a black eye, but he told me he takes
advantage of his VA benefits, as a US veteran, and not his Canadian
government-provided benefits. He said that, in his opinion, the VA (and US
care in general) was better than what he could get at home.

* SLMR 2.1a * So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Thu Jul 28 2022 04:19 pm

> I was talking to a born-Canadian once who volunteered to serve in the US
> Army. It seems like we are often seeing news articles here in the US that
> give the VA healthcare system a black eye, but he told me he takes
> advantage of his VA benefits, as a US veteran, and not his Canadian
> government-provided benefits. He said that, in his opinion, the VA (and US
> care in general) was better than what he could get at home.
>
>

that's pretty bad because the va is known to have a lot of issues.
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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to BROKENMIND on Wed Jul 27 2022 03:49 pm

DW> Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
DW> well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have
DW> noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope
DW> for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their
DW> experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in
DW> such a place.
DW> Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

I agree with you and it's really sad to see

BrokenMind

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to BROKENMIND on Wed Jul 27 2022 03:49 pm

DW> Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
DW> well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have
DW> noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope
DW> for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their
DW> experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in
DW> such a place.

DW> Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the problem in todays world also.

BrokenMind

---
■ Synchronet

-=> Brokenmind wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

DW> Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
DW> well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have
DW> noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope
DW> for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their
DW> experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in
DW> such a place.

DW> Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

Br> A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
Br> transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
Br> problem in todays world also.

Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.

.... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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-=> Quoting Gamgee to Brokenmind <=-

-=> Brokenmind wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
DW> Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
DW> well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have
DW> noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope
DW> for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their
DW> experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in
DW> such a place.
DW> Some of them must live in a dreamworld.
Br> A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
Br> transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
Br> problem in todays world also.

Ga> Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.

Ga> ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

Hey there Gamgee. I'm new here, but looking at some of your
messages, it appears that you take your tagline seriously.

Cougar

.... "Don't mince words, Gamgee ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

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-=> Cougar428 wrote to GAMGEE <=-

Br> A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and
Br> transparent and will get offened if corrected thats alot of the
Br> problem in todays world also.

Ga> Spelling and grammar are some other major problems in today's world.

Ga> ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

Co> Hey there Gamgee. I'm new here, but looking at some of your
Co> messages, it appears that you take your tagline seriously.

Well yes, I suppose I do. ;-) Welcome aboard.

.... All the easy problems have been solved.
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> DW> Over the years, I have known people who lived behind the Iron Curtain, as
> DW> well as that have fled Vietnam and mainland China. As you may have
> DW> noticed, when you mention such people to any of your "friends" that hope
> DW> for our country to become socialist/communist, they will downplay their
> DW> experiences, as if it was their fault that they did not "enjoy" life in
> DW> such a place.

> DW> Some of them must live in a dreamworld.

> A dreamworld / another reality / or not able to be open and transparent and wi
> get offened if corrected thats alot of the problem in todays world also.

Indeed it is. Another part of that problem is being afraid to offend those
types of folks. Instead our society has taken the path of accepting bad
behavior, that was past unacceptable, and then for some unknown reason
expecting good to come out of it.

* SLMR 2.1a * Do not make whisky in private, or water in public.

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Re: Re: Recession to Depressi
By: Dumas Walker to BROKENMIND on Sat Feb 04 2023 10:09 am

DW> Indeed it is. Another part of that problem is being afraid to offend those
DW> types of folks. Instead our society has taken the path of accepting bad
DW> behavior, that was past unacceptable, and then for some unknown reason
DW> expecting good to come out of it.

I agree and it's not helping anyone

BrokenMind

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