On 10/19/2022 9:27 PM, David Samuel Barr wrote:
> Hard to believe, but this is a followup to posts
> I made here about this time 16 years ago, when
> the folks here (especially the venerable Paul)
> helped me spec out the PC I wanted to build at
> that time (while I've been building since 1985
> it's usually several years between full builds
> [as opposed to incremental changes] and I'm not
> always as current on developments as more regular
> builders are).  That system is still running
> (I'm typing this on it) and so far I've only
> needed to replace the hard drive (after ten
> years) and the power supply (after fifteen).
> However, while I've been determinedly running on
> Windows XP this whole time (as we all know Windows
> has gone downhill ever since) I'm starting to run
> into too many situations where, for example, some
> websites won't run on the last version of Firefox
> that works in XP (sometimes because they think
> it's IE and tell me as much), while some programs
> or updates thereof now won't run on anything
> lower than Windows 7, 8 or even 10, and if I were
> to decide to finally bite the bullet and update
> to 11 my current hardware likely wouldn't meet
> all of its installation requirements.
>
> So it seems I'm finally looking at having to do
> a new build in the near future.  I've done some
> research and tried to spec out what I think
> probably would work best but once again I want
> to throw it out to the gang here for evaluation,
> especially since last time when I did so the
> valuable comments led me to my current v2.0 build
> which is worlds away from and much better than
> the initial v1.0 spec I presented.  I'm hoping
> to retain my existing hardware where possible,
> although I suspect most of those components
> won't fit or run on a modern MB or have just
> become obsolete, so I've mapped this out to show
> [what I have now] and what I think >>> I'd have
> to replace it with or what I think I could keep,
> and why.
>
> First, though, a recap of what I expect to use
> the new build for (which hasn't really changed
> much since I first typed this in 2006):
>
> 1) Word processing (WordPerfect and Word 2003)
> 2) Multiple large complex spreadsheets (QuattroPro
>    and Excel 2003)
> 3) Filling in and printing PDF forms (Adobe Reader)
> 4) Internet use
>    a) e-mail and Usenet (Thunderbird)
>    b) Web research & browsing (Firefox)
>    c) Modifying PDF documents (ILovePDF)
>    d) Occasional file transfers
> 5) a) Creating & editing MIDI files and printed
>       scores (Finale or Sibelius), sometimes
>       with input from an outboard digital piano;
>    b) Transferring vinyl records to CD-R(W) or
>       MP3; maybe some editing thereof
>    c) Capturing various audio/video sources and
>       editing sound bites
> 6) a) Some DVR use with some possible edits/
>       transfers to DVD
>    b) Some VHS-to-DVD conversion and some editing
>       thereof
>    c) Some editing of clips from DVR/DVD sources
> NO GAMING (except FreeCell), NO OVERCLOCKING but
> a LOT of multitasking of the above processes
>
> [I still want to be able to do 5) and 6) even
> though I frustratingly have never had time to
> do any of it on this system after all these
> years; I even specifically bought Windows XP MCE
> for this purpose and yet have never even had a
> chance to set up much less use MCE.  Still, hope
> springs eternal.  I mostly use Corel WordPerfect
> and QuattroPro for my own work but one of my
> main jobs requires daily MS Excel and Word use
> (and I'm sticking with 2003 for both, which I
> prefer over the later "ribbon" versions and
> which actually lets me do some things they
> can't), which is why you see both suites
> incongruously listed here.]
>
> Given that, here's the hardware I've picked so far:
>
> CPU: [Intel Core 2 Duo E6400] >>> Intel Core i5 12600
> The i5 12600 seems to be the best balance of specs
> and price in the 12th Gen line for my needs.  I
> don't need its integrated graphics processor since
> I plan to have a video card, which might speak to
> going for the 12600KF which doesn't have it.
> However, unlike in 11th Gen, the KF isn't just
> missing the GPU while inexplicably running at twice
> the wattage but has completely different architecture,
> so the question is whether the apparent modestly
> higher benchmarks on the KF are significant enough
> to justify all the impact of its higher power draw
> (and its higher price).
>
> CPU cooling: Not previously addressed in v2.0--I
> just used the fan Intel supplied with the CPU--
> but with the above CPUs it's become a factor.
> While the 12600 comes with a fan I've read some
> reviews which say that it's inadequate, and the
> KF doesn't come with any cooler, so either way
> I'd need to explore options here and while I have
> a sense that liquid might be better than air
> (though mostly seems to be used by gamers running
> rigs that would set their houses on fire if left
> to stock fans) I really don't have a good grip on
> this and would welcome guidance.
>
> Motherboard: [Asus P5B-E] >>> Asus Prime Z690-P WiFi
> Given my P5B-E's trouble-free performance to
> date I'm still something of an Asus loyalist
> although I know some folks around here tend to
> favour some other brands.  The Z690-P seems to
> be the best of Asus's LGA1700 MBs for my needs;
> I've never needed WiFi where I am so far but I
> figure for the few extra bucks over the other
> Asus Prime Z690s without it it couldn't hurt to
> get it now just in case of future need.
>
> Memory: [Crucial 2x1Gb Kit, DDR2-533, PC2-4200]
> >>> Crucial 2x16GB Kit, DDR5-4800 UDIMM CT2K16G48C40U5
> For me Crucial has always been the single
> no-brainer in builds.  If I'm reading the specs
> and guidelines for the above CPUs and MB properly
> I think this is the most compatible set; anyone
> know differently?  (I'm also assuming 2x16Gb is
> adequate; if not, I could bump up to 2x32Gb Kit
> or two 2x16GB Kits.)
>
> {Note: I originally specced this as an 11th Gen
> build with Intel i5 11600KF, Asus Prime Z590-P
> Wifi and Crucial DDR4-3200 memory since I was
> seeing some negative writeups of 12th Gen CPUs
> & sockets (e.g. buckling of the LGA1700 sockets
> which compromised CPU cooling) and CPU/MB prices
> but further reading suggested I still should go
> ahead and jump to 12th Gen; if there's any
> reason you think I'm better off with 11th Gen
> than 12th Gen please so advise.}
>
> Storage: [Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD] >>>
> Samsung 980PRO nvME M.2 PCIe4.0 SSD w/Heatsink
> While I'm old-skool enough to want to stick with
> a WD HDD as I have since the 1980s it's obvious
> that SSD is now the current standard and the
> Samsung 980PRO seems to be getting the best
> reviews I've found.  If it fits I might also
> hook up my current WD Blue 1TB HDD (five years
> old; it replaced the 10-year-old WD 320Gb
> WD3200KS) and use it for data storage but given
> that I've never filled any more than 75Gb on it
> with both programs and data (50Gb on its
> predecessor) even a 250Gb SSD likely would be
> far more than ever needed (though I'd probably
> spring for a 500Gb one just in case) so unless
> I keep the current system intact I'm more
> likely to get an enclosure for that HDD and
> turn it into an external backup drive.
>
> Optical Drive: [Samsung SH-S182D DVD/CD writer]
> >>> Asus BW-16D1HT Blu-Ray/DVD/CD writer
> I initially assumed I'd just transfer the
> existing drive over to the new build but I've
> just recently started to rethink this.  At the
> time of my current build Blu-Ray was fairly
> new and people were saying it wouldn't catch on,
> especially for computers, so I didn't get a
> Blu-Ray drive, just a DVD one, and I've never
> acquired any Blu-Ray discs (except a few that
> came as part of CD music album packages), even
> as they've apparently largely been relegated to
> the clearance bins at the Best Buys of the
> world.  However, just this year I've found that
> the label which acquired the back catalogue of
> certain longtime noted musician friends of mine
> has been reissuing their albums with Blu-Ray
> discs of remixes thereof (which also have some
> video content), and those can't be played on
> my TV's standalone HDD/DVD recorder any more
> than the DVD-Audio discs I have can be, so I'd
> need some kind of Blu-Ray reader and all the PC
> internal drives I'm finding are writers though
> all seem to have some kind of limitation of
> what discs of any kind they can handle.  The
> top reviewed ones seem to be LG, Asus and (less
> so) Pioneer, and the Asus has a power-saving
> feature which the others don't which gives it
> a bit of an edge when not in use.
>
> Video Card: [BFG GeForce 7600GT OC]
> This is a PCIe card that should run in one of
> the X16 slots on the Z690-P board so apparently
> no reason not to carry it over.  If, as it may
> turn out, this is the only piece that can be
> carried over I'd more likely keep the current
> system intact with it and then need to find a
> suitable card for the new system (BFG went out
> of business in 2010 so I can't just get another
> one of these); suggestions?
>
> Sound Card: [Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum
> SB0460] >>> Creative Sound Blaster Audigy Rx
> Unfortunately I don't think I can use the X-Fi
> PCI card on the Z690-P in one of the other PCIe
> slots, and Creative tells me this Audigy is the
> best they can do for what I want although if
> someone's got a better idea I'm open to it,
> since this is an eight-year-old product with
> mixed reviews.  One of the key reasons for
> originally choosing the X-Fi Platinum was its
> front panel I/O drive box which was the only way
> to connect MIDI devices to the system (ditto RCA
> phone, phono and optical plugs), and Creative
> has not designed its current cards to work with
> this I/O box or otherwise duplicate its functions,
> now using only 3.5mm mini jacks necessitating a
> jungle of adaptor cords and plugs to connect
> anything else to them.  Evidently these days
> MIDI devices are now more often communicating
> via USB rather than 5-pin MIDI plugs, which
> would make the I/O box unnecessary for that
> purpose but I still like it for its facile
> multiplicity of connections and would have
> liked to have been able to keep it.
>
> Floppy Disk Drive: [NEC FD1231H-302]
> Yes, believe it or not I still have an archive
> of 3.5" floppies (even some 5") which I haven't
> had the time to copy onto a USB drive, and I
> have occasionally had people come to me with
> their own floppies they need me to read and/or
> transfer files from.  I see no reason not to
> be prepared if it's not a drain on resources,
> and since I can't reuse the one in my current
> system which seems to have failed I'd likely
> want to look at something which handles these
> and perhaps also assorted memory cards (SD,
> CF, etc) like the Syba SY-CRD50034 or Sabrent
> CRW-FLP2 (not that those seem to be findable
> any more), again just in case.
>
> Modem Card: [Multitech MT5634ZPX-PCI-U]
> Haven't had to send faxes from my computer in
> many years so not planning to try to carry
> this over; also unlikely it would run in a
> PCIe X16 slot even if I put it in.  Not
> using the computer as an answering machine
> either so don't know of any other reason to
> have a phone modem (except perhaps for a
> dialup backup if my broadband went out) but
> if the PCIe x1 slot is open I could always
> toss in a USRobotics USR5638, again (all
> together now) just in case.
>
> Power Supply: [PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750]
> I just got this power supply last year when
> the 15-year-old Silencer 470 gave out, so I
> would expect to transfer it to the new build
> unless I decide to keep the current system
> intact, in which case I'd just buy a new one
> of these for the new build unless a different
> one is called for.
>
> Case: [CoolerMaster Elite 330; added Antec TriCool 120 front fan]
> Currently planning to reuse this unless for
> some reason it's not a good match for the
> above scheme.  If I chose to keep the current
> system intact and so needed to buy a new case
> for the new build I'd want to get another one
> of these; unfortunately it's no longer made,
> nor is its successor, the 330U, which put the
> power supply at the bottom of the case instead
> of the top.  There doesn't seem to be a
> comparable unit in the current CoolerMaster
> line, the closest one being perhaps the N400;
> it would largely depend on how many front
> panel drive bay exposures I'd end up needing
> (and it seems that those have been disappearing
> from the vast majority of all manufacturers'
> cases, not just CM's).  I could be persuaded
> to look at models similar to the 330(U) from
> other brands if anyone has a favourite out
> there I don't know about.
>
> So there we are.  If anyone has bothered to
> read this far and would like to chime in I'd
> welcome the input.

It's a shame in a way, that the motherboard industry has lost
sight of the customer base.

It's pretty hard to find a PCI slot on a motherboard. A
Tenth Gen board seems to have one. These are provided by
a bridge chip, rather than coming off the Southbridge directly.
(My older system uses one of those bridge chips and it is
seamless and fine stuff.)

The PCi slot would be for the reuse of your sound card. There is not
a lot of brand new tenth gen boards available (I see some refurbs).

BluRay movie playback, at HD 1920 likely doesn't have
as much in the way of playback requirements. At 4K resolution,
you need an Intel security processor, and that's on the
tenth generation, but not on later processors. Intel had
to pin that off, because there was an exploit for it. SGX.
I have to be really careful about what I say about a topic
like this, because there are so many ways to pin it off,
it could happen at any time.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/606310/the-newest-intel-cpus-give-4k-blu-rays-a-1080p-downgrade.html

AVX512 has been pinned off on some newer Intel processors,
after they left the factory. You can pin them off in microcode
(multiple delivery vehicles, including the OS). Chips leaving
the factory have that lasered off now. To work in the first
place, the CPU core had to be downclocked, while the AVX512 block
was being used (part of avoiding thermal and power issues).
AVX512 doesn't have a lot of uses, except when it's used on
some of the benchmarking charts to "win a prize". Note that
AMD is making AVX512 appear for the first time, on their Zen4,
but the instruction set may not be absolutely identical. And
there's a chance it won't have the same issues as the Intel one.

Summary: I see your situation this way

1) Keep existing system, complete with potential software/hardware
for doing MIDI and the like. Keep the 7600GT in the existing system.
The 7600GT is unlikely to have a Windows 11 quality of driver,
like a WDDM 3.0 driver. I think I had Windows 10 running on my
BFG 7900GT that I got for $65 when BFG closed up, so you could
likely go as far as Windows 10.

2) Buy new system as "fancy 5GHz calculator". It will be fast as
blazes. With the fetish for M.2 flash storage, you cannot but help
to win benchmark races and so on. Buy a K rather than a KF processor,
as the KF does not have an internal GPU. You can save money by using
a processor that on ark.intel.com, lists a GPU as being present. Do
not waste your money on overpriced video cards. You can use the HDMI
or DP video connectors on a number of motherboards on their I/O plate,
to be able to use the internal GPU on the Intel processor. I keep a
handful of DP to VGA and HDMI to VGA adapters so the motherboard GPU
can talk to a VGA monitor.

Because of the I/O starvation on modern motherboards, they're no longer
a good match for "doing stuff". You can't have a hobby with one. but
you can likely "browse like stink", and when the browser goes into
a loop and slows down, you can take comfort in the knowledge it is
burning up 228W while spinning in 5GHz circles :-) You can turn off
turbo, if you don't want the fans to spin up with the Intel trickery.

Did I mention this is not my favorite time line ? Could you tell ?
The M.2 sockets have made a mockery of motherboards. It caused a
lot of expansion slots to disappear, and makes it impossible
to reuse very nice PCI based kit. They could have put the M.2 on
carrier boards. The could have used vertical connectors for the
M.2 and come up with adapters to hold them in space. If you've ever
tried to install an M.2 (I own one), they're a pain in the ass
compared to the simplicity of sliding a SATA tray into a case
and cabling up. This is why my M.2 has spent 99% of its life,
in the little cardboard box it lives in.

Paul