In article <XEHKI.15055$6j.11687@fx04.iad>, Rabid Roach <rabid@roa.ch>
wrote:

> >>>> The "delta variant" is basically one that was created by those who chose
> >>>> to get "vaccinated" with a concoction that is likely to kill them. It is
> >>>> more contagious but also less potent.
> >>>
> >>> nonsense. not one word of that is even remotely correct.
> >>
> >> 1)
> >>
> >> <https://nypost.com/2021/07/08/dont-buy-the-hysteria-the-delta-variant-is-a
> >> ctu
> >> ally-less-dangerous/>
> >
> > that's an opinion piece. it's not authored by a physician nor does it
> > reference any clinical studies.
> >
> > also, the ny post is not a credible source. they used a reference to
> > shingles as a side effect of covid vaccines to try to make it look bad.
>
> Similarly, what you just wrote is an opinion.

what i wrote is based on current medical knowledge about covid, backed
up by numerous clinical tests and research, and viruses in general.

your claim that the delta variant was 'created' by those who were
vaccinated is laughably wrong and shows a deep lack of understanding of
basic biology, let alone medicine. it's not how anything works.

you also failed to provide evidence that any of the covid vaccines
(there are several) 'is likely to kill' those who take it.

the reality is the opposite. the vaccines are very safe. the danger is
*not* getting vaccinated, which is likely to result in illness or
death, and for more than just the person refusing to be vaccinated.

> However, I'd like for you
> to argue with German health experts since you're knowledgeable about
> everything under the sun. I'm sure that they know much less than you do.
>
> <https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/german-health-experts-be
> lieve-delta-variant-not-more-dangerous-than-others/>

another fluff piece and a logical fallacy.

you don't even understand what you're reading.

*your* link confirms the delta variant is more contagious, which alone
makes it more dangerous if everything else was the same (which it
isn't). to then claim it's not as dangerous is contradictory.

delta is roughly twice as likely to transmit to another host, so even
if it's less virulent (which it isn't), the net effect is worse.

as it turns out, delta is *more* virulent, being twice as likely to
result in hospitalization.
<https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)0135
8-1/fulltext>
In summary, we show that the Delta VOC in Scotland was found mainly
in younger, more affluent groups. Risk of COVID-19 hospital admission
was approximately doubled in those with the Delta VOC when compared
to the Alpha VOC, with risk of admission particularly increased in
those with five or more relevant comorbidities.

<https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/the-danger-of-the-delta-vari
ant/>
Delta¹s greater virulence means that unvaccinated people who become
infected will be sicker and the burden on the health care system will
be greater. Evidence suggests, for example, that an unvaccinated
person with Delta infection is roughly twice as likely to require
hospital treatment than a person infected with the previously
dominant variant.

the delta variant has also been linked to new symptoms not seen with
other variants:
<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-07/gangrene-hearing-los
s-point-to-delta-variant-being-more-severe>
Hearing impairment, severe gastric upsets and blood clots leading
to gangrene, symptoms not typically seen in Covid patients, have
been linked by doctors in India to the so-called delta variant. In
England and Scotland, early evidence suggests the strain -- which is
also now dominant there -- carries a higher risk of hospitalization.

tl;dr - the delta variant is worse.

> >>
> >> <https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/why-is-the-delta-variant-so-much-more-
> >> co
> >> ntagious/ss-AAMrajt>
> >
> > they're correct that it's more contagious, which is a significant
> > problem.
>
> A stomach flu is more contagious than that. Should we be worried about
> that too and shut down our entire economy, impoverishing millions and
> starving out others because someone might start taking a few dozen dumps
> a day and vomiting?

covid and stomach flu, aka norovirus, are two wildly different things.

trying to compare them shows just how little you understand about
either one.

norovirus outbreaks *do* cause shutdowns, and it's quite common too.

see below for numerous examples. there were so many that i stopped
listing them.

you fail to understand that covid is a pandemic, with *significantly*
more cases and deaths than norovirus, and why measures to control its
spread need to be stronger.

as of right now, there have been more than 35 million covid cases, more
than 625,000 deaths, with ~5 million currently active cases.

norovirus is a tiny fraction of that, at about 900 deaths per *year* in
the usa.

at covid's peak last january, there were ~4500 deaths *per* *day* in
the usa.

five times as many covid deaths in one day than norovirus has in an
entire year.

the math is very simple.

and death isn't the only bad outcome. in addition to being sick for
days or weeks, there's also long term covid.

norovirus is normally over in a few days with no lingering symptoms,
whereas a substantial number of those who got covid and recovered have
long term issues to varying degrees.

<https://www.denverpost.com/2019/11/20/mesa-county-schools-stomach-flu-n
orovirus/>
In an unprecedented move, all 46 Mesa County schools will close
Thursday and Friday as two highly contagious viruses continue to
sicken hundreds of staff and students.

The closure means that the district¹s approximately 22,000 students
won¹t return to class until Dec. 2 because the schools are closed the
entire week of Thanksgiving.

<https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-school-closes-after-100-student
s-staff-call-out-sick-with-suspected-norovirus>
SEATTLE -- More than 100 students and staff at a Seattle public
school were reported as sick Thursday in an apparent outbreak of
norovirus.

Leschi Elementary School will be closed Friday. The building will
undergo a cleaning by the school's custodial staff. No staff or
students can be in the building, under order of Public Health --
Seattle & King County.

<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/norovirus-norwalk-babson-col
lege-flu/>
An outbreak of stomach flu believed to be caused by norovirus has
prompted a temporary shutdown of Babson College, a small business
college and graduate school in Babson Park, Mass. School officials
announced that classes, meetings, athletic events and all other
activities would be canceled until Wednesday, when the school is
expected to have the outbreak under control.

<https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-norovirus-chipotle-simi-va
lley-illness-20150904-story.html>
Officials believe that an outbreak of norovirus is responsible for
sickening dozens of patrons at a Ventura County Chipotle restaurant
earlier this month.
....
Managers shut down the restaurant Friday, Aug. 21, threw out all
remaining food and disinfected all surfaces, according to health
officials. It reopened the next morning, health officials say, but
managers told the 18 employees who had been sickened to stay
home.

<https://www.cbsnews.com/news/stomach-virus-shutters-greater-albany-scho
ol-district-oregon-2019-11-25/>
The rapid spread of a stomach virus through the Greater Albany
School District has forced the closure of all schools in the district
for the rest of the week. The closure comes days after a Colorado
school district of about 22,000 students was forced to close after a
similar viral outbreak tore through its 46 schools.

<https://abcnews.go.com/US/chicago-school-shutters-800-kids-50-staff-ill
/story?id=44700163>
A Chicago high school shut down for a second day Wednesday after a
suspected outbreak of norovirus sickened some 800 students and 50
staff, school officials said.
....
The St. Charles East High School is home to about 2,500 students and
100 staff, many of whom reported telltale signs of the virus, which
include diarrhea, throwing up, nausea and stomach pain, according to
officials.

<https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2019/05/16/norovirus-outbrea
k-vancouver-hotel-100-people-infected-canada/3695872002/>
The Sheraton Vancouver Airport Hotel was forced to shut down after
more than 100 people got sick with what health officials believe to
be norovirus over the weekend.

<https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/illinois-arbys-restaurant-linked-to-n
early-100-norovirus-cases>
An Illinois Arby¹s restaurant temporarily closed this week after
nearly 100 people were sickened after eating there.

<https://www.sj-r.com/story/news/2021/03/11/springfield-il-arbys-linked-
nearly-100-cases-food-poisoning/6951930002/>
A Springfield fast food restaurant has voluntarily closed after
nearly 100 people reportedly have gotten sick after eating there.
....
The store was previously shuttered for a day Feb. 20 because of a
similar outbreak. 

<https://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/trends-outbreaks/burden-US.html>
Each year, on average in the United States, norovirus causes:
€ 900 deaths, mostly among adults aged 65 and older
€ 109,000 hospitalizations

<https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6930e1.htm?s_cid=mm6930e1_w>
In a multistate telephone survey of symptomatic adults who had a
positive outpatient test result for SARS-CoV-2 infection, 35% had not
returned to their usual state of health when interviewed 2­3 weeks
after testing. Among persons aged 18­34 years with no chronic
medical conditions, one in five had not returned to their usual state
of health.

<https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/cor
onavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351>
€ Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19
have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who
experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the
risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
€ Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can
cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the
lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing
problems.
€ Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures
and Guillain-Barre syndrome ‹ a condition that causes temporary
paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing
Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.

<https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavi
rus/covid-long-haulers-long-term-effects-of-covid19>
Mild or moderate COVID-19 lasts about two weeks for most people.
But others experience lingering health problems even when they have
recovered from the acute phase of the illness.

In such patients, there is no longer live coronavirus running amok
in the body. If tested, the person would test negative for the
coronavirus, but they might be severely debilitated nonetheless.
....
But what¹s curious is that it seems post-COVID-19 syndrome is
not just afflicting people who were very sick with the coronavirus.
³Patients who were never severely ill are coming to clinic and saying
that their lives are different now,² Brigham says.

> >> From abc.net.au at
> >>
> >>
> >> <https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-02/delta-coronavirus-variant-symptoms-
> >> vac
> >> cines-spread/100255804>
> >>
> >> "Is the Delta variant more deadly?
> >> Because the variant is so new, research into it is in early days.
> >>
> >> But Professor Turville said so far, mortality rates data looked promising.
> >>
> >> "Looking at the 28-day follow up after infection, the death rate for the
> >> original variants was 1.9 per cent mortality," he said.
> >>
> >> "So far the Delta variant is showing 0.3 per cent mortality.
> >>
> >> "That's super encouraging. The early signs look promising, but it is too
> >> early to be definitive.""
> >
> > that's all speculation.
> >
> > as he said 'it is too early to be definitive'. not exactly a good
> > reference.
> >
> > more importantly, mortality is not the only negative outcome.
> >
> > many people will be hospitalized, and while they eventually recover, it
> > can take weeks. some will have a milder case and recover at home, but
> > they'll still feel like shit and miss work.
> >
> > roughly one-third of people will have long-term covid, with symptoms
> > continuing for weeks, if not months afterwards.
> >
> > covid also affects the brain:
> > <https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v1>
> > ...We used structural and functional brain scans from before and
> > after infection, to compare longitudinal brain changes between these
> > 394 COVID-19 patients and 388 controls who were matched for age,
> > sex, ethnicity and interval between scans. We identified significant
> > effects of COVID-19 in the brain with a loss of grey matter in the
> > left parahippocampal gyrus, the left lateral orbitofrontal cortex and
> > the left insula.
> >
> > and given that the delta variant is more contagious, one person can
> > easily bring it home to an entire family, any one of whom could get
> > *seriously* ill and die.
>
> Sure, that must be why most of us don't know anyone who got it, got
> seriously sick or died. My father-in-law is the only person I know of
> who actually knows someone who got it. He actually knows two: both of
> them recovered but were sick for a while. It's so contagious that you
> have to dig and dig to find someone who actually got affected.

no digging required.

in the usa alone, there have been roughly 35 million cases of covid in
the past 1.5 years, out of 330 million people.

that's roughly 11% of the population, or about one out of every nine
people.

> Myself, I work around people of varying degrees of hygiene during the
> whole year. Despite people supposedly getting infected even this year,
> everyone survived and I somehow managed not to get infected despite
> making no effort to socially distance, wash my hands or wear a mask.

consider yourself incredibly lucky, assuming that's even remotely true.

> Let's face it: the pandemic is a lie currently being used to prepare us
> for something far worse. Not only that, but it seems to be in line with
> what they're detailed in their Agenda 2030 plans.

utter nonsense.

> Similarly, everything
> that we've experienced so far is identical to what was detailed in a
> friggin' cartoon from 100 years ago:
>
> <https://tv.gab.com/channel/r04ch/view/100-year-old-cartoon-predicts-2020-60fa
> dabd1d9359f97e4d207a>

nonsense.

> >> As for the delta variant having been created by the vaccinated, notice
> >> the numbers of _vaccinated_ infected versus unvaccinated.
> >
> > the delta variant appeared in *unvaccinated* people, as do other
> > variants (and not just covid either, but all viruses).
> >
> > <https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210513/over-_99-
> > percent-hospitalized-2021-covid-patients-unvaccinated>
> > May 13, 2021 -- A new study found that more than 99% of patients
> > hospitalized with COVID-19 during the first four months of 2021
> > weren1t fully vaccinated.
> >
> > The Cleveland Clinic, which released the data on Tuesday, also found
> > that the mRNA vaccines created by Pfizer and Moderna were more than
> > 96% effective in protecting against COVID-19 infection.
> >
> > it's quite difficult for a virus to mutate in a host full of antibodies
> > fighting it off.
>
> WebMD, how authoritative.

very much so.

however, if you don't like webmd for whatever bogus reason, there are
many other sources that corroborate the same numbers, or just study
biology or virology.

viruses mutate when they reproduce, which happens in *unvaccinated*
people.

your bogus claim that the delta variant was created by vaccinated
people is wrong.

> It's absolutely stunning that they've never been able to successfully
> develop a vaccine for the flu

yes they have.

> yet suddenly have a fool-proof way of
> defending people from COVID-19.

straw man.

nobody claimed covid vaccines are foolproof, or anything else, for that
matter.

you're wrong yet again. you really don't understand any this stuff, do
you?

the fact is that those who have had a covid vaccine are significantly
less likely to get covid than those who have not, and in the event
there's a breakthrough case (nothing is perfect), it will be less
severe than it otherwise would have been (although not necessarily
'mild').

this is basic common sense, no medical background needed, although it's
clearly supported by extensive data.

> I have to admit that I am not as willing
> and able to suspend reality as you are in believing that any of what
> we're being told is true, especially as people are dying from the vaccine.

reality contradicts the bullshit you write.

almost nobody has died from covid vaccines (plural, there are several,
not just one, as you incorrectly claim).

meanwhile, millions of people died from covid.

for you to believe even a fraction of what you write, you would have
had to suspend reality. it's *bullshit*.