https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/ms-dos-and-windows-311-
still-run-train-dashboards-at-german-railway-company-listed-admin-job-
for-30-year-old-operating-system

"A German railway firm posted a vacancy for a Windows 3.11 Administrator
just before the weekend. In addition to skills in wrangling Windows for
Workgroups on the 30-year-old operating system, the recruiter would look
upon a candidate more fondly for possessing MS-DOS experience. "

Anybody looking for work?

Would you entrust mission-critical business systems to obsolete,
unsupported software?

What about mission-critical business systems with safety implications?

On 1/30/2024 3:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
> https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/ms-dos-and-windows-311-
> still-run-train-dashboards-at-german-railway-company-listed-admin-job-
> for-30-year-old-operating-system
>
> "A German railway firm posted a vacancy for a Windows 3.11 Administrator
> just before the weekend. In addition to skills in wrangling Windows for
> Workgroups on the 30-year-old operating system, the recruiter would look
> upon a candidate more fondly for possessing MS-DOS experience. "

Wow. That's pathetic. Note to self: When in Germany, do not take a
train anywhere.

On 1/30/2024 5:01 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Would you entrust mission-critical business systems to obsolete,
> unsupported software?
>
> What about mission-critical business systems with safety implications?

It's probably just for payroll processing or something.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.

Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
they?

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.

https://www.techspot.com/news/101683-german-railway-seeks-admin-manage-ms-
dos-windows.html

"Tom's Hardware learned that candidates would oversee machines running 166
MHz processors with 8 MB of RAM, which are used to display important
technical train data to operators in real-time."

https://windowsreport.com/windows-3-1-german-railway/

That one has an alleged screenshot.

"The driver's cab display sysyem on high-speed and regional trains shows
the driver the most important technical data in real time"

Like the coal train approaching on the same track?

On 1/30/2024 9:08 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.
>
> Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
> they?

Why not?

If you mean security stuff, don't use internet.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:24:13 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> On 1/30/2024 9:08 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>
>>> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.
>>
>> Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
>> they?
>
> Why not?

Because the typical Windows user would do it with some VBA script running
on an Excel spreadsheet.

“Oh no, our IT person is a real wizard. Our VBA script is using Access!”

On 1/31/2024 1:29 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Because the typical Windows user would do it with some VBA script running
> on an Excel spreadsheet.

So... what's wrong with that?

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 01:38:55 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> On 1/31/2024 1:29 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Because the typical Windows user would do it with some VBA script
>> running on an Excel spreadsheet.
>
> So... what's wrong with that?

Do you really have to ask?
<https://theconversation.com/spreadsheet-errors-can-have-disastrous-consequences-yet-we-keep-making-the-same-mistakes-219356>

On 2024-01-30 10:08 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.
>
> Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
> they?

They would. I guess they're insured.

--
RabidPedagog
Catholic paleoconservative
Linux Mint patron

On 1/31/2024 2:29 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:24:13 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> On 1/30/2024 9:08 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.
>>>
>>> Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
>>> they?

In the not too distant past, I'd bet 90%+ did.

Nowadays, medium to large companies very likely use some dedicated
payroll processing online system. Small companies probably use Excel or
maybe a local Windows package.

>> Why not?
>
> Because the typical Windows user would do it with some VBA script running
> on an Excel spreadsheet.
>
> “Oh no, our IT person is a real wizard. Our VBA script is using Access!”

I sense sarcasm (because ignorance abounds among GuhNoo "advocates"),
but if the IT person knows what they're doing, MS Office, Excel, Access
and VBA is a great solution for many, many corporate systems.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:35:56 -0500, RabidPedagog wrote:

> On 2024-01-30 10:08 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>
>>> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.
>>
>> Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
>> they?
>
> They would. I guess they're insured.

I wonder how you can continue to get insurance for ongoing known-dangerous
behaviour?

On 1/31/2024 4:30 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:35:56 -0500, RabidPedagog wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-30 10:08 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.
>>>
>>> Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
>>> they?
>>
>> They would. I guess they're insured.
>
> I wonder how you can continue to get insurance for ongoing known-dangerous
> behaviour?

In the case of running Linux, you can't. You just have to suffer with
the time-cost and anxiety of using it.

Like RonB said: "It took me years to get over worrying that an update
would wreck something in Linux."

I NEVER felt that about Windows Updates. I knew they would be slow, but
not destructive.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:33:33 -0500, DFS wrote:

> I NEVER felt that about Windows Updates. I knew they would be slow, but
> not destructive.

Really??

<https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/24/windows_10_patch_issues/>
<https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/17/windows_server_2022_patch_breaks/>
<https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/12/microsoft_update_for_bitlocker_vuln/>

And that was just from the first page of hits from searching for
“windows update” (not even searching for bugs).

Note also that’s just from the last 3 weeks.

On 1/31/2024 2:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 01:38:55 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> On 1/31/2024 1:29 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Because the typical Windows user would do it with some VBA script
>>> running on an Excel spreadsheet.
>>
>> So... what's wrong with that?
>
> Do you really have to ask?
> <https://theconversation.com/spreadsheet-errors-can-have-disastrous-consequences-yet-we-keep-making-the-same-mistakes-219356>

But any error can have disastrous consequences.

Some years back one of your would be scientific satellites dived soon
after launch into ground because somebody mistook a number that was in
SI units with the English units. Just one error one time in that entire
project destroyed scores of eager scientists' immediate future jobs.

If a "spreadsheet" fucked something up, some Bozo fucked it up not the
spreadsheet. "Do you really have to have this mentioned to you?" :)
Hehe :)

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:11:03 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> On 1/31/2024 2:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 01:38:55 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/31/2024 1:29 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Because the typical Windows user would do it with some VBA script
>>>> running on an Excel spreadsheet.
>>>
>>> So... what's wrong with that?
>>
>> Do you really have to ask?
>> <https://theconversation.com/spreadsheet-errors-can-have-disastrous-consequences-yet-we-keep-making-the-same-mistakes-219356>
>
>
> But any error can have disastrous consequences.

Some problematic tools are more prone to particular kinds of errors
than others. For example, Microsoft Excel. The smart person, after
they have been burned a few times, will learn to stay away from that
particular fire.

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1008984

On 2024-01-31 17:33, DFS wrote:
> On 1/31/2024 4:30 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:35:56 -0500, RabidPedagog wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-01-30 10:08 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:40:54 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's probably just for payroll processing or something.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody would be dumb enough to run payroll on a Windows system, would
>>>> they?
>>>
>>> They would. I guess they're insured.
>>
>> I wonder how you can continue to get insurance for ongoing
>> known-dangerous
>> behaviour?
>
>
> In the case of running Linux, you can't.  You just have to suffer with
> the time-cost and anxiety of using it.
>
> Like RonB said: "It took me years to get over worrying that an update
> would wreck something in Linux."
>
> I NEVER felt that about Windows Updates.  I knew they would be slow, but
> not destructive.

I've already had a few Windows 11 updates which made my laptop
unbootable. Saying they're not destructive is an utter lie considering
how many reports there are on the web of people getting the same issue
as I did and with a variety of updates. It would be trivial to find
evidence of this on any search engine.

--
RabidPedagog
Catholic paleoconservative
Linux Mint patron

On 2024-01-31 18:10, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:33:33 -0500, DFS wrote:
>
>> I NEVER felt that about Windows Updates. I knew they would be slow, but
>> not destructive.
>
> Really??
>
> <https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/24/windows_10_patch_issues/>
> <https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/17/windows_server_2022_patch_breaks/>
> <https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/12/microsoft_update_for_bitlocker_vuln/>
>
> And that was just from the first page of hits from searching for
> “windows update” (not even searching for bugs).
>
> Note also that’s just from the last 3 weeks.

+1

So far, only MacOS seems to resist this crap on my end. Even back in the
early 2000s, I can't recall a Mac update ever causing any kind of
serious issue.

--
RabidPedagog
Catholic paleoconservative
Linux Mint patron

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:23:35 -0500, DFS wrote:

> Nowadays, medium to large companies very likely use some dedicated
> payroll processing online system. Small companies probably use Excel or
> maybe a local Windows package.

We went to Insperity a couple of years ago.

https://www.insperity.com/

They pretty much handle everything, punching in and out, payroll, PT,
vacation time, and so forth. I have no idea what HR was using prior to
that. Maybe paper and pencil. It took years before they could wrap their
heads around direct deposit.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 20:08:39 -0500, RabidPedagog wrote:

> Even back in the early 2000s, I can't recall a Mac update ever causing
> any kind of serious issue.

macOS 10.15 “Catalina” comes to mind, not that far back
<https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/27/apple_catalina_update/>:

The first spin of Catalina, officially released in October 2019,
was a mess. ... The biggest issue was that all kinds of apps simply
stopped working. ... Peripherals like mice, keyboards and printers
stopped working. Email went missing; iCloud backups failed; users
were constantly harassed by login requests; updates didn’t update
...

...

So came for the first update to its new system one week after the
main launch which fixed some, but not all, of the issues.

...

Version two came in December 2019 and fixed some of those issues,
but not all.

...

More bug fixes came with version three in January 2020, but the OS
seemed to have finally stabilized; something that was then
spectacularly undone with version .4.

...

Then we had the “supplemental update” to version 10.15.4, which
fixed some, but not all, of the problems – most significantly the
problem with Finder and transferring large files. And, amazingly,
appeared to undo the good work that had been done with website
security and broke SSH for some users. But now, with version
point-five this week, that problem appears to have been sorted and,
of course, your battery might last longer too.

On 1/31/2024 6:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> For example, Microsoft Excel. The smart person, after
> they have been burned a few times, will learn to stay away from that
> particular fire.

And use what instead?

On 2024-02-01, RabidPedagog <rabid@pedag.og> wrote:
> On 2024-01-31 18:10, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:33:33 -0500, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> I NEVER felt that about Windows Updates. I knew they would be slow, but
>>> not destructive.
>>
>> Really??
>>
>> <https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/24/windows_10_patch_issues/>
>> <https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/17/windows_server_2022_patch_breaks/>
>> <https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/12/microsoft_update_for_bitlocker_vuln/>
>>
>> And that was just from the first page of hits from searching for
>> “windows update” (not even searching for bugs).
>>
>> Note also that’s just from the last 3 weeks.
>
> +1
>
> So far, only MacOS seems to resist this crap on my end. Even back in the
> early 2000s, I can't recall a Mac update ever causing any kind of
> serious issue.

I've never had any update issues in Linux. The couple times I've updated my
old Macs everything seemed to go smoothly (though it took much longer than
Linux updates).

--
"Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good."
-- Archbishop Charles J. Chaput

Physfitfreak wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 1/31/2024 6:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> For example, Microsoft Excel. The smart person, after
>> they have been burned a few times, will learn to stay away from that
>> particular fire.
>
> And use what instead?

A proven numerical app, preferably narrow in focus (for ease in comprehensive
testing). Oh, and there should be a public set of test vectors that anyone can
use to verify the app's calculations. One shouldn't have to depend up "the
internet" to learn of these errors.

No scientist should be using Excel except for preliminary seat-of-the-pants /
napkin calculations, or administering the project money. Even then.....

--
The smallest worm will turn being trodden on.
-- William Shakespeare, "Henry VI"

On 2024-01-31 9:58 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 20:08:39 -0500, RabidPedagog wrote:
>
>> Even back in the early 2000s, I can't recall a Mac update ever causing
>> any kind of serious issue.
>
> macOS 10.15 “Catalina” comes to mind, not that far back
> <https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/27/apple_catalina_update/>:
>
> The first spin of Catalina, officially released in October 2019,
> was a mess. ... The biggest issue was that all kinds of apps simply
> stopped working. ... Peripherals like mice, keyboards and printers
> stopped working. Email went missing; iCloud backups failed; users
> were constantly harassed by login requests; updates didn’t update
> ...
>
> ...
>
> So came for the first update to its new system one week after the
> main launch which fixed some, but not all, of the issues.
>
> ...
>
> Version two came in December 2019 and fixed some of those issues,
> but not all.
>
> ...
>
> More bug fixes came with version three in January 2020, but the OS
> seemed to have finally stabilized; something that was then
> spectacularly undone with version .4.
>
> ...
>
> Then we had the “supplemental update” to version 10.15.4, which
> fixed some, but not all, of the problems – most significantly the
> problem with Finder and transferring large files. And, amazingly,
> appeared to undo the good work that had been done with website
> security and broke SSH for some users. But now, with version
> point-five this week, that problem appears to have been sorted and,
> of course, your battery might last longer too.

Admittedly, I didn't use Macs between 2005 and 2023 when I got the one
I'm currently using. I guess I avoided a very serious problem. I'll say
this much: such problems remind me that whatever issues I might get with
Mint, they are rather minimal in comparison to what Windows and MacOS
can offer me. Still, I have yet to face such horrible problems myself on
MacOS.

--
RabidPedagog
Catholic paleoconservative
Linux Mint patron