Scanning Amazon for "x86 single board computers" I got :

youyeetoo X1 - x86 Windows Linux Single Board Computer with Intel
Celeron N5105 - Mini PC $119 (bare board)

WayPonDEV youyeetoo X1 X86 Single Board Computer - A 64bit Windows
10/11/Linux Mini PC $119 (looks a lot like the above)

Beelink Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N95(up to 3.4GHz),
8GB DDR4 RAM 256GB PCIe 1X SSD, Mini $179 (boxed)

C-Box-M2 Mini PC Aluminum Body 11th gen Intel N5105,
Windows 11 Pro, 8GB RAM 256G SSD, $129 (boxed)

NVIDIA Jetson Nano Developer Kit
$149 (bare board)

N40 Mini PC Fanless Celeron N4020 (up to 2.8GHz) with 4GB
DDR4/64GB eMMC RAM Mini Desktop $109 (boxed)

And others ......

Price/performance-wise, these are all good competitors
for the Pi5. Small, fairly powerful, the x86 ones will
run Winders if you're dumb enough (don't expect vast
performance however).

There's a problem here for Pi fans ... that niche is
now getting crowded. ARM chips are fine, but many
of the Intel chips offer plenty of power AND potential
WindersStuff compatibility.

Something like the Pi-Zero 2W & Pi-3/4 still have a
relatively open niche. They are not intended to compete
with more 'real' PCs, but are 'powerful/cheap enough' for a
lot of applications. Alas RPI has put a lot of money/effort
into something which is just an also-ran ... one of many
'minimal PCs'. Did they waste their money ? Will they be
in biz a year or two from now ? The NAME is attractive,
but that only goes just so far.

Just sayin' ...

On 18/12/2023 02:09, 56g.1173 wrote:
> There's a problem here for Pi fans ... that niche is
> now getting crowded. ARM chips are fine, but many
> of the Intel chips offer plenty of power AND potential
> WindersStuff compatibility.
>
> Something like the Pi-Zero 2W & Pi-3/4 still have a
> relatively open niche. They are not intended to compete
> with more 'real' PCs, but are 'powerful/cheap enough' for a
> lot of applications. Alas RPI has put a lot of money/effort
> into something which is just an also-ran ... one of many
> 'minimal PCs'. Did they waste their money ? Will they be
> in biz a year or two from now ? The NAME is attractive,
> but that only goes just so far.
>
> Just sayin' ...

No other ARM board comes close to having as much support.

A cheaper or more powerful ARM board where the OS never gets updates
and/or that has features that simply never work right is not an
alternative to a Pi.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 12/18/23 02:09, 56g.1173 wrote:
> Scanning Amazon for "x86 single board computers" I got :
>
> youyeetoo X1 - x86 Windows Linux Single Board Computer with Intel
> Celeron N5105 - Mini PC   $119   (bare board)
>
> WayPonDEV youyeetoo X1 X86 Single Board Computer - A 64bit Windows
> 10/11/Linux Mini PC  $119  (looks a lot like the above)
>
> Beelink Mini PC, Intel 12th Gen Alder Lake- N95(up to 3.4GHz),
> 8GB DDR4 RAM 256GB PCIe 1X SSD, Mini   $179  (boxed)
>
> C-Box-M2 Mini PC Aluminum Body 11th gen Intel N5105,
> Windows 11 Pro, 8GB RAM 256G SSD,  $129  (boxed)
>
> NVIDIA Jetson Nano Developer Kit
> $149  (bare board)
>
> N40 Mini PC Fanless Celeron N4020 (up to 2.8GHz) with 4GB
> DDR4/64GB eMMC RAM Mini Desktop  $109  (boxed)
>
> And others ......
>
> Price/performance-wise, these are all good competitors
> for the Pi5. Small, fairly powerful, the x86 ones will
> run Winders if you're dumb enough (don't expect vast
> performance however).
>
> There's a problem here for Pi fans ... that niche is
> now getting crowded. ARM chips are fine, but many
> of the Intel chips offer plenty of power AND potential
> WindersStuff compatibility.
>

In 2014 I bought an AMD Kabini 5350 CPU x86 + Motherboard for about £50.
The same price as the rPi. The AMD Kabini was massively faster than the
rPi, about level with the rPi4 which came out 5 years later.

Intel/AMD will lower prices to compete with the rPi5 or rk3558 SoC
systems. Now, the x86 N95 is about level performance with the rk3558s
based oPi5.

> Something like the Pi-Zero 2W & Pi-3/4 still have a
> relatively open niche. They are not intended to compete
> with more 'real' PCs, but are 'powerful/cheap enough' for a
> lot of applications. Alas RPI has put a lot of money/effort
> into something which is just an also-ran ... one of many
> 'minimal PCs'. Did they waste their money ? Will they be
> in biz a year or two from now ? The NAME is attractive,
> but that only goes just so far.
>
> Just sayin' ...

The rPi5 is a real PC. If it gets proper GPU drivers, the oPi5 will be
even better. The Apple M1 SoC is going head to head with intel 86 PCs.

So rather than the rPi becoming an also-ran, they, or small Arm SoC
systems like them, look to be the future.

Try the rPi5, it is good. Pi OS is good. I've been looking at Unix like
Windows PC alternatives since Sun Sparcs in the early 90s, I'm more
impressed now, than I have ever been in the past.

On 12/18/23 02:18, Brian Gregory wrote:

>
> No other ARM board comes close to having as much support.
>
> A cheaper or more powerful ARM board where the OS never gets updates
> and/or that has features that simply never work right is not an
> alternative to a Pi.
>

This is true at the moment with the Orange Pi 5, but there are promises
of new GPU drivers such as Panthor being released which might change this.

<https://www.phoronix.com/news/Panthor-DRM-Newer-Mali>

Il 18/12/2023 03:09, 56g.1173 ha scritto:

>
> Price/performance-wise, these are all good competitors
> for the Pi5. Small, fairly powerful, the x86 ones will
> run Winders if you're dumb enough (don't expect vast
> performance however).

Are you saying for use as a desktop pc?

because you would have to consider the relationship between power and
performance and especially the wattage consumed to get that power and
performance...

I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:

power/performance/consumption still very favorable compared to the X86s
you linked...

you might also consider the ratio of expressible to usable power, and in
this case ARMs are better than X86s

On 18/12/2023 12:40, Pancho wrote:
> So rather than the rPi becoming an also-ran, they, or small Arm SoC
> systems like them, look to be the future.
>
I think that is the case.
My friend, who used to work for ARM simply said 'we had no money to make
a big chip, so we made a small one, we kept its simple and worked hard
on a comprehensive instruction set, and gave it lots of registers so
that most instrictions were very fast and in-chip. It was streets ahead
of an 8080.

> Try the rPi5, it is good. Pi OS is good. I've been looking at Unix like
> Windows PC alternatives since Sun Sparcs in the early 90s, I'm more
> impressed now, than I have ever been in the past.

I am finally abandoning Intel slowly device by device. This PC will
probably be the last device as I need to run legacy XP and programs in a VM.

--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
> I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:
> power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
> X86s

And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of
ownership including electricity costs.

What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and
support, rather than performance.

--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 18/12/2023 17:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I am finally abandoning Intel slowly device by device. This PC will
> probably be the last device as I need to run legacy XP and programs in a VM.

I'm happily running Windows programs on the Twister OS, on a Raspberry Pi 400.

Worth a look. The program (PlanePlotter) uses network IO and no special devices.
--
Cheers,
David
Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

On 12/18/23 7:44 AM, Pancho wrote:
> On 12/18/23 02:18, Brian Gregory wrote:
>
>>
>> No other ARM board comes close to having as much support.
>>
>> A cheaper or more powerful ARM board where the OS never gets updates
>> and/or that has features that simply never work right is not an
>> alternative to a Pi.
>>
>
> This is true at the moment with the Orange Pi 5, but there are promises
> of new GPU drivers such as Panthor being released which might change this.
>
> <https://www.phoronix.com/news/Panthor-DRM-Newer-Mali>

I have a Banana Pi ... it has some "issues". Still managed
to get it to do one useful thing properly though. Figuring
out what was the proper OS image to use was also difficult.

"Orange" seems a bit better. Alas, like Banana, the older
versions didn't even have proper wi-fi.

In any case, I'm talking about MARKETS. The "PI" name is
big, but if P5s really don't offer much over x86 rivals
in terms of performance/price then people WILL go elsewhere.
My concern is that they spent all that money/effort for
a product that belongs in an already-crowded niche.

Been looking at P5s ... but I really may BUY a BeeLink
because it's the same price, similar/better performance,
and offers more software possibilities. Comes in a
nice box too .......

See my point ?

Il 18/12/2023 18:45, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
> On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
>> I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:
>> power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
>> X86s
>
> And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of
> ownership including electricity costs.
>
> What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and
> support, rather than performance.
>
>

yes the support, the wide support of the Pis, is very actractive because
of intrinsecal quality and expandability (of the support)

GMG <EJIJG@scubatin.it> wrote:
> Il 18/12/2023 18:45, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
> > On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
> >> I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:
> >> power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
> >> X86s
> >
> > And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of
> > ownership including electricity costs.
> >
> > What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and
> > support, rather than performance.
> >
> >
>
> yes the support, the wide support of the Pis, is very actractive because
> of intrinsecal quality and expandability (of the support)

It's one of the reasons I will stay with Pis. I'm actually moving
from a Beaglebone Black to a Pi 4 for one application just at the
moment. I'm not interested in using my Pis as desktop machines. My
'work' machines (as in systems with a keyboard and screen, for writing
programs, for using my browser, for sending E-Mail, etc.) are x86
based but, more important, they come as integrated boxes with space
for multiple disk drives, card readers and so on. Making a Pi into
such a system is 'messy' IMHO.

--
Chris Green
·

On 12/19/23 4:32 AM, Chris Green wrote:
> GMG <EJIJG@scubatin.it> wrote:
>> Il 18/12/2023 18:45, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
>>> On 18/12/2023 17:30, GMG wrote:
>>>> I think raspberries, even the new Pi 5, have a ratio:
>>>> power/performance/consumption still very favourable compared to the
>>>> X86s
>>>
>>> And that is what is driving the ARM revolution right now. Total cost of
>>> ownership including electricity costs.
>>>
>>> What is driving the Pi against other ARM platforms seems to be cost and
>>> support, rather than performance.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> yes the support, the wide support of the Pis, is very actractive because
>> of intrinsecal quality and expandability (of the support)
>
> It's one of the reasons I will stay with Pis. I'm actually moving
> from a Beaglebone Black to a Pi 4 for one application just at the
> moment. I'm not interested in using my Pis as desktop machines. My
> 'work' machines (as in systems with a keyboard and screen, for writing
> programs, for using my browser, for sending E-Mail, etc.) are x86
> based but, more important, they come as integrated boxes with space
> for multiple disk drives, card readers and so on. Making a Pi into
> such a system is 'messy' IMHO.

BBBs are very good - for what they're meant for. I will
not say anything bad about them. I'm building a home
security system around a BBB - with an Ard aux to deal
with various inputs. MIGHT sub a Pi for the BBB, but
so far I see little advantage.

PI, so far, has been pretty stable and CAPABLE. Likely
it will STAY that way.

The PROBLEM is not so much 'tech' - it's BIZ.

With the Pi5 they have invested LOTS of money/effort
to create a board that is in a sphere with a LOT
of competition price/capability-wise. Somewhere I
listed a number of x86 mini-boards/systems that are
PRICE/PERFORMANCE-competitive with the Pi5. The
low-end "BeeLink" is maybe the greatest competitor
at this moment. I will likely buy one - BEFORE I
buy a Pi5.

Yes, UK residents can get PIs cheaper - but that's
not true for the rest of the world. Price a Pi5 on
US Amazon and see .... NOT "cheap". Same applied
to Pi4's ......

My concern is that RPi-Inc may have murdered itself.