In article <8L2dnVbnC4z3nNb4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>, 56d.1152
<56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

....
> The "credit-card" profile of the PIs has always been
> a big plus. The (relatively) low power required has
> also been a plus. The low(er) PRICE has always been
> a plus. As I said, they fill a *niche* quite nicely.
>
> But their AMBITIONS seem to aim towards leaving that
> safe and useful niche ...... and it'll kill them.

We had a resurrected Maker Faire near me last month after a few-year
hiatus. The Raspberry Pi guys had a booth and were happy to discuss the
RPi-5 product... and to give away mousepads.

I asked about their plans for product evolution. They said they were
planning to continue growing performance without leaving behind
existing customers -- by continuing to offer existing products.

I thought this was pretty clever. Assumes they can continue production
indefinitely across the expanding line. And they can drop products at
the low end (or elsewhere) if the customers tell them to.

Tom

On 08/11/2023 04:04, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 11/7/23 4:26 PM, druck wrote:
>> On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>    PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
>>>    and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
>>>    a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
>>>    and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
>>>    and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
>>>    some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
>>>    and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
>>>    but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.
>>
>> NUCs cost vastly more.
>
>  But not :
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3
>
>   Face it, Pi5 + 'SD' power supply + case & wires ... these
>   "bee" units are VERY competitive.
>
>> Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They
>> aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B
>> 1/2/4/8GB are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a
>> range of machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.
>
>   Can't buy rPi 1s anymore. There are a few 2s still out
>   there, but for how long ? Those ARE useful - retooled
>   one into good service last week. JUST strong enough.
>
There is the pi zero instead.

>   The good bit is that they've managed to keep updated OSs
>   that'll still run on the old units - I know, I have a Pi-1b,
>   the kind with fewer GPIO pins, that's still been doing its
>   ONE simple thing for a LONG time. Still ran on basically the
>   original Raspbian.  Recently updated to Bullseye - and it
>   all still worked. Should be good for another decade. Not
>   actively networked so 'security' is not a prob. Amazed the
>   SD card worked for basically a decade though ....
>
>   (now use Samsung 'Endurance' SD cards ... and I think
>   they've just come out with something that'll allegedly
>   survive two or three times as many cycles)
>
>   I love "long-term support" - be it hardware or software.
>   If I'm gonna DO something complicated I want it to LAST.
>
If it works now, simply never update it. There are stil lab instruments
running on MSDOS

>   Built a bunch of embedded devices on 'Rabbits' and the
>   company *assured* they'd still make that model for a
>   decade. They lied. The "New and Better" had wiring SO
>   small mere humans couldn't DEAL. Now my previous embedded
>   device was based on an 8051 clone with a 'battery' of
>   some kind in the fat case to keep NV RAM alive. THEY
>   kept selling THOSE for a good decade ... even kept using
>   a rec I'd mailed them. Had a good 'BASIC' compiler too.
>   Amazing what you can do with 32kb if you have a good
>   tight compiler ...

The world is what it is. Stuff will be produced for two reasons - if it
makes a profit or if the government subsidises it.

The rest of the assurances are as empty as a politician's promise.

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

On 08/11/2023 04:04, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 11/7/23 4:26 PM, druck wrote:
>> On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
>>> and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
>>> a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
>>> and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
>>> and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
>>> some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
>>> and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
>>> but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.
>>
>> NUCs cost vastly more.
>
> But not :
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3
>
>
> Face it, Pi5 + 'SD' power supply + case & wires ... these
> "bee" units are VERY competitive.
>
>> Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They
>> aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B
>> 1/2/4/8GB are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a
>> range of machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.
>
> Can't buy rPi 1s anymore. There are a few 2s still out
> there, but for how long ? Those ARE useful - retooled
> one into good service last week. JUST strong enough.

I've just bought a B+, new, in box, for £10.00 off eBay, to test
Bookworm. Only problem was to get USB WiFi dongle working. Hey-ho!
Bookworm 'seems' faster than Bullseye or Buster.

>
> The good bit is that they've managed to keep updated OSs
> that'll still run on the old units - I know, I have a Pi-1b,
> the kind with fewer GPIO pins, that's still been doing its
> ONE simple thing for a LONG time. Still ran on basically the
> original Raspbian. Recently updated to Bullseye - and it
> all still worked. Should be good for another decade. Not
> actively networked so 'security' is not a prob. Amazed the
> SD card worked for basically a decade though ....
>
> (now use Samsung 'Endurance' SD cards ... and I think
> they've just come out with something that'll allegedly
> survive two or three times as many cycles)
>
> I love "long-term support" - be it hardware or software.
> If I'm gonna DO something complicated I want it to LAST.
>
> Built a bunch of embedded devices on 'Rabbits' and the
> company *assured* they'd still make that model for a
> decade. They lied. The "New and Better" had wiring SO
> small mere humans couldn't DEAL. Now my previous embedded
> device was based on an 8051 clone with a 'battery' of
> some kind in the fat case to keep NV RAM alive. THEY
> kept selling THOSE for a good decade ... even kept using
> a rec I'd mailed them. Had a good 'BASIC' compiler too.
> Amazing what you can do with 32kb if you have a good
> tight compiler ...

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT CONDUCT MY OWN FIRE DRILLS

On 11/8/23 4:14 AM, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> On 08/11/2023 04:04, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> On 11/7/23 4:26 PM, druck wrote:
>>> On 07/11/2023 06:35, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>>    PIs were meant to fit a *niche* between microcontrollers
>>>>    and "real PCs" ... and IMHO they oughtta stay there. It's
>>>>    a valuable niche. Anything much more than a Pi4 or Pi5
>>>>    and you may as well just buy a low-end mini PC or use
>>>>    and old Win laptop. There are 'NUC's these days, and
>>>>    some newer "Bee"-somethings, that are reasonably small
>>>>    and 'inexpensive'. Could probably run Linux on some,
>>>>    but the Pi and Linux go together much more logically.
>>>
>>> NUCs cost vastly more.
>>
>>   But not :
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Desktop-Computer-Support-Ethernet/dp/B0BVLS7ZHP/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=beelink+pc&qid=1699414262&s=electronics&sr=1-3
>>
>>
>>    Face it, Pi5 + 'SD' power supply + case & wires ... these
>>    "bee" units are VERY competitive.
>>
>>> Why should Raspberry Pi not produce more powerful machines? They
>>> aren't abandoning the lower end machines, the Pico, Zero 2W, 3A+, 4B
>>> 1/2/4/8GB are still being sold, so along with the Pi 5 there is a
>>> range of machines covering a vast number of use cases and budgets.
>>
>>    Can't buy rPi 1s anymore. There are a few 2s still out
>>    there, but for how long ? Those ARE useful - retooled
>>    one into good service last week. JUST strong enough.
>
> I've just bought a B+, new, in box, for £10.00 off eBay, to test
> Bookworm. Only problem was to get USB WiFi dongle working. Hey-ho!
> Bookworm 'seems' faster than Bullseye or Buster.

I put "Motion" and a webcam on mine ... now it's
an IP security cam.

Got a couple others, Pi-1s, doing other simple stuff.

Still working on the vid 'latency' issues though ...
everybody wants to use big video buffers. OpenCV
seems the worst - you can get 60 sec delays on rtsp
feeds, and very limited ways to deal with that short
of custom mod/recompile.

Anyway, old PI's *can* still serve. Not the latest
or fastest but oft ADEQUATE and now very CHEAP.

Pi's fill a valuable niche between microcontrollers
and 'real PCs'. So long as the makers remember that
we're all good.

On 11/8/23 1:42 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/11/2023 03:32, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> The "credit-card" profile of the PIs has always been
>>    a big plus. The (relatively) low power required has
>>    also been a plus. The low(er) PRICE has always been
>>    a plus. As I said, they fill a *niche* quite nicely.
>>
>>    But their AMBITIONS seem to aim towards leaving that
>>    safe and useful niche ...... and it'll kill them.
>
> Not really. If they are competitive they will win, If not, they wont.

But they are no longer so "competitive" in that area.
Look up "BeeLink" units. The lower end ARE pretty
competitive with Pi5 fer sure, and WILL run full
Winders if you're stupid enough to use it.

> Stop thinking in ideological terms and look to why people buy what they
> buy.

They want stuff that WORKS for whatever their needs
and is also SMALL and CHEAP.

Pi5 maybe fills that need, but so do competitors now.

If PI tries to compete with laptops from a few years
ago then it'll LOSE. No POINT.

> If someone brought out a PI that costs the same as an intel MoBo, and
> was inferior in performance, no one would buy it.

If someone builds a PI that is as expensive/capable as
an old laptop, for more money, then doom ....

> If they brought out  a PICO that cost more than an equivalent Arduino,
> no one would buy it,

Microcontrollers are a completely different area.
PICOs and competitors are ROUGHLY of equal price
and performance. This makes the PICO a competitor,
but not a clear dominator. Ards DO still have a
clear place in the world ... and some of the more
recent dual-processor ones ARE very interesting.
However if you need micro-power, solar perhaps the
older 8-bit Ards still prevail, and there's endless
libs/examples to use.