Reset vs apply updates

A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated
since November. It has reached the point the computer is nearly
unusable. You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are
able. I have been volunteered to fix it.

Personally I upgrade the software when the update comes out so have
never had to work through this bad of situation.

The obvious solution is to apply each upgrade.

However if I Reset the the OS keeping the user data and programs, will
it reinstall with all of the current updates?

(Wiping the disk or any method that destroys the data and programs, is
unacceptable, as I have no idea of how much data is on the computer.)

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:32:28 -0400, knuttle
<keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Reset vs apply updates
>
>A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated
>since November. It has reached the point the computer is nearly
>unusable.

I'm surprised at that. Even though I tried many times, my win10 Pro
computer would not update for 2 years or more, ending about 4 months
ago**, and yet it still worked fine. My only complaint was that it did
not update.

maybe there is some other, specific problem that is making it nearly
unusable. Bear in mind that I'm no windows guru.

**there is a thread here from a year or more ago where people suggested
ways to update, and a thread from about 4 months ago about how I finally
did it. I'll try to find them.

> You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are
>able. I have been volunteered to fix it.
>
>Personally I upgrade the software when the update comes out so have
>never had to work through this bad of situation.
>
>The obvious solution is to apply each upgrade.
>
>However if I Reset the the OS keeping the user data and programs, will

My understanding is that it keeps user data and programs but not
miscellaneous little settings that the user has put in over the years.
Things that for me would be especially hard to realize I don't have
anymore and which took asking questions here to get right in the first
place. OTOH, your friend doesn't sound like the kind who makes many
such changes

>it reinstall with all of the current updates?

There are lots of ways to update short of wiping the disk.

>
>(Wiping the disk or any method that destroys the data and programs, is
>unacceptable, as I have no idea of how much data is on the computer.)

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:32:28 -0400, knuttle
<keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Reset vs apply updates
>
>A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated
>since November. It has reached the point the computer is nearly
>unusable. You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are
>able. I have been volunteered to fix it.
>
>Personally I upgrade the software when the update comes out so have
>never had to work through this bad of situation.
>
>The obvious solution is to apply each upgrade.

Yes, so why not do that. Go into settings, Updates and Security, and do
Windows Updates. It will do thilngs in the right order and it will only
have to restart the computer, once or twice, maybe 3 times, but you
don't have to do anything once you start it off. Has that been turned
off, or has it been tried and failed?

Why is it you don't want to do that?
>
>However if I Reset the the OS keeping the user data and programs, will
>it reinstall with all of the current updates?
>
I'd certainly prefer the method above, which is what MS intends, to
resetting it, which is for some sort of emergency or unsolvable problem.
>
>(Wiping the disk or any method that destroys the data and programs, is
>unacceptable, as I have no idea of how much data is on the computer.)

knuttle wrote on 4/3/24 7:32 PM:
> Reset vs apply updates
>
> A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated since
> November.  It has reached the point the computer is nearly unusable. You
> know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are able. I have
> been volunteered to fix it.
>
> Personally I upgrade the software when the update comes out so have never
> had to work through this bad of situation.
>
> The obvious solution is to apply each upgrade.
>
> However if I Reset the the OS keeping the user data and programs, will it
> reinstall with all of the current updates?
>
>
> (Wiping the disk or any method that destroys the data and programs, is
> unacceptable, as I have no idea of how much data is on the computer.)
At this stage, not enough information for anyone to provide a solution
for updating or the need or impact of resetting.

What you really need to do, once you have access to machine is to
methodically step through the troubleshooting process.

1. Run the Windows Update troubleshooter

2. Run Windows Update(Updates are cumulative, thus the latest or
previously pre-requisite for later updates) will try to install.
If it fails...write down the error provided by Windows Update and report
the full error number(in a reply).
3. In an admin command prompt run the following two commands(you can copy
and paste them in the command window or type them in manually, run the
first to completion, then the second.)

DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /CheckHealth
DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /ScanHealth

The first will perform a quick scan to determine if the image's
component store is corrupted. This is a check, it does not perform any
repair.

The second will perform a more advanced scan(do not interrupt) to find
out if the Windows image on the device has nay issues and determine if
the image is healthy, repairable or non-repairable. Also a check, not a
repair.

If the above commands indicate there are problems with the device's
system image then return to the admin command prompt and use the
following DISM command. Do not interrupt.

DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth

The RestoreHealth will connect to Windows Update servers to download and
replace damaged files(as necessary).

Again, report the results in a reply.

Some might suggest, running sfc scannow - imo, avoid following that
advice until you know and report the the results of 1, 2, and 3.
i.e. Windows Update troubleshooter indicates or does not indicate
problem and fixes or doesn't fix anything. The corruption status of the
image, and the repair status of the image.

Report what you find, those results determine the next steps.
- analyze the component store, clean up the component store
- Disk Cleanup in admin mode
- Running Windows Update
- the status of the Windows Recovery partition.

Be patient, and methodically use the tools available in Win10 to
determine status. That status determines the next direction.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 4/3/2024 10:32 PM, knuttle wrote:
> Reset vs apply updates
>
> A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated since November.  It has reached the point the computer is nearly unusable. You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are able. I have been volunteered to fix it.
>
> Personally I upgrade the software when the update comes out so have never had to work through this bad of situation.
>
> The obvious solution is to apply each upgrade.
>
> However if I Reset the the OS keeping the user data and programs, will it reinstall with all of the current updates?
>
>
> (Wiping the disk or any method that destroys the data and programs, is unacceptable, as I have no idea of how much data is on the computer.)

On my Optiplex 780 (currently an E8400 Core2Duo processor),
the Win10 21H2 would install, but it could not be upgraded
to Win10 22H2. The reason, was the graphics in the chipset
were too old (Q45 Northbridge). Once I installed a HD6450
video card from the junk room, it would take version 22H2
just fine. The machine did not "lament" on the screen about
the graphics, it just silently rolled back and "gave me the finger".
I was forced to guess at why it was rolling back.

This is one of the reasons I would budget four hours for this
project. You have to plan for the unexpected.

When a person like yourself is offering to help someone, this
is your worst nightmare. Blindsided by something you weren't
expecting. A similar blindsiding occurs, when the hard drive
is sick, and the Upgrade kills it :-)

Any project starts with planning. That's looking
over the machine, to see if the process will be straight
forward, or it's going to be a chore.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/mgH8L6ZQ/machine-details.gif

Using winver.exe, I would determine the existing version details.

For example, a build of 19045 tells me the machine has been
well maintained, and a Repair Install might not be needed.
Then, a Repair Install would be driven by symptoms (user
has malware perhaps).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_version_history

If the machine is several revisions behind (18363), then
it has not received patches for a while, and is out of support.
Whether you use a Win10 21H2 or a Win10 22H2 DVD, depends
on whether the graphics drivers have poor support (like
my Optiplex 780 and its *XDDM* driver). On a laptop,
typically the graphics do not unplug, so you can't fix
stale hardware in that case. And then your tool of
choice might be the Win10 21H2 DVD.

If you go from 18363 to 19044 or from 18363 to 19045,
you will suddenly receive Patches to go with your
Repair install. That is why you're trying to get it
to 19045, so it will be brought back into support
and the machine will get Patch Tuesday again.
If the machine will only accept 19044, that's like
Last Rites time, as 19044 has stopped receiving Updates.
But, it's the best you can do for a laptop in that
situation (old graphics).

To Repair install, boot the machine, insert the DVD,
run Setup.exe off the Win10 installer DVD.

There should be sufficient space on C: for the
C:\Windows.old folder and it will contain at least
20GB of stuff. The machine will silently do things,
to deal with a shortage of disk space, and again,
you'd need to know some details about how easy
it would be to make room, to do the best job of
the install. Since it's a laptop, you can't really
afford to turn off Hibernation like I can do on a
Desktop machine. An installer could "ask for 85GB"
for example, and then you have to decide how to
handle that request.

There are other things you can do to help the machine,
such as deleting the contents of LCU, then doing a
defragmentation, but that depends on how much time
you have to spare.

When you install 22H2 as a Repair install, the machine
will install more than one Cumulative. Don't forget to
reboot the machine when the machine asks, as it may
have more updates pending in Windows Update when it
comes back up. It's like flushing a broken toilet...
reboot reboot reboot :-) After all the WU ceremony is
finished, you can start with your cleanup activity.

But don't be surprised if this takes four hours.
If the machine has a hard drive, that's part of the
speed issue. If it has a lot of installed programs,
the Migration phase could take one hour.

Paul

knuttle wrote:
> Reset vs apply updates
>
> A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated
> since November.  It has reached the point the computer is nearly
> unusable. You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are
> able. I have been volunteered to fix it.
>

If you don't have the knowledge to fix it yourself, then you should decline.

Find somebody that knows about computers and get them to do it
properly. Others who have responded to this post clearly know more than
you - perhaps one of them lives nearby?

Volunteers have their place in society, but inexpert people trying to
fix computers is not one of those places.

--
Graham J

In article <uul3ft$d6r2$1@dont-email.me>, knuttle wrote...
> A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated
> since November. It has reached the point the computer is nearly
> unusable. You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are
> able. I have been volunteered to fix it.
>
>

I'd be focused on why it's nearly unusable. November's not that long ago, and
a computer should work just fine without more recent updates (just be a little
less secure). So what's causing the problem?

Does it have enough memory? (Settings, search "About")

Is the disk healthy? (Download the free version of something like Passmark or
HDTune and run a scan.)

Is the disk full?

Is the file system corrupted? (Disk properties, Tools, run "Check")

Is the CPU maxed-out? (Virus?)

Are system files corrupted? (https://www.howtogeek.com/222532/how-to-repair-
corrupted-windows-system-files-with-the-sfc-and-dism-commands/)

Failing those, describe "unusable"...

--

Phil, London

On 04/04/2024 5:11 AM, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> In article <uul3ft$d6r2$1@dont-email.me>, knuttle wrote...
>> A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated
>> since November. It has reached the point the computer is nearly
>> unusable. You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are
>> able. I have been volunteered to fix it.
>>
>>
>
> I'd be focused on why it's nearly unusable. November's not that long ago, and
> a computer should work just fine without more recent updates (just be a little
> less secure). So what's causing the problem?
>
> Does it have enough memory? (Settings, search "About")
>
> Is the disk healthy? (Download the free version of something like Passmark or
> HDTune and run a scan.)
>
> Is the disk full?
>
> Is the file system corrupted? (Disk properties, Tools, run "Check")
>
> Is the CPU maxed-out? (Virus?)
>
> Are system files corrupted? (https://www.howtogeek.com/222532/how-to-repair-
> corrupted-windows-system-files-with-the-sfc-and-dism-commands/)
>
> Failing those, describe "unusable"...
>
OP: As said the person who uses the computer probably never turned it
on in that period, as they think a cellphone is the ultimate in computing.

I do not have the computer yet, but from telephone and texting I suspect
that it is not only the OS that needs updating, but MS Word and possibly
one or two other programs.

SO, I am going to get the computer and jump through the update/upgrade
hoops necessary to get it running correctly; even it takes days.

I was hoping that for a simple solution.

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 08:10:48 -0400, knuttle
<keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>OP: As said the person who uses the computer probably never turned it
>on in that period, as they think a cellphone is the ultimate in computing.

Amazing. I take my laptop when I go away for more than 2 or 3 days, but
on my last trip, I had no space to use it and I used the phone for 6
days It was terrible. It's like trying to build a garage when tied to a
chair. When one arm is tied to one arm of the chair.

On 04/04/2024 10:59 AM, micky wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 08:10:48 -0400, knuttle
> <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> OP: As said the person who uses the computer probably never turned it
>> on in that period, as they think a cellphone is the ultimate in computing.
>
> Amazing. I take my laptop when I go away for more than 2 or 3 days, but
> on my last trip, I had no space to use it and I used the phone for 6
> days It was terrible. It's like trying to build a garage when tied to a
> chair. When one arm is tied to one arm of the chair.

OP My feeling precisely!

I privately chuckle as they repeat a dozen times Siri "I want a pig",
and Siri does not recognize what they want.

knuttle wrote on 4/4/24 5:10 AM:
> On 04/04/2024 5:11 AM, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>> In article <uul3ft$d6r2$1@dont-email.me>, knuttle wrote...
>>> A co volunteer at church, has a computer, that has not been updated
>>> since November.  It has reached the point the computer is nearly
>>> unusable. You know the MS thing, you can continue to use it if you are
>>> able. I have been volunteered to fix it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'd be focused on why it's nearly unusable.  November's not that long
>> ago, and
>> a computer should work just fine without more recent updates (just be a
>> little
>> less secure).  So what's causing the problem?
>>
>> Does it have enough memory?  (Settings, search "About")
>>
>> Is the disk healthy?  (Download the free version of something like
>> Passmark or
>> HDTune and run a scan.)
>>
>> Is the disk full?
>>
>> Is the file system corrupted?  (Disk properties, Tools, run "Check")
>>
>> Is the CPU maxed-out?  (Virus?)
>>
>> Are system files corrupted?
>> (https://www.howtogeek.com/222532/how-to-repair-
>> corrupted-windows-system-files-with-the-sfc-and-dism-commands/)
>>
>> Failing those, describe "unusable"...
>>
> OP:  As said the person who uses the computer probably never turned it on
> in that period, as they think a cellphone is the  ultimate in computing.
>
> I do not have the computer yet, but from telephone and texting I suspect
> that it is not only the OS that needs updating, but MS Word and possibly
> one or two other programs.
>
> SO, I am going to get the computer and jump through the update/upgrade
> hoops necessary to get it running correctly; even it takes days.
>
> I was hoping that for a simple solution.

It's never really simple until sufficient information is available.
For the device
- Determine what 'nearly unusable' really means(unclear if those were
the owner's words or your description of the owner's input...either way,
until known it's too global to ascertain the real condition.

- Forget about all the other hardware(CPU and RAM) - it probably worked
fine at one time with that hardware. Disk wise - the Health of the HDD
can be checked, but free space is probably more important.

- Do use those Windows tools(Windows Update Troubleshooter and DISM
noted in my Apr 3 reply) to verify the integrity of Windows Update
engine, the o/s image and component store.

- Do note, that running Windows updates(after determining or fixing
issues found in the WU Troubleshooter and DISM image status) that Windows
updates are cumulative.
=> b/c of the cumulative nature, its likely the Jan. 2024 update will
come into play. That update is unique since it also includes(the third
since June 2023, second since Nov 2023) an update as SafeOS patch for the
Windows Recovery[WinRE] partition which has its own specific
requirements(free space in the Windows Recovery partition)
- without 250 MB free space in the Windows Recovery partition the
update has already failed on uncountable devices across the Enterprise,
Business, SMB, Edu, and Consumer Windows 10 devices with the following error
0x80070643 - ERROR_INSTALL_FAILURE
- i.e. fixing the reason for the November update may not be the only
'fixing' necessary to update Windows to current status.

To sort things out your diagnostic skills and other methods will probably
be necessary.
e.g.
For the WinRE partition, it's Active/Enabled status and free space
To find that info, use Powershell in admin mode
Reagentc /info
- provides the status, hard disk #, partition #
Get-Volume
- provides the free space in the WinRE partition

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| The machine did not "lament" on the screen about
| the graphics, it just silently rolled back and "gave me the finger".

You have such stormy, passionate relationships with
your hardware. :)

On 4/4/2024 5:40 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
>
> | The machine did not "lament" on the screen about
> | the graphics, it just silently rolled back and "gave me the finger".
>
> You have such stormy, passionate relationships with
> your hardware. :)

Well, when a machine silently does not do what you expected,
you need the flowery language to hide your disgust.

I didn't know what was wrong. I could tell from the delay
(I've had rollbacks before), that "things were not going my way".
I did not manage to find a log entry that said
"hey, did you know your graphics card sucks ?".

Just on a hunch, I "fed it some kibble", and it was a "good boy".

Paul